See this? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4415201.msg39392188#msg39392188
Anyway, funny thing is that this is the least to complain about Vod's actions. And this is the only thing you grip on off those. Regardless of his semi-backpedaling, faking an attribution of some random quote is totally idiotic. He is claiming that someone else fake-attributed it and he just fell for it. ("Not a fake quote by Vod" when everyone can see that he placed that "Anduck" in there!)

He placed the "Anduck" in that quote. He claimed someone else did it. He still based his reasons on that quote, even though he acknowledged it's fake. I did give him benefit of doubt as it was likely a honest mistake by him, but after he didn't really show any hint of it being a mistake, it's hard to give him that doubt anymore.

Who placed the "Anduck" in that quote if it wasn't Vod? Nobody attributed that quote to be said by me, until Vod wrote that "Anduck" in it.

And here Vod is denying attributing the quote to me.

Thanks for weighing in.

Did the Barrett-Jackson auction house representative tell you why owners wouldn't be permitted bidding?
I think it's already clear to all of us that there are different standards around the world related to auctions. In my country, in the local auction houses, it's perfectly normal if the owner bids on the item. As has been explained several times, being the owner of the item doesn't increase or decrease ones ability to act as a bidder too. The rules are same for everyone. In this one case 2-3 years ago, it was not stated whether the auction had reserve or no reserve, and lead to some confusion. This has been hashed for quite some time now. It should also be clear that self-bidding is in no way dishonesty or scamming, and stating whether there's a reserve or no reserve is the correct practice as there's no universal "default".

That auction is not even related to the topic of this thread, and vaguely related to the rating itself. Vods rating towards me is not due to some auction. Vod rated me red, because he promised to do so if I didn't bend to his blackmailing. It's that simple and proofs are publicly available. This auction thing is simply the only tool Vod found to be remotely useful to suit his action.
Additionally, his rating contains this lie "Also admitted to me in PM he lied about this matter" -- this has not happened. I've asked Vod to present this PM several times, but he can't -- obviously because he would need to fake it. He already did fake a quote, so it wouldn't surprise me. See how Vod first makes up a quote, claims it was said by me, then goes back and say it was not said by me but someone else faked it (when he faked it (attributed the quote to me) himself), and then still keeps on reasoning his actions based on that fake quote..
Obviously some 1.5 years old auction (at the time of Vod rating me red) is not the root of this rating. It's all presented in this thread, follow the links, e.g. this. Whenever Vod claims I've done something, please try to find out the proof for that. There's always nothing. E.g. when he claims that I told Vod I trust him. That hasn't happened. E.g. when Vod claims I've admitted lying. That hasn't happened. E.g. when Vod claims I've lied. That hasn't happened. There's simply nothing to back any of those claims except Vod's words.

OgNasty, we both know that half of the DT are inactive, been for years. It's not like they're going to come read this single case of wrongdoing, and it's not like they're going to remove Vod because of it. Vod has done much good for the forum, so is one wrongdoing worth it to nullify all that, in their eyes?

Untrue. You left me red feedback, because you told me that will happen if I don't do what you want. This is a proven fact, verifiable from the sources linked in this thread.
Previously you had also said you see nothing scammy in the behaviour. "Suddenly" that changed, right? And just happened to align with your blackmailing attempt. After 1.5 years.

Of course you would want this to be closed, because you're the one with guns. Your red rating weights on me, but mine on you really doesn't, because of the DT system. Of course you're happy if you can get away with blatantly lying, faking quotes & attributions etc dishonesty. You blocked me from communicating with you privately to avoid any chance of private resolution of our personal problems. Again, that doesn't surprise me because you're the one with guns.

This account/user Vod has already caused me irrecoverable losses by misusing his DT position against me. It's time to stop this from happening to others, and it's happening all the time.

Suchmoon, do you recognize how incredibly dishonest you portray yourself here? This is to help you realize you're losing all the legitimacy you have, if you still have any.

