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701  Bitcoin / Press / Re: [2014-12-31] CryptoArticles - Winklevoss Bitcoin Trust Files to Sell 1 Million.. on: January 02, 2015, 06:23:56 AM
In terms of the next rally, I wonder if this would still qualify as part of the smart money phase or the start of the institutional investor phase..?
Agreed. Most developers still don't understand Bitcoin. This has investors terribly confused. They are still concocting schemes of a better mousetrap.
702  Economy / Speculation / Re: Bitcoin made rich just a few but it ruined many on: January 02, 2015, 06:07:06 AM
"Bitcoin made rich just a few but it ruined many"
Look, Bitcoin is zero-sum. For every win, there must be a lose. Somebody has to put in cash and not get it back. Bitcoin needs a lot of suckers losers to keep it going.

They're called HODLrs.
This is not necessarily true. Some people have legitimate needs for money when they sell their bitcoin so even though they lose out on further price appreciation they get something they were in need of.  
This is a difficult concept for some folks. You see it predates the 1980's, the time when credit card offers filled mailboxes from sea to shining see. It was before home equity lines of credit and sub prime lending. There was a dark age in history when people would actually save money.
703  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: January 02, 2015, 04:40:21 AM
Bitcoins killer app is SOV.

If we allow an offramp from MC to SC's, I think that goes away.
I think the whole SC thing is a red herring. If they can't do it without "social structures" then it's not Bitcoin. OTOH, the social structure crowd has plenty of space for developing mining pool "social structures" that incentives decentralization through Delegated 'insert-term-here' technology.

I think you mean Trojan Horse.

Someone is going to lose alot of money. In fact, most people investing in cryptocurrencies are going to lose money. That's how bull markets are.



i mean, we can't bring everyone with us.  it wouldn't be fair.
We'll see if/when SCs are no longer vaporware. Perhaps it will only be the VCs and IPO investors that lose money.
704  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Governor of the central bank of India is speaking positively on Bitcoin on: January 02, 2015, 04:01:31 AM
I 100% agree with everything he says, the amount of fluctuation revolving around BTC is ridiculous, I would rather the price drop to $100 and be stable rather than $1000 and unstable.

$100 is too cheap, and at that price bitcoin will be even more volatile.
Right. The lower the price goes, the larger percentage of swings we see. There was a time when 60% swings in a day were not uncommon. Now it's maybe as much as 10%
705  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Proof of stake mining of bicoin on: January 02, 2015, 03:57:25 AM
Obviously, DPoS does add a "social construct" (or whatever you want to call it) on top of the blockchain.

Whether that improves or hinders distributed consensus is the question.
I tend to think it hinders it by its very nature, because people are inherently
unreliable, and can be manipulated in various ways.


Bitcoin (but not PoW) relies on "social construct" too. Just recall Deepbit or GHash that could conduct a 51% attack.
Yes, the mining pool 'social contract' is hodgepodge at best. It is something that can be addressed by Bitcoin 2.0 contracts.
706  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: Why is no authority after btc-e.com? on: January 02, 2015, 03:51:42 AM
it is a russia based exchange that follow rules of russian govt only
and about US Laws, it didnot apply to whole world they are just US laws not universal laws
That and the owners are allegedly anonymous. I'm not sure how they get away with that.
707  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: January 02, 2015, 03:46:08 AM
Bitcoins killer app is SOV.

If we allow an offramp from MC to SC's, I think that goes away.
I think the whole SC thing is a red herring. If they can't do it without "social structures" then it's not Bitcoin. OTOH, the social structure crowd has plenty of space for developing mining pool "social structures" that incentives decentralization through Delegated 'insert-term-here' technology.
708  Economy / Speculation / Re: I'm All In - Sold My House! on: January 02, 2015, 03:35:47 AM
I mean that in an economic crisis, you will trade all your precious bitcoins for a potato.
Let's go with that. Ever heard of bank runs? Banks will close. There will be no safe place for your money. Food? Better have plenty ammo, Prepper. Crisis is never global. Bitcoin will still be hashing somewhere. Your keys are easy to hide and keep safe, but it's still a good idea to have some ammo.
709  Economy / Speculation / Re: I'm All In - Sold My House! on: January 02, 2015, 03:27:03 AM
What about these economic collapses that are happening to various countries around the world at the moment?

