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1761  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? on: December 05, 2012, 07:06:51 PM
That's pretty much what a bitcoincard is supposed to do, but it doesn't have the memory for a full client.  An android app could do it using ad-hoc wireless or regular wifi and a piratebox as a hotspot.

To be honest, if there is an internet blackout I believe there are more pressing problems than spending coins. At least for me.

However, let's assume that you have a secure hardware device with built-in radio, that allows you to communicate securely (short distance, authenticated communication) with another device of the same kind, and that device does not allow you to export/import private keys. Then you could do multiple secure transactions from device to device for days or months before finally syncing up with the network.

This could be useful in areas without mobile coverage, such as most of rural US Grin

Rural Area United States
Quote
84 percent of the United States' inhabitants live in suburban and urban areas,[3] but cities occupy only 10 percent of the country. Rural areas occupy the remaining 90 percent.
1762  Other / Politics & Society / Re: How Libertarianism was created by big business lobbyists on: December 05, 2012, 07:04:25 PM
http://www.strike-the-root.com/grover-and-annie

With regard to government research.
1763  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? on: December 05, 2012, 06:02:44 AM
If you want to transmit whole blocks, you are looking at 1,000,000 bytes every 10 minutes.

Sounds like within reach of modem speeds but don't know if shortwave can handle that. Is compression useful or is it already compressed. If not already, it seems like it should crunch down quite a bit.

Compression is not likely to be worth it, and can violate ham rules against encryption.
1764  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? on: December 05, 2012, 06:00:34 AM
A commercially available digital radio with 'meshable' computer capablities, called D-STAR, makes anything that you've heard of so far look about as advanced as morse code.  A 50 mile, two hop, mesh connection while in a moving vehicle isn't even pushing the margins anymore.

Has there been much progress on an open ABME codec replacement?

Codec2 http://codec2.org/ is the open replacement for AMBE. Sounds (literally) quite promising.

Transmitting the Bitcoin headers on HF would be fun... It seems like the ARRL should be pushing hams to invest in a long-distance mesh packet radio network; even if it was slow, it would provide an incredibly useful service when required. Think of a new generation the radio 'nets' and Field Day setups for that can operate automatically, 24/7. Maybe it would get more people into amateur radio as well.  Roll Eyes

"Automaticly" isn't really what ARRL is into promoting.
1765  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? on: December 05, 2012, 05:59:04 AM
Isn't short-wave the radio that can transmit around the world? When my grandpa was visiting USSR from Ukraine, he brought a shortwave radio with him, and was able to listen to his news stations from back home.

All of this reminds me of those "mysterious" numbers stations that the CIA used to transmit info to spies. I wonder if the same thing can be set up with Bitcoin, transmitting the most recent mined block around the world every ten minutes?

Yes, but keep in mind that your talking about transmitters in the 10's of kilowatts using commercial quality gear and very tall, low angle biased tower antennas.  In order to travel farther than 300 miles, the signal must be able to bounce off the F level of the ionosphere repeatedly without losing too much signal to be picked up by common receiver gear.  IMHO, start with a NVIS setup in order to get a good single bounce.  Keep in mind, a 300 mile radius is a lot of area.  If I did that in my home city near Louisville, Kentucky; using commonly available ham gear and a max PEP of 1500 watts, my signal should be clear from Chicago to Atlanta.  The same setup in Frankfort, Germany should be able to cover from Paris to Prague and Amsterdam, Munich, Berlin, Hamburg and maybe Milan.  It's not necessarily more cost effective to set up a full power shortwave station intended to wrap the planet compared to several well placed NVIS transmitters using gear at ham power levels.
1766  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? on: December 04, 2012, 09:33:13 PM
That's very advanced stuff, not fast but the features and extra software are impressive. Was pricing the homebrew options, GMSK modems are very cheap but couldn't find a price on Kenwood TKR-820's or equivalent. Any idea what sort of power consumption?

Power consumption varies considerablely due to a number of variables, but about 300 watts is your top end limit, practically speaking.  Range with that kind of digital gear is more limited by line of sight issues than anything else at greater than 50 watts peak-envelope power, and is somewhere in the range of 10-15 miles radius with a high mounted mobile antenna of decent quality, or up to about 30 miles on a roof mounted stationary antenna.

