[BF and BTCT] Gamma SatoshiDICE Pass Through

[btharper]

With Gigamining having received their list of holders, have you received anything?

Lists are being sent out 1-4 a week I believe starting with the largest (I believe by total volume traded) and going down the list; gigamining was the largest security on the exchange, some people believe that lawyers also helped their case. Because this security was only started a short while before closing it's further down the list than it should be otherwise. Nefario has said he's doing it now and seems to be slowly getting around to it.

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[burnside]

DeaDTerra, what is going to happen to this now that GLBSE has shut down?

It depends on how the transition goes.
If we have a good replacement of GLBSE, then we can move their.
Otherwise I could setup some kind of manual payout system,
or I could offer to sell the shares on MPEX and payout the amount I got from selling them.
I plan to honor my contract, but exactly how is to early to answer.
//DeaDTerra

I was just poking around, considering trying to get someone to offer a passthru on BTC-TC when I stumbled into your GLBSE issue here.

I'd love to see this on BTC-TC (http://btct.co/) ... Let me know if you're interested or not.  If not I'll see if I can push someone else into doing it. 

[DeaDTerra]

DeaDTerra, what is going to happen to this now that GLBSE has shut down?

It depends on how the transition goes.
If we have a good replacement of GLBSE, then we can move their.
Otherwise I could setup some kind of manual payout system,
or I could offer to sell the shares on MPEX and payout the amount I got from selling them.
I plan to honor my contract, but exactly how is to early to answer.
//DeaDTerra

I was just poking around, considering trying to get someone to offer a passthru on BTC-TC when I stumbled into your GLBSE issue here.

I'd love to see this on BTC-TC (http://btct.co/) ... Let me know if you're interested or not.  If not I'll see if I can push someone else into doing it. 

I am thinking of either shutting the pass through down or doing it manually,
Tbh after all this Bullshit I am quite tired of exchanges and middle men.
//DeaDTerra

[Bitcoin Oz]

DeaDTerra, what is going to happen to this now that GLBSE has shut down?

It depends on how the transition goes.
If we have a good replacement of GLBSE, then we can move their.
Otherwise I could setup some kind of manual payout system,
or I could offer to sell the shares on MPEX and payout the amount I got from selling them.
I plan to honor my contract, but exactly how is to early to answer.
//DeaDTerra

I was just poking around, considering trying to get someone to offer a passthru on BTC-TC when I stumbled into your GLBSE issue here.

I'd love to see this on BTC-TC (http://btct.co/) ... Let me know if you're interested or not.  If not I'll see if I can push someone else into doing it. 

I bet you could do that with other assets listed elsewhere provided its ok with the asset issuer of course.

[DeaDTerra]

DeaDTerra, what is going to happen to this now that GLBSE has shut down?

It depends on how the transition goes.
If we have a good replacement of GLBSE, then we can move their.
Otherwise I could setup some kind of manual payout system,
or I could offer to sell the shares on MPEX and payout the amount I got from selling them.
I plan to honor my contract, but exactly how is to early to answer.
//DeaDTerra

I was just poking around, considering trying to get someone to offer a passthru on BTC-TC when I stumbled into your GLBSE issue here.

I'd love to see this on BTC-TC (http://btct.co/) ... Let me know if you're interested or not.  If not I'll see if I can push someone else into doing it. 

I could offer setting up a pass through,
But I would not stand as the issuer, I am tired of taking the shit when other people fuck up.
I can offer my service but I won't be standing in the line of fire if something outside of my control goes wrong.
//DeaDTerra


I bet you could do that with other assets listed elsewhere provided its ok with the asset issuer of course.

[bitcoinbear]

DeaDTerra, what is going to happen to this now that GLBSE has shut down?

It depends on how the transition goes.
If we have a good replacement of GLBSE, then we can move their.
Otherwise I could setup some kind of manual payout system,
or I could offer to sell the shares on MPEX and payout the amount I got from selling them.
I plan to honor my contract, but exactly how is to early to answer.
//DeaDTerra

I was just poking around, considering trying to get someone to offer a passthru on BTC-TC when I stumbled into your GLBSE issue here.

I'd love to see this on BTC-TC (http://btct.co/) ... Let me know if you're interested or not.  If not I'll see if I can push someone else into doing it. 

