Just thought of this too...

Lets say you have a fund of 10,000 BTC and 10,000,000 AIR... and you are regulating the market... (so to speak)...

Now I know this, and want to cash-out... and just take your BTC. I only have to come and start cashing-out, until your traders dive-in and start feeding me high-value cash-outs of BTC. Same respect on the other end... If I want all your AIR cheap, I just got to start feeding you BTC, and your traders come and "regulate", feeding me nice low valued AIR in bulk... Then I just slowly pump the market with a few coins, and get above your trade-regulation limit, and dump the same way. (Replace me with you or with "your traders", and you have some laundering happening.)

Now... For those trying to "gain"... when you see the price "too high" in your opinion... instead of "us" getting it, you come take that pump-value. Then pour it back into the market when "we" might otherwise be getting our discount coin orders filled... justifying it as "balance", by taking those orders over ours.

Using our coins, does not add value to our coins. That only removes value. Even if you are using our coins to buy BTC, because that BTC value now goes back to the coins you just devalued. Still not seeing how "the coin" itself, would make the difference. I can see how it spreads "poor trading loss" across the majority holders. But that is already done by the exchange, without any intervention. (Just more added expense to pay for, which only decreases value further.)

I was actually serious... but also being funny about it.

WARNING: TLDR below!

Honestly, I don't like premines at all. Or insta-mines. This is my (Opinion), both in positive and negative, for that reason.

1: The coins in hand, are held by (some guy/entity), beyond our say of where they get spent.
2: It is impossible to provide real proof of payment, when paying-off ghost-services (self), or rewarding (self) for legitimate services.
3: The money (value) that person is spending, is ours, not his. He is giving away our BTC/USD value, which is cashed-out on our previously deposited value. Taking potential earnings from us.
4: Takes no effort to give away a thousand or a million, of our future value. Not willing to spend his own earnings on the expenses himself. (or entity)
5: The premine/insta-mine will not be nullified until at-least an equal amount has been mined. Thusly, rewarding the person who "cashes-out" fastest, the most. Turning the average "value" of the mined coins of equal volume, by 50%, before it is even mined.
6: Abandonment... Dev walks away, still has funds, does not pass-on to new devs, or the community... cashes-in upon exit. Makes a new coin, repeats...
7: 0.25% of the 1000-year/100-year life... Not sure what entitles anyone to that massive volume. Not even a developer. (or entity)
8: Morale untrust, from day one. Continues into week one, month one, year one... Five years from now, if all those coins are cashed-out, that would appease some, but lingering untrust continues for years later. (Look at ________ coin.) Insert name of premined/insta-mined coin. Why do they keep mining it... in hopes of being on the peak of a big pump, before the dumps that always follow.
9: Seriousness... Serious investors actually invest their own money. Getting serious investors to fork-over into starting negative gains, is hard to swallow. Remember, they are investors. They are already seeing what I see.

However... Even if audited, and only spent on "voted things", while providing actual proof of some kind, as to who is taking the funds, and where they are going... The overall outlook is starting negative still.

On the positive side. This allows us, unable to "provide these services", the early adopters who are sacrificing our potential gains (actually paying for the coins being given out), a chance to add value to the coin directly, by investing. (Buying the coins from the people you are giving them to, for free. Thus, paying for "your" coin to be "our" coin... but not actually being "ours", since we don't get a say where the coins go. Just like a govt. or a bank.)

The hope that you know what you are doing, needs to be stronger than the fear that you are just throwing our value around. From the tone of your writing, that is just about balanced. However, not overpowering to trust in another "noob coin". (No offence there. But noob status and noob coin = instant mistrust levels being high.)

It is obvious that you (or entity) have thought some of this out. Though, not enough to appease fears and provide comfort. Thus, my "humorous" statement, with seriousness behind it... to restart with a "fair launch", for all investors. Not just for you (or entity).

Otherwise, in my eyes, and I am sure in most others (by the obvious lack of initial participation), this coin has already hit unforeseen limitations, that should have clearly been seen by such creative people. (Not encouraging.)

So, to refresh... Yes it was serious.

You also have to remember... (HAVE TO)... That this is not your coin. It is ours, if you want us to use it and mine it and invest in it. If you want it to be "yours"... Go ahead mine away! Have a blast for the next 1000 years regulating your own value of your own mined coin.

