Yea, they could only do that if they put the 1600W-1800W value down, as power draw... They could do that... but it wouldn't run in America that well... too many amps "at the wall" Home fires everywhere! That is KNC's issue, at the moment, with the new miner.. Just doesn't work in America, with the "standard wall outlets". Thus, also not compliant with US power limits, for home use. You gotta beef-up the outlet, wires, breaker, or split power on both legs, which is not wise with one shared ground in a PSU. (Not at 110/120v, but it is compliant at 220/240v outlets. Not sure how friendly it would operate on two-phase 220/240v though. I only have one PSU running on 240v outlet here... I don't trust it.)

I have eight individual wired outlets with standard wiring, they get hot, running at only 1500W each.

Each 1.2THs miner I buy, will replace 1-2 of my scrypt miners. Time for them to retire anyways. I may replace those with scrypt-ASICs in the future.

Hell, my rigs are not legal to run in the house. They live out in the garage, and the back porch. They like the humidity and open air... Even at 95F.

The thermal review should be interesting for the 1.2THs miners.

When you solo-mine, your miner is not wasting "time", "bandwidth", "processing", sending your wallet or cgminer, the junk-shares. They just grab the next work-load and mine if they find no solution. Yes, it can drag a 1.2THs miner down to 1.0THs of average output. (Prior to the pool).

When you tell your miner to "give me the junk that is ____ diff", so you can submit it as a share... this is what it does...
1: Saves that hash for the diff you wanted (Has to check each result and compare it to your requested value)
2: Checks that hash, to make sure it is valid
3: Sends that hash through the stream (A stream which is shared with other miners sending this crap back also.)
4: Wraps it in a package to send to the pool
5: Sends it through a TCP boradcast, waiting for an "OK, got it".
6: Resends, if that fails... (skip this if it got back an OK, repeat this over and over until OK is gotten.)
7: Works on next load now (repeat from step 1 for next diff)

As opposed to solo-mining...
1: Check found block
2: Submit found block (Repeat from step 1)

Time lost "submitting junk", at the CPU/miner is enough to be noticed. Varies by each chip... depends how fast they puke-out info, and the CPU can direct that info in the threads, and process that info for packing, and sending.

The more "shares" (low diffs) you send, the more you lose in actual processing time. Not to mention the other-end, where you are right... higher diffs = more potential share loss, as they take longer to find. Thus, the need to tune the shares to the speed of the units. And... for 1THs, 128-256 is more "tuned" for less losses of both the processing at the miner and losses from the pool. (Seen more on faster blocks, as those do more "resetting workload", which is where the "workload-size" comes into play.)

I tune machines like crazy. Voltage is step 1, delivery and processing is step 2, cooling is step 3. Beyond that, there is nothing much that can be done. But it all matters, and 1-10% loss from dozens of machines matters a lot more than 1-10% loss from one machine. But I will go over all of that in a full review, once my miner comes.

Obviously you don't mine with an army, like I have...

You submit 10,000,000 diff-1 shares and tell me your miners don't run slower submitting crap...
You put the work-load higher on big miners, and put the "submit shares" to 256 for THs miners, not 16-diff, which slows down the network, sending millions of share-hashes. Sending 1,000 a second is too much, stops CGminer from actually processing blocks, lowering your average. That is why they changed the pools to auto-adapt to flooding of crap.

Want a tip... if you are in a pool... use small shares with small miners and smaller workload sizes of 64. You finish work faster, and submit a few more shares than the guy with a 256 workload size. He is still "processing" while you have submitted 4 shares. When the next block arrives, or your solution, you have already submitted, and his 256 workload still processing gets rejected for being late, by the time it actually submits. However, you will be considered a flooding miner, and big pools will auto-adjust to higher shares if you have too many small miners.

For a THs miner, that is death, submitting too many orders too fast. You got speed, you need those bigger orders to stop from flooding the threads and the miner and the network and the wallet and the pools processing all those hashes to confirm they are valid before accepting them as "credit". Networks buffer like crazy, you will lose more credits and "found blocks" due to your ISP buffering the hell out of your puked data.

I no longer mine on pools... I like getting my actual blocks and tx-rewards, and don't like having my hard work rejected because someone found a block, and so it throws-out your hard worked shares, as if you didn't just work them. Pools are a scam. For some, it is the only way to mine. I choose lower diff coins I can solo-mine, more rewarding in the end.

Let me see if I can put some reality into this...

