AM does not need to do so himself. Any big trusted shareholder can issue AM assets with Counterparty.
This is true. It would be awesome to see an Asicminer-direct-share-backed asset issued on Counterparty. Maybe ThickasThieves would be up for the task? This would be the first "Bitcoin blue chip" asset on a decentralized exchange. One small step for TAT, one giant leap for Bitcoin securities. No, TAT is running a pass through and his profit relies on the commission. Listing on a decentralized exchange removes any need for the middle man, so it just needs Friedcat and all the investors. |
|
|
|
One quick question:
Is there anyway to transfer some shares from A to B? I think this is quite important for existing stocks to import their shares.
Its the same command as send, but replace asset=XCP with asset=[name] quantity is however much you want to send Thanks. Then it's cool and importing an existing asset is as simple as running a simple script. |
|
|
|
|
One quick question:
Is there anyway to transfer some shares from A to B? I think this is quite important for existing stocks to import their shares.
|
|
|
|
AM does not need to do so himself. Any big trusted shareholder can issue AM assets with Counterparty.
This is true. It would be awesome to see an Asicminer-direct-share-backed asset issued on Counterparty. Maybe ThickasThieves would be up for the task? This would be the first "Bitcoin blue chip" asset on a decentralized exchange. One small step for TAT, one giant leap for Bitcoin securities. In case any of you missed it in my old rants, I don't actually believe decentralized exchanges are a good thing. Even AM's own exchange, which they began creating last year, has many inconveniences, and, is ultimately centralized anyway. I don't even believe decentralized exchanges are sustainable in any way that provides valuable purpose. Most amount to moving trust from one place to another, or breaking trust into a few parts. Trust is always required, efficiency is always required, resources are always required. These things all converge as order in chaos. That order is centralization. I'm not a part of the "decentralize everything!" parade, but I do believe in the concept of "empires to ashes". Eventually a thing becomes so central and powerful it collapses, whether it be by its own lack of agility, or by a paradigm shift. For many people, Bitcoin is the first time they experienced a paradigm shift in a very long time. It's exciting to have your world rocked, but Bitcoin is not a casting call for paradigm-shifters. Way too many people think we now have the power to break apart anything we can get our hands on, and turn into little pieces that somehow work better. Decentralization is not your hammer, and stock exchanges are not your nail. I can appreciate people trying new things, but an economy is more than protocol, sorry. I'm not saying the theory of a Colored Coin exchange is impossible, I'm saying the usefulness of it is. Any fruits of Colored Coin, Master Coin, etc, will do nothing more than appear decentralized in concept, and behave centralized in practice. Even Bitcoin itself only thrives through where it is efficiently "centralized": mining pools, exchanges, venture capital, this forum, etc, etc, etc. Having to trust 3 people instead of 1 is not decentralization. Having to trust that system instead of this one, is not decentralization. Do you REALLY want every business under the sun "IPO"ing? Is every random business truly qualified to run its own security? So what if you can trust the decentralized exchange, none of the issuers will be easy to trust, now will they? How do you trust what you are buying and whom you buy it from? If you really want to mitigate trust issues in this world, why aren't you all fighting to get people to use a/the Web of Trust ( http://bitcoin-otc.com/trust.php)? Why are people finding ways to pervert bitcoin with burns, when they should be making a decentralized web of trust that is more friendly and easy to use? Doesn't anyone realize how big "digital identity" will be going forward? We don't need more tinkering with reinventing Bitcoin, we need an agile identity/trust service. Think about it. Sure we have the current WoT, sure we have +Trust in this forum. But the WoT is not easy to use for beginners, nor is it a convenient means of auth/trust for online services. And, the forum's +Trust feature is much too centralized, weak, and narrow in focus. Finally, everyone, please don't be an idiot and go "burning" coins, or locking them into some silly meta protocol forever. Anyone that's been around for more than a couple months should know by now to just hold onto your damn bitcoins. That's all you have to do.Your reasons (if any) seem not so convincing to me. Let's put general case aside, and just focus on AM shares. If AM is listed on a decentralized exchange such as Counterparty, is it helpful? 1) trust. We just need to trust a) the issurer (of course we trust) b) the protocol and the client (it's open source). No need to trust any buyer/seller or operator. The trades and dividends are all guaranteed by the protocol. There's no one running the exchange. The system is there as long as everyone has the client and BTC blockchain is there. 2) convenience. The issurer just issue an asset and put an initial order with IPO price, then sending dividend is just one command. For existing stocks like AM, just transfer shares to existing holders with a simple script. No need to keep all the holder list, it's embedded in the blockchain and will never be lost. 3) latency. Yes, you may need 10 minutes to match an order and waiting longer to confirm. That's acceptable to most investors, even day traders. How many people flip more than once per hour? At last, as a main fund manager, telling others to just hold bitcoins seems interesting. If everyone just holds the bitcoin, there will be no stocks, funds, and bonds. What's the difference between burning some bitcoin to get some shares of a decentralized exchange and sending some BTC to you to get some shares of certain stocks? |
|
|
|
|
Small miners join a pool so actually there's no much difference. Now mining is already in the hands of big pool operators.