First of all, as I told you before, events happening during the auctions are severely different from anything that would happen after the auction. You're all the time coming up with after-the-auction examples, which are not applicable at all. I know you're not this dense to not understand this, so your behavior here falls under intellectual dishonesty.

I see you're pointing out in other threads how people lie etc. Why are you not saying a single word about Vod here? No comments at all about all these proven wrongdoings: lying about several things, faking a quote, faking attribution of a quote and blackmailing. All of these things are obvious and proven dishonesty perfectly available for you to see. And yet you're here blabbering about me.

I do understand you're buddies or something alike with Vod and do not want to say anything about him or his actions that would trigger this insanity on you too. So when you're not fair and not going to be fair, how about you stop participating in the discussion completely?

I don't like to bring up the US law either. However, it can very well act as some sort "standards" guidance partially, in general, as standards and expectancies are what we're discussing here apparently.
The auction was ongoing when auctioneer bid, and is severely different from anything that would be done after the auction ends and against the auction rules.

Someone else publicly disagreed with Vod too, and rated me positively, but Vod "discussed" it so this someone removed his rating after Vod had "overruled" it by placing a new red rating. To me it looked like consequences would have followed if this removal wasn't done. That's the reality & sickness of the DT system.

Why are you not commenting the obvious wrongdoing by Vod (the latter part of his rating), but are still commenting the rating for the first part? You're only commenting the part which can be reasoned to be correct on some unreasonable level, but on reasonable level is unjustified & dishonest. This whole thing is a personal conflict between me and Vod, resulting in him slandering me publicly by abusing/misusing his DT position. It has nothing to do with this auction itself --it's just the only tool Vod found to be useful against me. I am not harassing him. How it started? I told him, privately, that I don't trust him specifically. He got insulted, I guess, and this is the result. It's so sickening.


Can you tell us why you feel it's unethical? How is the auctioneer in any special position compared to other bidders when he's bidding?

Whatever is behind Vod's feedback doesn't truly matter. Only that he's red-rating me and lying in his rating. Community is just watching, doing nothing about it. And of course some voices are trying to keep it down by derailing and picking up irrelevant stuff, to steer the narrative and public view.

I don't think we have a language barrier here. Let's try to digest this properly. Who was scammed here? The auction rules did not mention existence of a reserve price, nor the lack of reserve price. (Standard, at least in US law, seems to be that auctions have a reserve.) Standard in these forums seems to be the contrary. But who did I scam and what was the dishonest action I did? Why particularly has the auctioneer announce his willingness to possibly bid, too? Why are other bidders not announcing such? What makes the auctioneer not worth the same as any other bidder? Auctioneer can't change the way the auction will roll, not any more than any other bidder could.

Thanks for a sensible take on this.

I'm also not under the US law. I am mentioning it because o_e_l_e_o mentioned things about it. Also when speaking of auction standards, the US law may show some hints about those, in general.

I perfectly understand your view of seeing it as weird & unexpected. It was unclarity in the auction rules, which I'm of course responsible of. Yet it's not dishonesty or scamming. Auction rules were the same for everyone, regardless of the role of one of them being the auctioneer. Auctions in general are not some "who gets whatever the cheapest", even though some people these days see them as such. It's not necessarily so. Most auctions come with a reserve, hidden or disclosed. When speaking of standards, the standard at least in US law is that an auction comes with a reserve price. I now know that this is not the standard in bitcointalk forums, and I perfectly understand the weirdness it causes when it's not stated whether there's a reserve or not. (This forum is used to non-written no reserve price being the standard.)

But yes, this is not about the auction. This is a personal conflict between me and Vod. I've been saying this all the time, yet people drag this auction in the discussion and try to reason Vods wrongdoing to be the correct. Vod is provably lying. People don't comment that at all, which strikes to me as very weird.