I am thinking of either shutting the pass through down or doing it manually,
Tbh after all this Bullshit I am quite tired of exchanges and middle men.
//DeaDTerra

So you would be basically acting as a broker for people to buy shares on MPEX?

How do things work to claim the shares once you get the list from GLBSE?

[theGECK]

I have no idea how many shares I had so I have no idea if it would be worth the 20 BTC to setup a MPex account. Shame that it might go down the toilet. Do you think you'll still be honoring the 1:1 trade GLBSE shares to MPex if you get the GLBSE list?

DeaDTerra, thanks for the service you provided with this. It was good while it lasted.

[DeaDTerra]

DeaDTerra, what is going to happen to this now that GLBSE has shut down?

It depends on how the transition goes.
If we have a good replacement of GLBSE, then we can move their.
Otherwise I could setup some kind of manual payout system,
or I could offer to sell the shares on MPEX and payout the amount I got from selling them.
I plan to honor my contract, but exactly how is to early to answer.
//DeaDTerra

I was just poking around, considering trying to get someone to offer a passthru on BTC-TC when I stumbled into your GLBSE issue here.

I'd love to see this on BTC-TC (http://btct.co/) ... Let me know if you're interested or not.  If not I'll see if I can push someone else into doing it. 

I am thinking of either shutting the pass through down or doing it manually,
Tbh after all this Bullshit I am quite tired of exchanges and middle men.
//DeaDTerra

So you would be basically acting as a broker for people to buy shares on MPEX?

How do things work to claim the shares once you get the list from GLBSE?

Yes Indeed,
I work as a broker for the people who want to buy S.DICE shares on MPEX.
For this service I take 5% of the dividend.

The share holder will get the choice of
A, transfer the bonds to his/her MPEX account.
B, Sell off the bonds to the open market and I send him/her whatever the bonds selling yielded.
C, Keep using me as a broker and I keep sending the dividends each month.
//DeaDTerra

[rini17]

DeaDTerra, what is going to happen to this now that GLBSE has shut down?

It depends on how the transition goes.
If we have a good replacement of GLBSE, then we can move their.
Otherwise I could setup some kind of manual payout system,
or I could offer to sell the shares on MPEX and payout the amount I got from selling them.
I plan to honor my contract, but exactly how is to early to answer.
//DeaDTerra

I was just poking around, considering trying to get someone to offer a passthru on BTC-TC when I stumbled into your GLBSE issue here.

I'd love to see this on BTC-TC (http://btct.co/) ... Let me know if you're interested or not.  If not I'll see if I can push someone else into doing it. 

I am thinking of either shutting the pass through down or doing it manually,
Tbh after all this Bullshit I am quite tired of exchanges and middle men.
//DeaDTerra

So you would be basically acting as a broker for people to buy shares on MPEX?

How do things work to claim the shares once you get the list from GLBSE?

Yes Indeed,
I work as a broker for the people who want to buy S.DICE shares on MPEX.
For this service I take 5% of the dividend.

The share holder will get the choice of
A, transfer the bonds to his/her MPEX account.
B, Sell off the bonds to the open market and I send him/her whatever the bonds selling yielded.
C, Keep using me as a broker and I keep sending the dividends each month.
//DeaDTerra

So you don't plan to offer transferring to CoinBr.com account?

[Carnth]

So you don't plan to offer transferring to CoinBr.com account?

Once Nefario has released all the shareholder info,
I would rather the pass through be moved to burnside's https://btct.co
OR liquidate the assets.

Of course, I'm speaking as someone who does not have an MPEX account (or else why would I use a pass through?).

[rini17]

So you don't plan to offer transferring to CoinBr.com account?

Once Nefario has released all the shareholder info,
I would rather the pass through be moved to burnside's https://btct.co
OR liquidate the assets.

Of course, I'm speaking as someone who does not have an MPEX account (or else why would I use a pass through?).

CoinBr would enable you to liquidate at time/price you want by placing appropriate order. You don't need MPEx account at all to use it.  It practically makes all MPEx passthroughs obsolete. While there are some small fees, I'm open to negotiate special conditions if passthrough operators are interested to make the liquidation painless to users.

