Trust system abuse / DT2 member Vod is provably dishonestly rating people

[Anduck]

Auctioneer bidding on the auctioned item is perfectly fine around the world in various auctions. It's a form of concealed reserve price.

I have never, never heard about auctions who allow a person auctioning an item to bid on it in order to set a concealed reserve price.    Again, do you have examples of auction houses that allow that?

I can imagine an auction house allows that if they take 10-15% commission. And if the seller bids 20 million on his own item, I can imagine they don't mind taking 2-3 million of his money as commission so that he can buy back his own item.
That high commission makes it very unattractive to the seller to do.

You say it's allowed under US law. Personally, I have nothing to do with their law, as I'm not in their country. Whether it's allowed or not, it strikes me as "weird" to bid on your own auction, and it's certainly not something I would expect to happen. And I'm not the only one. In your auction thread, you surprised wheelz1200, Lairew, acharias, Lincoln6Echo and minerjones.

On the other hand, thread USER ANDUCK Bidding on own auction.. was opened 1.5 years after the auction, and based on User Vod abusing DT position (petty red-rating with provable lies as a reason) it really looks like a personal conflict between the two of you.

Thanks for a sensible take on this.

I'm also not under the US law. I am mentioning it because o_e_l_e_o mentioned things about it. Also when speaking of auction standards, the US law may show some hints about those, in general.

I perfectly understand your view of seeing it as weird & unexpected. It was unclarity in the auction rules, which I'm of course responsible of. Yet it's not dishonesty or scamming. Auction rules were the same for everyone, regardless of the role of one of them being the auctioneer. Auctions in general are not some "who gets whatever the cheapest", even though some people these days see them as such. It's not necessarily so. Most auctions come with a reserve, hidden or disclosed. When speaking of standards, the standard at least in US law is that an auction comes with a reserve price. I now know that this is not the standard in bitcointalk forums, and I perfectly understand the weirdness it causes when it's not stated whether there's a reserve or not. (This forum is used to non-written no reserve price being the standard.)

But yes, this is not about the auction. This is a personal conflict between me and Vod. I've been saying this all the time, yet people drag this auction in the discussion and try to reason Vods wrongdoing to be the correct. Vod is provably lying. People don't comment that at all, which strikes to me as very weird.

For what it's worth, TMAN opened that thread because we had a stupid personal conflict back then, which was btw quickly resolved. Funny how long-lasting effect it has.

[The Sceptical Chymist]

There is no PM existing where that happens. It's a lie made to back his earlier lie where I, claimed by him, scam people. Here's a proof of wrongdoing by a DT member. What is your action regarding it? I know: silence.

And what about those fake quotes, backpedaling and lies about who made them? Then getting caught again for bullshit. And again: silence.

I'm only commenting on Vod's feedback on you that addresses you bidding on your own auction.  That's the extent of it.  I'm not the one who tagged you, it was Vod, and I don't know all the details of this whole debacle you keep alluding to--and it's not my fight.  Vod may have some wrongs to right, but that's his call and it's between you and him.  Obviously actmyname didn't agree with Vod's feedback and countered it with a positive, so that's good for you.

The only thing I'm writing about is the bidding-on-your-own-auction thing, which I think is unethical, and it's why places like eBay don't allow it and why they offer reserves and minimum starting bids and a lot of other things.  Even if this forum isn't eBay, the fact that you bid on your own auction is ludicrous behavior to me.  There's obviously some politics behind Vod's feedback about that, but that's your issue to deal with.

[Anduck]

Yet no scamming or dishonesty happened.

Must be language barrier. I have no other way to explain how you can keep claiming that failing to disclose the existence of reserve and/or your intent to bid isn't dishonest.

I don't think we have a language barrier here. Let's try to digest this properly. Who was scammed here? The auction rules did not mention existence of a reserve price, nor the lack of reserve price. (Standard, at least in US law, seems to be that auctions have a reserve.) Standard in these forums seems to be the contrary. But who did I scam and what was the dishonest action I did? Why particularly has the auctioneer announce his willingness to possibly bid, too? Why are other bidders not announcing such? What makes the auctioneer not worth the same as any other bidder? Auctioneer can't change the way the auction will roll, not any more than any other bidder could.

