damn, didn't notice that this thread become a trolling ground for new accounts  Yes, I guess it's a sign of a good site in this forum  Anyway, few minor updates  - Self-bets on all-bets view now have a darker background.
- Sent chat will be shown on the chat box immediately after send button is clicked
- L and H hotkeys will only switch the setting, not rolling them
- New bet also slides down on Tor browser
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 SafeDice.comSafeDice is an advanced Bitcoin online betting site which offers: - Fast and Simple Bitcoin Dice Betting Site
- Super low 0.5% Variable House Edge
- Instant Cashout
- Two-Factor Authentication
- Secure SSL Access
- Provably Fair
- Real Time Off-Chain Betting
- Instant and Anonymous Registration
- Fast One Confirmation Deposit
Referral Program - Get up to 0.1% from total wager of all players that come through your referral
- Your earning is calculated in real-time and can be withdrawn anytime
Thank you Onews! |
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I had trouble with the 'target' payout multiplier not 'sticking' at 2x again today, but maybe I hadn't reloaded the site since you fixed it.
It's hard to test without betting near the maximum bet, so it may be a while before I get to see it working for real...
So it happened again. I set the payout to 2x, bet 0.01, had to double twice before I won, which took me over 0.5% house edge. Then when I hit 's' a few times to drop the stake back down, the payout didn't go back to 2: Hey Doog, sorry again for the inconvenience, turns out we left this intermittent one. We just made a few changes that should fix this |
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OK, got bit confused here regarding commission/referral payments.
Long story short - is it the same (or similar) system PRCdice have? You take commission on every bet (win or lose) and share a % of that commission with referrer?
As I understand it: * they take commission on every bet, of 10% of the house edge (and automatically invest it on their own account) * they pay affiliates 10% of (the house edge or 1%, whichever is smaller) (and automatically invest it in the affiliate's account) So for regular bets, with a house edge of 1% or less, they give 100% of the commission to the affiliate. OK, cool. Thanks for replying. Sounds like good deal for affiliates (maybe except for the fraction-of-satoshi-rounded-to-zero thing). Although, think it'd be better if op was getting his cut of the commission from every bet, creating more sustainable model etc. @SafeDice, it's a long shot, but do you have any promo banners by any chance? Ideally 468*60px or similar. No worries if not. The idea is to get more players, which indirectly will get us more commissions. It's quite experimental idea, but we're still optimistic about it. Sure, this is our simple 468*60px banner: http://s26.postimg.org/byuvv5ceh/sd_banner_468x60.jpg |
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My concern is that almost every bet is going to have a house edge of 1% or less, and most big players are going to make sure they have been referred by themselves or by a friend.
There aren't many thing we can do to fully prevent this. But basically we are against player who refer themselves, this is also the reason why we cap the referral fee to 0.1%. Hopefully a player who wager 1 BTC or more wouldn't mind to share 0.1% (0.001 BTC) for the site's growth. If my explanations are right, everything seems to be ok.. But please let me know if you don't think so  I think you cleared everything up, thanks. I wasn't thinking about the commission being split between all the investors. Maybe consider holding player balances to 1 or 2 extra decimal places. If I refer a play who makes a million bets of 1k satoshis each, the way things currently stand I get nothing at all for it. Each bet earns me 0.5 satoshis, which is rounded down to 0. If you added up all the half-satoshis, I'd end up with 500k satoshis, or 0.005 BTC. Nobody minds losing half a satoshi, but losing a million half satoshis is a different matter. Thanks for the comprehensive test Doog, good to know that everything works as expected. Let us think about saving the extra decimal places, because of some technical concerns. Otherwise we'll state the rounding mechanism in the site's explanation. |
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Thank you so much for the comprehensive test Doog! Let me try to answer: What I'm wondering is when is the commission charged? I haven't noticed it going out of my investment each time someone bets, but maybe it does.