Again, shortwave bands make those ranges look like crap, but are bandwidth limited, crowded and noisy.  A shortwave setup using a near-vertical incidental skywave antenna (NVIS) has a range radius of about 300 miles in all directions, and PSK-31 can do this with a peak-envelope power rating of under 10 watts.  Slow as hell, though; but it scales up bandwidth almost linerally, so 50 watts PEP is about right for PSK-250 to that same range for a clear enough signal to be picked up with common quality shortwave listening gear.
1767  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Does the US gov owns Bitcoin? on: December 04, 2012, 08:09:47 PM
1. Bitcoin use SHA.

2. The US gov owns SHA algorithm.
US Gov't property released to the public is always in the public domain. Incorporating something in the public domain does not transfer copyright.

Ok, so what's with US gov cryptography export regulations?

They consider strong encryption to be 'ammunition' under export law.  Rediculous, really, but it has zero effect upon bitcoin, because bitcoin doesn't actually encrypt transactions or any other broadcast data object.  The network is, generally, broadcast in the clear.  Secure hashing algos are not encryption algos.
1768  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? on: December 04, 2012, 07:59:51 PM
That sounds like a really nice setup all ready to go. Maybe a stupid question but are police surplus units available?

Well, yes.  To licensed hams.  But the D-STAR off-the-shelf transcievers are usually cheaper anyway.
1769  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? on: December 04, 2012, 07:41:08 PM
Reading up on this atm, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packet_radio

Sounds like a stream of the data as it comes onto the chain would be fairly easy to set up and the more there are the more it could be trusted, would be a weak link though.

Packet radio is a crude form of wide area, time-division type mesh network.  Might be useful for relatively small areas, such as a medium sized city, but if the POTS system still works, regular phone modems would be better.  Hams don't really use packet much anymore.  Better systems are phase-shift keyed modes, such as PSK-31 and up.  PSK-125/250/500 are more robust, and generally has better range and practical throughput, than a 300 baud shortwave packet modem.  There are many other types of (software defined) soundcard modes to choose from, PSK was just the first in widespread use, and one of the simpliest to impliment.  Packet radio requires specially modifed modems, and specialized hardware is expensive.  Sound cards are not expensive anymore.  Hell, I can do PSK-31/63/125 audio conversions on my android cell phone.

Modern hams willing to invest that kind of money into specialized mode gear just tend to skip the packet modem and go for a full blown digital transciever with built-in software defined capabilities.  Much better capabilities and costs about the same.

EDIT:  Really, some of this gear is truely impressive.  If you've ever seen some of the modern digital transcievers that cops use in their cars these days, hams have had that kind of gear for over a decade now.  A commercially available digital radio with 'meshable' computer capablities, called D-STAR, makes anything that you've heard of so far look about as advanced as morse code.  A 50 mile, two hop, mesh connection while in a moving vehicle isn't even pushing the margins anymore.
1770  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? on: December 04, 2012, 07:12:19 PM
Maybe the bittorrent download implementation could handle that kind of thing?


A torrent of the blockchain would do well, to a point.  The torrent file would have to be updated on a regular basis though.  Perhaps the magnet file is what you would broadcast occasionally on your transmitter.

Quote

 The SW radio (I'm guessing that's the same as CB)


Not even close.

Quote

 soundcard modem setups, would they be able to work over a wide band in stacked frequency ranges to allow either wider bandwidth or multiple connections depending on what signals are found?

Not multiple connections.  There really wouldn't be 'connections' per se.  There is the transmitting station and the listening stations, data flows one way, in a one-to-many format.  A computer using much wider bandwidth sound cards (64, 128 bit) can listen to a muc wider band of the radio specturm at once, and could receive data from two ajacent stations, but it can't tune to tow distinctly different channels at the same time; that would require two sondcards at least, likley two different shortwave recievers as well, unless you've got the skills to bypass the tuner an access the internal frequency of the reciever.  The bandwidth of the signal is limited by the transmitter gear, power requirements, and clear frequency bandwidth on a shortwave band.  Shortwave is a worldwide set of bands that most americans have no experience with, and they are crowded.
1771  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? on: December 04, 2012, 06:57:23 PM
It could be worth reading up on borders and communication's, the introduction of radio must have given rise to methods of blocking it and I'd guess cables crossing borders have a lot or restrictions. Someone must have condensed all that into a paper without to many big words and there's a thread about that somewhere...

