TL;DR; but i did read this. However, under Hong Kong law, Bitfinex will not be able to force creditors to accept its proposal. Unlike in the US and Japan, Hong Kong does not have a system of bankruptcy protection to facilitate a Bitfinex reorganization. By arguing that Bitfinex is insolvent, creditor lawsuits could force Bitfinex into liquidation where creditors can take control. and of course no one has to accept it, i dont believe going to court would yield a better result or less of a haircut to BFX's users, but wtf do i know. i would imagine the bigger players from BFX are talking to their lawyers now, it wont be long until we know for sure if they will take the settlement or go to court. |
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i was afk. [edited out]
its unclear what the BFX token will represent they clearly state that has not be decided, but appear to point toward shares representing some % of bitfinex which may or may not be dividend paying shares, based on some % of BFX net profits going forward. this assumption is based on this line: for shares of iFinex Inc. if that is the case then i would imagine these tokens will not start off at zero i would assume an IPO at a fixed price, followed by a open market for buy/selling "shares of iFinex Inc." i look forward to learning more about these "shares of iFinex Inc.". i'll consider the terms and conditions and might actually be a buyer, if i can.... Adam: Largely we agree; however, I would like to clarify a couple of points (and maybe even differences in our thinking). you seem to be getting caught up in my assertion that the BFX coins (or the items that you want to emphasize as "shares" ) is going to have zero or near zero value at the outset... it all depends on what these tokens represent.... if they represent a share in their company i dont understand why you would think its value would be 0. Sure, BFX can structure the value of the BFX coins at whatever they like, yet in the end, since the BFX coins initially represent debt, they are going to represent the total 36% shaving that account holders are going to take.
it is my understanding that they will not really represent debt, but rather these tokens ( whatever their exact meaning is ) are payment in full of the 36% loss. Hypothetically, one way of giving value to the coins is to recognize that the total loss was only 30%; however, since BFX wants to give some value to the coins, from the start, they use the additional 6% to create coin value out of the gate. I personally think that would be dumb to give the coins very much value, but yeah, they can structure the value assessment however they like... and maybe "zero" is not feasible;however, near zero would be more feasible.
what the tokens they hand out are have no meaning at this point, BFX will soon make an update probably describing exactly what these tokens represent and the terms and condition of holding this token. So, yeah, in the end, we can consider this matter as share holders in a company.. If we hold accounts at bitfinex, we have been forced bail out shareholders in a company, and if we are not account holders in bitfinex, we can become share holders by acquiring some BFX coins, as you indicated.
Right but IMO they could have simply done the bail-in and leave it at that. they are GIVING you shares in their company as compensation. its not a half bad deal if you consider the alternative of taking them to court and having to wait years for what would end up being a repayment of pretty much the same as there bail-in ~65%. |
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are just doing this temporarily and in time they will refund 1% every month or so? no this is a one time deal which will make BFX whole again. everyone losses 36% and thats all there is to it. I don't know, Adam. You may be misreading this a little bit. I think that you are correct that the current proposal intends to cause a 36% shaving across the board for all account holders and all asset classes that were in effect at the time of the discovery of the supposed hack. At the same time, my understanding of the BFX coin is intended to allow some kind of recognition and representation of the 36% loss, and over time those BFX coins could change in value and possibly allow for some future recuperation of some of the 36% loss. The BFX coins will be tradeable etc, and accordingly, that trading of BFX coins could cause individual BFX coin holders to lose more or less in terms of the extent to which they may chose to engage in such trading of BFX coins. yup i stopped reading their announcement at after i read the bit about 36% generalized loss totally missed the other important bit. These kinds of matters are fast moving, and it is totally understandable that some of us are going to miss important information and may even need to retract or alter our perspectives. I also think that many of us may have quite a bit of skepticism regarding BFX's story, but still if they come out with and employ a fairly reasonable plan forward, they may be able to retain a decent trading market share (whether that's from existing users or new users).. for example, if the BFX coin ends up sufficiently appreciating in value to largely repay losses, then that could be a significant boon for BFX's business. On the other hand, there are also some possible very negative scenarios too, such as additional hacks or additional appearances of scamming by BFX that causes their credibility to completely wane and the BFX coins lose value (I imagine that the BFX coins are starting out at zero value, or near zero value, but it remains a very innovative possible way of generating continued loser stake in the success of BFX and even allows for the BFX coin holders to employ their gambling (trading) inclinations). its unclear what the BFX token will represent they clearly state that has not be decided, but appear to point toward shares representing some % of bitfinex which may or may not be dividend paying shares, based on some % of BFX net profits going forward. this assumption is based on this line: for shares of iFinex Inc. if that is the case then i would imagine these tokens will not start off at zero i would assume an IPO at a fixed price, followed by a open market for buy/selling "shares of iFinex Inc." i look forward to learning more about these "shares of iFinex Inc.". i'll consider the terms and conditions and might actually be a buyer, if i can.... |
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I however might be buying the tokens.