The unit with 40 chips, (5x boards), shows about 212GHs average per board running an undersized share/hash. So, If running with the appropriate diff-rate of 64, which that unit should be doing, I'll say it runs closer to the peaks I saw of just under 222GHs per board. Total, that is 5x 222GHs = 1110 Peak (Which is what a company advertises as a units "Ability" or "Potential". Not to mention that it takes about 30 min of mining to settle-in to a decent average, which is higher than start-up averages and peaks.)

The power consumed read as, 1059-1061 Watts, "from/at the wall". (Since power does not move "to the wall".)

They also admit that the "unit will run with lower wattage", once they actually optimize it. (Obviously, this is just a RAW setup, which has not been tuned, it was just made to function for the demo.) For now, lets assume they don't get any better, with 40 chips, running at an unspecified operating voltage. You don't know if those are slightly voltage-bumped, which I assume they are, by the specs of the units and chips.

The units being sold to us are 1.2THs units. (Still does not specify if that is a maximum potential, or normal operation potential, but I will assume "normal for the unit, at the stock settings of the unit". Also I will assume that is a peak potential for that mode. Eg, ideal cooling and power delivery of your home. Thus, potential. Individual use may vary, obviously.)

So this would require more than 40 chips, as 40 is only what is required for the 1.0 advertised units. With each card being roughly 200GHs (222GHs peak, at non-optimized settings.) This would be 6 cards, which is 48 chips.

6 cards (48 chips), running non-optimized deliver 222GHs peak (at an unspecified operating voltage). This is a total of 1,332GHs or 1.332THs peak, in normal mode. (Not Max, because that would be "turbo", and that is not how these are being setup.)

Voltages are variable, and settable by steps, so how AMT sets-up the voltage as "normal", will ultimately matter. However, I will assume, rightfully, that the video showed just the chips running at the "normal" chip-voltage.

Quick recap of the 5x units values...
Power-saver: 750GHs {est: 400W}
Normal-mode: 1000GHs {act: 1060W} (1110GHs peak shown)
Turbo-mode: 1500GHs {est: 1875W}

Translate up to the 6x cards (48 chips) AMT's minimum possible chip requirement
Power-saver: 900GHs {est: 480W}
AMT-tuned: 1200GHs {est: 990W} [900W + 10%] <- voltage below "chips normal mode".
Normal-mode: 1200GHs {act: 1272W} (1332GHs peak shown)
Turbo-mode: 1800GHs {est: 2250W}

Now, provided AMT uses this Minimum possible chip design, and does not add more chips... (More chips would allow them to run at lower voltages, delivering more GHs per the same wattage.)

900W, the "estimated" power consumption, plus 10% = 990W (That is the "complete adjusted estimate".)
1200GHs, the "estimated" peak production ability, minus 10% = 1080GHs (That is the "complete adjusted estimate".)

By those estimates, the projected 6x (48 chips), would operate within specs, slightly below the "chips" "normal voltage". Which, for the AMT 1.2THs miner, would be the units "normal operating voltage", or "stock setting".

It would only take about 60 chips, operating at lower voltages (but not power-saver low), to produce the desired 1.2THs at 600W, but I am sure the 600W +10% (660W) is the consumption in power-saver mode, which should be about 900GHs. (480W estimated by the producers of the chip, for their completed units. Which would be about 600W if they used 60 chips, instead of 48, and produce 1.2THs, not 900GHs.)

So... If this is only the 48 chip design (6x boards), that allows me to push the unit to 1.8GHs potentially, by adding one more PSU. Nice... if it is 60 (doubt that), wow, that would be about 2.4GHs... Actually, that makes 60 chips sound like a more realistic design. (Still doubt I will get 60 chips though. )

40 chips... Not... that is not the system they sold us, 40 chips is the 1.0GHs unit. That is why I would have never gotten the unit from coincraft, besides having to pay crazy VAT for delivery.

I don't see these units being impossible to fall into the specs. My view has not changed. The chips have exceeded the design specs themselves. So should most of the units.

Hope AMT is generous with the first production of non-optimized and heavily-populated boards. (Would like to know what the chip-count would be for the units still... Anything over 48 would be freaking great! But 48 would be plenty still. 1.8THs potential from a 1.2THs machine, and I am happy.)

If "you" are one of those people with tens of thousands of dollars spent on AMT... It is a little late to be asking NOW, all this information.

For those of us who were "satisfied" with the information provided, we made purchases, or inquired directly with them. We didn't wait until after buying, to bother and ask... "Are you even real?"

That is one reason why I wouldn't answer some of these responses. The others, have all been appropriately answered, to the best of their ability, or desire.

