puwaha, if a computer or device is purpose built to transmit data over the powerlines, yes, it can do that. But to claim that a generic PC from a run of the mill manufacturer has this built in as a backdoor is utter stupid.
By the way, I initially thought your back and forth with the other guy would keep this thread alive and may be generate some traffic, but if the thread is full of his nonsense on topics not even on a tangent, it would actually hurt us. Just ignore him. I think plenty have understood who represents what in this thread and community.
You are right. I was hoping we could get into some finer points like how a power factor circuit in a switched power supply is designed to smooth out a rectifed AC to DC conversion thus destroying any "command and control" that a bad actor like the NSA could possibly use in one-way communications with a compromised computer. Or how the loop-back DC circuit could supply some bad and possibly interesting harmonics if a C&C signal did somehow make it through. I could have been an interesting discussion. But I'm done with it. Back on topic... I think the devs are getting way too much flack for their decision to delay introducing any POW algorithm changes. Their decision was a hard one, but ultimately their decision was based on the security of the network which is more important. I know many GPU miners are disappointed, but changing to a new algorithm opens them up to new 51% attacks from another Nicehash GPU onslaught. When the equihash ASIC were first announced, I saw a little bit of a knee-jerk reaction from the devs and that worried me. They had a few months to consider some options, but this kind of change is not easy. I like the position that they would rather be the leader of an algorithm, than just chase their tails trying to prevent ASICs every six months like Monero is trying to do. They need to complete their consensus changes, and then take a look at alternatives like ProgPOW, MTP, etc. Ultimately it's the features of an altcoin that will make people want to use it, not whether it can be mined by a GPU or ASIC... that's petty stuff. |
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Lol... did you actually bother to watch it? All they were doing was sniffing and jamming existing powerline communication protocols like X10 using an arduino. Your computer does not communicate over powerlines using X10, Zigbee, Homeplug, or any other standard powerline communication protocol without an external device connected to it to interpret those signals... a modem.
So, again... you proved my point.
Now, they did touch on a method that has been well known for a long time for penetration testing where you use powerline ethernet devices to get inside your corporate network. But again... you need a powerline modem on the inside... that requires you to get it inside the building... and that is just standard ethernet hacking at that point. You can sniff for traffic, attempt password hacks, known exploits... all standard hacking. None of this supports your claim that by simply plugging your computer to a power line, the NSA can spy on you.
Again, let me remind you. Didn't I say, it's NOT done this way. That it was only to give you a "taste of the possibilities." Read my damn comment, ass hole. Did I not say, that what they were showing was NOT how the government and/or corporations use the power line to record you and/or hack you? I'm quite certain I said that. But NO, you have to go and put words in my mouth like an ignorant ass and claim that's what I intended to convey when I said contrary to your very claim. So... let me summarize what you've done here: - Make an outlandish claim that the NSA can spy on you with nothing more than you plugging your computer into a power outlet
- When called out on that, you spout non-sequiturs about how telephone transmissions work
- When asked how is it physically possible for a computer to do that, you claim advanced knowledge of how telephone transmissions work... side-stepping what you were called out on
- When asked how is a signal modulated from a computer with no hardware to do so, you ignore the question and keep on insulting claiming that they don't know how anything works
- Makes another outlandish claim that pulsed DC is AC... when it's not
- Then you move the goal posts and say that Smart Home devices can be hacked, which I agree with
- Finally, you try to provide proof that anything you've said was possible... but you say it wasn't meant to be proof
As for your "claim" of something "must" be done a certain way or "have" a certain thing to do something; your mind is weak and easily manipulated in regards to engineering and stuck inside of a box. I still find it hard to believe you're an engineer. The laws of physics and electronics are damn stubborn things. There's a saying we have in the circuit design field... "Logic is logic." I'm not telling you shit cause you don't know shit. Your lack of knowledge of longitudinal and metallic current proves you don't know what you claim to know. Especially, in regards to "transmission." I actually already told you more than enough for you to figure it out on your own if you actually understood longitudinal current, metallic current and HOW they can be converted. But do they actually have to be converted? Can they not "bleed" over when they "naturally" convert; especially when encountering an unbalance or the transmission of a signal or harmonic is above a certain level (dB)? Hint Hint... LOL... But your head is so damn puffed up you can't get it out of your ass. Besides, your "not an engineer" ass is just too damn ignorant and honestly not worth my time.  In other words... you can't explain how it is physically possible for the NSA to spy on your computer by simply plugging it into a power outlet? Got it. Your claims of technical prowess are your own. Feel free to take your ball and go home if that is your choice. Others on here can continue to think I'm wearing a tinfoil hat as well. Go ahead, be my guest. The truth is, all of you tin foil hat talkers are too damn ignorant to KNOW how ignorant you actually are. If you don't understand longitudinal and metallic currents and how longitudinal current can convert to metallic current OR be at a hot level and be heard while monitoring metallically; you simply won't understand. It's simply not worth my time and effort to be on here for a couple of days explaining noise mitigation, power influence (longitudinal current) and noise (metallic current). Why are those important? Because you have to understand the power line first before you can understand how it can be used in transmission of data. You have to also understand how those longitudinal and metallic currents (frequencies) can bleed over transformers into devices and from those devices back on the power line through the transformer.