I'd try to stop you, but you'd probably go ahead and buy those titanic tickets just to spite me. Fine, it's your money. Lose as much of it as you want. let me use this reply to say a few things first off, given the opportunity to hold a dividend paying share of a bitcoin exchange company would be fun and probably very lucrative. if you believe BFX will one day be #1 BTC/USD exchange and bitcoin itself will grow, then holding shares in bitfinex is an opportunity second, what i love most about bitcoin is how it levels the playing field and allows someone like me ( not a whale, but a tiny fish ) to be presented with that opportunity. when sdice sold shares i was right there next to gigantic whales buying IPO. third, i dont trust you with my money  |
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are just doing this temporarily and in time they will refund 1% every month or so? no this is a one time deal which will make BFX whole again. everyone losses 36% and thats all there is to it. I don't know, Adam. You may be misreading this a little bit. I think that you are correct that the current proposal intends to cause a 36% shaving across the board for all account holders and all asset classes that were in effect at the time of the discovery of the supposed hack. At the same time, my understanding of the BFX coin is intended to allow some kind of recognition and representation of the 36% loss, and over time those BFX coins could change in value and possibly allow for some future recuperation of some of the 36% loss. The BFX coins will be tradeable etc, and accordingly, that trading of BFX coins could cause individual BFX coin holders to lose more or less in terms of the extent to which they may chose to engage in such trading of BFX coins. yup i stopped reading their announcement at after i read the bit about 36% generalized loss totally missed the other important bit. |
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Buy now, or wait for the weekend dip?
i'm waiting for a dip, but i dont NEED to buy.... i will survive the coming fiat melt down  Ended up buying some more right now.... waiting for the weekend dip cost me a $50 premium, fuck  mean while i'm still waiting  |
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i hope this makes it clear.
They don't want to turn off their magic money making machine, that much is clear... they just aren't aware it's shattered, strewn across the shop floor, irreparably destroyed yet? provided things go smoothly and no one try to sue them or somthing.
Can't imagine that happening... lol.
They say we'll get BitFinex "tokens" which will be turned into shares of BitFinex stock..
why do i keep hearing about "tokens" can someone point me to the source of this rumor. We are actively discussing various strategic options with numerous potential investors as part of our strategy to fully compensate our customers. Such discussions, however, are in early stages and will likely take time to play out. In the meantime, In place of the loss in each wallet, we are crediting a token labeled BFX to record each customer’s discrete losses. Tokens will be distributed without release or waiver. The BFX tokens will remain outstanding until redeemed in full by Bitfinex or possibly exchanged—upon the creditor’s request and Bitfinex’s acceptance—for shares of iFinex Inc. We are still sorting out many details on this; we will post further updates in the coming days. LOL i see well thats really fucking cool on there part. 1) Facilitate or participate in the loss of near 40% of your clients' money. 2) Shrewd clients say "it isn't that bad, could be worse", "hopefully they'll start trading again soon." 3) Clients light up with glee when bankrupt organization floats pie in the sky idea of illegally offering non-enforceable equity to non-accredited investors (many/most of US domicile) in said bankrupt organization in lieu of rube's money. [Just Bitcoiner Things.] being NLC all you can focus on is their fuck up. nothing they do will change your mind about them " they are evil poeple looking to steal your money. much like a mugger. bla bla bla bitcoiners are stupid bla bla bla " GTFO of here man. |
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^Getting dangerously close to altcoin discussion.