[burnside]

So you don't plan to offer transferring to CoinBr.com account?

Once Nefario has released all the shareholder info,
I would rather the pass through be moved to burnside's https://btct.co
OR liquidate the assets.

Of course, I'm speaking as someone who does not have an MPEX account (or else why would I use a pass through?).

CoinBr would enable you to liquidate at time/price you want by placing appropriate order. You don't need MPEx account at all to use it.  It practically makes all MPEx passthroughs obsolete. While there are some small fees, I'm open to negotiate special conditions if passthrough operators are interested to make the liquidation painless to users.

Comparing transaction fees at CoinBr to BTC-TC, CoinBr is 2.5x higher on trades, 10x higher on withdrawals, more than 10x higher on asset transfers, and has a monthly maintenance fee of 0.09 BTC.  I'm sure a chunk of that is to cover underlying MPEx transaction costs.

Still, CoinBr looks like it could be pretty handy.  Big question I'd have is... what happens to the stocks held in CoinBr if CoinBr goes offline?

[Bitcoin Oz]

MPEX and coinbr are ok I suppose for toy companies that arent actually registered anywhere.

[MPOE-PR]

MPEX and coinbr are ok I suppose for toy companies that arent actually registered anywhere.

You'll have to get used to the simple idea that being on MPEx > being on NYSE. They say the earlier you do it the less it burns.

[rini17]

Comparing transaction fees at CoinBr to BTC-TC, CoinBr is 2.5x higher on trades, 10x higher on withdrawals, more than 10x higher on asset transfers, and has a monthly maintenance fee of 0.09 BTC.  I'm sure a chunk of that is to cover underlying MPEx transaction costs.

Still, CoinBr looks like it could be pretty handy.  Big question I'd have is... what happens to the stocks held in CoinBr if CoinBr goes offline?

The "underlying MPEx transaction costs" are negligible. All the fees are actually used to fund the ongoing development and ensure sustainability of whole thing. CoinBr is not a charity, neither is based on delusions of having > 100k monthly btc trade volume in foreseeable future, like some site you mention. I really doubt you will get better overall profit from any meaningful volume (like, 10BTC or more) by trading passthroughs than when doing it directly on MPEx via CoinBr - considering not just fees but also buy price, sell price and dividends.

What happens if CoinBr goes offline and how it deals with 3rd party risk, is detailed here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=118551.msg1275646#msg1275646 . Do you actually have similar level of assurance from your passthrough operator?

[burnside]

Comparing transaction fees at CoinBr to BTC-TC, CoinBr is 2.5x higher on trades, 10x higher on withdrawals, more than 10x higher on asset transfers, and has a monthly maintenance fee of 0.09 BTC.  I'm sure a chunk of that is to cover underlying MPEx transaction costs.

Still, CoinBr looks like it could be pretty handy.  Big question I'd have is... what happens to the stocks held in CoinBr if CoinBr goes offline?

The "underlying MPEx transaction costs" are negligible. All the fees are actually used to fund the ongoing development and ensure sustainability of whole thing. CoinBr is not a charity, neither is based on delusions of having > 100k monthly btc trade volume in foreseeable future, like some site you mention. I really doubt you will get better overall profit from any meaningful volume (like, 10BTC or more) by trading passthroughs than when doing it directly on MPEx via CoinBr - considering not just fees but also buy price, sell price and dividends.

I think I get your meaning.  You're right, the 'other exchange' isn't going to make it's founders rich anytime soon.  

Regarding whether you get a better deal (part of which is risk/reward) or not by the time you consider buy price and dividends, I would argue that it entirely depends on how many shares you hold.  Part of that would be calculating the risk of dealing with the various passthrough operators.  Roughly:

A ton of shares: MPEx is the best deal, and the least risky.  (1 middle man between you and the operator.)
Somewhere between a couple shares and a ton of shares: You have to do some math comparing your passthrough options.

Example: on CoinBr you'd have to hold more than 2800 shares of SatoshiDice to make anything on the dividend, assuming a 0.0032 buy price, a 0.09 BTC account fee, and ~1%/mo dividend.  With Gamma if you have 2800 shares, you only give up 5% (5% being the Gamma passthru operators fee) of the dividend, not 100%.  Obviously if the dividend is higher, the number of shares to break-even is lower.  Also, at 1% dividend you have to get over 50,000 shares before the 0.09 BTC/mo account fee is less than 5% of your dividend income.

