Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[savetherainforest]

No, for cases like this banks have *insurance*. In US, that's FDIC. The bank might fail (3 have in 2016), but their customers, punters like you, lost exactly no money. None. Nothing to do with bailouts.

In the EU deposit insurance is limited to 100K Euro. Deposits beyond that are not protected from haircuts.

When the Cyprus fiasco occurred I think it was everything above 200k Euro's ... I think they where more generous or something... or maybe the fear of Putin!

[aztecminer]

After much thought, analysis, and consultation, we have arrived at the conclusion that losses must be generalized across all accounts and assets. [...] Upon logging into the platform, customers will see that they have experienced a generalized loss percentage of 36.067%.

So, what's the current consensus? That's the end of finex as a relevant trading platform?

maybe.. because this is all starting to look sketched .. i have never traded on bitfinex, therefore, i have no interest or emotions tied into their hackfest.. the impression i am getting is a US exchange based in hong kong who kept all their coins in hot wallets to skirt the sec (or whatever they are called) .. they suddenly get hacked for 120k coins 68M and now they are the authority setting the precedence that exchanges will do bail-ins to socialize losses.. they are planning to push out their very own "token" that might become a tradeable asset on their exchange .. if they dump alt coins on exchanges to buy the BTC they need to recoup their losses, this could be considered market manipulation by BFX exchange ... the whole thing is full of sketch ... BFX problems might be just starting .... probably better hold on and see how this all plays out... cuz these guys look sketchy as hell right now .

[peonminer]

Bitcorn is dones! Head for teh hillz!

[European Central Bank]

this could be considered market manipulation by BFX exchange

I thought there was zero regulation for the bitcoin market itself. they may well be breaking laws in how they choose to operate their company but that's a separate matter.

[Arcteryx]

After much thought, analysis, and consultation, we have arrived at the conclusion that losses must be generalized across all accounts and assets. [...] Upon logging into the platform, customers will see that they have experienced a generalized loss percentage of 36.067%.

So, what's the current consensus? That's the end of finex as a relevant trading platform?

maybe.. because this is all starting to look sketched .. i have never traded on bitfinex, therefore, i have no interest or emotions tied into their hackfest.. the impression i am getting is a US exchange based in hong kong who kept all their coins in hot wallets to skirt the sec (or whatever they are called) .. they suddenly get hacked for 120k coins 68M and now they are the authority setting the precedence that exchanges will do bail-ins to socialize losses.. they are planning to push out their very own "token" that might become a tradeable asset on their exchange .. if they dump alt coins on exchanges to buy the BTC they need to recoup their losses, this could be considered market manipulation by BFX exchange ... the whole thing is full of sketch ... BFX problems might be just starting .... probably better hold on and see how this all plays out... cuz these guys look sketchy as hell right now .

Give me my Bitfinex tokens then I might consider to leave it alone too!

[davidorentol]

ON FIRE ! 73K COINS so far 

https://blockchain.info/address/35emx395afKAKAr72VoePVbu3FJvxLPVny?offset=650&filter=0

[Lionidas]

So who panic sold at 4xx?

I panic bought at $4xx

I wish I had your problem with buying at that price.

[JayJuanGee]

this could be considered market manipulation by BFX exchange

I thought there was zero regulation for the bitcoin market itself. they may well be breaking laws in how they choose to operate their company but that's a separate matter.

This comment hardly makes any sense.

1) we should all know that there are laws all over the place, and some of the government agencies may attempt to assert or to decline jurisdiction over any kind of subject matter

2) there are other laws, such as common law concepts of fraud and/or fair dealings with customers - which are likely going to vary from location to location and who is attempting to assert authority

3) regarding how they arrange their business, there is discretion so long as they are not violating any laws or regulations, and in that regard, they may feel compelled to attempt to satisfy certain customers or at least to keep a certain level of confidence building in order that investors will continue to invest.

[adamstgBit]

will bitfinex users accept a generalized loss percentage of 36.067% across all accounts and assets. or will we see a class action soon?

If your bank or my broker gave you a 36% haircut? But I bet you're right, people will vent a little, tire themselves out, take what they're given.

banks get bailed out.

altho, i have heard rumours that governments would stop doing this and bail-in's like Cyprus might be become the norm again ( i say again because apparently back in the day, banks were not "to big to fail" )

No, for cases like this banks have *insurance*. In US, that's FDIC. The bank might fail (3 have in 2016), but their customers, punters like you, lost exactly no money. None. Nothing to do with bailouts.