|
|
|
|
By the way, I have a question - how exactly XCP will support paying in BTC for asset or XCP?
The offered BTC will be matched to offers on asset/Dex, and once the buyer sends the bTC to seller address, the seller will then send back XCP or asset shares back to the buyer BTC address?
I think there's a sendBTC command to complete a matched order involving BTC. |
|
|
|
Your credibility is zero. There is code.
I am sure BitThink knows there is code at work. His point was that he thinks progress could have been faster. Do you disagree? I think even J.R will agree to that, he left his job to speed development. From the Master Protocol Developer Updates it those seem that the developers are working double-overtime. Thank you, peled1986. Really appreciate your help in clarification. |
|
|
|
To be fair XCP was also a hurry launch, counterpartyd code is barely held together. Their approach is to release alpha product and let users test with real xcp. Reference client shouldn't be done in python as library dependency issues, plus it's not type safe, the client has been crashing many times due to runtime exceptions, silly bugs, etc. I hope the community help rebuilding it as something self-contained like a jar package.
I agree with you. Actually I prefer Go to Java. I planned to rewrite the whole counterpartyd with Go, but failed due to lack of time. It, however, may not take a lot of work. I guess an experienced Go programmer (better than me) could finish porting in less than a week. They initially try to test XCP with test BTC, but found nobody is testing cause almost no one is using test BTC. Building test XCP based on real BTC, like MSC did, could be a better idea. |
|
|
|
Actually there's no code, let alone solid code. Your credibility is zero. There is code. This proves your understanding of the situation is totally corrupt and biased towards complaining. They built four implementations - to rigorously prove the protocol produces the same result no matter who is interpreting the rule. This took some time. They ended up removing shitloads of ambiguities which could become problematic later. Now, with their experience getting stung by the bitchy public, they aren't going to release the DEx in such an 'alpha' state. But rather, they will make the DEx a little more consumer ready on the release date. This takes time. If you say one more time that the coders are not working hard, I am going to personally fly to your city and kick your ass. They are all working double-overtime to make this thing work and raise the price of your miserable holdings. You probably only own 3 MSC. Now shut the fuck up and help by contributing to the project. Whadda dick. actually I am one of the investors (a small one) myself.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying anything like the developers are not working hard. I'm just saying they could be hired full time long ago and then the progress could be much faster. In that case, the Dex would've not been in an 'alpha' state at all. I respect all the developers of Mastercoin for their hard working, but remember they were doing their hard working within their precious leisure time. They can only have the chance to leave their day jobs now. The four implementations you mentioned were all come from community, not by full time developers. Some of them are even not for bounties. I credit those to the great community, rather than the foundation which has more than enough funds. When I said there's no code, I mean the reference implementation of Mastercoind (written in Go). I know Tachicoma and his friend will work on it, but since they haven't left their previous jobs yet, so I don't think there're much progress yet. I will be happy if I am wrong. BTW, I don't like personal attacking like you did. I own significantly more than 3 MSC, but that does not matter. Owning more MSC will not make my statement true, less not make it false. I just try to evaluate the current situation as objective as I can. No hype and no FUD. |
|
|
|
As you already pointed above, they talked too much (media presence, conference talk, ...) but there're much less real work on coding (there's not even official mastercoind) be done. All real codes are come from the community (Mastercoin-explorer, ...). Neither JR nor Ron is a professional programmer, and yet they decided to recruit full time developers only on last December.