Doubt there's anything to prevent bouncing signals off the moon though.

Prevent it, no.  Interfere with it, yes.  The problem with a moonbounce is that it requires not just some high quality transmitters with highly directional dish antennas with accurate moon tracking gear, but due to the distance & scatter issues with a moonbounce, the receiving gear has to be pretty high end as well.  So it takes a relatively low power jammer to screw with that, or a high quality one also pointed at and tracking the moon.  If you turned up your transmission power high enough to overcome a moonbounced jammer signal, they would be able to identify your transmitter from orbital sats due to the signal leakage of your dish.

Normal shortwave is much simpler, and much more effective, IMHO.  The receiving gear is much cheaper, more widespread (outside of the United States) and the decoding gear is just a regular computer with a 16 bit soundcard.  Sure, it'd be difficult to transmit the full blockchain, or maybe even full blocks once they start really filling up, but both block headers and loose transaction data could be transmitted continuously up to a certain point.  The real beauty of the p2p network system is that not all the data must come from the same source.  If your broadcast only transmitted the last block header and the myrkle tree, smarter clients than are currently available could piece together full blocks by collecting the loose transaction data from other sources, and there will be other sources, evenif it's only the occasionally smuggled blockchain on a usb drive two days out of date.
1772  Other / Politics & Society / Re: How Libertarianism was created by big business lobbyists on: December 04, 2012, 06:45:13 PM
NAP isn't a law. It's a guiding principle to draw inspiration from while designing an AnCap society. It actually has zero effect with regard to what happens in a NAP inspired AnCap society though. In the end, the people within an AnCap society will still murder, rape, rob, deceive, and fight others over lovers, property, race, and ideas. In arbitration, someone will lose, perhaps unjustly. People will be inundated with contracts, subscriptions, tolls, fees, and bills. Lawyers will abound. Lawsuits will be the order of the day. Money will reign supreme.

Probably so.  We assume anyway.  We have no more evidence that ancap can't work than they have that it can.  What you argue for is the status quo; because you have no evidence that things could be better, you'd rather stick with the devil that you know.  I can understand that position, actually; because I'm of the same vein.  I'm as vested in this broken system as much as anyone, and would have much to lose if the US government were to collapse within the next decade.  And that is something that I need to change rather quickly because it will collapse, in some catastrophic manner or another.  I'm wise enough to have long understood that Social Security is a generational scam, and old enough to hope that I might make it so that I might be able to get some of my money back.  But now there are talks to avoid (not going to happen) this "fiscal cliff" that involve raising the standard eligibility age to 67.  Even if that doesn't happen now, it has to happen before I turn 65 if there is going to be any chance at all at there still being a meaningful amount of spending power in that monthly check.  If these government social services are not reformed soon, the Millinials will take over the electorate (probably before the next presidential election, maybe before the mid-terms, but soon) from the Boomers, and they are as likely to destroy those programs as reform them.  Many of the ancap people that you are arguing with are those very Millinials, who have little, if any, vested interests of their own into the status quo.

And yes, I am fully aware that SS is screwing the younger generations, but I'm also aware that I got screwed too.  Two wrongs dom't make a right, and I'd not cry in my soup if the SS system were to implode efore I made it, but I am not shy about taking the spoils that I can get if the system is still there whtn I arrive.
1773  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? on: December 04, 2012, 06:30:10 PM
The first casualty of war is the truth, therefore any source that can offer truth must be removed.

No doubt some will try.  I question their practical effectiveness.
1774  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: I lost my job, because of bitcoins! on: December 04, 2012, 04:02:01 PM


What I don't understand is why you did this without talking to the owner first though.

Yeah, that's the part that seems fishy.  There is more likely more to this story than he's sharing, IMHO.
1775  Other / Politics & Society / Re: How Libertarianism was created by big business lobbyists on: December 04, 2012, 03:58:03 PM
To everyone: please do not feed blahtrollblahtrollblahtroll. He does not want to have a rational conversation -- all he desires is provoking others by misrepresenting ideas and lying in general. He wants to waste your time and tire IOU out, so he can derive psychic pleasure from you. Don't give him that pleasure. thanks.
...Once bbb takes the time to try finding historical evidence for claims of the superiority of the state beyond vast generalizations like "if ancap's so great why don't we already do it..."...