Do you care who runs apple... Do you care where apple is registered... Do you care if apple supports the Spanish-mafia with your purchase... Do you think apple would call you back after having purchased a pre-order for a product that is not even out yet... Do you even know where your apple product is being made... Does apple give you updates to delays of future products, before they are sure there is even a delay...

Inquiring minds want to know. (By the way, the answers to those things are not what you would believe, if I told you. Your research will not give the same results as my actual inside knowledge of apple. "Public image" and "perception", is not the reality of the world we live in. We only think it is... That is why it is called perception, and public images. Don't even ask me about "Hallmark Cards"... Nothing is as real as it seems.)

You are right, this isn't apple... That is a horrible comparison... Lets try this one again... BFL... KNC... CoinTerra... (insert any ASIC produced item here, pre-ordered)

If you wanted a product-babysitter, you should have paid the extra $100 for the micro-second status-update twitter-feeds, like I did... (That was a joke, it was actually $200 for that.)

If "you" actually wanted to know this stuff, "you" would have contacted them directly, not indirectly in a public forum. Sorry, but they don't have to tell, "forum-user-guy", crap... Again, if you failed to ask this stuff prior to a purchase, that ship has sailed. You took the risk, accepted it, and now you have no choice except to wait. You chose that path. Live with the consequences of your own actions. Though, you are crying over spilled milk. Loud... Like a child... When children cry, we beat them until they shut-up... Well, I do... That is what I was taught by my parents... Come to think of it, that didn't work too well for them either.

Magnets, how do they work?

God, makes people and planets for fun!

Gravity, sucks everything towards everything-else!

AMT, imaginary freemasons from DelPennsylWareVania, buying chips for fun...

Funny thing is... posters here think of themselves as somehow being "credible", and the center of the bitcoin world. LOL... (Just like I am... The center of the credible BTC universe. )

However, of 244,367 total members of this forum, there are only 30,000 with postings above {15 "neewbies"}, and only about 6,000 with posts above 173... Not counting the 60% with 0-posts... (Me [Activity 280, Posts: 734] Man I talk a lot! 75% BS though, I am sure. )
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=mlist;sort=realName;start=0

Translation... about 10% of the members were "active", and of that 10%, only 20% of that 10%, were active enough to actually reply to more than one posting. (The rest are one-time posters who just leave, or they are alt-accounts created for the purpose of trolling/spamming/scamming.)

There are thousands and thousands of miners, and hundreds of thousands of machines. This forum is a small minority of the miners mining, and most here don't even mine, they just trade and try to scam others out of bitcoins.

Trust me, YOU (trolls) do not have any actual impact on anything happening in the real world. (Even if you have many posts, and are a professional troller. Like me, at times. lol.)

There is no such thing as bad news, just bad advertisement. At the most, you make people do more research, and only ensure that they are more confident about their purchase, after they ignore your lame accusations.

I don't even recall anyone asking for that 5% off... However, it is no different than any other legitimate business giving you 10% off if you write a good review for them. To that, I believe AMT did know what they were getting into, just not the full spectrum of the persistence of morons that would come pouring in.

This is NOT the only point of contact for ASIC sales. Ads and publications draw people in from all over the internet. This is just a social funnel for a few brave enough to attempt communication, with the communally challenged.

P.S. This is why global peace is NEVER possible... because for every person born that is happy, only when you are happy... There is another person born who is happy, only when you are miserable. Welcome to the laws of nature and science. The internet just brings us closer to one another...

Income-taxes coming... now you know why Gox is holding the market low... Guess where the majority will deposit funds to buy... The lowest exchange.

lol. I see that as a wise strategy move, not bad news...

BTCe got all the low funds all summer (millions), what they actually were able to get deposited, and Gox will get all the funds from income-tax time (billions). That is more money flowing into Gox than any other exchange, and all they have to do is hold the price low a little longer, which costs them nothing to do, but will reward them millions in exchange fees from trades all year long. Smart!

No.. not yet.. let it fall to $200 first... I want more BTC for my money!

Why buy it at 60% off, when you can get it at 80% off!

Why buy one, when you can have two for twice the price!

2014 is the "Year of investment"... there are no new toys to buy, and investing is the only safe thing to do now. (Just not as fiat investments. Those never return more then the value they lose over time.)

Those bashing BTC either have no actual clue what is going on, or they are simply trying to get you to lower your prices for discount BTC before the real spike coming in the following months.

Nothing has changed... Bad news makes people look harder when the market does the complete opposite of predictions. They realize all the crap-news is just bloggers trying to make money getting hits for ads, riding the coat-tails of BTC, in an attempt to seem "informed".

