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481  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Why the Bitcoin rules can't change (reading time ~5min) on: February 20, 2013, 07:27:25 PM
I'm confused about what you are arguing. You want everyone to be able to always run a full node, correct?

Wrong. I want me to be able to validate the rules I consented to are followed and right now that means running a full node, I don't care about anybody else or how that is achieved.

Which includes a 1Mb block size limit?

Given the arguments on both sides that I have heard, yes.
482  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Why the Bitcoin rules can't change (reading time ~5min) on: February 20, 2013, 07:23:24 PM
I'm confused about what you are arguing. You want everyone to be able to always run a full node, correct?

Wrong. I want me to be able to validate the rules I consented to are followed and right now that means running a full node, I don't care about anybody else or how that is achieved.
483  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Why the Bitcoin rules can't change (reading time ~5min) on: February 20, 2013, 07:21:29 PM
That can't be a solution.

It may not be and it may be that this is a design flaw in Bitcoin. But if a solution is found it will have to be one where there is no compromise on me being able to validate the rules used. If Bitcoin can't achieve that then I have no use for it.
484  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Why the Bitcoin rules can't change (reading time ~5min) on: February 20, 2013, 07:16:53 PM
I understand the importance of running full nodes (I run 3 of them on dedicated servers).
But without incentives, total number of nodes will decay over time.
Besides the common benefit, any idea on how to make it more attractive going full ?

The attractiveness is that you remain a sovereign in Bitcoin i.e. the pay off isn't material but of a different kind of value. I run it because this way I can ensure that the rules that govern my wealth are those that I agree with and that's enough of an inventive for me.
485  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Why the Bitcoin rules can't change (reading time ~5min) on: February 20, 2013, 07:15:26 PM
The client in it's current state is not a viable option for most people to run as a node in the not too far future. Both bandwidth and space issues will only intensify with further acceptance of Bitcoin. Thus either the client has to change with all that entails (such as developer decided rules changes) or more and more people will have to stop running a full node, when it's no longer viable for them.

How so? I have a laptop with 1TB space, and the block size limit means there's max 55GB that can be added in a year on avg, so how could I not run a full node for at least 5 more years when I'm sure I'm going to upgrade my laptop by then and have even more disk space available?

You're priviledged in your space and bandwith capacity. What about those not so lucky? Those on volume capped lines? What about Africa, where most people outside of major cities still connect via 56k dial-up if even?

Then those who can't afford to run a full node right now are must understand that they are using Bitcoin without their explicit consent to what rules Bitcoin functions under. That their wealth is in the hands of those who can.
486  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Why the Bitcoin rules can't change (reading time ~5min) on: February 20, 2013, 06:58:51 PM
The client in it's current state is not a viable option for most people to run as a node in the not too far future. Both bandwidth and space issues will only intensify with further acceptance of Bitcoin. Thus either the client has to change with all that entails (such as developer decided rules changes) or more and more people will have to stop running a full node, when it's no longer viable for them.

How so? I have a laptop with 1TB space, and the block size limit means there's max 55GB that can be added in a year on avg, so how could I not run a full node for at least 5 more years when I'm sure I'm going to upgrade my laptop by then and have even more disk space available?
487  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Why the Bitcoin rules can't change (reading time ~5min) on: February 20, 2013, 06:47:13 PM
Well the title is a lie. Of course they can change and they already have changed in the past. But if this is bad news to you and you were lead to believe something else, don't fret, it's not all bad. Here, let me try and give you the bigger picture about rules in Bitcoin and who it is that you need to trust that they won't change to something you won't like.

First there's a myths that I want to address. I also want to make sure the community pays attention to this issue. Because as Ben Franklin told a woman the Americans got a republic if they can keep it (turns out they couldn't) so too I'm here to tell you that you have an excellent money system on your hands, if you can keep it.

Myth: Miners set the rules by voting

False. Miners do not vote, they validate. They check that transactions meet the rules and then they add them into a block and add it to the blockchain. If a subset of miners decide that a certain rule should be changed what happens ISN'T that all miners now validate transactions according to the new rule even if the subset has the majority of hashing power, instead a so called hard fork happens and some miners validate transactions that obey the new rules and those who stick with the old rules ignore them and by virtue of ignoring each other they split into two peer to peer networks.

