How would you define 'proof-of-burn'? It's a good suggestion coz it would be much clearer that this isn't CK restarting but a new game entirely that airdropped on CK victims, and that would be easier to market to new punters, but how do you quanitfy the burn?
It's open to suggestion but the most simple calculation would be: deposits - withdrawals = burn Assuming saddam has the depository records it would be possible to calculate a net profit/loss for every player from CK legacy. Obviously, there are some players from the Risto era who made a profit, and under that formula, they wouldn't get a 'victim' airdrop in the new Game, but would that be a problem? Probably they would like to get an airdrop too, but if they made a net profit they didn't experience any 'burn', and they're probably far less interested in Loaf's fork idea than those who lost hundreds of thousands, or even some millions. The overall net losers from saddam's depo figures are obviously desperate to salvage anything they can, whereas someone who made an overall net profit is probably not paying much attention to CK anyway, even if they are still owed b1 debts from Risto's fractional reserve depo, and they could still get other airdrops and bounties if they want to play this new Game anyway. There's no perfect solution to the CK problem. Those who are owed big b1 debts want those paid by any fork/reboot too, but that leaves the elephant in the room - if someone made an overall net profit from their deposit/withdrawals and is owed b1 debts, are they considered to have 'lost' from CK? They would argue they played the Game more skillfully, and those b1 debts represent lost potential winnings. It's clearly open to opinion, but Karl Hungus lost +30K XMR in net deposit/withdrawals, and that's a real unambiguous loss, whereas virtual losses for someone who is actually up in net deposits is very debatable IMO. |
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I'd strongly favor an airdrop NOW, to get more stakeholders involved who have needed skills like game design etc, and offer some bounties from the dev funds risto's accounts to get people involved also. I'd also start a signature campaign, and offer some incentives to get as many of the old players as possible focused on CK again, they have the skillset and Game knowledge you need now, but most are probably jaded and disillusioned from the last 2 years, and permanently lurking for months & months. We need to offer them something to get them excited & involved.
In 2014 nearly every major XMR player was somehow involved with CK, we need to get those people BACK, and now that this fork has some $$$ 'M', we probably need to open up the CK coffers to get people motivated.
+1 Do an airdrop, CK community is comatose and needs a shot of adrenaline to wake up! An airdrop of 5% of M float now would get attention, if combined with a 5% signature bounty I think we'd see a lot more activity around CK. Existing players are carrying a lot of 'baggage' from the 2014-2017 era whatever their opinions might be on Loaf's fork - we need to dilute that negative influence by getting new people who are exclusively focused on the future and not the past. CK legacy is sadly stuck dealing with the Risto debt issue, and it'll be impossible to get unanimous agreement on what to do. If any fork or reboot is going to work it needs to have a solid foundation of common purpose from the early adopters & founders, and I don't see that happening now, most existing players are staying silent, which makes perfect sense given the history here. I'm going to suggest we start from scratch with game design & in-game items, and simply use the 'proof-of-burn' others have mentioned to distribute Game wealth to existing players, and then distribute remaining M and land etc from giveways , airdrops and bounties, obviously keeping a % for dev funds & further marketing etc |
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I have a feeling there is a lot of election activity going on behind the scenes this week, whales rarely telegraph their moves in public without good reason. Probably safe to assume a few deals have been done to lock up some notary node positions already, and nobody will really know who is paying for VOTES unless they need to call on small hodlers, which so far isn't that many candidates. I don't have a problem with consortiums and deals if it produces the desired outcome of well functioning network, which it will.
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Btctalk name boomboom
Rank HERO
Current post count 665
GBYTE address 5UKHUVIAIHHWN55GTX6H36ZLJBDCVGZS
Wear appropriate signature YES
Wear avatar YES
I didn't make it onto the spreadsheet ... |
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Btctalk name boomboom
Rank HERO
Current post count 665
GBYTE address 5UKHUVIAIHHWN55GTX6H36ZLJBDCVGZS
Wear appropriate signature YES
Wear avatar YES
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Anyone interested in pitching in on the game design for the new CK?