But back to the walls, any rumors on when BFX plans to refloat the Titanic restoke Chernobyl bring the site back online? Heard something about Monday in zombie mode, should we start painting victory stripes yet?
P.S. watching huobi chart on bitcoinwisdom, look over to the other markets in the top bar, and "huh, finex is up to 604 already ... ? Doh!"
my guess is: "zombie mode" as early as monday, and back to full operation by friday. provided things go smoothly and no one try to sue them or somthing. Nothing stopping people from suing after they get their 64% out of that bad neighborhood. If a mugger tells you he'll return half of your money if you promise not to go to the cops, whatever you tell the mugger won't be considered binding by the court. Yeah, people will sue. 100% chance. I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop from the rep. I'm betting on something negative in a few days, to swing the price down. I would. i've explained this 100X suing bitfinex will get you a far worse deal then they are offering. i didnt even know about the tokens and i thought it was still a better option to go along with their bail in rather then suing them if you hate bitfinex, when they open again withdraw all your coins, and wait to sell your tokens. I however might be buying the tokens. bitfinex fucked up, sure, but IMO they are handling this exceptionally well. with a better security model, and some time, i now believe they can once again be #1 BTC/USD exchange. the MTGOX explosion and Bitfinex are as different as night and day. i am impressed with their swift and fair actions. |
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They say we'll get BitFinex "tokens" which will be turned into shares of BitFinex stock..
why do i keep hearing about "tokens" can someone point me to the source of this rumor. We are actively discussing various strategic options with numerous potential investors as part of our strategy to fully compensate our customers. Such discussions, however, are in early stages and will likely take time to play out. In the meantime, In place of the loss in each wallet, we are crediting a token labeled BFX to record each customer’s discrete losses. Tokens will be distributed without release or waiver. The BFX tokens will remain outstanding until redeemed in full by Bitfinex or possibly exchanged—upon the creditor’s request and Bitfinex’s acceptance—for shares of iFinex Inc. We are still sorting out many details on this; we will post further updates in the coming days. LOL i see well thats really fucking cool on there part. |
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^Getting dangerously close to altcoin discussion.
But back to the walls, any rumors on when BFX plans to refloat the Titanic restoke Chernobyl bring the site back online? Heard something about Monday in zombie mode, should we start painting victory stripes yet?
P.S. watching huobi chart on bitcoinwisdom, look over to the other markets in the top bar, and "huh, finex is up to 604 already ... ? Doh!"
my guess is: "zombie mode" as early as monday, and back to full operation by friday. provided things go smoothly and no one try to sue them or somthing. |
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Also the so called "bail in" ... did they also promised that 36% to be refunded in time back to the users? ... Or ... ? what?