But what if all miners suddenly switch to new rules? Can they do this? Is there something that stops them? Answer: YES, EVERY NON MINING FULL NODE

I mean this is critical for every Bitcoin user to understand. Bitcoin is a decentralized system, in which if you run a full node YOU HAVE A SAY in what rules are to be followed. Because once the miner adds a new block they send it around across the network and when it gets to you, your client also validates. It validates that the miner validated the transactions and added them into a block and into the blockchain following the right rules, rules that you gave your EXPLICIT consent to when you downloaded the Satoshi client. If all of the sudden all miners started validating according to some new rules, your client is coded to simply ignore them and as soon as just 1 miner following rules your client accepts as valid shows up, the network can continue to operate under these same rules.

The ONLY way for rules to ever change for you is if YOU PERSONALLY download a new client version with new rules. I cannot stress enough how important this is. This so important that it should be paramount for anyone who has any significant wealth in Bitcoin to run your own full node regardless of the costs that brings to you. I myself do it too even though I don't even use the client for anything else.

Now this doesn't mean you should never accept new rules in a new client. In fact you already did because those new rules solved a technical problem. But if you want to keep the Bitcoin money system running under the principles that it is built upon today (FINITENESS, TANGIBILITY, TRANSPARENCY, ANONYMITY, SECURITY, DECENTRALIZATION, SELF-OWNERSHIP, INTEGRITY, PRACTICALITY, RATIONALISM) it is paramount that any such rule changes do not immediately or down road preclude you from being able to run a full node. Because if you can't run a full node and you trust someone else to do it for you, then you have effectively given away your power to have say about what rules Bitcoin follows.

Right now you are a sovereign in Bitcoin. You should never give that up, under any circumstance.

What do I mean with sovereign? Well there's nothing anyone could possibly do that can make you accept rules you didn't agree with. Nothing. You yourself have to decide to consent to a rule change. But if running a full node becomes impossible for you then all that which you were told about Bitcoin, that rules virtually can't change, that it has a strict limit of 21million, ect, all these rules will then be left to be decided by a small number of super nodes and the people who control them. The second this becomes reality Bitcoin will be no different than simply a slightly more transparent Paypal. And if you don't want that you better make damn sure you can run a full node.
488  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer - MtGoxUSD wall movement tracker on: February 20, 2013, 05:45:44 PM

$30
489  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The fork on: February 20, 2013, 02:16:54 PM
or by doing a completely made up activity that has no purpose outside the oligopoly. (mining)

Don't forget: (mining or by maintain a full node, even if not mining)
490  Economy / Economics / Re: Make-Your-Own-Country (Seasteading)? Use custom cryptos on: February 20, 2013, 02:00:47 PM
Patri Friedman's idea has a huge flaw that turned me off and should turn you off as well.

The flaw is that his idea relies on hope, the hope that governments around the world wont see a seastead as something hostile to them and just flat out destroy it. It's the reason why although you'd have more freedom, the idea says that you couldn't trade or own weapons, that you would still have to follow money laundering laws, that you couldn't trade "illicit" goods, ect ect all for the purpose of not pissing of governments so they don't come and destroy it.

Well if I was ever going to make the unbelievable sacrifice and live in the middle of the ocean I damn well want the complete package of freedom otherwise it's just not worth it. And this is the reason I completely abandoned this idea.


Plus I can live in my home, where I am right now, hold my wealth in bitcoins and not give a shit about any financial or tax laws. I'm not saying that I do this (wink wink government agent reading this) but I'm saying I have that option. So I really don't know what more I'd get living on a boat in the middle of the ocean.
491  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: 1 BTC has now reached parity with 1 Silver oz on: February 20, 2013, 11:18:41 AM
I wonder how many hardcore goldbugs will completely dismiss this.  Roll Eyes

Hardcore goldbugs don't own silver Wink

I do.  And I'm still up more in silver than in Bitcoin.  But getting pretty close, and if I count all of my Ag purchases (which is only fair) I am pretty sure that I am actually doing better in Bitcoin than silver at this point.

You are not what I consider a hardcore goldbug otherwise you wouldn't be willing to own bitcoins.
492  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin-Qt / bitcoind version 0.8.0 released on: February 19, 2013, 11:56:00 PM

If I have the release candidate installed should I update it as well? Is there a difference to the actual release?
493  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: How a floating blocksize limit inevitably leads towards centralization on: February 19, 2013, 11:28:10 PM
I find the need to rely on centralized services more to send small transactions, as a much more unlikeable scenario than letting the requirements for running a full Bitcoin node or a mining node increase, and let Bitcoin continue to support small transactions. There might be a fundamental vision conflict regarding this issue but we'll see how it goes. This issue should be one of the priorities for the dev team for sure.

Thing is, with centralized services handling small transactions we most certainly face a much higher degree of centralization than if we raise the block size limit. Based on the calculations in this thread running nodes would still be within reach for dedicated hobbyists - NOT super computer level like some FUD-spreading people are trying to imply.