There could be a chance that investing in stocks/bonds is like burning your money in x years time.

In such a scenario where worldwide wealth was wiped out, I assure you bitcoin would suffer worst of all. As we've already seen in real world scenarios, bitcoin is not acting as a hedge for wealth storage.

"Aye, we talked about it. Have you ever been in a city under siege? Maybe this part's not in your books. See, it's not the fighting that kills most people; it's the starving. Food's worth more than gold. Noble ladies sell their diamonds for a sack of potatoes. Things get bad enough, the poor start eating each other. The thieves, they love a siege. Soon as the gates are sealed, they steal all the food. By the time it's all over, they're the richest men in town."

-Bronn, Game of Thrones.
Do you mean the siege is coming as an economic crisis, or do you think Bitcoin is under seige? Both?
710  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: would you buy a marked quantum scifi bitcoin for above par? on: January 02, 2015, 03:19:31 AM
Yes. Bitcoin is the energy backed currency many have been looking for. We only need to make circuits that work at near 100% efficiency in converting electricity to heat and then harness that heat for more useful work.
711  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: January 02, 2015, 01:51:10 AM

No. He said that EVERYTHING approaches zero profitability in a free market. Your hypothesis then is it's not worth doing anything in life because everything is worthless.

I was just trying to gauge where Justus's head was at.  Sometime's it's hard to tell with his type.  Adam says he's OK, but I'm not so sure.  His response tells me that he's probably mostly just another pumper.

Oh well...old stackers like the doc and I, if we are being honest with ourselves, recognize that we owe a lot to the pumpers and the 'principled Libertarian' shtick is hands-down the most effective in Bitcoinland for whatever reason.  Justus rocks here.

Hey J-man:  You pump 'em and I'll dump 'em homey.

The cool thing is that someone else is paying him at least enough to keep his pantry stocked with Top-Ramen, though with Monetas/Concentric/whatever it seems quite possible that it may be me in one of those 'your tax dollars at work' type of deals.


I will vouch for Justus. I know him personally and we've had many discussions. He is a white hat. He is much younger than me and I don't agree with his politics, but every generation must make their own path.
712  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Can bitcoin allow people to choose a PoS hard fork? on: January 02, 2015, 01:18:00 AM
PoS will never go anywhere. It's a dead discussion.
713  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: January 02, 2015, 12:28:20 AM

"They'll come at you sideways. It's how they think. It's how they move. Sidle up and smile, hit you where you're weak." - Shepherd Book
714  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: [ANN] the Internet of Coins on: January 01, 2015, 11:14:52 PM
After reading all the flacknfodder between Counterparty and Ethereum, in came the Bitcoin thumpz.
Bitcoin only!! Bitcoin as dictaturr fer life! Bla, bla, so then suddenly I had a meme..

I hope the whitepaper will be more than memes and bring something new to the table.
715  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: January 01, 2015, 10:12:46 PM
Why don't you, cypherdoc, and whoever else be a sport and answer my theorem for a change:

  "Bitcoin mining will always approach non-profitability due to unlimited supply."
What is this, econ 101?

Of course Bitcoin mining will always approach non-profitability - in a free market the production of all products and services always approaches non-profitability. That's what markets do.

Absent some kind of forceful outside intervention, the price of all services in an economy approaches the cost of production plus a profit margin that tends toward zero over time.

Why would you even bring this up like it's some kind of great revelation or a problem of any kind whatsoever?

So then you are aware that Bitcoin has effectively no long-term support potential as a foundation in it's presently advertised form and are not just another clueless dupe.  Good for you!  I can understand how it's one of those 'Houston, we have a problem' things that one would wish to defer dwelling on for whatever reason or set of reasons.  Chief among them until one has pocketed what one calculates to be the maximum potential profit.

For my part, I took some profits in case the shit hit the fan in an unpleasant way, but I also retained a bunch on the hopes that something would come along to rescue the system.  Sidechains seem to me to have that potential and do so in a way that preserves the aspects of Bitcoin that I like.  Centralization under a handful of large corp/gov players could also end up making me a dime, but I'd prefer the former route for philosophical reasons.