For what it's worth, TMAN opened that thread because we had a stupid personal conflict back then, which was btw quickly resolved. Funny how long-lasting effect it has.

In addition to all what has been presented so far, here's something new: I've been non-directly asked to take a side on this stupid ongoing DT wars. People who have been paying attention know what has happened. When I did not join a "tribe" on, and against, certain people, it did cost me the "support" of that side. Both/all sides of this stupidity are wrong, and right, in a sense. DT system is currently a very brutal and nasty game.

What I'm seeing? Activity against me in various ways. I guess it's the "if you're not with us, you're against us" idea.

You want examples? For example, come to Finland and join the local auction houses. Come see it. AFAIK, they do not allow bids to be withdrawn. How is that related anyway?


It not being a standard, in your understanding, makes it scamming / dishonest? Vod said he thinks nothing dishonest was done. Theymos said the same. Think about it and end up in the same result. Rules are same for everyone. Obviously stating if there is a reserve, or if there's not reserve, is a better approach. I've done that since this. A mere inconvenience / unclarity about how the auction works is not dishonesty or scamming. The default, at least in the US law, is that auctions come with a reserve price. You can see the quoted part in earlier posts. I understand that this forum follows no laws, but still how come you think that no reserve is the default in auctions in general? It's simply your view / expectation about how it should be, and going against it has nothing to do with scamming or dishonesty.


That is bullshit. I am not tagged for this auction. Read up.

It's absolutely a fault of a DT member to lie in his rating. Just this time Vod got caught. Yet you ignore it. Let me be as clear as possibly about this:

Vod's current red rating to me states the following: "Also admitted to me in PM he lied about this matter."

There is no PM existing where that happens. It's a lie made to back his earlier lie where I, claimed by him, scam people. Here's a proof of wrongdoing by a DT member. What is your action regarding it? I know: silence.

And what about those fake quotes, backpedaling and lies about who made them? Then getting caught again for bullshit. And again: silence.

You're correct. I said that DT members are capable of effectively "banning" people from conducting business. You said that it is untrue. You're wrong. The sentence you quoted is not talking about that -- it's merely an additional note, and yes, that is not the claim you made. The claim you made is that DT members are *not* capable of effectively "banning" people from conducting business. I disagree with that. Do I interpret this correctly, or am I failing at something here?


You're free to do what you want. However, I believe I know very well how auctions work. Auctioneer bidding on the auctioned item is perfectly fine around the world in various auctions. It's a form of concealed reserve price. But again, this thread is not about that. This thread is about DT misuse/abuse conducted by Vod. Some old auction and what you think about it has *nothing* to do with that. You can come to Finland to see auctions live, where auctioneer is sometimes bidding on the auction too. Auctioneer is simply in charge of the technical process of the auction and being in that role does not increase or decrease his/her ability to act as a bidder too. Some people, apparently in Bitcointalk it's the norm, see auctions as "seller must sell" -- that's however not a rule of any kind. The norm is, or maybe was, actually the contrary. Penny auctions and such have steered peoples understanding of auctions to be like that. Try to remember online auctions of early 2000. It used to be quite different. These days trust issues in e.g. ebay are very real. But this is all off-topic here.


Could be, but this case is actually quite clear and crisp. It's just somewhat long read, and obviously many people commenting in this thread -- or similar threads for the sake of it -- do not read half of what they're commenting about.

Vod is never even participating in Collectibles section and has nothing to with any of these things. He rated me simply because I told him I don't specifically trust him. This is how EGO works.

What particularly makes you think that I'm intellectually challenged? It's very clear and obvious how Vod is misusing his position as a DT member. His rating to me contains a proven lie. He says I've admitted to scamming. I've not admitted to scamming. By reading his posts in these threads, he's obviously understanding his own misunderstanding of my words to him, intentionally or not, as "lying". After he was corrected (ie. told how he misunderstood it illogically), his ego could not let go. He's defining "scamming" to mean something else than the consensus understands as "scamming". Are you really fine with this sort of bending?