They are rolling the dice, and losing, while BTC, as a whole, wins... There is no such thing as bad news, only bad advertisements. News is something that people didn't know, and is truthful, and is backed by some kind of substance. There is little "news" that exists anymore. Just a bunch of people who like to hear themselves talk, like me, talking.

Where is BTC going... Inevitably up... Now, well, down, until the majority all thinks it will keep going down, then it will switch directions again. Which-ever way the majority thinks it will go (those acting on thoughts), it will always go the other way. Because if it went the way everyone thought it would go, we would all be winners, and thus, be losers with zero value. That is the way "value" works.

Me, I see a 60% off sale on BTC, and will be investing my income-taxes as soon as they arrive. Just like many people did last year, and the year before that. Those start arriving now, and will come for the next three months. Look back on the charts... That is when the "real spikes" come. This spike was just a prelude to the real spike. You have not seen anything yet!

Those who say I can't predict the market rising... Because they "clearly see it falling"... I say... "If I can't predict its rise, then you can't predict its fall. At the end of the day, I am the one making money off my speculations, you are just speculating something you don't actually participate in, and don't understand."

I expect it to fall... I need it to fall... To get those discount coins! lol.

I never said it wouldn't fall, I said it would go up to _____ price... and it does... but not before falling, where I swipe it up. Game isn't over until you cash-out and put money in your pocket... then you are out of the game, and we keep playing. You can lose by not playing, unlike a lottery. Because the longer you hold fiat, the less valuable fiat becomes. That is the only "truth" of fiat. Assets are the only real value. Ironically, virtual assets are the most valuable, because they are so limited.

P.S. Don't mistake "growing pains" for failure and decline... BTC is still on the greatest rise in history. It "is too big to fail"... sound familiar? But that is not true... nothing is ever too big to fail. Banks are failing because they are banks. BTC is thriving because it is BTC. It is, "just as simple as that", deal with it. Big things need to fail. BTC is not that big yet... Give it another five years, then it can be tested for failure, but unlike banks and governments, it will not. Because they are already participating in it, whether they lie it or not. They don't control as much as they like to think they do. That is their short-coming.

Thank-you... That is support!

But my eyes are beginning to cross... Need sleep. Fresh start in the morning.

I would actually like some input from the guys who are building all the custom hardware itself. They know all the specs for the chips that I don't have access to. I only know what I work with at the moment, which is PIC-micro, Atmel-Atmega, and some other old and odd chips.

Like I said, I know this stuff all works... it is just a matter of physical design, supporting (chips), and production. (I think the 3D renderings will have a better offering than my words. You can see the actual physical layout and components mentioned above. I will be using a sample-die, and just stripping-off the data-lines, for the example. However, Atmel-Atmega chips don't really get hot, nor are they fast enough to actually gain from light-communication speeds. That is like adding nitro and a blower/turbo to a 25cc moped!)

Working on some 3D renderings, (nothing fancy), just to give a better visualization. However, I have to move to another computer, which is not setup for my 3D programs yet. This computer is too bogged-down processing other things. (Not to mention, it has one of those horrible ball-mice things. )

Going to use my wacom-tablet and a normal three-button mouse, should be quick to turn my technical drawings into 3D with sketchup, before I play with them more in AutodeskCAD. (Has been a while since I used that program. Sketchup is faster and easier to rough-out ideas.)

This doesn't use any alien technology, by the way. All this crap exists, just not all crunched into one tiny package, yet...

Hell, your shoes talk to your I-pod, your phones can be charged and communicate without wires, and stacking more than dies inside of a chip is nothing new. As for fiber-optics... Our remotes have been using open-air optics for communication for years. (Though the designs are crappy still.)

Ok, going back to my corner...

Design-wise... This should conserve some power-use, normally used to "communicate", over copper-wire. Generation of light uses less power than feeding 16-256 lines of power for sending data to a chip just inches away, or feet... Not to mention the bandwidth of light would easily replace thousands of physical wire data-line connections. (But that is old-news... we all know what optic-power is able to do. We just don't do much with it, where it is needed.)

Also, some SMT components could also fit directly within the die-package, where chips might require some external components still. Essentially moving everything from outside the package, to inside the package. Further reducing line-resistance and external connections. (Where external connections, other than data, are still needed.)

Not sure what other things can be removed/relocated into the heat-sink sandwich.

Another neat "step-forward", if not just the optics in the package, is placing super-thin PCB's and edge-mounted SMT components within the package. (Still keeping this a completely isolated device, like a USB-miner, but with even less wires and no need for a usb power/communication-hub.)