Unless this is closed-source, not using the open-source BTC/LTC-code... You will have an even shorter coin-life than you ever expected.

If we demand purple heart icons... You might want to put them in there, or we will just find another dev to do it, and take the coin over. But wait... we would not extend that effort, knowing "you" (or entity) hold all those coins, ready to dump on us, when "your coin" is not what "we want". (Unless we make those blocks invalid, and screw-over everyone you paid, with our value... or just locked out the remaining value.)

Ok, dick-mode over... Still mining it. If I don't like it, I will just dump, like everyone-else does with the rest of the coins we don't like, when devs get full of themselves and try to control "us". Don't go that path. There is potential here. (Beyond the premine/insta-mine thing.)

P.S. This is tough love.. not disgruntlement or slamming... Just wanted to make that clear.

Exactly how long will we have to mine before we have mined 0.25% of the total coins, to turn your premine of 0.25%, into about half-value? Thus the initial 0.5% is starting off at only 50% of whatever any mining estimator claims for daily estimates mining.

Make the coin for us, and we will use it... It is that simple.

P.P.S. Still only have one connection... not even sure if I am on the right chain, without a block-chain explorer.

Quick, re-release it with "Zero premine", it's not too late yet... it will be in a month...
Oh, and sources...

Live off donations for services. Not our un-earned value, which we have not added to the network yet.

Perfect time to start-over... after you fix the node issue.

Then make an official post... Usually starts with the title... "[ANN][AIR] AIRcoin", not "/AIRcoin"...That threw me off at first. (Also kill the / as it will screw-up things. Not sure why it is there, just looks like a type-o. Hard to search for it too... looks like a folder.)

They are considering #1 as we speak... (Through PM suggestions.)
#2 is being worked-on (Early adoption is hard, due to changing state of coin dev.)
#3 Though I agree that maturity should be closer to 24-hrs (For forking reasons)... Even that would not alter dumping much. In pools, they can horde plenty of coins that are not being withdrawn, making instant-earned coins ready for withdraw, even before maturity. It will slow-down some solo-miner dumping, but only delay the inevitable. If they want to dump 1000 coins, they will do it once they are ready. Now or later.

I missed that the first observation. Was not looking at the mined-block confirms. Didn't even look at the standard transfer confirms needed. (5-6 blocks [10-min to 12-min] there would be fine, in 99% of the cases. Depends on the natural mini-forks running lengths. I think 6 was the point where natural forking was almost unseen, on a 2-min block.)

Now we know who has been cashing-out all the BTC...

So... mining since January... with 50THs+... Now you can't get reward, so you are "selling" your used hardware, since you contributed to the fall of BTC value directly.

$6000 here in the forums, but your website you say $8000... And still pre-order.

Yet, for less, everyone is selling those same miners, also as a pre-order.

What advantage do we have by buying your over-priced used miners, or hope for the new ones that are pre-orders. I am not seeing the advantage here. You could make more just buying the existing miners, and reselling them.

I suppose you might have a good china-base... But at those prices, the units are not any kind of advantage to anyone in china.

Good to see you got them running, almost two months ago. Why didn't you sell them than. (Oh wait, I bet you did, and changed names. So you are using other peoples pre-orders, made a new company, get more pre-orders, change your name again, and have 2x more miners to dump on the BTC markets.)

Might want to try e-bay... (Though, I am sure you are there selling too, the same 50 miners you already have running.)

I stopped playing "Dungeons and Dragons" in the 1980's, and I am not up to speed on "The Hobbit", or "Lord of the rings", or "Harry Potter"...

I think they are selling shovels, or a new video-game for "X-Box One"!

"You should meet his older brother"
Little-older Wang?

I love that line...
"Now, we 're trying to make our miners , but we did not succeed. That is why we are selling pre-sale methods miners . We want to put money now , and try to establish and higher real technician."

Um, we failed at trying honest work... realized we didn't know what the hell we were doing, so to help china (ourselves), we stole someone-else's chips, and we "think" we might be able to get them to work, if we use your money to hire someone that knows what the hell they are doing with the things we stole.

lol... Um, sign me up... sounds like they will be rolling off the production line any moment now!