Game design isn't something I know much about really, other than what I'm looking for in CK myself which is crypto monopoly played in a medieval setting, combined with a social network and communication features, plus Agora market with ability for players to create their own assets under certain conditions, so players are free to experiment and morph the Game into an infinite number of directions with unlimited possibilities. That's how CK was pitched to me, and it sounded pretty good then and still does now. Many of the coolest features that might drive viral adoption are probably unknown now (we need players to create them), and what we need to do most now is just set the most basic rules & parameters, and let the Game start, and then get feedback from 'active' players. Maybe that is naive, thinking we can restart the Game without knowing all the final game design elements first, but as long as we don't lock in too many settings that can't be changed later, I think what we need most now is something basic people can use asap, even if it's like the spreadsheet version from 2014. I'd strongly favor an airdrop NOW, to get more stakeholders involved who have needed skills like game design etc, and offer some bounties from the dev funds risto's accounts to get people involved also. I'd also start a signature campaign, and offer some incentives to get as many of the old players as possible focused on CK again, they have the skillset and Game knowledge you need now, but most are probably jaded and disillusioned from the last 2 years, and permanently lurking for months & months. We need to offer them something to get them excited & involved. In 2014 nearly every major XMR player was somehow involved with CK, we need to get those people BACK, and now that this fork has some $$$ 'M', we probably need to open up the CK coffers to get people motivated. So, my advice is: 1- start an airdrop & sig campaign now 2- offer bounties and prizes for things we want & need e.g design proposal competition, cherry pick the best ideas, offer multiple prizes 3- restart CK asap, even if what gets restarted is changed later, offer something people can play asap (e.g. health challenge competition for promotions like before) 3- reboot a basic economic engine (buildings, taxes, health), even if it gets changed later, create incentives for early re-adopters Then, once new people are paying attention to CK from airdrops & sig campaigns, and old players re-focus, the social network will reboot, and that's when people will start making suggestions and offering feedback. |
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KH might not come back himself anytime soon, but I invested in Gringotts last year at Karl's invitation, and I'm managing the Gringotts market making account that has the ~460 bil 'M', and the remaining 'Phoenix Trust' shares which Karl setup in 2017 to assetize his large property portfolio. Gringotts account is below https://cryptokingdom.me/player/playerItems/1963PhoenixTrust had a manager (hopefully still active), and PhoenixTrust assets are trading on Agora, so those real estate assets are still in play. afaik he put all his remaining collectible items like coins in a FOC managed by Roopatra, and they also had a joint venture partnership in UnicornCorp which I don't know much about, other than it exists since the beginning of the Game almost. So KH's economic footprint is still 100% active. Okay, awesome to hear that someone is still in touch with Karl Hungus! Just to be clear, by the talk of "economic arguments" it wasn't that we planned on taking over Karl's items/accounts at all. It was more in line with the fact that some people said one reason to keep Risto's items just "there" is that it would work as a way to reduce supply and increase market cap (sort of like Satoshi's 1 million Bitcoins). In response to that, Satoshi only owns 4.75% of the supply cap of Bitcoin. Also, if you factor in lost or inaccessible Bitcoins (lost via boating accidents perhaps), that is maybe another 15%-20% lost of the total supply. So for one we are talking about a lot smaller portion "lost" in Bitcoin and we can't ignore the fact that Bitcoin has pretty much had a use case since the 10k BTC pizza days. CK has had a very minor use case and, looking at the game changelog for the past year, essentially zero use-case during its most recent history. 50% just sitting there won't cut it. Still, even if Karl's land, currency, and items are fully active, that doesn't mean the 50% of player accounts that aren't Risto-related will suddenly come online all at once. Going down the M "rich list," we see plenty of 0.5% - 3.0% supply cap owners that have not been seen for a very long time. So surely 10% - 20% of all currency and items in the game could just "remain" there until accessed by owners (if at all), reducing the supply float. No worries, I didn't ever think anyone wanted to take over Karl's accounts (or anyone elses either), but KH was aware of the issue you mention, of having so many game assets and accounts 'inactive', and that's why he wanted to consolidate and simplify his accounts the way he did. There are a couple of reasons why I think this issue will resolve itself over time though. Firstly, negative M balances pay interest, and if you check the changelog you can see lots of accounts are currently being slowly eaten away by this 'inactivity tax', and this has been part