Does it mean that anything said by anyone can always be bent to "mean" something else to someone, therefore reasoning whatever actions? This is bullshit and everyone knows it. So focus on that! It's happening here, and this thread is about that too -- it's one of the ways DT members abuse their position.

There was no dishonesty. Can you stop being derogatory? It is absolutely not my fault that some power hungry child like Vod is allowed, by community, to misuse his position freely. You're trying to steer the narrative to paint me as the bad one. I don't know about your agenda, but you obviously have some reasons to completely ignore all proven wrongdoing by Vod. It's one of the main topics of this thread, making you ignore it is even more bizarre.

At best (for your talking point), not enough transparency and then some expectations were not met in that auction you keep grinding about. Yet no scamming or dishonesty happened. Nothing was specified about a reserve, doesn't make it dishonest to have it. What's the default: no reserve or reserve? In US auctions the latter, if that matters for you. Anyway, since that one occasion 2+ years ago, I've always mentioned which way it is. And again, this thread is not about that. This is about Vod and others abusing and misusing the DT system and ways to make DT better to avoid such abuse.

This thread is about obvious misuse and proven lies & dishonesty done by DT members, presenting a case of DT2 member abusing his position against me. There are various other cases too, which I'm sure you're familiar with. Possibly something to do with your silence regarding Vod's DT abuse/misuse. But that's not related to this thread, really. The problem is in the system, not really in specific people using in it.

Again I'm asking you: Are you going to read the material before commenting? Or will you just keep on slandering me and derailing the discussion?

It used to, and Vod even kept it so by posting a second negative rating (when someone countered his shit rating) to remove others' ability to "neutralize" it until my profile was red for the time Vod wanted. And right now he has reduced my "trust score" from dark green to yellow or something like that -- I don't even know because Vod is on my distrust list due to his illogical & dishonest conduct of rating people.

Can you start reading the material before commenting nonsense?

I'm aware of that the trust system has nothing to do with following or enforcing the law. As you can see, the US law was brought up by o_e_l_e_o and I was replying to him.

Vod "thinks" that my behavior is scammy, yes. Earlier he said he sees nothing wrong in that. How much do you trust someone whose "opinion" changes like that? His opinion suddenly changed after I told him that I don't specifically trust him. I think he thought he had earned some status in my eyes -- he hadn't but now he has.



Untrue. Read the thread. There's discussion about the possible ways to improve DT system and reduce abuse of it. Vod is a nice example of how the DT system is abused. His current rating towards me consists of a quite unwarranted claim of me scamming someone, and of proven lies where he claims I've admitted to scamming. Try to see the forest instead of one tree.

In a real auction house, completely normal. Being a technical operator of the auction process doesn't add or remove any capability to act as a bidder. Your opinions have no say in this. In any case, nobody was scammed and Vod is spreading bullshit in various ways. How about going back to on-topic and starting to digest that (the abuse done by DT members)?

Read the message above.

I did not specify that the auction is without reserve. As you can see, the US law sees auctions without specific notice of no reserve as having reserve by default. You don't know much about auctions when you're claiming that deceptive actions were done by me.

Btw, how deceptive do you see Vod's proven lies and scam accusations? Faked quotes, faked attributions? Lies on top of lies? Why don't you comment any of that?

Read the quote you quoted. There's nothing unlawful or scammy in this behavior. Not providing advance notice doesn't make it unlawful or scammy. Also, for the sake of it, I'm not US citizen. Also, as I've said earlier, I will (and have since) presented clearly if there's a reserve price of any kind. This is to increase transparency, as concealed reserve price is not common here.

Btw, the same section you quoted also says:



The item was sold to the highest bidder, that being me. Second highest bidder did not win the item. Yes, I was also the auctioneer of the item. Your definition of a scam, or attempted scam, or whatever related to scamming, seems to be out of the line.