I just played about with this to see how it works. I made notes about what happened, and bolded the 4 things that seemed weird or wrong: I referred myself, deposited 0.0099 on the new account ("Player-470"), and played a little. At first I divested fully on my main account so I could see the effect of just the referral payments. I noticed that bets of 1k satoshis earned me nothing. 0.5% of 1k is 5 satoshis, and 10% of that is 0.5 satoshis. I made 10 separate bets of 1k satoshis on the referred account and earned nothing at all for them on the main account. I guess payments are rounded, rather than having the sub-satoshi payments build up. Hmm, we thought it is simpler this way, hopefully people wouldn't mind with few satoshis being rounded down. If this can be an issue, we might add this to the explanation (ugh, this is our homework, to add more comprehensive information on our approach  ).
I made 4 bets of 2k satoshis and 3 bets of 4k satoshis. The main account earned a total of 10 satoshis for those bets, as expected. (4*2k + 3*4k = 20k; 0.5% of 20k is 100; 10% of 100 is 10). One thing that struck me as odd is that the affiliate payments were added to the main accounts 'invested' figure, not its balance. Even though the invested figure was zero and the balance wasn't. I would expect the affiliate payments to go into the balance, not the bankroll.
Yes, this is to ensure that the bankroll doesn't decrease every time someone place a bet... Is your expectation because it wasn't specified in detail? Or it is a necessity to put the fee in the balance? If the referrer believes in house edge, should he be more happier if the payment goes directly to the BR?
Then I invested on the main account. I worked out how much I needed to invest to become exactly 10% of the site's bankroll, and invested that amount, to make the calculations easier. I was invested 2.47165911 BTC and the site bankroll was 24.71659104 BTC. I was "10.00000002% of the total site investment".
The referred account bet 2k satoshis and lost; 0.5% of 2k is 10 satoshis; the commission and affiliate payment should both be 1 satoshi, and the 10% investor should get 200 satoshis.
On the main account I see my investment change twice:
2.47165911 -> 2.47166110 -> 2.47166111
The first change adds 199 satoshis, the 2nd adds 1 satoshi. It seems the commission was taken off first, and the affiliate payment was added later.
Then the referred account bet 10k satoshis and lost again; commission and affiliate payments should be 5 satoshis, and 10% investor should get 1k satoshis.
This time I only see my investment change once:
2.47166111 -> 2.47167116
It has added on 1005 satoshis. That's 10% of the new site profit, and the affiliate payment. It looks like no commission was charged. That's probably a bug?
Those 5 satoshis commission is not taken from your account only, but directly from the bankroll and shared to all the investors. So if your investment is 10% or Bankroll and the commission is 5 satoshis, you might not get the effect. Your investment is actually not saved in form of "how many satoshis," but a highly precision fractional shares to the bankroll, so there's also a chance that the calculation miss by a fractional satoshi.
The referred account made one final bet of 20k satoshis and won 20k satoshis. Commission and affiliate payment should be 10 satoshis, the investor should lost 2k satoshis.
My investment changes once again:
2.47167116 -> 2.47165125
I have lost 1991 satoshis. I'm not sure why - I should have lost 2000. Maybe since I'm a fraction over 10% of the bankroll, the loss cost me 2001 satoshis, then the affiliate payment of 10 was added, and the commission was forgotten again? That would make 1991 total.
I think this was what happened: you lost 2000 as investor, you got 10 as referrer, and you lost 1 because the commission was shared among all the investors, and you own 10% of it. If my explanations are right, everything seems to be ok.. But please let me know if you don't think so |
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The 'target' payout thing isn't working properly still.
I set it to 2x, then bet 0.01, hit 'w' to double on loss, and had to go up to 0.08 or 0.16 before I won. The payout multiplier changed a little from 2x as I did so, because the house edge was going up. Then when I hit 'e' a couple of times to get back to the initial 0.01 bet, the payout multiplier didn't go back to 2x.
It's like the 2x payout target is remembered for a while, but if I get too far from the 0.5% edge it gets lost.
Sorry Doog, we'll check on this and try to fix in the next update. |
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Many (good) posts and reports to reply! Thank you guys  Will the affiliate program affect current investors?