of the Game rules for a while now, and it's a good mechanism to reduce the negative effects of inactive accounts over time, plus it adds realism to game play. Secondly, once building payouts and taxes resume, those inactive property holders asleep at the wheel, or those with insufficient M to keep up with maintenance etc will quickly find their estate losses draining their M balances, and once they hit negative balances they'll rapidly enter an account death spiral of mounting property losses & increasing negative balance interest. Eventually when they can't pay their taxes the Game can seize their assets and auction them off to pay their debts, which again, adds realism to game play. In the CK world HODL will only work for collectibles like coins, and M, and non-perishable items like weapons, other assets like real estate, consumables, NPC's etc will probably offer better returns, but only for active players who 'play' well, and that's what we want to attract new players, opportunities for skillful players to make money. |
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If gringotts takes over from Coinshop as primary market maker it makes the game much more decentralised, previously with risto in control of so many things there was a lot of unavoidable perception of possible conflicts of interest, but now that's gone, and CK has a sizable war chest for development and promotion, awesome!
While I agree that Gringotts market making activities will help CK become less centralized, I should mention that we don't see Gringotts ever taking over from Coinshop functions. Market making is something every player can do, and it's one of the basic strategies players can use to make money in the game, including Game accounts controlled by admins. Gringotts will be happy to see a Game controlled Coinshop active in Agora again when play resumes, hopefully there will be too many markets for one single entity to provide liquidity for. |
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Literally no new player will join a game with around $10 million dollars in "debt" associated with around 50% of the game.
^^This, CK still has great potential, but starting any reboot 10 mil USD underwater makes it almost impossible. Finally, to address any economic arguments that have been mentioned in the past, if we relaunch CK and try to give all old players their in-game currency, land, etc., there is still going to be a huge chunk (20%-30%, possibly more) that probably won't even bother accessing their accounts. For example, we have Hugh Mungus Karl Hungus with 10% of in-game currency, a ton of land, over 30k XMR invested in the game, and he was last seen Feb. 2018 and last posted Sept. 2017.
KH might not come back himself anytime soon, but I invested in Gringotts last year at Karl's invitation, and I'm managing the Gringotts market making account that has the ~460 bil 'M', and the remaining 'Phoenix Trust' shares which Karl setup in 2017 to assetize his large property portfolio. Gringotts account is below https://cryptokingdom.me/player/playerItems/1963PhoenixTrust had a manager (hopefully still active), and PhoenixTrust assets are trading on Agora, so those real estate assets are still in play. afaik he put all his remaining collectible items like coins in a FOC managed by Roopatra, and they also had a joint venture partnership in UnicornCorp which I don't know much about, other than it exists since the beginning of the Game almost. So KH's economic footprint is still 100% active. Karl told me last time we communicated in January that he's not following crypto while he concentrates on his health, but I can contact him in an emergency, and hopefully one day to distribute some returns to his family. I'll be taking care of Gringotts market making operations as the junior partner in KH's absence. |
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The only reservation I have is for the accounts 'Soul' and 'LittleFlock', afaik Risto maintained they were real people...
Based on history, both of these were played by Risto. Many times on the forum, Risto took on the "role" of these accounts. In the game, Risto pretty much used both accounts as his personal reserves, and it is remembered they were utilized during the depo nonsense as well. If, in the deep past, Risto made an arrangement with some outside party regarding these accounts, then they should get in touch with him. I agree with Loaf, those people should get in touch with Risto and get refunded directly from him, they never played these accounts themselves, and probably don't exist anyway. You guys are right, we need to remove Risto's personal obligations to other people in order to move forward, and a fork is the best way to do that. I feel sorry for everyone who lost money, but I guess the rest of us can't do much about that now, not without burdening CK into the future. Crypto is always high risk investment! |
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Treating Project as Fork; Game Takeover of Risto-Related Assets
Overall, the game needs a pathway to growth, which means promotions/marketing to new users, bounties for development efforts, etc. Therefore, what we are going to do is treat this new CK project as a "fork" if you will, meaning that the project/game will be taking over Risto-related accounts and will not be dealing with any of those upaid depository transactions that Risto incurred.
