Isn't there already a cartel named Bitmain?
And I hope it remains that way lol |
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Big businesses will never get into mining. If they are already making 100M+ why in the world would they want to go into mining? Switching from a known successful business to something unknown with variables you can't control is dumber than dumb. It takes way too long to get your ROI mining. Smart businesses would rather sell you the miners and make the quicker profits. That's why Bitmain and the other manufacturers are more than happy to sell everyone miners at inflated prices.
Companies like fidelity are already into mining as of last year. They would go into mining because they want to make more money. It can be juz a small side investment from them, not a major core biz. The knowhow to do isnt so difficult and a few million to these companies isnt much. |
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There is no "consumer" in this case. Oversupply means all miners lose money. This is not a case where heavier competition leads to better price for consumers, such as a consumer product. Mining difficulty will not affect bitcoin price. Oversupply in this case would mean electricity gets wasted because it makes no profit.
If there are too many miners, the manufacturers cannot sell mining equipment either because the profit will be like 100 USD a month and no one is willing to pay even 1300-1600 USD for a 100 per month machine.
And u wont wanna go into mining because it makes no sense.
The reason oversupply can occur is because there are multiple manufacturers and when the machine is ordered, it can come 2-3 months later. So, people will order when they see the mining profit rate as quite good but by the time it comes 2-3 months later, the return on investment would be a very long time or possibly an impossible time.
Oh but there is. Quoting Costanza..."What Consumer? I'm the consumer". I want to buy a miner, I'm a buyer, I'm a consumer. You want to restrict that because me making money would mean you losing money. Simple as that. And yes, heavier competition always leads to better prices, you mentioned OPEC..what better example? AMD and Intel? Also you seem to lack a bit of understanding of basic economics. Oversupply in this case would mean electricity gets wasted because it makes no profit. Let me ask you something, do you mine BTC with a gpu? no because it's a waste of money and electricity Would a thousand miners mine mazacoin? No, because the reward is so low they would waste money and electricity Would a billion miners mine BTC ? Of course not. They would understand it's unprofitable and they would turn they miners off ... and a miner turned off does not consume electricity and of course does not waste electricity. U are not making sense. There is no consumer. This is not like a product where higher supply leads to lower prices. More mining equipment will not affect btc prices period...... No dude, more mining equipment means more difficulty. People will run their machines even if it makes 50 dollars a month profit to get something back, like with the D3 now. So, higher electricity home miners will make 50 a month on an S9 and the lower electricity players will make 100 a month. That is still bad considering the machine cost 2300-2600 a month. It will take too long to roi and alot can happen before those long months pass. |
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We shouldn't demonize all private resellers of the miners (like for example on ebay). At the end, it is a matter of trust and integrity.
In my country however, it is almost impossible to buy from ebay.com as fees to Europe are a killer. Ebay.co.uk has no fees, but ridiculous prices, something like x4 or x5. Local reseller websites are full of scammers. So for me for example only the official vendor is the choice. Which reminds me that Bitmain hasn't released anything in more than a week (usually they drop something every week).
we should indeed demonize all private resellers, they add nothing to the world, they are a damn plague that make something fair to something unfair A private reseller is taking an unit from somebody that wants it. Well I sent my US wire transfer last week, and yet today my order says "expired and unpaid" ... Anyone else in the same boat? I uploaded my proof of transfer last week as well. I opened a ticket late last week and still no response from Bitmain. Sigh....
JP
My last couple of wires went through and were confirmed within 1-2 days. However, they are on a company Holiday (per sales rep) until January 30th. They are out of the office until the 26th....
On a side note, anyone getting their s9s in yet? If so from which batch are your purchases that are arriving now? I have 19 coming in in March and plan on renting a new space to accommodate growth. Don’t want to pay for February rent if I don’t have to worry about them coming early.