Could be applied to RAM, CPU, PCIe... Imagine all your components just sitting near one another, floating... no contact... no PCB's anymore... No funky connections... 100% waterproof... Just two wires, or none... Want another CPU, just throw one in, and it starts talking! (Ok, that is more down the road... Custom stacked individual components that just need to be near one another.) lol

Has to start somewhere.. Why not in the heart of BTC forums! BTC's second biggest contribution to the advancement of the world.

Using the chip itself (package), to broadcast/receive the data as light. Using open-air, not fiber-optics. (Since this would not be broadcasting feet and miles, just inches.)

This, being a open-source project.

I have thought about this for years, yet I have never found a good reason to "realize" the idea, until now.

For the record, I do not design chips beyond software, however, my ability is personally irrelevant to this concept.

This is my thoughts/observations...
1: Many chips now have few external "supporting hardware dependencies". (Unlike the past, where capacitors, resistors, RF-filters, and various other "physical components" were needed.)
2: The chips/dies are getting smaller, but packages are not. (This due in part to the large number of communication wires and thermal-dissipation surface needed for many designs.)
3: Smaller dies in larger packages, adds slight delays over traditional "wires/traces", which can cause various timing issues or signal-losses, as well as collecting RF-noise and undesired capacitance. (Since a wire along plastic/glass/insulation is essentially a capacitor.)
4: Mounting chips limits heat dissipation, with one side constantly resting on an insulation glass PCB surface, and sitting on traces contained within the insulation PCB layers.

My original idea (not original itself, just saying it was my first thought), was to simply use a LED source, attached to a chip's edge. The connection being the data-lines themselves. (This was on a tiny Atmel-Atmega chip.) Though it worked great, the idea sat dormant for years again.

What I am thinking now, is that the LED component, or LASER-LED, could be built right inside of the chip. This would not "demand", "Fiber-optics", though isolated fiber-optic lines would create better isolation.

With the ability to easily isolate and create specific light frequencies with the new LEDs, and sensors, I think it is time for this idea to be explored again.

In the advent of bitcoins, for ASIC mining, I think this concept "realized", would seriously help advance bitcoin mining, and have a mutual relationship with the rest of the advancements in technology, as a whole. It is about time we gave chips an upgrade. Going smaller is not much of an advancement.

The reason it would really help mining, would be the following...
1: You would only need two terminals for the chip. Positive and negative, for power.
2: You would need few micro-connections to the die. Only the two power, and two for the emitter/detector.
3: There would be almost no RF noise from the data, as it is not broadcast over wires.
4: There would be a great chance to split dies into smaller pieces, using internal optics, to assist in a wider thermal-footprint.
5: The chip could have thermal dissipation on both sides of the chip, with a direct internal "ground" leaf.
6: The heat-sink itself, could be the dies RF-shielding, and also the light-channel guide.
7: You have greater freedom of where the individual components of any "unit", as a whole, could be positioned. (As opposed to being limited to the PCB itself.)
8: More distantly, using RF-power, you could eliminate all external wire-connections entirely. (Using that empty space in the chip itself as the location of the wire-coil that capture RF-noise for power.)
9: The light itself can be the "timing", and the "data I/O", and even power, on smaller levels. (Solar.)

You could instantly feed every chip, all at the same time, the new data to be processed. You would not have to individually communicate or regulate communications. Same for the "results", which only one chip will broadcast, and each other chip can instantly prepare for new data, before being told. (Since they can openly see the others results. Unless they are all isolated with fiber-optic lines.)

So... any thoughts... questions?

Which individual chip "now", has the least demand for external supporting hardware. The block-erupter chips seems to have few external physical components required. Even if the external connections are limited, this still has a "first-step" use. (Stripping all the data-lines is the major thing. Heck, PCIe would be the size of one LED, if you removed the data-lines and redundant power-lines. See where I am headed with this now...)

It is always cheaper to buy the coins... However...

You don't get "transaction rewards", (Most pools keep those anyways)... What is 0.001% of a billion/million/hundred-thousand dollars worth of bitcoins being moved in a block? More then 25 coins, I imagine... (Seen some real big moves lately.)

You also don't get to manipulate the market value on smaller coins, by throwing hash-power and cashing-out... However you can still manipulate smaller markets with buying and selling. (Not much manipulation you can do to a high-volume or high-price or high-diff market.)

I believe the S1 and S2 are the best for "now"... but the A1's are starting to reach the hands of others. So give it a few weeks, and the answer will change to A1's. (KNC's will still be preorder, until they ramp-up production or take greater advantage of the smaller die they are using. It is hardly as efficient as it could be. But then again, it is a first-run design.)