I've actually said enough already. I'll let your so-called electrical engineer ignorant ass figure it out.
Ok... one last time... What device that comes in your standard computer can modulate a signal, send it backwards through a DC current, have that signal survive being transformed back into AC and sent along it's merry way to the NSA? I'll let your so-called "transmission engineer" self try to figure that out. In the mean time, leave the circuit design, and the understanding of the laws of electromagnetic physics to us "so-called electrical engineers." The challenge still stands if you want to take a serious crack at it rather than hurling insults. |
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Is your modem in your computer to communicate this very moment? HELL NO! Your modem is OUTSIDE of your computer as we speak to act as a mediator between you and your IP. I've already told you smart meters act as a modem (mediator) to communicate not only with appliances but also with your computers through the electrical wiring in your house. If you want to choose to ignore this FACT, then so be it. That's on you. You need two devices... one to modulate, and one to demodulate a signal across a power line. If your smart meter is one... where is the other one? How does this modem interface with your computer? Bottom Line: You're an ignorant ass who claims to be an electrical engineer but have exhibited that is further from the truth. I'm DONE with you! Not going to bother wasting my time any further with an Ignorant ass like yourself spamming up this board.[/b] How am I the "ass" when you are the one shouting, calling people names, and trying to defend a non-defendable assertion? The NSA cannot spy on your computer simply by you connecting it to the power line. Your computer has no physical ability to modulate a signal without specialized hardware to do so. The simple fact that you claim it to be so... but cannot describe how it can be done... does not make me the "ass." A SMALL TASTE FROM 2012 OF WHAT I KNOW FOR A "FACT" THE INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO FOR A "LONG" TIME: Again, ONLY a SMALL taste... This ONLY scratches the surface of what I "KNOW" for a "FACT" they can do. So, keep acting like a damn ignorant fool. I know this to be a FACT just from my experience in the field for 3 decades as a Transmission Engineer in the communications field.DO NOT ASSUME I'M SAYING THIS IS HOW THE GOVERNMENT IS RECORDING EVERYTHING YOU DO. IT'S ACTUALLY DONE A TOTALLY DIFFERENT WAY AND DONE WITH THE SMART METER ACTING AS THE MEDIATOR BETWEEN YOUR COMPUTER AND THE AGENCY OR CORPORATION RECORDING YOUR DATA (EVERYTHING YOU DO). I'm simply showing you if this is possible through existing hardware in peoples home, it's also very possible through a smart meter acting as the modem. Then, maybe you're wondering how the signal is converted (modulated) at the transformer in the computer when it converts AC to DC to communicate with your computer. That's for those like me and engineers at DARPA to know and for everyone else to figure out. I specialize on everything that connects everything together. NOT the actual devices that are connected. I can tell you what has to be done to communicate between two or more parties on whatever infrastructure you want each parties equipment to communicate under during a particular condition. It's up to other engineers of that equipment to get it done. DEFCON 19: Hacking Your Victims Over Power Lines (w speaker) - REMINDER - This ONLY provides an example of the possibilities. You would be surprised what they can do through a smart meter. Guess where the majority of those smart meters are made. China - v=XjBJHy1hD_A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjBJHy1hD_A
Lol... did you actually bother to watch it? All they were doing was sniffing and jamming existing powerline communication protocols like X10 using an arduino. Your computer does not communicate over powerlines using X10, Zigbee, Homeplug, or any other standard powerline communication protocol without an external device connected to it to interpret those signals... a modem. So, again... you proved my point. Now, they did touch on a method that has been well known for a long time for penetration testing where you use powerline ethernet devices to get inside your corporate network. But again... you need a powerline modem on the inside... that requires you to get it inside the building... and that is just standard ethernet hacking at that point. You can sniff for traffic, attempt password hacks, known exploits... all standard hacking. None of this supports your claim that by simply plugging your computer to a power line, the NSA can spy on you. |
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How would you propose to solve the problem?
That's why I get paid $1,600 to $2,000 a day (8 hours) plus expenses; to answer questions like that. If solving a more serious issue over a longer period of time, the charge can be more with contract. Bottom Line: I've been keeping my mouth shut; waiting to see how ZEN was going to pull this off. I have yet to be convinced. Puwaha is trying to insinuate that everything will go belly up if u dont pay him. I have personally known the guy for 70 decades and I struggle to remember anybody who could vouch for this guys words or behavior. When he was serving in the military Obama asked him to dispatch only two troops to Iraq to track down and nail members of a wealthy muslim family. This guy ordered 20 troops to go after one single family. He sucks at math. I think you need to replace "puwaha" with "dmwardjr" in your statement... then it will be true. I'm not the one who claims some tin-foil hat conspiracy and then tries to dance around with information that has nothing to do with the original claim. |
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I'm NOT going to give a detailed course on here explaining how the conversion from longitudinal currents on the power line can be used to see DATA transmitted in a modem LONGITUDINALLY. POTS (Plain Old Telephone Service) used to be strictly Metallic Current. Now, in the age of VOIP (Voice of Internet Provider), the voice is also transmitted LONGITUDINALLY; NOT METALLICALLY through CLEC's (Competitive Local Exchange Carriers) but metallically through most ILEC's. I'm glad, because honestly, I think you are confused. I'm sure you are great at your job though, but just remember... signal processing doesn't just magically happen. It's quite the opposite actually. You were called out on your NSA tin-foil hat nonsense, and you think that by going on and on about how much you know about telecommunications will prove that you are right. Nothing that you have talked about in the last two pages makes it possible for the NSA to spy on your computer by simply plugging it into the wall. A computer does not have the physical capacity to do what you insinuate without specialized hardware built with specific communication protocols. |
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You kind of just proved my point. Signal modulation and demodulation require a device that can do so. You need a modem to do so. There is no magic device that can do that from your computer unless it is specifically built to do so.