I received my latest shipment ~3-4 weeks early. Darn... I wonder why mine are still unconfirmed then even with the proof uploaded. I've never ordered through US wire before, only BCH which obviously gets confirmed almost instantly. Of course they're on holidays too lol... They should not have released a batch right before and then just close shop for a week with many customers wondering what's going on. Your status is still unpaid? mine changed to paying 3 days after sending the wire, still no paid status.... Yup... says unpaid and expired. Very angry at Bitmain for not responding or making my shipment as paid status. We're not talking a few dollars here and to leave me hanging like this is frustrating!!!!!!!! Why not just use bch next time. Works smoothly and no issues. Cheap transaction cost also. Didn't have the BCH on me at the time, if you select the wire payment you get a 7 day window to pay (i still made sure to wire the money within 2 days) rather than 30 minutes you get with BCH. U should have prepared earlier. Well, u can prepare now |
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We shouldn't demonize all private resellers of the miners (like for example on ebay). At the end, it is a matter of trust and integrity.
In my country however, it is almost impossible to buy from ebay.com as fees to Europe are a killer. Ebay.co.uk has no fees, but ridiculous prices, something like x4 or x5. Local reseller websites are full of scammers. So for me for example only the official vendor is the choice. Which reminds me that Bitmain hasn't released anything in more than a week (usually they drop something every week).
we should indeed demonize all private resellers, they add nothing to the world, they are a damn plague that make something fair to something unfair A private reseller is taking an unit from somebody that wants it. Well I sent my US wire transfer last week, and yet today my order says "expired and unpaid" ... Anyone else in the same boat? I uploaded my proof of transfer last week as well. I opened a ticket late last week and still no response from Bitmain. Sigh....
JP
My last couple of wires went through and were confirmed within 1-2 days. However, they are on a company Holiday (per sales rep) until January 30th. They are out of the office until the 26th....
On a side note, anyone getting their s9s in yet? If so from which batch are your purchases that are arriving now? I have 19 coming in in March and plan on renting a new space to accommodate growth. Don’t want to pay for February rent if I don’t have to worry about them coming early.
I received my latest shipment ~3-4 weeks early. Darn... I wonder why mine are still unconfirmed then even with the proof uploaded. I've never ordered through US wire before, only BCH which obviously gets confirmed almost instantly. Of course they're on holidays too lol... They should not have released a batch right before and then just close shop for a week with many customers wondering what's going on. Your status is still unpaid? mine changed to paying 3 days after sending the wire, still no paid status.... Yup... says unpaid and expired. Very angry at Bitmain for not responding or making my shipment as paid status. We're not talking a few dollars here and to leave me hanging like this is frustrating!!!!!!!! Why not just use bch next time. Works smoothly and no issues. Cheap transaction cost also. |
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Would you want the profitability at that time, or compared to some price?
For example, in Jan 2010, the profitability was negative, even though you were getting coins that could be worth hundreds of thousands at today's prices.
If profitability was negative, it would be better to switch off miners and just buy coins from the market. |
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Seems like demo day came and went as expected.
And as expected, nothing came from it right? Juz hype and talk |
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Sigh and now I regret not getting one. Congrats to buyers.
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What kind of temps do these run at?
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More of a chart where u can juz put your mouse over it and see it.
It does matter because u can tell that when the profit is too high, it tends to go back down.
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The comment is odd. They hope it breaks the bitmain monopoly? If more manufacturers can release chips, it would be low profits and possibly game over for miners....
It is best to not have so many manufacturers for the same thing because more of them just means more miners and thus, more difficulty.
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There is nothing that says Bitcoin MUST continue to exist. I can't think of many currencies that are designed to make money for anybody. They are a convenience in place of a barter system.
It's not obvious that it will be prove to be particularly successful as a currency.
Yes, there is nothing to say bitcoin must exist. If btc dont exist, mining wont either. But thats not related to this topic though. |
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Dude, there are many cartels out there, not just OPEC. Oil or mining biz doesnt matter. Problem here is just supply and profits. Oversupply kills everything. The manufacturers bitmain/ebit/canaan are also MAJOR miners also yes.
Just because there are more, it doesn't mean that it's a good thing. And in case of OPEC we have seen why it's better not to have one, a feeling I'm experiencing every time at the gas station So, if all 3 manufacturers sell lots of miners, their profits from selling machines would be bigger BUT their profits from mining will be small.
If all 3 manufacturers sell lesser miners, their profits from selling machines would be smaller BUT their mining profits would be bigger.