Since every new block is essentially a "lotto-draw", quantity actually still holds better over speed of any single unit. Buying 1,000,000 tickets all at once, is better than buying 1, followed by drawing 1 more, and 1 more. Even if that 1 tickets totals 10,000,000 by the time the other has drawn 10,000,000. (Hard to explain that one. One chip-stream versus 1000 streams from more processors/units.)

Think of it like this... You and 10,000 other people are all standing at individual counters. You is your one unit, the 10,000 others is another persons 10,000 slower units... Doesn't matter how fast you buy tickets, you all get the first ticket at the same time. Only your second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth... come faster then their following second ticket. By that time, chances are, the block was found. 1/10001th of the time it is you, the other 10000 times it was the other guy. (But only for that first-hit. If it is found in three tickets, the other guy is screwed... you always get that block, because he didn't find it in two shots, which was all he had. (That is with all things being equal... him having 1THs, and you also having 1THs. Thus, solo-man vs miner-factory.)

Just don't buy billions of USB-stick-miners, as a strategy... lol. Sure, it might work, but chances is, it will never pay-out in the end. (Well, it could if BTC hits $300,000 in the next year! Not! Only $6000...)

No-one got screwed.

There is no misinformation, other than the crap spewing from trolling post using the poorest detective work.

There has been plenty of updates between the troll-posts, and news pages. (Including the "pictures" and "updates to shipping and building".)

Yes, I would care if I NEVER got my miner. But I am getting it, and getting it before all those who patiently waited before attempting to make a purchase. (And before most other THs miners from any other place, I might add too.) Could have had more, if anyone took me up on my offers for a refund. (So it seems a majority, like myself, obviously have the same confidence about delivery and production.)

There is always BFL to buy from, or KNC... Oh wait.. KNC still does not have open-orders, and BFL, you will be lucky if you get the miner within a year from purchase. Go buy some ants , blocks, or usb-miners if you think you will get something better there. Same wolf-cries all over, from idiots trying to curb sales.

Same thing happens every time.

What's next... Complaining because they didn't send you two, when you ordered one. No free water with every purchase, like BFL offered. No insta-ROI because of expected market fluctuation in price. No refund 30-days after getting it, after you mined your own coin-value into the ground, because you insta-cashed-out. (Also not a possibility, even though "consumer protections", states that it is. Again, one of those limitations of the law, for this instance. Nice thing called pro-rated returns, and custom contracted asset return limitations.)

Sorry, gotta go do something productive, so I can earn more, to buy more. I am still making hundreds a day with my old equipment, contributing to the falling prices of BTC, so I can buy it cheaper with cash. Ironic, isn't it. lol. Just like paying for a BTC miner with BTC. Or buying a printing-press with cash.

And in my own defense about my statement about consumer protections being for customers and for the business.. This is a direct quote from the FTC gov website...
It is not ONLY for the consumer. Consumers attempt to unjustly demand things they are just not legally entitled to, like refunds and "free things", and "slander". Which is also protected under consumer protections acts. For the business. Including the fraud-laws, where consumers "claim" things that are just fraudulent. Thus, the reason why your CC's spend billions to protect the businesses and customers they serve, using your own money.

This is not just "computing hardware"... It is a specific machine custom-built with new-technology, for the explicit purpose of "generating bitcoin value". That is like saying a watch is just a computer, or your cell-phone, or a printing-press is just a machine. The specific reason it is purchased, matters. This is not a retail purchase. They are not buying "Superminer" and selling "Superminer", they are building you a custom "AMT miner".

"No refunds", if implicitly stated, as an agreement and stipulation of the purchase, is not only legal, but also enforced, in all 50 states in the USA.

"As is", if implicitly stated...

"pre-order", also has implicit purpose. In the case of "built to suit", it is an agreement that you know you just paid for something which has yet to be constructed. Same if you agree to have a contractor build you something, like a fire-pit. That is a consumer product, "built to suit", and you pay as a "pre-order", and the "delivery time", is also implied to be an estimate. (Since it "has not been built at the time of the estimate".) Though you could have gotten a fire-pit as a consumer product. Standard consumer laws for that situation, which is 100% similar to all of these miners, do not apply. (When you throw-in, "money making machine", at the judge... They will have a hard time digesting that the "consumer", wasn't aware that there was "high risk" involved with the purchase.)