But let's forget banks. You'd take this haircut from your broker? I wouldn't take that shit ("Honest man, I got robbed") from my runner. People don't even know wtf happened, and they're already gushing with gratitude because they got some edit: got promised some of their money back. Even the dollar holders, whose shit wasn't affected. Amazing. No wonder people here always get robbed -- might as well hang a sign saying "ROB ME BRO, No consequences at all if you fuck up, and I'll be your best friend if you let me keep half. You can't lose!"

Enjoy bailing in BFX and "Socialized losses," lol.

isn't the FDIC just formalizing the agreement that governments will bail-out banks? oh wtv. i dont need to know how the legacy system works.

point is bitfinex has been hacked, shame on them for having a shitty p2sha wallet impl??, or maybe it was an inside job?? doesn't really matter, the end result is the same, (unless someone can prove it was an inside job and find the person responsible...)  but IMO they are handling it the best that they could.

i do believe that if this would go to court we would have the same result, liquidation of bitfinex and all accounts and assets getting a very similar % of their funds back, ( we saw this result with mtgox did we not?) but they wouldn't see there money for years, they would have to pay lawyers and bitfinex would be dismantled.

keeping this out of court and accepting bitfinex's settlement is probably in the best interest of everyone involved.

I agree overall that Bitfinex's settlement proposal is pretty decent, given various alternative possible outcomes, but making some kinds of arguments, that this is the best we can get based on settlement in court blah blah blah.. seems to be going a bit too far.. and also suggesting that this is amongst the best of the arrangements is going too far, too.  Ultimately, we gotta continue to take what Bitfinex says with a grain of salt and also to attempt to hold their feet to the fire in that hopefully in the long term the intent is for Bitfinex to attempt to provide full restitution to their users, and hopefully the bitfinex coin is intended, designed and will be implemented in such a way to strive towards the achieving of the long term restitution of existing customers (who are taking a haircut).

 Bitfinex cannot lose sight that they owe a duty to their customers, and they fucked up in some kind of way in allowing this to happen to such a considerable magnitude.

 
i guess your right, taking this to court might actually yield slightly more money for everyone.
but i think the courts would have bitfinex liquidated. and there simply isn't enough money in bitfinex to get users that much more money
maybe users would only have a 30% hair cut going with the courts?
its not worth it.
because the money would be tide up for a long time
because its not even guaranteed to get less of a hair cut


I think bitfinex's idea of pretty much matching what the court would do, was the only move they could do, to avoid going to court.


when i first though about it i was thinking " for sure this is going to court, nothing they will propose will be good enough for everyone..."
i mean this would FOR SURE go to court if they said somthing like "if you were lucky enough not to have you BTC wallet stolen your fine! this hack will only effect the effected wallets"

[JayJuanGee]

ON FIRE ! 73K COINS so far 

https://blockchain.info/address/35emx395afKAKAr72VoePVbu3FJvxLPVny?offset=650&filter=0

Who's address is this and what is happening?

It looks like an address that was just created today, and there are a lots of coins going into it from a variety of addresses... What does it mean?

[adamstgBit]

ON FIRE ! 73K COINS so far 

https://blockchain.info/address/35emx395afKAKAr72VoePVbu3FJvxLPVny?offset=650&filter=0

Who's address is this and what is happening?

It looks like an address that was just created today, and there are a lots of coins going into it from a variety of addresses... What does it mean?

this is a whale finally deciding NOT to keep 1000's of bitcoin on different exchanges?

oh the my bullishness is coming back on full force!

.. whats the price at? better double it!

[JayJuanGee]

will bitfinex users accept a generalized loss percentage of 36.067% across all accounts and assets. or will we see a class action soon?

If your bank or my broker gave you a 36% haircut? But I bet you're right, people will vent a little, tire themselves out, take what they're given.

banks get bailed out.

altho, i have heard rumours that governments would stop doing this and bail-in's like Cyprus might be become the norm again ( i say again because apparently back in the day, banks were not "to big to fail" )

No, for cases like this banks have *insurance*. In US, that's FDIC. The bank might fail (3 have in 2016), but their customers, punters like you, lost exactly no money. None. Nothing to do with bailouts.