I'll take a long-shot and say AMT delivers mine before any of those are delivered...

lol, 15 BTC for slander... They must be rolling in BTC... And had enough to open four offices around the WORLD... just to get "Americans"... to save "China". Save it from what? Being a trusted source of production.

Enough to build 48 units... or whatever... lol... after how-many fry from not knowing what they are doing. They wouldn't have to actually make them, if everyone prepaid. Since they already admitted they are thieves, why would they ever make anything at all! Yes, give money directly to a thief. Also trust that the thief will pay you honest reward for his lazy ass, not taking time to slander on his own time.

I'll sell you China for 25BTC... the whole damn country... To save it, from itself.

P.S. Yay, first post of page 101! I can retire from posting now.. I have met my troll-quota and life-time goal!

Everyone... This is BTC...
BTC = Back To China

Everything is made in China... Everything is used America... It all ends-up in the trash, in the end. xD

When is my I-phone, toaster, micro-wave, shoes and watch going to be made into a 1THs miner? That is what I really want to know!

Now you know why bitmine.ch was actually delayed... the Chinese manufacture that was actually making the chip, decided they wanted the first batch for themselves... Why do you think they offered to manufacture the chips for them. (I bet it is Avalon's same factory hiding under a fake name. lol.)

Mysteriously, 1 months of production is "held-back" at the MFG's... They tell Bitmine.ch, Oops, we had a bad run, your chips are coming soon... BTW, mind if we see your schematics for your boards, while you wait for us to make your chips for you... again...

This is why you NEVER go that path. No-one has ever had good results going that path.

Don't tell them it is an ASIC/BTC chip design... tell them it is just an advanced multi-linked 555-timer with time-slip calculations for measuring the speed of snow-fall, or some other useless thing they won't be tempted to steal for themselves. After-all, they do MFG the chips... I am sure they will figure out how to use it, if they know what it actually is. Not hard to throw them off, with dead-zones in the chip that actually do nothing, and consume little space.

The govt had people all around the world building things, that they didn't know what they were. Just gave them plans, and said build this... (They didn't even know they were building a massive floating bridge and barge, designed to reach the coast from miles away. They were even forced to sink the created pieces, so no-one knew that they were being made, until they were all made and ready to use. Then they floated-up and were sent to war. lol. Failed though... But the production idea worked great!)

When you develop covert things, you need to be covert about it. When you are that open, you just set yourself up for disaster, because those who produce ti for you, already have a big advantage as they are not paying crazy overpriced prices for their own production, like they charge you. That, and they are the ones producing, so you are guaranteed to get anything you asked for, after they take what they want for themselves.

Lesson learned, new models with new technology will be out soon... Hopefully a lot more covert in nature, in the production phase.

LOL, do the "apple" approach... program in bugs, that cause failure, only you have the "correction-chips" and "correction-code" for it to operate normally. Problem thwarted.

That is the difficulty of the "block" you are trying to find...
"Without LP" = Without long-polling... (That is a form of communication for pools, called "stratum" connection. You are HTTP connected. That will not matter to solo-mining. Only for pools, due to shares-sending and work-load distribution.)

If you join a pool, you WANT a stratum connection (with long-polling), as it is faster and less cumbersome for the pool to manage. They usually have HTTP for those who can not connect through stratum connections. Only as a last-resort backup connection.

On the other hand...

If tied to the exchange, and the user selected, say USD, at whatever exchange...

Values below would be initially set to match the value on the date the coins were mined/deposited, on whatever exchange was selected. The last value being the actual "exchange rate per 1 coin".

The wallet would show this...
AIR           USD           USD/AIR
3.75 AIR = $0.05432 @ $0.014485/AIR
3.75 AIR = $0.18323 @ $0.048861/AIR
3.75 AIR = $0.01433 @ $0.003821/AIR
3.75 AIR = $0.11131 @ $0.029682/AIR
100 AIR = $2.21333 @ $0.022133/AIR
==============================
115 AIR = $2.57652 @ $0.0257652/AIR

Then we would see that if the value rose to $0.0410000/AIR... it would be good to sell all coins.
Then we would see that if the value fell to $0.0104000/AIR... We could sell only 3.75 for a gain, the rest would be a slight loss. Or 7.5 for nearly break-even. (third one would be removed, since it is the lowest valued 3.75, and assumed to be the one sold.)