bail-in means that you simply use ( take with or without permission ) other customer deposits to make yourself solvent again. this is what BFX will do, they will take 36% of all customer deposit from all accounts and assets in order to cover the missing 119K BTC. are just doing this temporarily and in time they will refund 1% every month or so? no this is a one time deal which will make BFX whole again. everyone losses 36% and thats all there is to it. what happens if that person removes the amount 64% they can't, they can't access their accounts right now, when they do access there account, they will find the BFX settled all there margin positions and took 36% of their holdings. i hope this makes it clear. |
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Who's address is this and what is happening? It looks like an address that was just created today, and there are a lots of coins going into it from a variety of addresses... What does it mean? this is a whale finally deciding NOT to keep 1000's of bitcoin on different exchanges? oh the my bullishness is coming back on full force! .. whats the price at? better double it! It's Bitfinex moving the coins it has left to one address according to Zane Tackett on reddit. He says they are moving the coins to their control, which makes me think they have all the keys to that address and have abandoned the shared key model. https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/4wiw3q/bitfinex_has_725k_btc_left_or_someone_just_stole/their implementation of "shared key model." is obviously not good enough. its really TO BAD, that bitgo didnt have some stupid logic saying if bitfinex asks for >1000Coins to be moved reject it. i dont understand why they used multi sig if bitgo would simply go ahead and auto sign off any/everything. F i dont understand wtf this "shared key model." ment. oh well... seems obvious.. it meant that if BFX was hacked, that everyone shares in the losses . I mean i dont understand the mutil sigs detials like to move coins required BFX key and bitgo keys but if bitgo auto signs every time BFX signs.... then all you really need is BFX keys and you can move the coins. is this infact the reality of what was going on with this "shared key model." ? idk.. idk shit... |
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anyone know the address of where all the bitfinex coins got move to offhand? it would be fun to look at that TX  |
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Who's address is this and what is happening? It looks like an address that was just created today, and there are a lots of coins going into it from a variety of addresses... What does it mean? this is a whale finally deciding NOT to keep 1000's of bitcoin on different exchanges? oh the my bullishness is coming back on full force! .. whats the price at? better double it! It's Bitfinex moving the coins it has left to one address according to Zane Tackett on reddit. He says they are moving the coins to their control, which makes me think they have all the keys to that address and have abandoned the shared key model. https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/4wiw3q/bitfinex_has_725k_btc_left_or_someone_just_stole/their implementation of "shared key model." is obviously not good enough. its really TO BAD, that bitgo didnt have some stupid logic saying if bitfinex asks for >1000Coins to be moved reject it. i dont understand why they used multi sig if bitgo would simply go ahead and auto sign off any/everything. F i dont understand wtf this "shared key model." ment. oh well... |
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In order to generate customer confidence they do have to disclose enough information, so that customers are going to be sufficiently content as to continue to use their services...
This will be there biggest challenge, going forward, to figure out a way to keep their customers. **Rant about what security model they should have used** I always thought the multi sig wallet they used was so that customers would hold a PrivateKey of there own, so that when users did a BTC withdraw or created an order from there bitfinex wallet, bitfinex required a signed msg from this PrivateKey that only the customer held ( i was thinking the PrivateKey & signing was being done client side using some fancy node.JS bitcoin wallet behind the scenes ) I mean this would seem like the logical thing to do, no way in hell could any move any coins without compromising everyone's personal computer AND bitfienx's itself. this is what i thought was happening at bitfinex when i over heard somthing about them using a multi sig wallet for added security. maybe if they used this kind of approach, this would make customers feel more secure. if you can mathematically PROVE that my funds held at finex will not move unless MY PK is compromised, and simply require a signed msg from that PK to move funds (along with all the other login credentials. ), i will be 100% sure i can safely store bitcoin on this platform. |
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Who's address is this and what is happening? It looks like an address that was just created today, and there are a lots of coins going into it from a variety of addresses... What does it mean? this is a whale finally deciding NOT to keep 1000's of bitcoin on different exchanges? oh the my bullishness is coming back on full force! .. whats the price at? better double it! |
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will bitfinex users accept a generalized loss percentage of 36.067% across all accounts and assets. or will we see a class action soon?