But I digress... Take it to a judge if you feel the need. Just like all other cases, it will end with nothing more than added expenses to the one taking them to court. Just as what happened with BFL, who I actually believed was in the wrong, from day 1. (BFL operated out of California. However, they showed the judges that the delays were reasonable, and "beyond control of BFL". The key thing for them, was BTC's nature, and the orders specific form, being a "pre-order contract" for "build to suit", productions. California judges are hard on businesses... So winning there, says...)

In any event, the law is still just a guide, for a judge to make a ruling. They have done nothing wrong, or criminal, or unjust. So all of this banter is moot.

This is just one example where there are limitations...
http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/consumers.aspx?id=294

Consumer protection is not just for the consumer, it is also protection from the consumer, for the store/shop. (The contractor should not be "stuck" with a pile of bricks, because you decide after he buys them, not to have him build the fire-pit. Doesn't matter how much liquidity he has... He is not going to give you back your money for the bricks, and be out that money himself, and also be stuck with bricks he doesn't want. You don't want the fire-pit, then sell it after it is built, like you paid him to do.)

Most laws were put in place to provide protections where "there is no agreement", or there is no obvious "assumptions to a purchase", or where someone is just trying to rip someone off. It was clear, at the time of purchase, what everyone was buying, and what it would involve, including delays and limitations to refunds.

Sounds like they do need to clarify some things. (Besides fixing the wrong info on the "additional info" tab, still. )

1: Payment policy (Outlining approved payment methods, and limitations. Such as, "all sales are final", and a contractual agreement to the following #1, #2, #3 and #4 policies.)
2: Refund policy (Outlining the fact that a "pre-order" is a "build to suit", and has limited refund ability.)
3: Order policy (Identifying all "pre-orders", as a "build to suit", product. With any associated risks.)
4: Shipping policy (Identifying "ship dates", of the "pre-orders", which are "build to suit", products, as unencumbered shipping estimates. With links to any public announced NEWS of encumbrance to delays.)

Would that appease your comfort? (It would for me, but I already knew all that obvious stuff.)

Agreeing to facilitate a purchase/exchange/refund by the company, is not illegal. That is, in essence, what happens to any refund. In the situation where a refund by the company is "not within reason", it is not only acceptable, but it is also a sign of good faith. They are not "forcing" anyone to do anything. They are "offering" to ensure that someone does not get ripped-off, while facilitating an order-shift. The money was spent on the hardware that they were asked to buy and build, and now the customer is refusing to accept the hardware which is being built for them. That is already a breach of contract there, of the customer who demanded that they build the unit for them.

Seriously, now you are bitching about people getting refunds.

Sorry dude, but personal hardship is called personal hardship for a reason. It is not only, not others problem, but it not even close to the single situation at hand. They just want a refund, as they admitted, because of buyers remorse. "the difficulty went up faster"... To which, the truth of the matter is that it actually didn't go up as fast as ANY projections. So, thus, they are not only misinformed and incorrect, but also unjustifiably asking for a refund. A refund for a product that they faithfully gave to AMT, to build them a unit, which is being built and shipped, within a reasonable time.

Projected difficulties over the last two months...
35% projected, it went up 31% actual (14 days)
32% projected, it went up 28% actual (14 days)
30% projected, it went up 21% actual (14 days)
28% projected, it went up 19% actual (14 days)
22% projected, ... I guess 15% actual (present)
http://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/difficulty

Thus, it has not "gone up faster", it has gone up slower than any estimates, from even prior to any sales. Now value... that is a whole other beast. But value past and present are irrelevant to a "future sale" and "future earning". What matters is the QTY of BTC produced, via difficulty, and value at the time which you intend to cash-out. Since YOU set value, that is all on you.

But, since BTC is not the only thing this unit is capable of mining... Lets look at others returns...
Greatest return over BTC has been about 350%, average of mining other alts, about 137%, total. So, reward for mining those, in BTC is 350%-137% greater than mining BTC directly.

Those difficulties, compared to BTC... 2,621,404,453
Peercoin: 73,797,540
Freicoin: 1,050,377
Terracoin: 748,654
Emark: 543,986
FireflyCoin: 172,399
AsicCoin: 65,651
Opensourcecoin: 49,975
Joulecoin: 42,067
TekCoin: 18,394
http://www.coinwarz.com/ (1.2THs with modest power-estimates)

If you want the "big list"... http://www.coinchoose.com/
NOTE: BTC is near the bottom of that "big list".
(That is because it is using Radeon 7970's as a base for mining SHA and SCRYPT. It does not reflect ASIC mining on SHA or the new ASIC Scrypt miners. That page is intended for scrypt-miner rigs, obviously. But you can still see the alt-SHA coins percentage value compared to BTC.)