Also, as a whole, we constantly see the "value".

If we select BTC as the value... then those $ would be replaced by BTC symbols. (If that is our goal.)

The addition of this line, at the bottom...
==============================
115 AIR = $2.57652 @ $0.0257652/AIR
==============================
Exchange Rate @ Cryptsy:
115 AIR = $4.71500 @ $0.0410000/AIR

That would show the actual value now... Thus, you instantly see what gains/losses you have, over your initial value (Or your individual "Bottom dollar".)

Plenty of room in the transactions list for that information.
Make another tab for "available funds"... like the transactions summary, with that info... and let us select which coins to sell, or auto-sell only the lowest value ones. (Does not matter which ones are actually sold, but for removal from "available funds", you would kindly remove the lowest valued ones first. Retaining the "change" to hold the same value as the last highest valued price sold.)

BTC= Rock... Rocks have value, different value to different people... Like BTC...

Comparing to BTC as AIR/BTC value, is irrelevant, unless we just want BTC. BTC is not an exit point, is is a direct conversion limitation. The "value" is still always some FIAT. You would still have to compare AIR to BTC/USD not just BTC alone. To get "value".

That is what we do now, just the hard way... Knowing it is worth 0.1BTC is useless unless you know the "value" of BTC in some form of FIAT. (Even things purchased with BTC, have determined BTC-cost based on FIAT-Value of BTC/FIAT, before setting the "cost" in BTC. BTC is a "Cost" not a "Value".)

That is why Alts should be going up, as BTC falls in value. So they equal the same FIAT-Value. When they do not rise with BTC fall, they are actually falling in value too. When they rise, if they don't rise enough to cover value, they are still falling. If they fall when BTC falls, then they are loosing value exponentially. (Since they are traded against BTC/FIAT value.)

BTW, expectations in BTC-Mining-Reward is not what we expect, as miners. BTC is not the most rewarding to mine. Usually it is never the most rewarding to mine. Just a forced-output, to get to FIAT. (A hindrance.)

You want an alt to thrive, with actual value comparison... Create a direct FIAT exchange. (Even if only private, at first, to investors. For a true base-line, which can be used to guide what the coin is worth, compared to BTC.)

Ok, rant done. Just expressing my long-term concern and commitment, indicating that if tied to just "BTC-reward", and not "BTC/USD Value", my stay will not be long here. Especially if "my value" will be "manipulated", without control, by another individual. Defeats the purpose of "setting your own value". Makes it more like a FIAT, which is almost counter-productive to the point of the coin in the first place.

Good though, that you can only actually manipulate the miners rewards, and not the actual coins value, once mined. (Except through direct purchases and sales on the exchanges we are listing on.) As a miner though, this is not looking like it offers much of an incentive. Knowing that the coin I mined is what it is, but future coins mined will be manipulated just prior to actually finding them, is slightly disturbing. One bug, and we all of a sudden have 1000000 coin rewards, or 0.000000001 coin rewards, and a resulting cluster-f**k of market adjustments that burden everyone, not just those few buggy rewards that failed a floating-point conversion, or pulled/fed bad value data, at the time they mined the reward. (Blind miners would mine for days before they had a chance to respond. Hoppers would know instantly, and jump-off or jump-on depending on the error.)

The only thing that would have let you completely "regulate" the coin, is if all coins actually got mined directly to the "primary exchange", and had to be extracted from there, before going into a users wallet, for secondary exchange or use. Since these go right into our wallets, we can use any exchange, or no exchange. You only have the ability to manipulate exchanges themselves. Not person to person exchanges.

Manipulating non-owned exchanges may eventually kick you in the butt... Remember, exchanges are not regulated. They could list fake low values, to get you to fork-over more coins, or fake high values, for the same reason. Trying to manipulate them would put us ALL at risk, not just you. If you lost, trying to manipulate those external markets.