Building a solid platform is the goal, not rushing to market to impress the trading community to pump up the price. If you like the quick buck, go with one of the projects which are all glossy brochures like NXT. I am not sure whether you have got me wrong, because what I said was exactly there were too much marketing and too less work on a solid platform for Mastercoin. Maybe you mean the slow progress is because they want to build a solid platform. Actually there's no code, let alone solid code. There're no one working on an official parsing program until Tachochima published his mastercoin-explorer. Then he and his friend was just recruited as full time developers last month, and they both said they cannot completely leave their current job until this February and the timeline of Mastercoind can only be determined then. Moreover, the price of mastercoin was pumped from 0.01 to 0.25 when there's nothing solid available, and even a simple sending is troublesome. Do you think this is a good example for you to show 'Building a solid platform is the goal, not rushing to market to impress the trading community to pump up the price.'? BitThink i agree with every word. The good news is that J.R and MSC Foundation Team also agree with you and thus they are speeding things up. Competition is healthy for MSC. Thanks peled1986. Actually I am not blaming anyone. The slow progress was just an unfortunate fact, and fortunately now both J.R and Ron have realized this and have recruited full time developers. Later is always better than never. I wish all the best to Mastercoin project, and actually I am one of the investors (a small one) myself. |
|
|
|
As you already pointed above, they talked too much (media presence, conference talk, ...) but there're much less real work on coding (there's not even official mastercoind) be done. All real codes are come from the community (Mastercoin-explorer, ...). Neither JR nor Ron is a professional programmer, and yet they decided to recruit full time developers only on last December.
Building a solid platform is the goal, not rushing to market to impress the trading community to pump up the price. If you like the quick buck, go with one of the projects which are all glossy brochures like NXT. I am not sure whether you have got me wrong, because what I said was exactly there were too much marketing and too less work on a solid platform for Mastercoin. Maybe you mean the slow progress is because they want to build a solid platform. Actually there's no code, let alone solid code. There're no one working on an official parsing program until Tachochima published his mastercoin-explorer. Then he and his friend was just recruited as full time developers last month, and they both said they cannot completely leave their current job until this February and the timeline of Mastercoind can only be determined then. Moreover, the price of mastercoin was pumped from 0.01 to 0.25 when there's nothing solid available, and even a simple sending is troublesome. Do you think this is a good example for you to show 'Building a solid platform is the goal, not rushing to market to impress the trading community to pump up the price.'? |
|
|
|
Has anyone checked out this decentralized exchange protocol built on the Bitcoin blockchain yet? Here's the Counterparty block explorer with a list of the assets created so far: http://blockscan.com/asset.aspxThe Counterparty protocol supports dividend payments too. It would be awesome to see a company like Asicminer float an asset on Counterparty's decentralized exchange. Might solve problems with centralized exchanges like btct.co or bitfunder.com. Depends who's running it, how it works, how much control the asset issuer has, what happens if it disappears one day etc. Do you have any personal experience with it? The exchange itself is a decentralized protocol built on the Bitcoin blockchain, so nobody has to run it. I don't think Counterparty can disappear as long as the Bitcoin Blockchain doesn't disappear. I'm synching up my bitcoin-qt blockchain right now, installing the Counterparty client and testing its features. There have already been a few decentralized, trustless trades of BTC and XCP completed: http://blockscan.com/order.aspx?p=0You still have to trust the asset issuer, just not the exchange itself. It would be awesome if Asicminer transfer over to a Counterparty. It would solve so many headaches like dealing with direct share transfers or unreliable centralized exchanges. EDIT: BitThink summed it up better than I did^^ Thanks.  Just needs to wait until it's more mature and there's a user friendly web client, suppose to be released soon. |
|
|
|
Has anyone checked out this decentralized exchange protocol built on the Bitcoin blockchain yet? Here's the Counterparty block explorer with a list of the assets created so far: http://blockscan.com/asset.aspxThe Counterparty protocol supports dividend payments too. It would be awesome to see a company like Asicminer float an asset on Counterparty's decentralized exchange. Might solve problems with centralized exchanges like btct.co or bitfunder.com. Depends who's running it, how it works, how much control the asset issuer has, what happens if it disappears one day etc. Do you have any personal experience with it? It's decentralized, so no one is running it. Issuer can create any asset and pay dividends through it. All the information is written in the BTC blockchain, so nothing will disappear unless BTC disappears. |
|
|
|
I keep seeing people incorrectly quoting XCP @ 0.01 BTC as "half of mastercoin"
This is off by a power of 10. Mastercoin is valued @ around 0.1 BTC right now
If XCP was "half" mastercoin it would be about 0.05 BTC per XCP, or about
5 times what some are saying it is right now.