Here is my opinion: the state apparatus is a tool that can be used for good or evil. This much is clear from even a cursory understanding of history. Also, the arguments for gun control can be applied pretty much directly as arguments for "state control".

It's easy to point out flaws in various past and present governments/States/regimes/empires/etc. because there have been so many of these organisations. However, historical examples of AnCap seem so rare and involve relatively few people that there's really no historic precedent to support AnCap's alleged superiority. So you're basically comparing an idealised, untested thought-experiment against real-world structures with all their real-world flaws. Isn't that a double standard?

There are many examples of social movements that had no precedent.  The end of slavery was one such movement.  No one could say who would pick the cotton, but the cotton still gets picked.  We don't need an example of such an existing society (although we actually do have a couple of examples that were pretty close) in order to point out the flaws in the current system.  I'm not an ancap either, in part because I am concerned about it's weaknesses & stability, but using the fact that no such societies exist is not an argument that they cannot.
1776  Other / Politics & Society / Re: How Libertarianism was created by big business lobbyists on: December 04, 2012, 03:51:14 PM
It's like the One Ring: no matter your intentions, it is a thing of evil, and you'll most likely end up doing more harm than good. Monopolies are never beneficial to those they serve. Remove the monopoly. It's not rocket science.

There's only one law: No person has the right to initiate the use of force, threat of force, or fraud upon another person or their property.

One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them

I'd like you to explain how the non aggression principle could lead to a monopoly on force, because I can't see it.

Really, no matter how you look at it, the NAP is expressed as a social more in every major religion on Earth.  In judeo-christian history, it's the golden rule.  In the book Whatever Happened to Justice? Rich Maybury did a wonderful job showing that it's not possible to find a moral code that does not have a similar principle expressed for members of the tribe, it's in the exceptions that these moral codes differ.  The NAP has no exceptions, not for those who would portend to serve God, nor those who serve government.
1777  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How do we deal with an internet blackout? on: December 04, 2012, 07:07:07 AM
The Internet was invented precisely because it can not be blacked out. Though if you are talking about blacking out access to the Internet, then I guess that's a possibility. In that case, electronic bitcoin transaction will be impossible, though physical bitcoins can still be used as cash.

Nonsense!!!!!

War, is one example.



An example of what?
1778  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: BitcoinCard - Are you buying one? on: December 04, 2012, 02:26:53 AM
This is an awesome idea! Although to me it seems like the card would become unnecessary because everyone is already carrying around cell phones and would only be a matter of time before phones would incorporate this technology.

Well, that is already happened, and I have such an android phone capable of doing exactly that.  However, I still want a bitcoin card.  Maybe several.  Give one to each of my kids, and buy a base station for my house, and I could track them within a couple of blocks.  The ability to use it as a bitcoin client as well might be entirely secondary.

Cool, which app do you use? I haven't investigated them too much.

BitcoinSpinner
1779  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: BitcoinCard - Are you buying one? on: December 04, 2012, 12:28:04 AM
This is an awesome idea! Although to me it seems like the card would become unnecessary because everyone is already carrying around cell phones and would only be a matter of time before phones would incorporate this technology.

Well, that is already happened, and I have such an android phone capable of doing exactly that.  However, I still want a bitcoin card.  Maybe several.  Give one to each of my kids, and buy a base station for my house, and I could track them within a couple of blocks.  The ability to use it as a bitcoin client as well might be entirely secondary.
1780  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: BitcoinCard - Are you buying one? on: December 04, 2012, 12:25:35 AM
Seems to be a promising device/technology but being tracked for your actions/patterns/habits is a sure deal-breaker. A typical smart-phone can be more than enough. I don't see any significant reason for this idea to re-invent the wheel.

You are already track with your cell phone BTW

Not only that, your cell phone can track you globally, and report that data to anyone over your data service.  The bitcoin card can only track you relative to it's base stations within a store, and can only report those movements to those base stations until it's beyond the reach of that store.  This makes tracking a particular individual rather difficult, unless your goal is to actually tail a particular person who has a bitcoin card number that 1) you know and 2) you have a mobile base station to track them with.  The bitcoincard doesn't have the capacity to track using GPS, nor the ability to transmit that data beyond a couple of blocks.  The street cameras in London can track your movements better than a bitcoin card could.
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