What happens if CoinBr goes offline and how it deals with 3rd party risk, is detailed here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=118551.msg1275646#msg1275646 . Do you actually have similar level of assurance from your passthrough operator?

Quoting the relevant portions here to save everyone the painful extraction:

Will I have my MPEx assets in a usable format if your brokerage closes? How about any BTC in my account?

We will either pay out to BTC address you provided on registration or move all assets to another broker.  If the closing will be catastrophical and CoinBr will be completely defunct (unlikely, there are continuously updated database backups on multiple physical locations), you will still have MPEx receipts that allow for reconstruction of your account. Sending them also by email is under development.

Nothing against CoinBr, but is CoinBr not just a passthrough operator itself?  You're not a registered broker, you have not sworn to operate under the same rules and guidelines a registered broker operates under.  That makes you a passthrough same as anyone else, does it not?

Will MPEx accept these receipts as proof of ownership?  How does MPEx deal with a situation where you buy, receive receipt, wait 6 months, sell, wait 6 months, make claim with receipt?  I'm sure they can track it somehow, but can you imagine the process of digging through thousands of these things with possibly thousands of sales of the same shares over time?  I'd be interested to get some input from MPEx on this one.

Do you accept unlimited liability for clients account holdings?

We assume no liability beyond one implied by law.

So the CoinBr broker (passthru operator) accepts zero liability unless you track him down and figure out the legal structure where he lives.

Cheers.

[rini17]

Comparing transaction fees at CoinBr to BTC-TC, CoinBr is 2.5x higher on trades, 10x higher on withdrawals, more than 10x higher on asset transfers, and has a monthly maintenance fee of 0.09 BTC.  I'm sure a chunk of that is to cover underlying MPEx transaction costs.

Still, CoinBr looks like it could be pretty handy.  Big question I'd have is... what happens to the stocks held in CoinBr if CoinBr goes offline?

The "underlying MPEx transaction costs" are negligible. All the fees are actually used to fund the ongoing development and ensure sustainability of whole thing. CoinBr is not a charity, neither is based on delusions of having > 100k monthly btc trade volume in foreseeable future, like some site you mention. I really doubt you will get better overall profit from any meaningful volume (like, 10BTC or more) by trading passthroughs than when doing it directly on MPEx via CoinBr - considering not just fees but also buy price, sell price and dividends.

I think I get your meaning.  You're right, the 'other exchange' isn't going to make it's founders rich anytime soon.  

Regarding whether you get a better deal (part of which is risk/reward) or not by the time you consider buy price and dividends, I would argue that it entirely depends on how many shares you hold.  Part of that would be calculating the risk of dealing with the various passthrough operators.  Roughly:

A ton of shares: MPEx is the best deal, and the least risky.  (1 middle man between you and the operator.)
Somewhere between a couple shares and a ton of shares: You have to do some math comparing your passthrough options.

Example: on CoinBr you'd have to hold more than 2800 shares of SatoshiDice to make anything on the dividend, assuming a 0.0032 buy price, a 0.09 BTC account fee, and ~1%/mo dividend.  With Gamma if you have 2800 shares, you only give up 5% (5% being the Gamma passthru operators fee) of the dividend, not 100%.  Obviously if the dividend is higher, the number of shares to break-even is lower.  Also, at 1% dividend you have to get over 50,000 shares before the 0.09 BTC/mo account fee is less than 5% of your dividend income.

We'll gladly leave < 1BTC customers to other brokers/passthroughs. And you neglected the "price" argument - as S.MPOE/S.DICE prices quite much fluctuate, with CoinBr you can buy/sell often and instantly to easily recover that 5%. With passthrough you have to wait when/if someone does the arbitration. With "offline" broker you have to contact him first.

Nothing against CoinBr, but is CoinBr not just a passthrough operator itself?  You're not a registered broker, you have not sworn to operate under the same rules and guidelines a registered broker operates under.  That makes you a passthrough same as anyone else, does it not?

Whatever. I'm not the first nor only one to use some terms borrowed from other and more heavily regulated markets.