[Anduck]

There is no PM existing where that happens. It's a lie made to back his earlier lie where I, claimed by him, scam people. Here's a proof of wrongdoing by a DT member. What is your action regarding it? I know: silence.

And what about those fake quotes, backpedaling and lies about who made them? Then getting caught again for bullshit. And again: silence.

I'm only commenting on Vod's feedback on you that addresses you bidding on your own auction.  That's the extent of it.  I'm not the one who tagged you, it was Vod, and I don't know all the details of this whole debacle you keep alluding to--and it's not my fight.  Vod may have some wrongs to right, but that's his call and it's between you and him.  Obviously actmyname didn't agree with Vod's feedback and countered it with a positive, so that's good for you.

Someone else publicly disagreed with Vod too, and rated me positively, but Vod "discussed" it so this someone removed his rating after Vod had "overruled" it by placing a new red rating. To me it looked like consequences would have followed if this removal wasn't done. That's the reality & sickness of the DT system.

Why are you not commenting the obvious wrongdoing by Vod (the latter part of his rating), but are still commenting the rating for the first part? You're only commenting the part which can be reasoned to be correct on some unreasonable level, but on reasonable level is unjustified & dishonest. This whole thing is a personal conflict between me and Vod, resulting in him slandering me publicly by abusing/misusing his DT position. It has nothing to do with this auction itself --it's just the only tool Vod found to be useful against me. I am not harassing him. How it started? I told him, privately, that I don't trust him specifically. He got insulted, I guess, and this is the result. It's so sickening.

The only thing I'm writing about is the bidding-on-your-own-auction thing, which I think is unethical, and it's why places like eBay don't allow it and why they offer reserves and minimum starting bids and a lot of other things.  Even if this forum isn't eBay, the fact that you bid on your own auction is ludicrous behavior to me.  There's obviously some politics behind Vod's feedback about that, but that's your issue to deal with.

Can you tell us why you feel it's unethical? How is the auctioneer in any special position compared to other bidders when he's bidding?

Whatever is behind Vod's feedback doesn't truly matter. Only that he's red-rating me and lying in his rating. Community is just watching, doing nothing about it. And of course some voices are trying to keep it down by derailing and picking up irrelevant stuff, to steer the narrative and public view.

[TMAN]

For what it's worth, TMAN opened that thread because we had a stupid personal conflict back then, which was btw quickly resolved. Funny how long-lasting effect it has.

Err... yea looks like I started this one, and I actually feel bad about it. The culture of Finland is different than the rest of the world in many ways - Anduck is a pretty straight up guy when you get to know him, as a Fin and his comments can be taken the wrong way when he has no malicious intent..

For all of you who aren't aware fins are quite a unique set of people, here is kimi the F1 driver for reference - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlbjnZbxEcI

I can tell you I would trust Anduck with any amount of funds, he is not a scammer, this is just a misunderstanding that has escalated with a personality clash

So for what its worth, I actually respect the Duck for who he is - and of course VOD is a deity around here and I got mucho respecto for him as well, this has turned into a pissing contest of semantics between two well known members which isn't cool - got enough drama's in this place as it is. I can see Anduck's point about the reserve (although I do not agree with it, I am sure it was not done with malicious intent) And I know Vod only does what he does for the benefit of the forum as the high sheriff that he is.

But - this was fucking ages ago now.. Surely there is someway you two can french kiss and make up?

[suchmoon]

Yet no scamming or dishonesty happened.

Must be language barrier. I have no other way to explain how you can keep claiming that failing to disclose the existence of reserve and/or your intent to bid isn't dishonest.