You're being intellectually dishonest. It's irrelevant to talk about marginal cases. Of course negative trust affects the ability to conduct business, and in many cases, prevents people from conducting business. Obviously one doesn't want to trade with someone whose account page has a bright red notice saying "Warning: Trade with extreme caution!". This of course doesn't mean that *everyone* will be unable to conduct business with *everyone*. Some people see through bullshit red ratings, but for big majority it's a huge red flag and trading business is conducted elsewhere.


Alright. I don't really understand why you're highlighting that you "would check carefully to see that you hadn't employed a shill on an auction of yours". As you *should* know by now, regardless of the lies presented by some idiot, I've not shill-bidded. I've bidded on my own auction on my own account as a measure of concealed reserve price. This was one-time case 2-3 years ago. This is completely normal in various auctions, but not in bitcointalk auctions -- which I learned back then. Btw, I don't care about the shitty account and trust games people play here -- I'm not part of that.

Someone not too dense would maybe understand to look at other factors here. Isn't it a bit weird that someone pops up and starts red-rating after years since some event he wasn't even part of and actually commented earlier that he saw nothing wrong in the said event? Please read this thread and follow the links to find out that Vod is bullshitting and nobody gives a shit. In some other cases where Vod nor I are in, people have feared to say anything against the wrongdoer because getting red-rates is extremely easy and getting dropped from DT2 is very easy too. It's so very fragile for active members and on the other hand so damn rigid if you're on DT1 or DT2'd by people not actively around anymore.


It doesn't present to an individual as a huge mess unless you're a victim of it. Many are. Naturally you don't feel the pain, because your say actually weights, due to being in DT. You have the tools to work against potential abusers, which there are not too many, because who would go against someone with a gun? I'm with no gun, so Vod can currently freely misuse his position against me.


You agree with the proven lies he presents in his feedback?

I've not scammed anyone, I've not acted in a scammy way. But I know it's easy to think like that when you don't think about it properly. There's absolutely nothing scammy in having a concealed reserve price, presented as the bidder bidding on the auction. Auction rules are same for everyone. Vod also agreed that I did nothing scammy in there. Later he started, regardless of that, using it as a weapon against me due to other reasons. This auction event is the only thing he can find about me that can remotely trigger emotions like it does on e.g. you. Think about it and understand that self-bidding on an auction carries no scammy behavior at all.  In any case, this Vod's rating towards me is not even about that. Read the damn thread!


His rating is proven to be dishonest. Here's the said rating: "Scammed other users by bidding on his own auction. States he does not believe this is unethical. Also admitted to me in PM he lied about this matter."

First of all, nobody was scammed. Auction was held according to the stated rules. In my country it's perfectly normal for the auctioneer to take part in the auction too. Auctioneer is only carrying the technical process of the auction -- nothing more. He has no different position, when he's bidding, than any other bidder. And again, that auction event is only a tool used by Vod, as he has absolutely nothing else to present that would trigger emotions on people about me. Secondly, I've *not* admitted to any lying in any messages whatsoever. I've not lied. It's complete bullshit by Vod. How is that "honest" for you?



Why are you commenting things you don't know about?  Vod rated me twice and removed the other rating. Someone positively rated me which triggered Vod to reinstate the red trust score on me by sending a new red rating. Later Vod removed it as the positive rating was also removed after "discussions" with DT.

My two ratings are about two separate issues. First him calling me a scammer for no reason, and second for acting in an incredibly unresponsible, pathetic and scummy way while being on DT.

These issues are still unsolved. DT system needs major changes. It's a huge mess and power fight around the DT right now. Please do something about it. Some measures to disincentivize abusal of DT is needed. E.g. in my case, Vod apparently continues to do what he does after misusing and lying about me, and others, via the DT system. He should not be in the DT -- then his lies would be almost completely irrelevant.