But let's forget banks. You'd take this haircut from your broker? I wouldn't take that shit ("Honest man, I got robbed") from my runner. People don't even know wtf happened, and they're already gushing with gratitude because they got some edit: got promised some of their money back. Even the dollar holders, whose shit wasn't affected. Amazing. No wonder people here always get robbed -- might as well hang a sign saying "ROB ME BRO, No consequences at all if you fuck up, and I'll be your best friend if you let me keep half. You can't lose!"

Enjoy bailing in BFX and "Socialized losses," lol.

isn't the FDIC just formalizing the agreement that governments will bail-out banks? oh wtv. i dont need to know how the legacy system works.

point is bitfinex has been hacked, shame on them for having a shitty p2sha wallet impl??, or maybe it was an inside job?? doesn't really matter, the end result is the same, (unless someone can prove it was an inside job and find the person responsible...)  but IMO they are handling it the best that they could.

i do believe that if this would go to court we would have the same result, liquidation of bitfinex and all accounts and assets getting a very similar % of their funds back, ( we saw this result with mtgox did we not?) but they wouldn't see there money for years, they would have to pay lawyers and bitfinex would be dismantled.

keeping this out of court and accepting bitfinex's settlement is probably in the best interest of everyone involved.

I agree overall that Bitfinex's settlement proposal is pretty decent, given various alternative possible outcomes, but making some kinds of arguments, that this is the best we can get based on settlement in court blah blah blah.. seems to be going a bit too far.. and also suggesting that this is amongst the best of the arrangements is going too far, too.  Ultimately, we gotta continue to take what Bitfinex says with a grain of salt and also to attempt to hold their feet to the fire in that hopefully in the long term the intent is for Bitfinex to attempt to provide full restitution to their users, and hopefully the bitfinex coin is intended, designed and will be implemented in such a way to strive towards the achieving of the long term restitution of existing customers (who are taking a haircut).

 Bitfinex cannot lose sight that they owe a duty to their customers, and they fucked up in some kind of way in allowing this to happen to such a considerable magnitude.

 
i guess your right, taking this to court might actually yield slightly more money for everyone.
but i think the courts would have bitfinex liquidated. and there simply isn't enough money in bitfinex to get users that much more money
maybe users would only have a 30% hair cut going with the courts?
its not worth it.
because the money would be tide up for a long time
because its not even guaranteed to get less of a hair cut

I think bitfinex idea of pretty much matching what the court would do was the only move they could have done to avoid going to court.

You seem to be misreading me, because I was not arguing that going to courts would be any kind of better solution, and in fact, I believe that Bitfinex proposing some kind of reasonable solution is likely going to lead to better outcomes.

I was mostly quibbling with what I perceived as your black and white framing of the matter, and your seeming suggestion that Bitfinex had chosen amongst the best of arrangements.

Accordingly, there are a lot of arrangements that they could tailor, and the public is not going to really find out actual details of their financial circumstances because they are not going to completely disclose all of their circumstances, unless they feel that they have to do so.

On the other hand, in order to generate customer confidence they do have to disclose enough information that customers are going to be sufficiently content as to continue to use their services...

In the end, all of this is a bit of a balancing act, and it is not black and white, and we need to continue to be skeptical regarding various aspects of the representations of Bitfinex.

[NewbieTreider]

ON FIRE ! 73K COINS so far  

https://blockchain.info/address/35emx395afKAKAr72VoePVbu3FJvxLPVny?offset=650&filter=0

Who's address is this and what is happening?

It looks like an address that was just created today, and there are a lots of coins going into it from a variety of addresses... What does it mean?

Maybe...

 119,756 x (1-0.36067) = 76563.60348

[mr angry]

ON FIRE ! 73K COINS so far  

https://blockchain.info/address/35emx395afKAKAr72VoePVbu3FJvxLPVny?offset=650&filter=0

Who's address is this and what is happening?

It looks like an address that was just created today, and there are a lots of coins going into it from a variety of addresses... What does it mean?

this is a whale finally deciding NOT to keep 1000's of bitcoin on different exchanges?

oh the my bullishness is coming back on full force!

.. whats the price at? better double it!