I don't think we have a language barrier here. Let's try to digest this properly. Who was scammed here? The auction rules did not mention existence of a reserve price, nor the lack of reserve price. (Standard, at least in US law, seems to be that auctions have a reserve.) Standard in these forums seems to be the contrary. But who did I scam and what was the dishonest action I did? Why particularly has the auctioneer announce his willingness to possibly bid, too? Why are other bidders not announcing such? What makes the auctioneer not worth the same as any other bidder? Auctioneer can't change the way the auction will roll, not any more than any other bidder could.

Stop harping about the US law. This is not a court case.

You're not just the auctioneer. You're the seller too, no commission involved here, so you can bid a million bucks and essentially cancel the auction without explicitly doing so. It's a shitty thing to do, particularly since you hadn't disclosed that option in advance. Why didn't you just say "Fuck it, I'm not gonna ship this to you" to the winner?

[Anduck]

Stop harping about the US law. This is not a court case.

You're not just the auctioneer. You're the seller too, no commission involved here, so you can bid a millions bucks and essentially cancel the auction without explicitly doing so. It's a shitty thing to do, particularly since you hadn't disclosed that option in advance. Why didn't you just say "Fuck it, I'm not gonna ship this to you" to the winner?

I don't like to bring up the US law either. However, it can very well act as some sort "standards" guidance partially, in general, as standards and expectancies are what we're discussing here apparently.
The auction was ongoing when auctioneer bid, and is severely different from anything that would be done after the auction ends and against the auction rules.

[suchmoon]

Stop harping about the US law. This is not a court case.

You're not just the auctioneer. You're the seller too, no commission involved here, so you can bid a millions bucks and essentially cancel the auction without explicitly doing so. It's a shitty thing to do, particularly since you hadn't disclosed that option in advance. Why didn't you just say "Fuck it, I'm not gonna ship this to you" to the winner?

I don't like to bring up the US law either. However, it can very well act as some sort "standards" guidance partially, in general, as standards and expectancies are what we're discussing here apparently.
The auction was ongoing when auctioneer bid, and is severely different from anything that would be done after the auction ends and against the auction rules.

So it's against auction rules to just refuse to sell to the highest bidder. But to do a functionally equivalent "fuck you" via self-bidding is ok? Come on now. Even in Finland that must be considered not cool.

[TMAN]

So it's against auction rules to just refuse to sell to the highest bidder. But to do a functionally equivalent "fuck you" via self-bidding is ok? Come on now. Even in Finland that must be considered not cool.

Anduck is using RL auctions as a backup for his actions, and after being to hundreds of property and car auctions over the last 25 years I have to back him up on this. you go to a car auction in the UK the auctioneer does bid the price up and if the car does not get to the reserve (it is hidden in most cases) then the hammer doesn't go down and the auction ends.

The issue here is that Anduck obviously wasn't aware of the way it is seen on the forum and the fact that he keeps beating the drum about it in these threads isn't helping his cause, especially since things have escalated to the tune of a megathread!

Unless both Anduck and Vod agree to disagree and work out a way to get along this issue wont go away - but banging heads like this is just retarded guys..

Whats the definition of insanity again?

[suchmoon]

So it's against auction rules to just refuse to sell to the highest bidder. But to do a functionally equivalent "fuck you" via self-bidding is ok? Come on now. Even in Finland that must be considered not cool.

Anduck is using RL auctions as a backup for his actions, and after being to hundreds of property and car auctions over the last 25 years I have to back him up on this. you go to a car auction in the UK the auctioneer does bid the price up and if the car does not get to the reserve (it is hidden in most cases) then the hammer doesn't go down and the auction ends.

I've been to a few auctions IRL as well but I don't recall one where the existence of reserve/floor would not be disclosed. And Anduck pretty much admits that this was simply to prevent the bidder from getting the item, so why not just cancel the auction or tell them to fuck off. His refusal to even admit that this could be considered dishonest is baffling to say the least and I would probably avoid dealing with him because I can't guess what other bizarre ideas he might have.

You're right though, it's pointless. My excuse is that I'm already insane so what do I have to lose

[TMAN]

I've been to a few auctions IRL as well but I don't recall one where the existence of reserve/floor would not be disclosed.

it is common practice in parts of Europe. I see both sides of this shit show and both parties are right and both are wrong and neither will back down..