There is equipment on the power line to actually ACT AS THE DAMN MODEM, DUDE.Where is it specifically in your computer? Also, EVER HEARD of SMART APPLIANCES? The power company has plans to shut off devices in the future if they think you're using too much power with that device. At least that's what globalist/environmentalist snowflakes want. Sure, everyone's heard of smart appliances... but they were built with the capability to do so. You computer is not. The power company would NOT need your damn modem (internet) to shut off that appliance. They can shut it off communicating with it through the damn power line in the house. The smart meter acts as a modem. The NSA and CIA have devices they can connect to the power line to act as a modem. YOU JUST DON"T GET IT, DUDE. Yell and scream all you want. You cannot demonstrate that any component in your computer can be turned into a modem. It doesn't matter if the NSA can put a signal on your power line, if there is nothing in your computer that can act on it. Just STOP... lol I agree... you should just stop. You can't demonstrate any way that this is possible on your computer. All you have demonstrated is that with specialized equipment that conforms to a smart appliance standard it could be possible... but your computer is not built like that. You're making a damn fool of yourself. You're simply fortunate most people do not know this. Which means they are unaware you are making a fool of yourself.[/b]
The challenge still stands. You keep dancing around it. |
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Spectre and Meltdown are CPU design flaws having to do with the lack of security in out-of-order instructions. There is no "chip within a chip". Any article that would write that... has no fundamental understanding of the problem. Spectre and Meltdown can affect any CPU with out-of-order instruction processing, unless the OS takes specific measures to prevent it. That includes Intel, AMD, ARM, and many other smaller players. So you are saying the NSA infiltrated all of these companies and specifically told the computer scientists who developed out-of-order instruction processing back in the 1990s... for the express reason to "drop in on you?" That's a long, long game... and that's not what happened.
It was simply a design flaw that was found to be exploitable.
The point I'm making is they KNEW the design flaw was there all along.It only became a design flaw when it was demonstrated to be exploitable. Until then, it was a genius way to speed up instruction execution. Software engineers who work on kernel exec have a responsibility in this too. They were the ones who recognized a problem in the way they designed kernel security and tried to randomize address space to keep an exploit mitigated. This is not a problem of subterfuge from the beginning, but of a retrospect understanding that kernels that don't specifically address a lack of security in chip design could be exploited. |
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That's where you're wrong, Sir. I'm a Transmission Engineer and have taught engineering design of the outside plant to Outside Plant Engineers and Telephone Technicians how to use their meter to identify and locate troubles since July 27, 1997. I've been in the industry since 1984.
I'm not wrong. Signals are useless without something to modulate them and demodulate them. Tell me... what device do you have in your computer right now that can modulate a usable signal across a DC current (that only flows in one direction mind you)... back to your AC/DC converter (power supply), and then re-transmit that signal on an AC current where it can be demodulated by those covert NSA folks you worry about?
So, you're telling me the components in a computer do not use signals between components to tell it what to do? You know what binary code is right? Binary code is transmitted within components in a computer in the form of voltage for a "1" and no voltage for a "0." Frequencies represent PACKAGES of "1's" and "0's" in ADSL. CAN'T DC CURRENT BE SWITCHED ON FOR A DAMN ONE (1) AND OFF FOR A DAMN ZERO (0)? YES, IT CAN. It's called PULSATING DC. Again, JUST STOP MAKING A DAMN FOOL OF YOURSELF. As for explaining the other stuff to you, that will cost you and the ZEN TEAM SOME DAMN MONEY. Seriously? Pulsating DC is not AC. It does not reverse polarity... it's just DC that is pulsed... turned off an on. The direction never changes. Who's the fool again? |
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But again, I'm not going to explain this to you nor do I have to. If you choose to be naive, that's your choice. Not mine... Most of the surveillance done on copper wire is done with Longitudinal Current. SOME is done with Metallic Current over plain old telephone service but not as much as it used to be.[/b]
I challenge you to describe how any type of signal would be able to run in the opposite direction against a DC current, survive a transformation into AC current... none of which is possible... and somehow do this without a modulator in the first place. That's not naivety... that's science. I promise you... the NSA has much easier ways to spy on you.