Something you just won't be able to prove, and thus, will become fueled by the majority, who "have to lose" so the "few can gain", since "everyone can't just gain", or there would be no gains at all. (Unless someone just kept dumping millions of dollars into the exchange, adding value. Someone is losing on those trades, and those gaining will be less, or the gains will not be "large". If "small", then there are still more losers, losing, though there are still more winning less.) Same problems banks face when offering CD's and savings-rewards... (Then they still have to take-out overhead costs and CEO pay and losses from defaults. Leaves little reward.)

Now... If value is taken from other markets... Wait.. take value from BTC and you reduce our reward as BTC value too... Seems like a catch-22 unless you are taking value from other locations like other alts, and gold, silver, oil, IBM, APPLE, ENRON...

EXCHANGE'S PRICE (GoxBTC @ $135/BTC)
(Only for the 48 connected states in the USA. Gox->Gox transfer.)

My Offer: Buying GoxBTC with $1000.00 USD real dollars for ($0.00001/BTC = 100,000,000 BTC).
(Or GoxUSD, just buy GoxBTC for the BTC transfer to my Gox acct.)

US-Postal MoneyOrder*, Western-Union, PayPal (You will be sent $1020 to cover some fees), or in person**
* Preferred payment option
** Location: Jacksonville, Florida

(Faster than getting cash out of Gox, and more rewarding!)

P.S. Can provide eBay credentials (131* 100% positive feedback), Can escrow, if desired.

Still taking orders, on next page...

Agreed... They make TLDR worth reading.

These guys know what they are doing. Obviously, they are bankers and politicians, not kids and programmers.

P.S. That was not an insult to bankers and politicians... Nor to kids and programmers.

EDIT: Just had a weird Déjà-vu there...

Would be interesting to see a coin that actually had two exchange-rates...

One for "unspent" minted block-rewards, (virgin coins).
One for "living" coins, (coins moved to any output, other than the virgin exchange).

Once moved, it is now a living coin. The special "mint exchange", would be for us miners only. Only virgin coins accepted for deposits. All coin withdraws would have to move out to a wallet, or onto the "live" exchange.

Thus, keeping mining value slightly distant from actual coins being used/traded, once separated from the miners grip/possession.
(Not that I believe this coin should do that. It was just a thought which came as I read your reply.)

The one thing I always wanted coins to do, is have a tie-in to any exchange the user actually trades on. For the only purpose of showing the coins values, as they were earned or accepted and spent. (Even if only the final average, based off the "received by date" of the incoming transaction.)

For miners, traders, and users... This would help a lot. Letting them know that the value NOW, is less than the average value of the coin they had originally mined or obtained. (Excessive to show each individual coins value, but not impossible, since each tx has a date and each exchange has historic charts.) On the plus side, it could let some people more comfortable letting some go at a slight loss or increase spending when value was high. On the negative side, it could stall use of the coin when value is too low. (Both can be swapped, depending on the situation, as being positive or negative.) This, as opposed to just having to "remember" what the value was when you got the coins, which is impossible to do. Also, knowing the price now is almost irrelevant, as lower prices could still be a gain to some holders. While higher prices might actually be a loss, to some.

Just throwing more stuff around for your code-guru's to play with.

Might also want some of the traders, that will be adding value in the future, to be forced to "put their money where their mouth is". That is a slightly uncommon, but highly effective tool to reduce risk as a trader. You force them to put-up a percentage of their own finances, to trade with others finances. If they are unwilling to risk their own funds, then they should not be allowed to risk others funds. (That is how I do brokering. I won't make a trade, with others funds, that I would not make myself.) Just telling them they get a percentage of the reward, is not enough. Nor is telling them that they must take a percentage of the loss... (or all the trade-loss, for "no-risk" broker-trading.)

P.S. I don't like the idea of being tied to BTC-Value, since BTC is not a fixed value. Being worth 0.1BTC means nothing, without knowing what that 0.1BTC is worth in the denomination you will be withdrawing/buying with. That is one of the major flaws in cryptsy. It shows you value in BTC. It should show value in USD or CNY or JPY, based off BTC-Val/USD CNY JPY, etc... but only because you are actually trading in BTC as the medium. Going from 0.1BTC val to 0.2BTC val is not a gain, if BTC just dropped in value from $1200 USD to $200 USD... it would be a loss, and thus, makes it a useless base for "value comparison". (Since you have to value BTC as some currency, then that should be the foundation for representation, and expressed as such.) But, if you only use BTC as the value, that is fine by me. Because at the moment, my goal is simply more BTC, no matter what the cost is now. But that is not everyone's desire.