Unfortunate as I rate both of these people highly, and this thread isn't even entertaining in anyway, now it is a penis measuring contest that neither will win..

[Vod]

now it is a penis measuring contest that neither will win..

?  I left appropriate feedback based on what I consider scammy behaviour.

I consider the matter closed and am not participating in any contest.

[Anduck]

...

Suchmoon, do you recognize how incredibly dishonest you portray yourself here? This is to help you realize you're losing all the legitimacy you have, if you still have any.

First of all, as I told you before, events happening during the auctions are severely different from anything that would happen after the auction. You're all the time coming up with after-the-auction examples, which are not applicable at all. I know you're not this dense to not understand this, so your behavior here falls under intellectual dishonesty.

I see you're pointing out in other threads how people lie etc. Why are you not saying a single word about Vod here? No comments at all about all these proven wrongdoings: lying about several things, faking a quote, faking attribution of a quote and blackmailing. All of these things are obvious and proven dishonesty perfectly available for you to see. And yet you're here blabbering about me.

I do understand you're buddies or something alike with Vod and do not want to say anything about him or his actions that would trigger this insanity on you too. So when you're not fair and not going to be fair, how about you stop participating in the discussion completely?

[Anduck]

now it is a penis measuring contest that neither will win..

?  I left appropriate feedback based on what I consider scammy behaviour.

I consider the matter closed and am not participating in any contest.

Untrue. You left me red feedback, because you told me that will happen if I don't do what you want. This is a proven fact, verifiable from the sources linked in this thread.
Previously you had also said you see nothing scammy in the behaviour. "Suddenly" that changed, right? And just happened to align with your blackmailing attempt. After 1.5 years.

Of course you would want this to be closed, because you're the one with guns. Your red rating weights on me, but mine on you really doesn't, because of the DT system. Of course you're happy if you can get away with blatantly lying, faking quotes & attributions etc dishonesty. You blocked me from communicating with you privately to avoid any chance of private resolution of our personal problems. Again, that doesn't surprise me because you're the one with guns.

This account/user Vod has already caused me irrecoverable losses by misusing his DT position against me. It's time to stop this from happening to others, and it's happening all the time.

[Vod]

You blocked me from communicating with you privately to avoid any chance of private resolution of our personal problems.

I consider the matter closed.  There is nothing to discuss privately. 

[suchmoon]

incredibly dishonest you portray yourself here
you're losing all the legitimacy
your behavior here falls under intellectual dishonesty
you're here blabbering about me
you're buddies or something alike with Vod
you're not fair and not going to be fair

Disagreeing with you does not mean any of the above things. So calm down, unbunch your panties, and lock the fucking thread if you don't want people posting in it.

[OgNasty]

I spoke with the people at the Barrett-Jackson auction house today. While talking, I asked them this question. Their representative laughed at me and assured me that no owners would be permitted to bid on their own items. Barrett-Jackson is the most popular auctioneer I’ve ever heard of, so I think we can use them as a metric for what is or is not acceptable. As someone who has attended similar auctions dating as far back as the 80s, I would agree that this is the expectation of those involved.

Now that qualified experts have weighed in, the real issue here is whether or not Vod should be in DT2. I would recommend Anduck reach out to those who have added him for an explanation regarding this topic. However, since the feedback seems to be in line with expert opinion, the only thing left to really examine is how long after a misdeed it is appropriate to leave feedback. This is in my opinion the proper debate here.

My 0.00000002 BTC

[Anduck]

I spoke with the people at the Barrett-Jackson auction house today. While talking, I asked them this question. Their representative laughed at me and assured me that no owners would be permitted to bid on their own items. Barrett-Jackson is the most popular auctioneer I’ve ever heard of, so I think we can use them as a metric for what is or is not acceptable. As someone who has attended similar auctions dating as far back as the 80s, I would agree that this is the expectation of those involved.