You're so full of shit, dude. For someone who CLAIMS to be a damn electrical engineer, YOU DON"T KNOW SHIT. ESPECIALLY, About transmission. I'm not going to bother trying to explain it to you IN DETAIL because you want to PRETEND like you know what the hell you're talking about when you don't. You do NOT deserve my time.If you can't keep it civil, then I'm sure you are a peach to work with in the real world. EXAMPLE OF MANY BELOW:
You do NOT even realize the telephone line is POWERED BY DC, dude. Do you? It's 48 to 52 Volts DC. However, when we talk it is AC. When you press buttons to dial out, those are Dual Tone Multiple Frequencies (DTMF Tones). Those tones are AC, Dude that's riding on the same damn two wires as the DC that's powering the circuit. That's only one example of MANY.
Do you not realize when we talk on the telephone line, it is AC but IT IS POWERED BY DC. Meaning, AC AND DC ARE BOTH ON THE SAME COMPONENTS (WIRE - COPPER).
YOU"RE FULL OF SHIT AND NOT WORTHY OF MY TIME. STOP PRETENDING LIKE YOU KNOW SOMETHING WHEN YOU DON"T
Your precious DC current is powering even old rotary phones with 48 to 52 volts DC on the phone line. That's WHY you can still have dial tone with an old rotary phone when the power is out to your house. Well, that precious DC current of yours can be converted into AC current when you talk on the damn phone by an oscillator by varying the capacitance when your voice bounces off the diaphragm to change the distance between the metal in the diaphragm and the metal in the oscillator. Metal plates separated by an insulator is a capacitor. But BOTTOM LINE: AC is on the Tip and Ring WITH YOUR PRECIOUS DC THAT YOU SAID, "NONE OF WHICH IS POSSIBLE." Actually, you're full of shit and do not even know it.
I don't know why I'm even bothering wasting my time explaining this to you. You're a damn ass hole who wants to act like he knows every damn thing. I will tell you this: If I do not know something, I won't hesitate to tell you, "I DO NOT KNOW THAT" and I will NOT feel bad about not knowing it. I'll simply invest the time to get to know it if I feel it's worthy of my time to know it. That way, I avoid wasting someone else's time and I also avoid making a damn fool of myself; pretending I know something if I really don't.
I'm sure there are things you know that I don't know. Does that make you any smarter than me or I than you if I know something you don't? HELL NO.
So, STOP PRETENDING like you know something when you don't. IF YOU'RE NOT 100% SURE OF SOMETHING, YOU NEED TO AVOID MAKING A FLAT STATEMENT. Because it really doesn't look good if you're wrong. No?
Nothing you have written has explained your claim that the NSA can spy on you by simply plugging in your computer to a wall socket. You keep going on and on about phone communications, and it has nothing to do with what your claim is about. No signal is modulated, sent backwards through your power supply, is then re-modulated into AC so that the NSA can spy on you. You keep dancing around the point trying to show how smart you are. You bring up a non-sequitur involving phone communications to try and back your way into the fact that what you claim the NSA can do is impossible. |
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How would you propose to solve the problem?
That's why I get paid $1,600 to $2,000 a day (8 hours) plus expenses; to answer questions like that. If solving a more serious issue over a longer period of time, the charge can be more with contract. Bottom Line: I've been keeping my mouth shut; waiting to see how ZEN was going to pull this off. I have yet to be convinced. It's a community project... so feel free to contribute if you can. |
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Again... there is no signal modulation happening across power lines. A computer has no physical capacity to do so without a modem being covertly added. And at that point, why bother with trying to send signals across a power line? You can just send them wirelessly to a transceiver on the outside of a house.
Look, Sir. You can choose to believe whatever the hell you want to believe. BOTTOM LINE: I've been in this business for over three (3) Decades [In and out of the military] and I KNOW what the hell I'm talking about. You're NOT QUALIFIED to even make such FLAT STATEMENTS you're making. IF you don't even know what Longitudinal and Metallic currents are, YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO COMMENT.You have no idea of my background. Your statements about the NSA being able to spy on you in the way you described are incorrect no matter your qualifications. |
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Yes, that's what a lot of the hoopla was about with intel chips having been found to have a chip within a chip of sorts designed specifically for the NSA to be able to drop in on you without having to use your password. That's why Russia has gone as far as to begin making their own chips to go in their own devices instead of buying chips from Intel and AMD.
Did you not hear about this in the news about a year or two ago. That's the reason Intel stock took a big hit during the time this was made known to the public. I want to say Snowden released that information on Wikileaks as well.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2018/01/09/intel-promises-fix-chip-flaw-left-billions-devices-vulnerable/
I didn't have to hear it in the news to KNOW this was occurring. Spectre and Meltdown are CPU design flaws having to do with the lack of security in out-of-order instructions. There is no "chip within a chip". Any article that would write that... has no fundamental understanding of the problem. Spectre and Meltdown can affect any CPU with out-of-order instruction processing, unless the OS takes specific measures to prevent it. That includes Intel, AMD, ARM, and many other smaller players. So you are saying the NSA infiltrated all of these companies and specifically told the computer scientists who developed out-of-order instruction processing back in the 1990s... for the express reason to "drop in on you?" That's a long, long game... and that's not what happened. It was simply a design flaw that was found to be exploitable. The back door is there just for Apple and for whom Apple allows to use the backdoor. If you want to Trust Tim Cook's Globalist Cabal ass, be my guest. Ok... if you say so. There's TWO (2) DIFFERENT TYPES OF ALTERNATING CURRENT. Meaning, THEY BOTH ALTERNATE BUT IN DIFFERENT WAYS.