If your bank or my broker gave you a 36% haircut? But I bet you're right, people will vent a little, tire themselves out, take what they're given. banks get bailed out. altho, i have heard rumours that governments would stop doing this and bail-in's like Cyprus might be become the norm again ( i say again because apparently back in the day, banks were not "to big to fail" ) No, for cases like this banks have *insurance*. In US, that's FDIC. The bank might fail (3 have in 2016), but their customers, punters like you, lost exactly no money. None. Nothing to do with bailouts. But let's forget banks. You'd take this haircut from your broker? I wouldn't take that shit ("Honest man, I got robbed") from my runner. People don't even know wtf happened, and they're already gushing with gratitude because they got some edit: got promised some of their money back. Even the dollar holders, whose shit wasn't affected. Amazing. No wonder people here always get robbed -- might as well hang a sign saying "ROB ME BRO, No consequences at all if you fuck up, and I'll be your best friend if you let me keep half. You can't lose!" Enjoy bailing in BFX and "Socialized losses," lol. isn't the FDIC just formalizing the agreement that governments will bail-out banks? oh wtv. i dont need to know how the legacy system works. point is bitfinex has been hacked, shame on them for having a shitty p2sha wallet impl??, or maybe it was an inside job?? doesn't really matter, the end result is the same, (unless someone can prove it was an inside job and find the person responsible...) but IMO they are handling it the best that they could. i do believe that if this would go to court we would have the same result, liquidation of bitfinex and all accounts and assets getting a very similar % of their funds back, ( we saw this result with mtgox did we not?) but they wouldn't see there money for years, they would have to pay lawyers and bitfinex would be dismantled. keeping this out of court and accepting bitfinex's settlement is probably in the best interest of everyone involved. I agree overall that Bitfinex's settlement proposal is pretty decent, given various alternative possible outcomes, but making some kinds of arguments, that this is the best we can get based on settlement in court blah blah blah.. seems to be going a bit too far.. and also suggesting that this is amongst the best of the arrangements is going too far, too. Ultimately, we gotta continue to take what Bitfinex says with a grain of salt and also to attempt to hold their feet to the fire in that hopefully in the long term the intent is for Bitfinex to attempt to provide full restitution to their users, and hopefully the bitfinex coin is intended, designed and will be implemented in such a way to strive towards the achieving of the long term restitution of existing customers (who are taking a haircut). Bitfinex cannot lose sight that they owe a duty to their customers, and they fucked up in some kind of way in allowing this to happen to such a considerable magnitude. i guess your right, taking this to court might actually yield slightly more money for everyone. but i think the courts would have bitfinex liquidated. and there simply isn't enough money in bitfinex to get users that much more money maybe users would only have a 30% hair cut going with the courts? its not worth it. because the money would be tide up for a long time because its not even guaranteed to get less of a hair cut I think bitfinex's idea of pretty much matching what the court would do, was the only move they could do, to avoid going to court. when i first though about it i was thinking " for sure this is going to court, nothing they will propose will be good enough for everyone..." i mean this would FOR SURE go to court if they said somthing like "if you were lucky enough not to have you BTC wallet stolen your fine! this hack will only effect the effected wallets" |
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will bitfinex users accept a generalized loss percentage of 36.067% across all accounts and assets. or will we see a class action soon?
If your bank or my broker gave you a 36% haircut? But I bet you're right, people will vent a little, tire themselves out, take what they're given. banks get bailed out. altho, i have heard rumours that governments would stop doing this and bail-in's like Cyprus might be become the norm again ( i say again because apparently back in the day, banks were not "to big to fail" ) No, for cases like this banks have *insurance*. In US, that's FDIC. The bank might fail (3 have in 2016), but their customers, punters like you, lost exactly no money. None. Nothing to do with bailouts. But let's forget banks. You'd take this haircut from your broker? I wouldn't take that shit ("Honest man, I got robbed") from my runner. People don't even know wtf happened, and they're already gushing with gratitude because they got some edit: got promised some of their money back. Even the dollar holders, whose shit wasn't affected. Amazing. No wonder people here always get robbed -- might as well hang a sign saying "ROB ME BRO, No consequences at all if you fuck up, and I'll be your best friend if you let me keep half. You can't lose!" Enjoy bailing in BFX and "Socialized losses," lol. isn't the FDIC just formalizing the agreement that governments will bail-out banks? oh wtv. i dont need to know how the legacy system works. point is bitfinex has been hacked, shame on them for having a shitty p2sha wallet impl??, or maybe it was an inside job?? doesn't really matter, the end result is the same, (unless someone can prove it was an inside job and find the person responsible...) but IMO they are handling it the best that they could. i do believe that if this would go to court we would have the same result, liquidation of bitfinex and all accounts and assets getting a very similar % of their funds back, ( we saw this result with mtgox did we not?) but they wouldn't see there money for years, they would have to pay lawyers and bitfinex would be dismantled. keeping this out of court and accepting bitfinex's settlement is probably in the best interest of everyone involved. |
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