They probably mean in market cap. Yes exactly that. Overall marketcap is really all that matters and since there are about 5 times as many XCP as mastercoins, the math does work out. Someone pointed out that mastercoin marketcap used to be almost double what it is now. One theory is that the drop is due to XCP! If that is the case, then it goes to reason that the fair market value for XCP is whatever the difference between mastercoin marketcap used to be and now, adjusted for overall market price changes with comparable altcoins. Drumroll please... Using that method of valuation gives XCP an overall valuation of about $20 million or $7.5 per XCP, which is .009 BTC. Above numbers are very rough, just ballparking figures of ~$70 mil mastercoin marketcap down to $46 million, but the overall market is a bit lower than when we saw $70 million mastercoin marketcap. So both methods end up at around the same price. This is why I was comfortable if the first trades happened at that price. I think there was over 5 BTC that has traded at 0.01 BTC. From here the price is up to the market, but at least there is a sane reference point. Do not listen to anybody that says that you don't deserve to make an instant 1000% gain. The same was said about NXT. As people kept complaining, the price kept going up. The XCP devs have given us all a gift! If somebody gave you a $10 bill for every dollar bill you burned, what price should you sell the $10 bill for? What obligation do we have to sell a $10 bill for anything less than $10? Now if you are the sensitive type, be ready for trolls to start calling you names, but the fact is we all took a plunge into the unknown. We still don't know what will happen (well OK we actually do, but we can pretend we don't know the devs will fix all the bugs, clients will come out, Mac will be supported, etc). I estimate the available supply of XCP to be pretty low. Maybe the guy that burned 60 BTC right at the end will sell 10 BTC to recoup his capital with a little cushion, but most people have 1500 XCP or less. It will be nice to cash out and make thousands of dollars in less than a month, but it wont be life changing. Let's project a nice high end scenario. XCP dev team get all the required software out. Then they start adding a bunch of new features. XCP gets onto coinmarketcap top 10. Its trading on btc-e.com. It gets millions of dollars of free press from the crazy ~$2 million proof of burn. Many XCP oriented projects start and an entirely new betting ecosystem develops. The same happens with the dividend ability. Compare that to what LTC brings to the table. James I just don't understand why those buyers did not burn couple days ago, and now will spend 10x to buy XCP. Nothing significant has happened. It does not make sense to me. It will be another story if there's a very user friendly web client. Therefore, I don't expect any meaningful price until then. |
|
|
|
As long as the order is not matched by others, there's no problem. I think the bug can be fixed later, and your XCP will be back because you balance only depends on how the client parses the blockchain. It only gets messy when a cancelled order is still considered valid and get matched by others. However, it's better to be confirmed by the developers. |
|
|
|
Why not use counterparty? This makes no sense. For vast majority of people, they dont have counterparty or they are not able to run counterparty They just want to buy it on an exchange If current market price within counterparty is .013, then as soon as there is external exchange it will go to .02 btc and above 0.0013 Wait you are saying 750 xcp per btc is available inside counterparty? Does it run on mac notebook? No mac support yet for counterpartyd, although the web wallet under development will obviously work with anything. How much xcp is available at 750 per btc price? Would it be possible to do a manual transaction for it? You can check it on blockscan.com: http://blockscan.com/order.aspx 2248 XCP now. Anybody wiling to fill the trade and do escrow trade for me? How about install Linux on virtual box in your Mac? |
|
|
|
Why not use counterparty? This makes no sense. For vast majority of people, they dont have counterparty or they are not able to run counterparty They just want to buy it on an exchange If current market price within counterparty is .013, then as soon as there is external exchange it will go to .02 btc and above 0.0013 Wait you are saying 750 xcp per btc is available inside counterparty? Does it run on mac notebook? No mac support yet for counterpartyd, although the web wallet under development will obviously work with anything. How much xcp is available at 750 per btc price? Would it be possible to do a manual transaction for it? You can check it on blockscan.com: http://blockscan.com/order.aspx 2248 XCP now. |
|
|
|
@BitThink
That's not what he said. He actually said exactly the opposite of how you interpreted it. The reason he didn't sell any until now was because he wanted higher price, more in line with Mastercoin potential, but his presence was strongly required by the project, thus he had to sell now at this very low price so that he could quit his job.