Now that qualified experts have weighed in, the real issue here is whether or not Vod should be in DT2. I would recommend Anduck reach out to those who have added him for an explanation regarding this topic. However, since the feedback seems to be in line with expert opinion, the only thing left to really examine is how long after a misdeed it is appropriate to leave feedback. This is in my opinion the proper debate here.

My 0.00000002 BTC

Thanks for weighing in.

Did the Barrett-Jackson auction house representative tell you why owners wouldn't be permitted bidding?
I think it's already clear to all of us that there are different standards around the world related to auctions. In my country, in the local auction houses, it's perfectly normal if the owner bids on the item. As has been explained several times, being the owner of the item doesn't increase or decrease ones ability to act as a bidder too. The rules are same for everyone. In this one case 2-3 years ago, it was not stated whether the auction had reserve or no reserve, and lead to some confusion. This has been hashed for quite some time now. It should also be clear that self-bidding is in no way dishonesty or scamming, and stating whether there's a reserve or no reserve is the correct practice as there's no universal "default".

That auction is not even related to the topic of this thread, and vaguely related to the rating itself. Vods rating towards me is not due to some auction. Vod rated me red, because he promised to do so if I didn't bend to his blackmailing. It's that simple and proofs are publicly available. This auction thing is simply the only tool Vod found to be remotely useful to suit his action.
Additionally, his rating contains this lie "Also admitted to me in PM he lied about this matter" -- this has not happened. I've asked Vod to present this PM several times, but he can't -- obviously because he would need to fake it. He already did fake a quote, so it wouldn't surprise me. See how Vod first makes up a quote, claims it was said by me, then goes back and say it was not said by me but someone else faked it (when he faked it (attributed the quote to me) himself), and then still keeps on reasoning his actions based on that fake quote..
Obviously some 1.5 years old auction (at the time of Vod rating me red) is not the root of this rating. It's all presented in this thread, follow the links, e.g. this. Whenever Vod claims I've done something, please try to find out the proof for that. There's always nothing. E.g. when he claims that I told Vod I trust him. That hasn't happened. E.g. when Vod claims I've admitted lying. That hasn't happened. E.g. when Vod claims I've lied. That hasn't happened. There's simply nothing to back any of those claims except Vod's words.

OgNasty, we both know that half of the DT are inactive, been for years. It's not like they're going to come read this single case of wrongdoing, and it's not like they're going to remove Vod because of it. Vod has done much good for the forum, so is one wrongdoing worth it to nullify all that, in their eyes?

[suchmoon]

He already did fake a quote, so it wouldn't surprise me. See how Vod first makes up a quote, claims it was said by me, then goes back and say it was not said by me but someone else faked it (when he faked it (attributed the quote to me) himself), and then still keeps on reasoning his actions based on that fake quote..

See shit like this is why I wouldn't trust you. It's very obvious that this quote was made up by another user with no bad intentions and then got misquoted. I got fooled by it too and asked if it was correct. Yet you keep insisting that Vod made it up when there is proof to the contrary just a few posts above that:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4415201.msg39391773#msg39391773

[Anduck]

He already did fake a quote, so it wouldn't surprise me. See how Vod first makes up a quote, claims it was said by me, then goes back and say it was not said by me but someone else faked it (when he faked it (attributed the quote to me) himself), and then still keeps on reasoning his actions based on that fake quote..

See shit like this is why I wouldn't trust you. It's very obvious that this quote was made up by another user with no bad intentions and then got misquoted. I got fooled by it too and asked if it was correct. Yet you keep insisting that Vod made it up when there is proof to the contrary just a few posts above that:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4415201.msg39391773#msg39391773

He placed the "Anduck" in that quote. He claimed someone else did it. He still based his reasons on that quote, even though he acknowledged it's fake. I did give him benefit of doubt as it was likely a honest mistake by him, but after he didn't really show any hint of it being a mistake, it's hard to give him that doubt anymore.

Who placed the "Anduck" in that quote if it wasn't Vod? Nobody attributed that quote to be said by me, until Vod wrote that "Anduck" in it.

And here Vod is denying attributing the quote to me.