Take your pick, most go above BTC value, and offer easy solo-mining to boot for an added bonus of unstolen/unlost/uncredited block-rewards and block-fees that are all 100% yours.

There is one or two in every crowd. They didn't have a clue going in, and don't have a clue now, and should never have made a purchase. Refunding them would do everyone a favor. It would shut them up, get them off the forum, make an miner available sooner to someone-else, and save them from 20+ annoying emails and phone-calls that are getting in the way of a customer who actually knows what they want, and are trying to get.

But they, and you, are just trolling for the sake of trolling. To get a rise out of the forum-posters or AMT themselves.

P.S. This exact reason is why you can't buy stocks with CC's and paypal. You buy it, you own it. Period! You purchased a BTC coin maker. BTC is a high-risk market, and so is any associated joint-products. This has been known as common knowledge for the past six years. This is not a "standard consumer sale", these are all "high-risk investments". No matter how consumer-like it ever seems to be portrayed. Even BestBuy sells BFL without a refund, unless there is "good reason". (Like hardware failure.)

This problem goes away when the diff gets high, because of a timing-balance.

This is what is happening...

Diff is super-low, I find a block. Before I actually submit it, I am already building the next block onto it.
Now I submit it, but as I submit it, I have already found the next block on that one.
The network accepts the first block, and begins to build, (rejected yours)... Too late, I already have the next solution, now being submitted. Which, by the way, I have also found the next solution for.
I submit that second block, you try to build (rejected yours). My third block solution just submitted, already got approved, and he beat me to the next block... Arg...  Now it is his turn for "luck", while EVERYONE gets rejects, until he "strikes-out", or the diff jumps-up again. Me 3 everyone-else 0-3 rejects. (Aka, poor network distribution)

Diff rises....
I find a block, and submit it. Diff is too high for me to find a solution before someone beats me to it.
I find a block, and submit it. Someone finds the next one.
I find one, then get a luck-streak and hit another immediately. (One reject on the network) Me 3 every-one else 0-1 reject. (Aka, normal network distribution. Still get more rejects because the submit/check/distribute/re-build process itself takes longer than 20 seconds. But, system averages about 30sec due to poor diff adjustments.)

This is where it would actually help the coin if you forced the "can't build on your own block" rule. You would have to wait for your block to have been distributed and built upon, before building the next one. That forces a round-robin effect, and reduces rejects almost entirely. Not to mention it has a slight anti-51% attack gain. Forces the swarm of miners all on one wallet/address to wait one block from another wallet/address, before they can continue an attack.

But the biggest initial gain would come from simply doubling the block-time, and also the reward, to keep the same daily reward. In addition to adjusting block-times on a block-per-block situation. That also stops hoppers, making them leave faster, doing less damage. So they don't ramp-up diff, then jump-off, leaving us to mine the slow blocks with little reward as they cash-out all the abundant coins they just over-mined, which drove-up diff in the first place.

Still, I am glad to see this coin on the charts, and trading. Though, it is cheaper to just buy them for gains, instead of mining them. At the moment. I am doing both.

BTW, at the previous moment, I am near 75-85% rejects... going back to 50-60% now, someone (pool) just jumped onto the coin.

I was running windows version...

As for the blocks being "acceptable", they were within the diff-range.
As for the blocks being "orphaned", or "cut-off by another block", the next blocks didn't come for about 10-20+ seconds later.

Could be a floating-point issue with the windows wallet, or a timing-issue. (comparison of sending windows to a linux-based primary connection.)

However, still I got about 50-60% rejects. Almost as if the other three/four connections I can ever connect to, are on mars, or like they are purposely rejecting mine, until they submit theirs for acceptance.

Problem was ONCE alleviated by shutting down and reconnecting. However, the connections drifted away, and stuck me with the crappy connections in time. Seems the ones that run fine, don't like to talk to others trying to connect. Not sure where the nodes are, but if any are on a satellite-style connection, that would explain the lag. The pings may be 250ms, but the through-put on those horrible connections is buffered by almost 30-40 seconds. (That would be a connection like clear-wire or old DSL links. The downloads are fast, but the uploads are horribly stalled.)

EG, need more American nodes on actual fast connections, like fiber-optic, close to trunk-lines. (NY, TX, GA, CA)

Now you are sounding like a rational human and fellow community member...

I agree with that whole (unclipped) post...

Another thing AMT lacks, is exactly what you outlined above... (Still, I blame that on being noobs themselves.)

Welcome home to the world of bitcoins friend! (Seriously, if you want post-purchase mining tips. I am full of all sorts of madness to help ensure you get a ROI fast.)