Not raising the limit could lead to a situation where Coinbase literally becomes the new PayPal, and nothing has changed. Currently everyone has the freedom to use the blockchain directly which is sensorship free.

It seems you have two choices:

a) A money system which allows you to validate the rules it functions under but at the same time eventually likely forces you to use a business for your day to day transactions, however again you yourself can easily audit this business at any time and make sure they aren't doing anything you didn't agree with when you signed up for their services

b) A mere payment system, similar to paypal, that eventually you will have no power to validate is following the rules you agreed to when you started using it


Which will it be?
494  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The fork on: February 19, 2013, 08:07:23 PM
They essentially have the greatest voting power.

You are wrong. There is no voting in Bitcoin. Miners validate.

If mining is not voting essentially then what's to fear from the centralization of miners?

Regular users by downloading the blockcain validate what miners validated. I'm sure you can imagine how losing the ability to validating what miners validate could pose a problem..
495  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: 1 BTC has now reached parity with 1 Silver oz on: February 19, 2013, 07:58:50 PM
I wonder how many hardcore goldbugs will completely dismiss this.  Roll Eyes
496  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The fork on: February 19, 2013, 07:56:05 PM
They essentially have the greatest voting power.

You are wrong. There is no voting in Bitcoin. Miners validate.
497  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The fork on: February 19, 2013, 07:24:05 PM
I'm kind of wondering if there isn't some word fetishism going on here.

"Bitcoin" can be defined as the original protocol. "Bitcoin" can also be defined as the system (all the nodes and people, exchanges, users, etc.) we hope will change the world. Right now those two things so close to the same that there is often little point in distinguishing them here. However, if a hard fork happened and the Bitcoin-the-system stopped using Bitcoin-the-original-protocol, we'd need to be more careful with our words or else we'd risk getting confused.

So when you say, "I like Bitcoin," do you mean - must you mean - the original protocol, or could you mean the entire system with all wills of all the people that constitute it? I feel like I'm for the latter.

Besides, Satoshi just created Bitcoin with the original "legislated" rules, and people adopted it because they liked the rules. People didn't adopt other systems that had different rules. I don't see why there is a reason to feel new "legislation" (not legislation, since it's voluntary) but not to fear the original Satoshi legislation.

I look at the original rules as a contract I gave my consent to enter into and I don't want my contract to change without my consent nor was I lead to believe it could change and it can't. That's all there is too it.

I may consent to a change of the contract by downloading a new version of the client but it cannot be a change that would jeopardize one of the principles I have identified Bitcoin is built upon. But that's me. You do with your "contract" as you will.
498  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: How a floating blocksize limit inevitably leads towards centralization on: February 19, 2013, 07:12:35 PM
We seem to have oodles of spare space currently

The problem is the rate of adoption likely isn't linear but exponential meaning it just seems we have "oodles" of spare space. This could change quite fast.

Competing centralised services built atop of Bitcoin to cater for micro payments will not only be more efficient and cheaper ...

These services do not exist yet. It is the root of the problem because the 1Mb limit will cripple bitcoin (later this year) before such services can take over micro-transactions (several years away). The limit needs to be flexible enough to allow bitcoin to work as it does now, until/if synergistic competing services develop on their own merits.

They don't? Users of mtgox can send each other bitcoins off blockchain, so can users of most other exchanges, hell Coinbase is even built with this being it's primary goal..
499  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer - MtGoxUSD wall movement tracker on: February 19, 2013, 07:05:12 PM
I will WIN my bet!

that is all.

Btw if you happen to lose it I'll pay out as soon as that happens. Do you object to that?
500  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The fork on: February 19, 2013, 06:59:30 PM
My general impression on this issue is that it's socialists vs. libertarians, or central planners vs. people who believe in spontaneous order. Is there more to it? Because I get that familiar feeling of watching people who are generally bamboozled by the free market getting all worried about how stuff will pan out without some kind of hard control in place. This is just a cursory impression, though. Any statists or anti-statists care to comment on that angle?

This is kind of confusing, though, because I know for example hazek is probably a voluntarist, but he seems to take the opposition position from what I'd expect due to centralization concerns. Perhaps the debate is more about what really constitutes centralization, or a kind of centralization to be feared or that inhibits natural order. Generally centralization is "always bad," but we may need a clearer definition of centralization to get to the bottom of this.

You don't understand. I use Bitcoin because it is built upon certain principles and built in such a way that those principles can't be "legislated" away with a rule change. If this isn't the case I have no use for Bitcoin.
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