Longitudinal Current flows in the SAME direction on two conductors (Tip and Ring) to Ground. From your description, this is called direct current. Alternating current by definition reverses polarity and thus direction periodically. Metallic Current flows in OPPOSITE directions on two conductors (Tip and Ring) and NOT to Ground. I'm pretty sure you know that if you have two opposing currents they cancel each other out based on the combined amplitudes right? The Tip and Ring is the name of each conductor of a twisted pair used in wire line telephone. Where did the term "Tip and Ring" come from? If you watched the Telephone Operator on Andy Griffith at that old switch board with cords; she had a cord with plugs on each end that looked similar in shape to the plugs you see on the end of headphone cords. These cords had a TIP that was Grounded and a Ring around the tip with voltage on it for switching purposes.
[/b] Lol... yes I'm aware. My wife worked at a lawyer's office where they still had a manual switchboard. I was fascinated by this. I'm aware of what tip and ring are. I got a degree in electrical engineering. Hmmm... this sounds made up. AC current is converted to DC current to run a computer. If there was a signal present on the AC current, it would be destroyed in the AC-to-DC conversion. And second... computers don't respond to a signal unless there is a hardware device that can interpret and process the signal. No device exists in your standard computer, and it certainly doesn't exist in your AC-to-DC converter.
That's where you're wrong, Sir. I'm a Transmission Engineer and have taught engineering design of the outside plant to Outside Plant Engineers and Telephone Technicians how to use their meter to identify and locate troubles since July 27, 1997. I've been in the industry since 1984.I'm not wrong. Signals are useless without something to modulate them and demodulate them. Tell me... what device do you have in your computer right now that can modulate a usable signal across a DC current (that only flows in one direction mind you)... back to your AC/DC converter (power supply), and then re-transmit that signal on an AC current where it can be demodulated by those covert NSA folks you worry about? Even ADSL modems use both Longitudinal and Metallic current in it's transmission of data. Why the hell do you think you can still have internet without dial tone caused by a hard short on your twisted pair going to your house? A "HARD" short creates TWO Metallic paths. However, You can still have excellent internet with your ADSL modem with that hard short on the line. You're subject to have no voice transmission but will still have excellent internet transmission with a HARD short. WHY? Because LONGITUDINAL CURRENT isn't studying a short. Longitudinal Current flows on each conductor past that short to ground. As long as there is capacitance to ground; longitudinal current can flow on that conductor until the capacitance to ground ends. You kind of just proved my point. Signal modulation and demodulation require a device that can do so. You need a modem to do so. There is no magic device that can do that from your computer unless it is specifically built to do so. I'm NOT going to give a detailed course on here explaining how the conversion from longitudinal currents on the power line can be used to see DATA transmitted in a modem LONGITUDINALLY. POTS (Plain Old Telephone Service) used to be strictly Metallic Current. Now, in the age of VOIP (Voice of Internet Provider), the voice is also transmitted LONGITUDINALLY; NOT METALLICALLY through CLEC's (Competitive Local Exchange Carriers) but metallically through most ILEC's. I'm glad, because honestly, I think you are confused. I'm sure you are great at your job though, but just remember... signal processing doesn't just magically happen. But again, I'm not going to explain this to you nor do I have to. If you choose to be naive, that's your choice. Not mine... Most of the surveillance done on copper wire is done with Longitudinal Current. SOME is done with Metallic Current over plain old telephone service but not as much as it used to be.[/b]
I challenge you to describe how any type of signal would be able to run in the opposite direction against a DC current, survive a transformation into AC current... none of which is possible... and somehow do this without a modulator in the first place. That's not naivety... that's science. I promise you... the NSA has much easier ways to spy on you. |
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By typing on what device that's "stand alone?" What piece of hardware do you have available to connect to a desktop, laptop or mobile device to encrypt what you type before it goes through that device [encrypted] onto the blockchain? The level of privacy you can expect out of Zenchat is the same level you can expect from any computer/mobile phone/device where you have to type a password or private key. You have to know that it's not compromised. Sounds like a damn political talking point to me. There is no perfect mouse-trap... but it's a good start. So damn what they are stored permanently in the blockchain. I'm sure the NSA stores them as well from key strokes before they ever hit your damn blockchain.
WHY the hell do you think Trezor has a hardware device to encrypt data BEFORE it goes through a device to go to the blockchain?