You will find many other posts by him enforcing my point.
Ok, my interpretive may be not accurate. Now I realized that JR is not satisfying with the slow progress himself and he want to become full time to improve it as soon as possible. Don't know how slow the project was versus others. The team did have quite some decent media presence, Ron Gross and David Johnston. Several appearances during Bitcoin conferences and Let's Talk Bitcoin shows. Of course, this is the visible side of things. Sure, they could have focused more on the user friendliness and such but in a project such as this you have to prioritize. Project going slow or fast wasn't the reason for JR, I think. Ron tried to convince him for a while that's worth quitting day job and focus on Mastercoin, since here is the real potential, not some crappy wage slave job, working for others. So he finally did that and project can move full sail ahead. They just need a full time marketing guy, I'd say and more focus on user friendliness, not linux wallets 'n crap like that. Sure, they are important to have, but that's secondary. Mainstream adoption and getting as many people onboard as possible is more important. As you already pointed above, they talked too much (media presence, conference talk, ...) but there're much less real work on coding (there's not even official mastercoind) be done. All real codes are come from the community (Mastercoin-explorer, ...). Neither JR nor Ron is a professional programmer, and yet they decided to recruit full time developers only on last December. |
|
|
|
@BitThink
That's not what he said. He actually said exactly the opposite of how you interpreted it. The reason he didn't sell any until now was because he wanted higher price, more in line with Mastercoin potential, but his presence was strongly required by the project, thus he had to sell now at this very low price so that he could quit his job.
You will find many other posts by him enforcing my point.
Ok, my understanding may be not accurate. Now I realized that JR is not satisfying with the slow progress himself and he want to become full time to improve it as soon as possible. Therefore, anyway my point is that the progress of Mastercoin is too slow and that is the main reason of current low price. I invested more on MSC than XCP, so actually I really want to see the success of Mastercoin too. The current situation, however, disappointed me a lot. Think about how long the white paper has been published, how long the fund collection has been finished, and how many real solid codes have been done? Now look at the progress of XCP, which has no fund (at least no fund from the investors) at all and is just announced for 1 month. If only two developers can do so much in such a short period, is it reasonable for us to expect much more from the Mastercoin project? |
|
|
|
The mastercoin destributed exchange in testing phase (which is basically open BETA now) beats the hell out of that crappy alpha implementation.
You tried them both and speak based on knowledge? -i guess not until March you can test and learn a lot using the counterparty protocol. I hope too that the mastercoin destributed exchange will be great to use. Watch this please https://masterchest.info/walletdemo/ and tell me if that early pre-Alpha stuff they've got going comes close? Mastercoin has big early lead versus most of these other projects. So few people can see that for some reason and buy into hype and BS promises. Talk is cheap you know. What you can see is just a UI. UI is the simplest part of a distributed exchange. Whether there's bugs or security issues needs to be tested extensively. Buying into a UI is not much different from buying into hypes and words. Counterparty is in early alpha, but at least we can see all the codes and everyone can contribute their efforts to improve it. Everyone can contribute to Mastercoin also. They have plenty of MSC and Bitcoin bounties. Be sure it's not just the UI. We'll find out soon enough this March. I'm not saying it's just UI. I mean we can only see the UI, but not the code. We cannot judge the quality of this exchange by only looking at its UI. We have to know whether there are bugs and security issues, but we cannot know until the exchange is tested extensively. Moreover, the reference implementation of Mastercoind will not be available soon, so we don't even know how accurate the core function, parsing the blockchain, is. I know there will be two developers work on the Mastercoind full time, but they will not be full time until April and only by then we can know when the Mastercoind will be ready. The current low price is not just because of the massive selling of JR. The slow progress is the main reason. JR sold his holding because he did not have confidence to sell them at 1.7 in near future any more due to the competitions. This is said by himself in his first post about his selling and I believe that one more than the reasons he stated in later posts. My Mastercoin friends,
Given all the competition we've seen in this field lately, I no longer feel I can afford to wait for a sky-high price I like before selling some Mastercoins and jumping into the fray full-time. (As you all know, I've never sold a single one of my own Mastercoins, and I've been persistently disdainful of the market price so far).
|
|
|
|
|
Show Posts