If all 3 manufacturers sell way too many miners, their profits from selling profita would be huge but their mining profits will be nothing or close to it. This is possible, assuming bitcoin price stagnates.
Thus, there is a need to find an optimal point somewhere, one where profit is maximised for manufacturers and customers. Oversupply kills it for everyone in any industry.
It doesn't work that way and I couldn't care less for their profits and losses. Oversupply is good for the customer and as long as I am a customer I couldn't be happier. How would you react if the ISP in your town would say, we can only provide internet for 33% of the houses there? There rest...GFY! The worst case scenario is if too many machines get produced and bitcoin price stagnates, we could see higher electricity price miners switch off their unprofitable machines and low cost miners make say 50-100 usd per month per machine? Problem is that at that price, it could take 23-46 months to get a return on investment on the machine alone....and in such a long time, there is still risk that new machines may make current ones obsolete.
I don't see what is wrong with this "worst case scenario". Is there a law that investment in bitcoin mining should be profitable? No. So you can't mine , don't mine. But don't try to stop me from entering mining because you can't make money out of it. There is no "consumer" in this case. Oversupply means all miners lose money. This is not a case where heavier competition leads to better price for consumers, such as a consumer product. Mining difficulty will not affect bitcoin price. Oversupply in this case would mean electricity gets wasted because it makes no profit. If there are too many miners, the manufacturers cannot sell mining equipment either because the profit will be like 100 USD a month and no one is willing to pay even 1300-1600 USD for a 100 per month machine. And u wont wanna go into mining because it makes no sense. The reason oversupply can occur is because there are multiple manufacturers and when the machine is ordered, it can come 2-3 months later. So, people will order when they see the mining profit rate as quite good but by the time it comes 2-3 months later, the return on investment would be a very long time or possibly an impossible time. |
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BTC mining difficulty will keep skyrocketing. Mining at home will be hard to get back your BTC investment on miners starting this year. If BTC fiat price goes through the roof like in 2017, mining makes (a lot of) profit in terms of fiat. My two cents: BTC mining has become arm race among big mining farms with nearly free electricity, and individuals hold your BTC.
There is no such thing as free electricity though. The thing is bitcoin mining is small compared to other industries. If big companies juz come in with abit more capital, it is possible for mining to be u profitable even for everyone, even with free electricity. News sources have added too much hype and interest into mining. For big miners, wouldnt it be in their best interest to make 300 dollars per machine rather than 50-100 dollars per machine?? There will make alot more. Thus, bitmain/canaan avalon/ebit should sit down and talk about how to not release too many machines (limit supply), rather than all 3 release so many that everyone earns alot less....including bitmain/canaan/ebit who are big miners themselves yes. They need to come together and make a cartel, like how OPEC did in the oil industry to control profits....and i hope they dont forget the to sell to the small miners too. In any case, I dont see how it can work out if they keep attracting more companies to come in. Btc mining has a low barrier to entry and almost every company out there can do it if they want to. I hope to be wrong though. It might be best that they create a btc mining cartel. Just my 2 cents bro cartel agreements are illegal they could go sit for that... Not necessarily. Cartels like OPEC arent illegal and they serve a purpose, one that makes sense. This will make alot of sense too. Oversupply would mean no miner makes money bro and it would be a huge waste. It would just be a huge waste of electricity. |
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It is possible that there is a shortage because too many companies are buying? There has been too much coverage about mining by news sources.
The difference of electricity cost between a home miner with say good 10 cents per kwh electricity cost and a big commercial miner with 5 cents electricity cost is about 50 USD per S9.
So, if the home miner makes ZERO profit on an S9, the commercial guy makes 50 USD per miner profit. But at 50 USD, the cost of ROI for a 2300-2500 USD machine (without shipping and tax yet), is about 46-50 months lol. U cant ROI because too many things happen during that period. No one wins really.
The commercial miner has it better but they need higher returns too.
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As someone who actually soundproof a small room for antminers, let me juz tell u that those foam things wont work period. U probably need 10-13cm of rockwool/soundproof material for the wall but it is not worth it on a per box basis, so, u gotta do a small room for it. U can get professional help.on it but soundproofing isnt cheap. The material density should be 100-200kg per m3.