No. He said that EVERYTHING approaches zero profitability in a free market. Your hypothesis then is it's not worth doing anything in life because everything is worthless.
716  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: January 01, 2015, 03:18:09 PM
Bitcoin 315: "he that has bitcoins shall have eternal blockchain."
717  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Proof of stake mining of bicoin on: January 01, 2015, 01:02:41 PM
Sfinder was found and voted out successfully. 

It is almost impossible for full pay delegates to be the same person.  Unless they are superhuman and able to complete multiple jobs at the same time.  You can view the work delegates are doing.  They have to be transparent and productive or they are voted out.  It's simply not possible to all be the same person because 1 person cannot do 101 jobs.  And there are huge incentives to not do this.

Delegates are one of the great features of BitShares.  It's creating a thriving community and a whole new type of decentralised organisation.  Not to mention the unique identity v
erifying features being developed.   DPOS is an amazing, fascinating and powerful invention which is going to re-structure society itself.  Constructive criticism is always welcomed, but please keep it real.

That's the most ridiculous thing to say in the internet age. Of course one person can do millions of procedural tasks at once. If you can't write software to do it you hire cheap tech support in Mexico or India and script them. Break them up into teams for each delegate pseudonym and offer compensation based on productivity.

Point taken there can be subcontracting. 

Mathematically proving delegates are different people isn't necessary.  Incentives work strongly against any attacker.  They would have to spend months developing (via subcontracting or doing it themselves) a bunch of features for BitShares to win voter approval to take multiple positions or they would have to buy a massive amount of BTS to be able to vote themselves in, only to then attack themselves by attacking the network.  The cost of attack is already very high.

There is nothing necessarily wrong with having a social construct be part of the mix.  Lets compare it to massive warehouses filled with asics run by a handful of mining pools.  Both methods are worthy experiments and no one knows what POW or DPOS will lead to in the future.
Quote
only to then attack themselves by attacking the network.  The cost of attack is already very high.
But isn't the attack a double spend? It can more than make up for lost revenue. If you run enough double spend scams for awhile you can always sell your position down and quietly exit.
718  Economy / Speculation / Re: January approaching. Bull run about to begin? on: January 01, 2015, 10:53:15 AM
I wouldn't be surprised to see an almost mirror image to 2014.
719  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: January 01, 2015, 09:29:48 AM
re: Justus, Adam Back

The reason Monetas contracted Justus to help us build the voting pools is because he is a Bitcoin purist. Justus keeps us honest. And I think that is the same role he is playing here in this thread. Bitcoin is his highest value.

And I think what Justus is saying is, that a framework needs to be developed for any changes to Bitcoin. I think he's right that it's not good enough for changes merely to be "open source, open IP." There is a potential conflict of interest, and there is an easy way to put any concerns to rest.

Justus said it best:

Quote
I think this concern could be minimised if the soft fork needed to support sidechains was part of a larger clarification of the Bitcoin protocol development process.

If there was a clear process that explained what kinds of changes to the protocol are acceptable, and what kinds are not, combined with a development roadmap and a transparent sequence of steps for adding things to it, I think there would be less reason for Bitcoin users to worry about Blockstream and sidechains.

I really don't think that's much to ask. Do you, Adam?

I think Adam is a good guy with good intentions. Certainly he deserves respect -- he has earned it. All around. He's a brilliant guy and he's been working for good for a long time. We all owe him our thanks at the very least for his invention of hashcash, his work at Zero Knowledge, etc. And I know Justus can be blunt; Adam has been very graceful in this thread.

Yet it is true that Monetas is not asking for any forks in the Bitcoin protocol. Blockstream is. That's why these questions are being raised. There is an easy way to put them to rest.
With respect to Bitcoin's development road map versus the world's vast array of financial relationships, in order to receive universal acceptance it usually best to keep language and protocol as simple as possible with enough functionality to serve the majority. Overly complex or superfluous language makes some people suspicious. Projects that offer Turing-complete complexity are empowering, but not always welcome. Having said that, there is nothing stopping meta applications from improving Bitcoin's footprint. In defense of Justus' pit bull defensiveness, sometimes strength of conviction is enough to clear the smoke from a conversation mired in nuance. While I often disagree with him on many things, I admire his brevity and focus.
720  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: January 01, 2015, 09:01:19 AM

That qualifies him for political office.
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