BECAUSE THEY UNDERSTAND HOW HACKERS and GOVERNMENTS CAN SEE DAMN KEYSTROKES
PRIVACY is not as cut and dry as some of you make it out to be! Are you saying that the NSA has a backdoor into every device? Apple says our data is protected on an iPhone. Yet, the NSA can easily see EVERYTHING in that iPhone without it being unlocked. They can hear people talking even when you THINK the phone is off. All of that crap in the news a while back with CNN and others acting like they were mad at Apple for not allowing the FBI to have a master key to all iPhones to unlock iPhones was nothing but a Psy-Opp. They want the population to think our data is safe on an iPhone when that is further from the truth. Eh... iOS code at Apple goes through rigorous tests to make sure that it's not backdoored or compromised. Unless Apple want a backdoor to exist... it doesn't just appear out of thin air. Here's another example: If you have a smart meter on the side of your house to measure your power consumption, that smart meter can be used to convert longitudinal currents on the power line into metallic currents used by the device [and visa-versa] What are you talking about here? What is a "metallic current?" ...to hack into your lap top or desktop WITHOUT IT CONNECTED TO THE INTERNET VIA CONVENTIONAL SOURCES; such as telephone or cable modems. Your device CAN be connected to via the power outlet the moment you connect it to power to charge it up. There is more to the smart meters on the sides of our homes and businesses than the population is aware of. I bet you didn't know that did you? I worked in intelligence in the Marine Corp. You'll be SURPRISED what the government can do. Hmmm... this sounds made up. AC current is converted to DC current to run a computer. If there was a signal present on the AC current, it would be destroyed in the AC-to-DC conversion. And second... computers don't respond to a signal unless there is a hardware device that can interpret and process the signal. No device exists in your standard computer, and it certainly doesn't exist in your AC-to-DC converter. The power companies were actually trying to get a license to provide internet to customers a few years back but it was denied by the FCC. Why? Because intelligence did not want the cat out of the bag about how they can access devices through the power line without you being connected to the internet via conventional means. Again, this is not correct. You would require a modem that could interpret any signal that rides on the AC current. I worked on a contract about 20 years ago where a newly de-regulated power company was experimenting with providing network services over power lines, but it was unfeasible as the signal is destroyed over any significant distance. Think about "power-line ethernet" that is available today. Signals just do not transmit across breakers and transformers very well. The government can spy on you through a device the moment that device is connected to a power source. Especially, if the power source is monitored by a smart meter. No they can't. To take that previous example about connecting to devices through power lines a bit further: If an agent needs access to a computer held by a terrorist in a country without smart meters, they have to use actual feet on the ground with access to the terrorist power in their building or home to then connect a device to their power line to gain access wirelessly from a safe location to hack their computer the moment it's plugged into power. The terrorist thinks they are safe not connecting to the internet with that device with sensitive information but they are sadly mistaken. Again... there is no signal modulation happening across power lines. A computer has no physical capacity to do so without a modem being covertly added. And at that point, why bother with trying to send signals across a power line? You can just send them wirelessly to a transceiver on the outside of a house. I was actually curious about how ZEN was going to pull this off with PRIVACY of all our data. Because I "KNOW" it's NOT possible without a hardware device that's encrypted before it's connected to any other device. Yes, ZEN would be able to keep users data private from most people. But from governments or institutions with the means and the knowhow to see our data, it's not cut and dry as most people might think.
Right now, all I'm seeing/hearing is a marketing ploy to get adoption with fancy slogans and artwork. I have yet to see any REAL SOLUTIONS from this project to actually keep our data private from governments and institutions with the means and the knowhow to access our data.
How would you propose to solve the problem? |
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Agreed that ASICs suck. They centralize and suck value from coins. I don't believe in equality (regarding income inequality debates) but believe in equal opportunity and not everyone has access to ASICs. (To be overly frank, if you're not sucking Chinese dick you're not getting a good deal on an ASIC in the current market.) ASICs don't centralize or suck value... the people who use them do that. And frankly, when a new coin comes on the market... what do all those GPU miners do? They centralize in pools and mine quickly... then sell off their earnings. None of those actions can be seen as altruistic on the part of GPU miners.