I don't see how it could. The site was apparently always taking 10% of the house edge as commission, only now they have decided to give some of it to their affiliates. What they do with their commission is up to them, and doesn't affect the investors, since the investors were going to be paying it anyway. What I'm wondering is when is the commission charged? I haven't noticed it going out of my investment each time someone bets, but maybe it does. Yes, it doesn't affect current investors. And yes, it is taken each time someone bets. We give all of the commission to the referrer up to 0.1% of wagered amount (it should be 0.1% instead of 0.01%).
So I'll update my guess: We take 10% of (house_edge) of every bet directly from the bankroll as commission.
If the bet was made by a player who was referred, we take 10% of min(1%, house_edge) of the bet amount out of our commission and give it to the person who referred him.
In other words, your commission that you charge investors is 10% of (house edge)% of the amount wagered, rather than 10% of actual profit, and the referral fees you pay are the same as the commission for bets with a house edge of 1% or less, and less than the commission for bets with a higher house edge - so if every player has been referred and nobody ever plays with a house edge over 1%, the referral fees are exactly the same as the commission. Is it right now? 100% correct! Some examples: house edge: 0.5% commission: 0.05% affiliate: 0.05% house edge: 1% commission: 0.1% affiliate: 0.1% house edge: 1.5% commission: 0.15% affiliate: 0.1% house edge: 2% commission: 0.2% affiliate: 0.1% house edge: 10% commission: 1% affiliate: 0.1% My concern is that almost every bet is going to have a house edge of 1% or less, and most big players are going to make sure they have been referred by themselves or by a friend. So how does the house cover expenses when it is giving all its commission away to affiliates? Edit: I notice profit and investment are both up this morning. Profit is positive for the first time in a while, and investment is over 25 BTC. Nice work. Actually we are thinking of similar concern in the beginning. But we finally think this might be a good idea, especially with limitation on 1% H.E. calculation (to minimize loss when people referring themselves). This model rely that some player / whale will try to play on > 1% H.E., and not all players use referral system. This model succeeds if: number of high wager that comes from referred players is higher than the commission it takes to cover the referral fee. We might adjust the percentage in the future if this isn't working, but hopefully we don't have to. Andd... Yes, the site is in profit... One of our loyal player made a few losing bets yesterday |
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This is my first thread. But this idea has stuck my mind and maybe my friends here can give me a better explaination about the some casino affiliate return.
Please have a look around in every online casino. Why the return is so high for their affiliate partner 25 to 70%? As i know the house edge for almost all casino games are below 5 percent.
For example:
There are 2 major affiliate. First affiliate had a 1 btc profit, the second affiliate maybe had a negative balance with 0.95 btc. (Total profit 0.05 btc)
If this scenario happen, then this casino will be loss because they just pay their first affiliate with 0.25-0.70 * 1 btc because overall their profit only 0.05 btc.
Although this scenario is quite small chance to happen. But this is a real risk for them.
How do you think?
The chance of your scenario to happen is not small, those casinos will loss most of the time if they really using those system. Usually there are some hidden information we missed, can you cashout those payment instantly? Are you sure those 25-70% commission is calculated from the affiliate's bet amount? |
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It's hard to follow you exactly. Can I take a guess at what you're saying, and you correct me? My guess: We take 10% of the house edge of every bet directly from the bankroll as commission. If the bet was made by a player who was referred, we give 20% of that 10% to the person who referred him.
In other words, your commission that you charge investors is 10% of (house edge)% of the amount wagered, rather than 10% of actual profit, and the referral fees you pay at 2% of (house edge)% of the amount wagered - so if every player has been referred, the referral fees are exactly one fifth of the commission. Is that right? If so, referral payments aren't "up to 0.01%" as you wrote, they are "from 0.01% to 0.2%". Imagine everyone bets at the maximum house edge of 10%. Your commission is 1%, and the referral fees are 20% of that, or 0.2% of the amount wagered. So maybe I got something wrong, or maybe you did. Ah, I just re-read my post again, and its my fault being unclear and have a typo in the site's explanation . Let me try to clarify: We take 10% of the house edge of every bet directly from the bankroll as commission. Exactly. This one is correct. If the bet was made by a player who was referred, we give 20% of that 10% to the person who referred him. No... So sorry, this is where I made the typo that confuse you We give all of the commission to the referrer up to 0.1% of wagered amount (it should be 0.1% instead of 0.01%). This means the referrer will get all the commission for bet with 1% H.E. and less. More than that, the commission will be shared with the site op. The copy feature works for me. The button just doesn't change colour when I hover over it. Most buttons do.