Honestly, there isn't another way forward IMO, and a fork does NOT stop others from trying to continue with the current situation, so nobody is really being disadvantaged, if they don't like the fork they don't have to participate. I say go for it!! The only reservation I have is for the accounts 'Soul' and 'LittleFlock', afaik Risto maintained they were real people, and if that's the case it might be worth trying to get a message to them so they can claim their assets if they wish. I don't think that's very likely, but I'd be more comfortable if we gave them a chance to prove they're real people and not just Risto aliases. Maybe 2 months to claim, otherwise add them to dev funds. Other than that, it's a good plan, and time to move on! |
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-----BEGIN BITCOIN SIGNED MESSAGE-----
NASdaq - please verify my sign and quete
from 11 march 2018
-----BEGIN SIGNATURE-----
bc1qm46m0dgd3qk6ccfed24a63s6p4n83xth4jtvzk
ILf5ueePnn3VId7YHAwqrc1S7DryRWaTnnjLO60v4VoLZSXKSStdjiHs3N5VylUq1lzFfr1FpzBitRz eB60hXno=
-----END BITCOIN SIGNED MESSAGE-----
I am NASdaq, the current user acquired my account around 9 Feb 2018.  The only reason anyone buys a forum account is to trick people, either when trading, or to bypass rules for bounties and signature campaigns. Once you realized you bought a stolen account you had a choice, return it to the rightful owner, or keep it. What right do you have to keep a stolen account, the person who 'owes' you is the person you bought it from, not the original victim of the account theft. If you keep a stolen account and pretend it's yours, you're a scammer! |
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 So original Coinomat and NXT asset investors missed the BCH airdrop, yet again denied benefits from missing out on WCT. How long must this injustice go on for ... yeah yeah, I know the OP is just a supporter, this isn't the official WAVES thread, but you're knowingly supporting Sasha by avoiding this issue and not pressing him to make good by his past supporters, why ... coz you like the $$$, Sasha's yes men don't want to make WAVES for the big boss. |
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Any early adopter 'Leeches' will get wiped out by pools, or other early adopter whales, or new whales.
Define "leeches" Someone who got elected last year using mostly votes from other KMD holders, who pays someone to manage their notary, and who doesn't contribute much to the community. @10USD those people are earning 150K USD a year (less fees) for doing very little, risking very little, and contributing very little. I've been following Komodo since day 1 and I don't see any "leeches". Last election didn't even have 64 candidates, so some people ran nodes on behalf of other non-tech community members to make up the numbers. Not exactly leeching behavior, is it? |
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There'll always be good server admins willing to manage servers for peanuts, and just because they're cheap doesn't make them monkeys. THis is a free market, node managers earnings will follow the law of compensation like for everyone.
"the amount of compensation you receive is in direct proportion to; the need for what you do, your ability to do it, and ease of replacing you"
yeah, I see this attitude all the time now , "I'll just hire an Indian guy to code my application and run my business backend for 10 bucks an hour", it doesn't work bro, not when reliability counts, and here it clearly does. You might get elected once, but your node will be so unreliable you'll always be in the bottom half facing re-election, and nobody will vote for you again. And it's nothing against guys from India either, but unless he/she is into komodo off their own steam, you can't rely on them for 24/7 attention. Hiring cheap from low wage countries only works for one off projects with zero after sale service, and running a notary requires day-to-day attention. Notary nodes need to be run by crypto people with a stake in the success of the project. |
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What is the situation for BTCD holders? How is this not abandonment?