Are we back to being uncertain if AMT is real... again... again...

Didn't we get past "reality", about 40 pages back? Is this one of those Einstein things, or the matrix?

Photos, videos, telephone-calls, emails, mail-boxes, bank-accounts, physical shop, linked-in pages, servers, website...

All that is not real?

Looks around... Touches self... Touches self again... Am I even real? Oh, yea, I am a customer, and you implied customers are real.

Looks at screen... Touches screen... (It is not a touch-screen. Well, it does not respond to touching like I do. But you can still touch it.) That feels real! AMT is on my screen, so they must be real too!

Myth busted.

Sorry, had to add some more stupidity to the mix, while I waited for the new video to be uploaded. I like to watch reality shows, and some fantasy... So I win no matter what is in the video.

What is reality, really? Perception... If we all had the same perception, it would not be perception, it would actually be reality, but, reality is not what we perceive, as individuals. That is only OUR reality, or perception of reality. What was the question again, My ADD is going full force now.. thanks!

I think, therefore I think I am.

Got 2 solid connections now.

Coin is running perfect.

With my smaller work-load size, of 64*, this is my results.

Difficulty: (16.4K) 0.250244140625
Blocks: 70 accepted
Time: 9 Hrs
Hash/Pow: 3 MHs / 1200 Wh (1.2KWh)
Acc/Rej: 70/15 = 85 [17% rejects] * Due to small workload, rejects may be higher than yours
Coins: 260.40

Daily estimate: 694.40 Per day @ 3 MHs = (231.46666/MHs/Day)
Electric cost: $5.00 per day

Estimated "bottom dollar" cost per coin, at the moment: $0.0072004608294931 USD/AIR
Estimated "bottom dollar" coins per dollar, at the moment: 138.88 AIR/USD

Estimates would imply that I only made $5.00 per day mining, to cover electric costs only, at my local rates and at my estimated power consumption of my rig. That is not the trade-value I would expect/hope to get in the future. That is only the "bottom dollar", which is needed in value, to make the coin equal to zero-value. As opposed to being negative OROI (Operating Return On Investment).

Similar coin rewards of this yield, would expect to return $18.00 to $10.00 per day, at 3 MHs, after the $5.00 electric cost has been removed. ($23.00 to $15.00 if electricity was free.)

Figured this might help to determine some reasonable starting value.

Not sure how accurate those estimates are... Since it takes 24-hrs for the coin to adjust to actual workload/yield. Might be getting more than expected, or way less than expected.

P.S. What the heck is that logo? Not sure what to think of it. Looks like a grave-stone/coffin with an upside-down "?" etched on it.

Just asking... because that is not clear. Might be in the TLDR stuff.

P.P.S. "Coin Supply can last between 100 and 1000+ Years" Might want to change that to say...
"Initial Mining-reward can last between 100 and 1000+ Years"

Don't want people thinking the coin-supply itself is only going to last that long! (Supply is usually "captured assets", not "uncaptured assets"... You don't refer to unmined gold as a "supply", only mined gold sitting in vaults is a "supply". (It is unknown how much gold the earth actually contains. )

Found on the ABOUT page... http://teamaircoin.org/about/

Only getting one connection... (Thought we need 3 minimum to mine)

Block: #4567
Diff: (16.4K) 0.250244140625
Reward: 3.72

Also find it odd that each mined coin goes to a random wallet address... if this goes beyond the initial 100... is that going to make recovery impossible? We can't re-create the address beyond the first 100 in the wallet. Those are pure random. If the wallet can't "read those", it can not "recreate them", because they were random.

Might want to move all mined coins ASAP, every few days... One corrupted wallet will destroy any chance of recovering that address as yours. Unless you get lucky and randomly generate the same address again, and check the balance of coins deposited to that address. (Which would reveal the lost coins.)

This has been talked about before. (Addresses beyond the initial 100 generated addresses.) Have they changed the code to make it non-random, or programmatic pseudo-random, from a "known base-value" for recreation?