The reason I say ASICs suck value from coins is because ASIC manufacturers put up large capital in order to develop and manufacture them and pass the cost onto the buyers. Ok... they invest money into R&D. They deserve to be paid for their efforts. They are a business, not a charity, right? This becomes increasingly so as the node size shrinks. A buyer might pay $10,000 for a money printing machine that has no other purpose so they are likely to immediately dump coins in order to recoup their investment. I'm mainly looking at Bitmain, all those billions in revenue were siphoned off of coins. Yes, they are a business, so they will dump the coins in order to pay their employees, continue research and development... and you know stay in business. This movement was originally piggybacked on the existing CPU & GPU distribution channels (as fair a distribution as we can hope for PoW hardware in this world). GPUs weren't in the picture in the original days of bitcoin POW. The fact that GPUs were already multi-purpose ASICs seem to be forgotten. Just because they were already on the market... and marketed for a completely different purpose doesn't take away the fact that GPUs quickly displaced CPUs. Now, specialized ASICs are pushing out the multi-purpose ASICs (GPUs), and we are shocked by this? Honestly? GPUs can be used for other applications and so retain value outside of mining, this results in less pressure to immediately dump coins to recoup investment. At the very least I'd say that ASIC sell pressure is heavier. My biggest concern though is that not everyone has access to ASICs and it is a much larger barrier to entry. The pool centralization issue is shared by ASICs and GPUs so I'll punt on that for now. Don't punt that one... that's the heart of the matter when it comes to the "centralized vs. decentralized" argument that everyone likes to skirt around. Some ASIC manufacturers do some shady things. That's probably true. Many people want it to be true. It gives them a boogey-man to hate when their GPU revenues are down. Another consideration is that GPU miners are becoming increasingly aware that they can subsidize their home heating costs and allows them to keep hardware online during unprofitable times which is good for network security. ASICs are loud and impractical for this. The ASIC manufacturers are getting better at this. The Z9 mini isn't too loud, nor is that watercooled Zeno beast. In addition to ZEN the same crisis is being faced by Ethereum and Decred who have recently succumb to ASICs, pushing out GPU miners. I think a solid argument can be made that individuals being able to participate in mining adds value to projects from levels ranging from a gamer mining with a single GPU to larger home miners with 250+ GPUs. So what's the difference between a hobby miner with one ASIC and a "pro" with 250+ ASICs... and your one GPU gamer and "large" home miner with 250+ GPUs?
I think there is a contradiction between your stance that ASICs "centralize" coins when you accept that 250+ GPU "home miners" are ok. That many GPUs is a business, not a hobby.
I don't see 250+ GPU home miners as a threat to centralization. They are spread throughout regions, on different power grids, on different internet backbones, and most importantly they are controlled by us free thinking individuals. Many of us privacy advocates cannot be bought out or coerced to behave maliciously and attack the network. An entity like Bitmain with massive warehouses that stretch farther than the eye can see are centralized, influenced politically, and corruptible. What about the large farms that have 1000's of GPUs all in central locations? I'd like to invite everyone to perform a thought experiment and ask themselves if Bitcoin (the coin with the first mover advantage) would be any different had they chosen to fork off ASICs. The answer to what the ZEN team should do probably lies at the end of this discussion.
In what way did ASICs coming to bitcoin hurt the value or usability of the coin?
My point here is that I think Bitcoin would be at least as successful as it is today if not more so had they forked off ASICs due to even better network effects. Back in 2009 Satoshi didn't have more promising ASIC resistant algorithms like Ethash, ProgPOW, or memory bandwidth constrained algos. There was also no precedent for how things would play out. Bitcoin has a dysfunctional governance that innovates too slow but that is why we're here in the altcoin section looking to ZEN to carry the torch! Fair point. I think the whole Sia coin saga brings home the point of ASIC vs non-ASIC arguments. The coin creators were just fine with having ASICs available to secure their network... as long as it was *their* ASIC you were buying. When they got beat to the punch by a competitor, their first knee-jerk reaction was to see if they should ban the competitor. How would that have helped the coin succeed? |
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With GPU's, one can get involved by mining with a GPU they already have in a desktop; a cheap used one off ebay; from an old desktop collecting dust in the storage room. You name it and people can find a way to get involved cheaply with mining WITHOUT ASIC's. It would draw more people because they would actually be able to AFFORD to get involved. THEN [Through experience] they begin to understand crypto more; the project more and spread the word even more.
GOT IT? This is a utopian ideal, that doesn't work in the real world. As long as there is an incentive to mine, people will find faster and better ways to do so. The whole point to POW was to present an incentive for people to participate and secure the *decentralized* network that supports bitcoin. How many people in the world have the ability or knowledge to mine with a GPU they might already have? Maybe a few million. How many people even have access to a GPU to get even started? Very few. So... let's not act like it's some egalitarian ideal to only allow GPUs to mine a coin. If you wanted your true utopia, you would only allow mining on RISC CPUs like the kind you would find in a mobile phone. A mobile phone is a lot more accessible than a full-on desktop computer with a powerful enough GPU to make more than a few pennies a week. Bottom Line:
ASIC's have slowed down the growth and adoption of Bitcoin. Just as it will slow down the growth and adoption of any other Proof of Work coin that opens its arms to ASIC's. ASICs don't use or adopt bitcoin. People do. The developers/supporters of Monero understand and know this FACT and have resolved to fight against ASIC's. Again, this is not fact... it was the opinion of the Monero developers. How has that parameter change worked out for the value or usability of Monero? Where can I spend my Monero-bucks? ZEN should do the same. ZEN has a LOT of potential and I don't want to see it led astray by BIG ASIC players with money. Cause if they are led astray and open their arms to ASIC's, then the hell with ZEN and any other coin that does the same. I will only support coins that will support a LARGE community of COMMON folk rather than a small community of BIG players with money.
Remember, crypto should be about the SMALL folk; the unbanked; the other 6 billion in the world who have been forgotten.
THERE IS STRENGTH IN NUMBERS OF PEOPLE; NOT IN THE DAMN HASH RATE OF AN INDIVIDUAL AND/OR COMPANY OF ASIC's.