BTCD hodlers had 12 months to swap, by crypto standards that's like a century, really it is. Some other coins make an announcement and give you weeks to swap, or lose your coins, that didn't happen with BTCD. |
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Power is in the hands of KMD owners, guys running nodes for other people will just stand for election themselves now, only whales can afford to pay a node manager, everyone else needs to win votes by doing good deeds and campaigning. Inactive early adopter who aren't whales have no future, maybe one last year for top 30 who don't run this time.
When KMD make next ATH @ +10$ notary earnings are +15k per month, that attracts a lot of attention, running a node isn't coding, just server admin.
I agree, just saying if we go down the route of pools and such they should distribute profits after expenses and fair compensation for the server admin |
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We want a more solid technical base in place as well as a basic, automated gameplay structure around land/property and production/consumption for the houses and NPCs. Once that is done, current plan is to launch a Counterparty (XCP) token for M.
Long-term, looking at additional integration of XCP assets in CK as well as using the XCP blockchain for things like account access, public/private key signing, item ownership checkpointing and the like.
Have you considered using a Komodo assetchain? Has bitcoin level security via 'delayed proof of work' notarization, and we would get our own independent chain, so possible to migrate very easily, plus fees are extremely low, and speed is fast. Would also get access to decentralised exchange, BarterDEX. Isn't XCP too slow and expensive now? A few reasons for XCP. Open to other ideas, but here are my points for now: One, is that there are already platforms like "Book of Orbs" and "IndieSquare" for XCP tokens focused around the card-asset mechanic. XCP has its own decentralized exchange as well. Another is that the majority of blockchain M transactions will be off-chain (as they will be occurring on the CK site). Therefore, fees won't be a concern. Combined with this, we are planning on using the XCP addresses for signing of player accounts, voting, trading security, and the like. Also hashing/checkpointing a full listing of account items (both blockchain and non-blockchain) using the XCP addresses. As XCP is an older technology, there may be better documentation out there as to how to accomplish the above. We also plan to allow other XCP card-assets to be added to CK. In other words, we are planning to open up the game for other XCP assets coming in. Say a person brings over some RarePepe cards. They spend some CK currency to assign in-game attributes to the card (and then that is how it is set for all other blockchain card assets of that type). Maybe someone brings over SALTANDPEPE ( http://rarepepedirectory.com/?p=645). Pays to assign a +10% to consumption efficiency in CK for the card holders. It would work in the reverse as well. Tokenize CK assets by paying for the XCP asset creation fee and have them now move on the XCP blockchain. Overall, we want to get the game to a place where it is moddable by people to create them own gameplay modules. If they want to introduce say a new item and an economy around that item, there are parameters they work around, but they have the freedom to create! Good answer, that makes sense  |
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1500 KMD @ 3.90 = 5850 USD at todays prices, and this is AFTER recent crash .... and another guy does the work. Even if you paid that guy 2K USD a month, you're making ~1000 USD a week - who reading wouldn't want this deal? No risk, no stake, no (compulsory) work.
Don't underestimate the effort required to keep a notary up and running, and it's only going to increase as more assetchains come online with dICO's. We need reliable nodes, and if you pay peanuts you get monkeys. I hope the pendulum doesn't swing too far the other way, Yes, there are some guys sitting back making good money today who pay a manager to run their node, but early adopters always get those amazing deals, like mining bitcoins in 2010-11. If we drive down compensation for running notaries too far, and break things, it's actually worse than having a few early adopter fat cats creaming off the profits. |
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We want a more solid technical base in place as well as a basic, automated gameplay structure around land/property and production/consumption for the houses and NPCs. Once that is done, current plan is to launch a Counterparty (XCP) token for M.
Long-term, looking at additional integration of XCP assets in CK as well as using the XCP blockchain for things like account access, public/private key signing, item ownership checkpointing and the like.
Have you considered using a Komodo assetchain? Has bitcoin level security via 'delayed proof of work' notarization, and we would get our own independent chain, so possible to migrate very easily, plus fees are extremely low, and speed is fast. Would also get access to decentralised exchange, BarterDEX. Isn't XCP too slow and expensive now? |
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