It's Bitfinex moving the coins it has left to one address according to Zane Tackett on reddit. He says they are moving the coins to their control, which makes me think they have all the keys to that address and have abandoned the shared key model.

https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/4wiw3q/bitfinex_has_725k_btc_left_or_someone_just_stole/

[yefi]

It's Bitfinex moving the coins it has left to one address according to Zane Tackett on reddit. He says they are moving the coins to their control, which makes me think they have all the keys to that address and have abandoned the shared key model.

https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/4wiw3q/bitfinex_has_725k_btc_left_or_someone_just_stole/

It's going to be interesting seeing how many coins that address ends up with. At present, their BTC loss stands at about 62%.

[adamstgBit]

In order to generate customer confidence they do have to disclose enough information, so that customers are going to be sufficiently content as to continue to use their services...

This will be there biggest challenge, going forward, to figure out a way to keep their customers.



**Rant about what security model they should have used**

I always thought the multi sig wallet they used was so that customers would hold a PrivateKey of there own, so that when users did a BTC withdraw or created an order  from there bitfinex wallet, bitfinex required a signed msg from this PrivateKey that only the customer held  ( i was thinking the PrivateKey & signing was being done client side using some fancy node.JS bitcoin wallet behind the scenes )

I mean this would seem like the logical thing to do, no way in hell could any move any coins without compromising everyone's personal computer AND bitfienx's itself.

this is what i thought was happening at bitfinex when i over heard somthing about them using a multi sig wallet for added security.

maybe if they used this kind of approach, this would make customers feel more secure.

if you can mathematically PROVE that my funds held at finex will not move unless MY PK is compromised, and simply require a signed msg from that PK to move funds (along with all the other login credentials. ), i will be 100% sure i can safely store bitcoin on this platform.

[adamstgBit]

ON FIRE ! 73K COINS so far  

https://blockchain.info/address/35emx395afKAKAr72VoePVbu3FJvxLPVny?offset=650&filter=0

Who's address is this and what is happening?

It looks like an address that was just created today, and there are a lots of coins going into it from a variety of addresses... What does it mean?

this is a whale finally deciding NOT to keep 1000's of bitcoin on different exchanges?

oh the my bullishness is coming back on full force!

.. whats the price at? better double it!

It's Bitfinex moving the coins it has left to one address according to Zane Tackett on reddit. He says they are moving the coins to their control, which makes me think they have all the keys to that address and have abandoned the shared key model.

https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/4wiw3q/bitfinex_has_725k_btc_left_or_someone_just_stole/

their implementation of "shared key model." is obviously not good enough.

its really TO BAD, that bitgo didnt have some stupid logic saying if bitfinex asks for >1000Coins to be moved reject it.

i dont understand why they used multi sig if bitgo would simply go ahead and auto sign off any/everything.

F i dont understand wtf this "shared key model." ment. oh well...

[adamstgBit]

anyone know the address of where all the bitfinex coins got move to offhand? it would be fun to look at that TX 

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

anyone know the address of where all the bitfinex coins got move to offhand? it would be fun to look at that TX 

https://blockchain.info/address/35emx395afKAKAr72VoePVbu3FJvxLPVny

[aztecminer]

ON FIRE ! 73K COINS so far  

https://blockchain.info/address/35emx395afKAKAr72VoePVbu3FJvxLPVny?offset=650&filter=0

Who's address is this and what is happening?

It looks like an address that was just created today, and there are a lots of coins going into it from a variety of addresses... What does it mean?

this is a whale finally deciding NOT to keep 1000's of bitcoin on different exchanges?

oh the my bullishness is coming back on full force!

.. whats the price at? better double it!

It's Bitfinex moving the coins it has left to one address according to Zane Tackett on reddit. He says they are moving the coins to their control, which makes me think they have all the keys to that address and have abandoned the shared key model.

https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/4wiw3q/bitfinex_has_725k_btc_left_or_someone_just_stole/

their implementation of "shared key model." is obviously not good enough.

its really TO BAD, that bitgo didnt have some stupid logic saying if bitfinex asks for >1000Coins to be moved reject it.

i dont understand why they used multi sig if bitgo would simply go ahead and auto sign off any/everything.

F i dont understand wtf this "shared key model." ment. oh well...

seems obvious.. it meant that if BFX was hacked, that everyone shares in the losses .