Got this fixed! Btw, if you noticed those button is made from Flash element |
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It's possible for a player to wager huge amounts and break even or even make a profit. In such cases I would expect the house to be unable to pay the referral fees. But in general the site expects payers to lose 0.5% of their wagered amount. They take 10% of that in commission (I guess - I don't know that I've seen that written anywhere), meaning they expect to get 0.05% of the wagered amount. And so they're giving 20% of their expected commission to the referring player.
That's my point. The system looks very risky and destructive (for the operator), unless he holds sufficient reserves. If the site is on loss (or breaks even, or makes a only a very small profit) for a longer period of time, the operator would have to cover ref payments from his own pocket (or his share of investment, which is even worse). Doog's explanation is correct except that we reduce / don't take every commission. When the players is referred, those 0.05% will goes to the referrer. This ensure that for every bet the commission will not be higher than 10% of the H.E. Our next step is to create a thorough explanation about this on the site (as well as Variable H.E. system). First we have to separate our role as investor and operator: - As an investor, the site takes 10% of H.E. as commission / ref payments. It is only 10% of the expected profit, so it should be ok.
- As an operator, we remove ourselves from variance, we focus on the wagering amount (which is good).
Those ref payments are taken from the role as an investor, directly from the bankroll. So, as an operator, we are very safe, we shouldn't worry about variance. In a way, the system is actually similar with taking fee from winning bets. Remember that when investing in a gambling business, our profit from one bet is used to cover the loss of another bet, we only wish that total profit is higher than total loss. I notice that the 'Copy' button next to my referrer link doesn't light up when I hover over it like all the other active buttons do.
Works fine for me (firefox). We will check on that again, this copy feature is quite tricky to be implemented in cross-browser environment. |
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hi there.. is there any chance that you will add affiliate program to your site? so we can promote yours in our site?
thanks!
Sure Clint, that is on our list, will contact you once we are done with it I can see in my account page there is a ref link for me. So is the ref system fully functional? Yess, it is fully functional. Just released few minutes ago |
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Good question! And of course it is better, lets take an example:
Flat rate H.E.
You play with 0.75% H.E. and max win of 0.375% of Bankroll (1/2 kelly), for every bet with potential profit less than 0.375% BR, you use flat 0.75% H.E. Higher than that, you are not allowed to bet.
Variable H.E.
When you play with potential profit 0.375% of the bankroll, you still use 0.75% H.E. Lower than that the site will use lower H.E. instead of flat 0.75%. Higher than that, the site still allows you to bet with higher H.E. (remember that in flat rate, you are not allowed to do so).
That makes sense. But I'm guessing there is some sort of max profit cap? If your BR is BTC23 am I allowed to place a bet with a potential profit of BTC23 (with HE at ~40.5%)? If so, that's very risky for you. Yes, currently we cap the max profit to 5% of BR. But the main reason is to prevent a player misplacing his bet with H.E. > 10%. Even if we remove the limitation, 40.5% HE can only risk 20.25% BR. |
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hi there.. is there any chance that you will add affiliate program to your site? so we can promote yours in our site?
thanks!
Sure Clint, that is on our list, will contact you once we are done with it Btw you have a nice site, good luck!
Hello pawel, on the bottom of the betting box, you can see the Variable H. E. information with (?) button in it. Basically you are right, Variable H.E. means that the House Edge can varies on each roll, it does increase proportionally to the potential profit. But it doesn't stretch from minimum to maximum profit. It depends on the potential profit compared to the bankroll size:
- If your profit on win is equal or below 0.25% of Bankroll, then you'll use 0.5% H.E.
- If your profit on win is equal or below 0.5% of Bankroll, then you'll use 1% H.E.
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- If your profit on win is 1% of Bankroll, then you'll use 2% H.E.
- and so on (it is 2 x potential profit / bankroll)
We see that people might not noticing those button and also need more example, we'll include more detail on the FAQ or even creating a special page on it. Thank you for the feedback.