Will MPEx accept these receipts as proof of ownership?  How does MPEx deal with a situation where you buy, receive receipt, wait 6 months, sell, wait 6 months, make claim with receipt?  I'm sure they can track it somehow, but can you imagine the process of digging through thousands of these things with possibly thousands of sales of the same shares over time?  I'd be interested to get some input from MPEx on this one.

Provided that CoinBr MPEx account is intact, users will be still in much better situation than in case of GLBSE.  We are planning to improve upon this by emailing GPG-signed daily statements. It will be in everyone's best interest (including MPEx itself) to resolve the situation and they will have the tools to do so - I can't lay out plans how exactly, this is a hypothetical situation.

Do you accept unlimited liability for clients account holdings?

We assume no liability beyond one implied by law.

So the CoinBr broker (passthru operator) accepts zero liability unless you track him down and figure out the legal structure where he lives.

Cheers.

Do you have some feasible proposal how to improve this?

[burnside]

I think I get your meaning.  You're right, the 'other exchange' isn't going to make it's founders rich anytime soon.  

Regarding whether you get a better deal (part of which is risk/reward) or not by the time you consider buy price and dividends, I would argue that it entirely depends on how many shares you hold.  Part of that would be calculating the risk of dealing with the various passthrough operators.  Roughly:

A ton of shares: MPEx is the best deal, and the least risky.  (1 middle man between you and the operator.)
Somewhere between a couple shares and a ton of shares: You have to do some math comparing your passthrough options.

Example: on CoinBr you'd have to hold more than 2800 shares of SatoshiDice to make anything on the dividend, assuming a 0.0032 buy price, a 0.09 BTC account fee, and ~1%/mo dividend.  With Gamma if you have 2800 shares, you only give up 5% (5% being the Gamma passthru operators fee) of the dividend, not 100%.  Obviously if the dividend is higher, the number of shares to break-even is lower.  Also, at 1% dividend you have to get over 50,000 shares before the 0.09 BTC/mo account fee is less than 5% of your dividend income.

We'll gladly leave < 1BTC customers to other brokers/passthroughs. And you neglected the "price" argument - as S.MPOE/S.DICE prices quite much fluctuate, with CoinBr you can buy/sell often and instantly to easily recover that 5%. With passthrough you have to wait when/if someone does the arbitration. With "offline" broker you have to contact him first.

I was arguing that up until 50,000 shares you get a better deal elsewhere.  That's roughly where the 0.09 BTC account fee drops below 5% of the collected dividends at a 1% dividend.

2800 shares ~= 9 BTC
50,000 shares ~= 160 BTC

You're right though, the liquidity of the passthrough could be an issue if you're not buying to hold it long term.

Nothing against CoinBr, but is CoinBr not just a passthrough operator itself?  You're not a registered broker, you have not sworn to operate under the same rules and guidelines a registered broker operates under.  That makes you a passthrough same as anyone else, does it not?

Whatever. I'm not the first nor only one to use some terms borrowed from other and more heavily regulated markets.

I think what I was getting at is that saying you're a broker is misleading to anyone who knows what one really is.  Kind of like saying you're a doctor when you don't have the doctorate, or saying you're a lawyer when you haven't passed the bar.  You're getting into borderline scammer tag territory.

Do you accept unlimited liability for clients account holdings?

We assume no liability beyond one implied by law.

So the CoinBr broker (passthru operator) accepts zero liability unless you track him down and figure out the legal structure where he lives.

Cheers.

Do you have some feasible proposal how to improve this?

Good risk management, and maybe get an insurance policy.  I think probably this starts with a formal agreement with MPEx laying out what happens if your brokerage is compromised.

There's the potential for your 'brokerage' to hold thousands and thousands of dollars of people's securities.  If you feel like I'm being pointed, or being harsh, it's because I want you to succeed long term in a way that does not end badly.  MPEx (and CoinBr?) does not have a ToS or wording in their legalese saying that their assets are not real.  This exposes you legally in ways you can't even imagine.

Cheers.

[DeaDTerra]

Can you guys take this fight somewhere else?
Create you own thread please
//DeaDTerra

[burnside]

Can you guys take this fight somewhere else?
Create you own thread please
//DeaDTerra

Sorry 'bout that.