Also do note the machine sounds are low to medium frequency sounds which are slightly harder to block.
Remember, sound moves like water, any small hole and they will go through it.
And for air intake and outtake, u gotta use ducts with soundproof material in it.
It is best u do your own checkin and consult an engineer to calculate.
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Bitmain - they are rogue and hate Bitcoin. They love their Bcash token instead. They don't have Bitcoin future in high regard. They can rather sabotage Bitcoin and let it tank than help it.
Bitfury - they don't sell their miners to the public, they are secretive, very unlikely they will create cartel with Bitmain and others, why would they change their policy?
Canaan - I can see them actually cooperating with someone else
Pangolinminer, Halong Mining, Ebit - new companies, rising fast, I can see them easily doing deal with other manufacturers for mutual benefit.
Hmmm yeah, it is difficult to get this done but btc price has been stagnating and dropping for awhile. If price stagnates for this year but btc difficulty keeps increasing, it is no good for any miner. There is always a balance, an optimal graph for this to maximise profit for all parties. Sigh, u are right, this is difficult to occur. The major oversupply scenario is very possible if u consider that btc mining industry is only so big....and that every big company out there, not related to mining, can easily pour millions or billions into it with ease. The amount of miners deployed could be a few times more perhaps. It is not that difficult to set up a mining facility after all.... |
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Thus, bitmain/canaan avalon/ebit should sit down and talk about how to not release too many machines (limit supply), rather than all 3 release so many that everyone earns alot less....including bitmain/canaan/ebit who are big miners themselves yes. They need to come together and make a cartel, like how OPEC did in the oil industry to control profits....and i hope they dont forget the to sell to the small miners too. In any case, I dont see how it can work out if they keep attracting more companies to come in. Btc mining has a low barrier to entry and almost every company out there can do it if they want to.
I hope to be wrong though. It might be best that they create a btc mining cartel.
Just my 2 cents
I'm reading this and I might start pinching myself.For real? We have solved all problems not what is left to do is creating a mining cartel and restrict access to miners? No offense, but are you out of your mind? Is not enough that bitmain sometimes acts like it's in competition with the ten plagues of Egypt now we should encourage them? The difference between OPEC and bitmain&co is huge. First, those were countries these are companies. A private company is interested only in profits they don't care one bit about the policies of the government and their strategies. Second, OPEC was about oil, no matter what Japan might have tried they just couldn't produce oil. When it comes to asics, nothing can stop a private company from producing miners, ss long as there is going to be profit, they will try to produce them. Dude, there are many cartels out there, not just OPEC. Oil or mining biz doesnt matter. Problem here is just supply and profits. Oversupply kills everything. The manufacturers bitmain/ebit/canaan are also MAJOR miners also yes. So, if all 3 manufacturers sell lots of miners, their profits from selling machines would be bigger BUT their profits from mining will be small. If all 3 manufacturers sell lesser miners, their profits from selling machines would be smaller BUT their mining profits would be bigger. If all 3 manufacturers sell way too many miners, their profits from selling profita would be huge but their mining profits will be nothing or close to it. This is possible, assuming bitcoin price stagnates. Thus, there is a need to find an optimal point somewhere, one where profit is maximised for manufacturers and customers. Oversupply kills it for everyone in any industry. The worst case scenario is if too many machines get produced and bitcoin price stagnates, we could see higher electricity price miners switch off their unprofitable machines and low cost miners make say 50-100 usd per month per machine? Problem is that at that price, it could take 23-46 months to get a return on investment on the machine alone....and in such a long time, there is still risk that new machines may make current ones obsolete. |
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Running and setting it up isnt that tough. The problem is will mining be good this year. Last year's mining was good only because btc skyrocketed. If it doesnt skyrocketed this year and difficulty continues to climb due to more machines being sold, how will mining be? The china ban may give us reprieve but it wont be permanent. The miners will be moved to another place even if it takes awhile. No one is gonna destroy machines right.
I could be and I hope to be wrong about my worries though.
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I have found a coin that brings 30$ daily with l3+, does someone has some shitcoin that brings more?
U sure? Wat coin would that be. |
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