Thanks for clarifying. Didn't notice the "(?)" button, putting more info in FAQ is a good idea, as most people will go there to look for the answers. That seems like a good system at first, but aren't you concerned that it might discourage players from placing big bets, since they're rewarded with lower HE when betting small? How is it better than a flat rate of HE, say 0.75%? Good question! And of course it is better, lets take an example: Flat rate H.E.You play with 0.75% H.E. and max win of 0.375% of Bankroll (1/2 kelly), for every bet with potential profit less than 0.375% BR, you use flat 0.75% H.E. Higher than that, you are not allowed to bet. Variable H.E.When you play with potential profit 0.375% of the bankroll, you still use 0.75% H.E. Lower than that the site will use lower H.E. instead of flat 0.75%. Higher than that, the site still allows you to bet with higher H.E. (remember that in flat rate, you are not allowed to do so). |
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How does the variable HE work? It's not explained in the FAQ.
Is it random, or does it increase proportionally to the potential profit? Do I get 0.5% HE on bet with minimum profit (1 satoshi) and 1% on max profit, or is there a fixed bet/profit amount after which I get the 1% HE?
Anyhow, the "0.5% House Edge" in the title and "0.5% Variable House Edge" may appear intentionally misleading, it would be fair if you change it to "0.5% - 1% HE".
I like the simple, minimalistic design tho.
Hello pawel, on the bottom of the betting box, you can see the Variable H. E. information with (?) button in it. Basically you are right, Variable H.E. means that the House Edge can varies on each roll, it does increase proportionally to the potential profit. But it doesn't stretch from minimum to maximum profit. It depends on the potential profit compared to the bankroll size: - If your profit on win is equal or below 0.25% of Bankroll, then you'll use 0.5% H.E. - If your profit on win is equal or below 0.5% of Bankroll, then you'll use 1% H.E. . . . - If your profit on win is 1% of Bankroll, then you'll use 2% H.E. - and so on (it is 2 x potential profit / bankroll) We see that people might not noticing those button and also need more example, we'll include more detail on the FAQ or even creating a special page on it. Thank you for the feedback. |
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I'm still seeing weird lag on balance updates.
I place a bet, see the result, then my balance updates sometimes twice *after* I see the bet result.
I wound expect the message that sends the bet result to also update my balance, and get it right. I don't really understand why it jumps around as much as it does - it's kind of confusing at times.
Ah, found what caused this.. It has been fixed now, thank you so much for reporting this again doog! It seems better now, but the problem still occurs for the site profit. I win a bet, and I see the site profit drop accordingly, then go back up, and a second later drop back to the correct value again. ie. it is changing three times sometimes when I bet once. Nobody else is playing. The long streak thing is kind of a continuum. The lower the chance people play at, the longer streaks they see. The screenshot shows a roll of 52, but he's playing >54 so it's a loss, where it would have been a win at 2x. Just modifying the site profit updating system. Previously we count a player's profit in addition to server's periodic update to "guess" the site's profit. But sometime, the bet result from API takes longer compared to socket update. Now we remove those guessing system and only use the socket update. tldr: Fixed! Auto rolling feature is also available now, check it out guys! |
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damn. had some bad luck  Ouch, 16 unlucky streak... Probably the longest in our record so far |
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I'm still seeing weird lag on balance updates.
I place a bet, see the result, then my balance updates sometimes twice *after* I see the bet result.
I wound expect the message that sends the bet result to also update my balance, and get it right. I don't really understand why it jumps around as much as it does - it's kind of confusing at times.
Ah, found what caused this.. It has been fixed now, thank you so much for reporting this again doog! |
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I'll try this site out, I might like it.
Thanks for sharing, OP!
Nice house edge, will try it for sure  Always made us smile to read comments like this Thank you guysss!!! Where is the chat ?
it is still there for me. what happened with your chat, maybe include a screenshot? so far refresh has usually worked for me with any GUI issue. Did you opened the site from tablet / smaller screen? The chat button is hidden if you opened it on tablet. |
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Very nice and clear interface and a little house edge percentage.
Thank you El! We also just push a little feature update on the site: emergency withdrawal address feature |
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