YOU WANT PEOPLE AND A LOT OF THEM? THEN GET RID OF ASIC's AND ALLOW MORE TO GET INVOLVED AFFORDABLY WITHOUT HAVING TO GET A LOAN FOR AN ASIC OR HAVING TO BEG THEIR GOVERNMENT TO ALLOW ASIC's; WHILE COMPETING AGAINST THE MANUFACTURER THE ENTIRE TIME. It's early yet. People have barely heard of "bitcoin"... and you expect them to know about some altcoin called Zencash? Then you want these 6 billion people to be able to mine when they have no access to a computer... let alone a GPU? If ZEN developers and founders want us to catch the crumbs (10%) from the BIG table by making us COMMON folk divide up those crumbs (10%) from running secure nodes, while offering BIG players a seat at the BIG table with their BIG money to make the BIG bucks (70%) mining with ASIC's and push out the SMALL/FORGOTTEN ones (the other 6 billion) to compete over crumbs (10%) with secure nodes; then they can keep their damn coin. I want know part of it! I'll support a coin who actually gives a damn about us COMMON folk and the other 6 billion unbanked people in the world.
I have no problem with people making money. What I have a problem with is fixing the game to make it hard for the small guy to make a decent amount of money and try to get ahead. I have a problem with fixing the game to make the rich richer by squeezing out MEANINGFUL opportunities for the not so fortunate folk.
I'm not asking for a damn handout either! I don't want a hand out. I simply want us all to have the same equal opportunity. That cannot occur with ASIC's. Mainly because of the manufacturers who make them and mine with them; the prices they charge everyone else for them and the governments who ban them.
GOT IT? Your heart is in the right place, but I think you have some ulterior motives... like protecting your investment in GPUs. That's just my opinion on why you are getting so worked up here. ZEN has a damn good opportunity here to tell the entire GPU community, "We have your back and agree with your ambition for decentralized mining and growing the community." I only hope they don't muck it up this opportunity. The longer they wait to do something about ASIC's/FPGA's, the more they are hurting GPU miners while assisting ASIC manufacturers.
In what way would trying to ban ASICs help GPU miners? Increase their profits? Hmmm... I think I see the true motivations here. |
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In what way did ASICs coming to bitcoin hurt the value or usability of the coin?
By pushing many out from mining with GPU's. You just don't get it and you were NOT paying damn attention to his or my arguments. Go back and read them and you will have the answer to your damn question!Dude... you need some chill pills. What was his arguement? MORE people have access to GPU's than ASIC's. In fact, there are many countries that ban ASIC's. With more GPU's there would be more people laboring together and become more invested into the project while acting as missionaries for the project. The more a coin gets centralized by BIG ASIC mining companies, the less people there are who can even afford to invest into labor for the coin in the form of mining. Which gives no incentive to invest time and/or equity into the project and does NOT convert newcomers into a missionary for the project and ultimately help the project grow and become adopted much faster.
But you can't seem to understand and/or don't want to acknowledge this commonsense FACT he spells out in his argument (below).[/color] What fact? All you and gghost have done is expressed an opinion that GPUs are more "decentralized," when that couldn't be further from the truth. You do know that there are massive, massive farms of GPUs out there, right? You do know that a government banning something does not make a coin more decentralized, right? What was my argument? Quite simply a misplaced one. |
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I think nvidia priced the cards to keep miners away for a while. They didn't want miners scooping them up in bulk before gamers had a chance to get their hands on them. If nothing else, it should keep the value of the 1000 series a little higher on the secondary market before nvidia starts dropping prices before Christmas.
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Agreed that ASICs suck. They centralize and suck value from coins. I don't believe in equality (regarding income inequality debates) but believe in equal opportunity and not everyone has access to ASICs. (To be overly frank, if you're not sucking Chinese dick you're not getting a good deal on an ASIC in the current market.) ASICs don't centralize or suck value... the people who use them do that. And frankly, when a new coin comes on the market... what do all those GPU miners do? They centralize in pools and mine quickly... then sell off their earnings. None of those actions can be seen as altruistic on the part of GPU miners. In addition to ZEN the same crisis is being faced by Ethereum and Decred who have recently succumb to ASICs, pushing out GPU miners. I think a solid argument can be made that individuals being able to participate in mining adds value to projects from levels ranging from a gamer mining with a single GPU to larger home miners with 250+ GPUs. So what's the difference between a hobby miner with one ASIC and a "pro" with 250+ ASICs... and your one GPU gamer and "large" home miner with 250+ GPUs? I think there is a contradiction between your stance that ASICs "centralize" coins when you accept that 250+ GPU "home miners" are ok. That many GPUs is a business, not a hobby. I'd like to invite everyone to perform a thought experiment and ask themselves if Bitcoin (the coin with the first mover advantage) would be any different had they chosen to fork off ASICs. The answer to what the ZEN team should do probably lies at the end of this discussion.
In what way did ASICs coming to bitcoin hurt the value or usability of the coin? |
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Hi @patrike, Have you ever considered adding support for an out of band rebooter for when a PC has hung and needs a power cycle? Like the product available from Simplemining or one of your own design.
Thanks for your consideration
Someone has already done this.... https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2866608  |
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