sidhujag
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Activity: 2044
Merit: 1005
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July 10, 2015, 01:42:37 PM |
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people, that is why nxt is below bts in marketcap because of shills like ^^.. Btw you have something green on your nose there.
I like that you think that I think Bitshares is bad, I don't think I can recall mentioning Nxt. Wasn't for you |
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In order to get the maximum amount of activity points possible, you just need to post once per day on average. Skipping days is OK as long as you maintain the average.
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StanLarimer (OP)
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July 10, 2015, 02:01:12 PM |
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One thing is sure, Dan Larimer is a super talented and it seems to me very honest young man and his innovation surely deserves the support of the community.
On this, we agree. I'm a bit leery of Bitshares' model, as fully-backed is my own policy, but Dan is very talented and has a real vision. It remains to be seen if a derivative-type model is a robust proxy for fully-backed, but that's why this whole field is labeled "experimental." Can't have experimental without experiments.  (To be honest, if I could wangle an hour of Dan's time for a one-on-one convo, it would be a very fascinating hour...) Maybe we could get the two of you on Fuzzy's BeyondBitcoin.org Show... |
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StanLarimer (OP)
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July 10, 2015, 02:23:36 PM |
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One thing is sure, Dan Larimer is a super talented and it seems to me very honest young man and his innovation surely deserves the support of the community.
On this, we agree. I'm a bit leery of Bitshares' model, as fully-backed is my own policy, but Dan is very talented and has a real vision. It remains to be seen if a derivative-type model is a robust proxy for fully-backed, but that's why this whole field is labeled "experimental." Can't have experimental without experiments. Until you and Dan can have your full discussion I'll just point out that we see utility in both fully-backed and derivative-types. Numerous exchange partners will issue "fully backed" User Issued Assets that, of course, have counterparty risk associated with whoever is doing the backing. Then we have market pegged assets that have no such counterparty risk. Then users have the ability to spread their risks out as they see fit and rebalance that spread in one second as often as they like. So the answer to this experiment will be determined on what the market decides. I think it will pick both. |
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StanLarimer (OP)
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July 11, 2015, 12:53:28 PM
Last edit: July 13, 2015, 04:50:14 PM by StanLarimer |
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Nice little 2-minute overview of BitShares 2.0: BitShares 2.0 Overview
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StanLarimer (OP)
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July 11, 2015, 02:04:48 PM |
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CALIBRATION POINTBy the way, below is a sample of the kind of "Altcoin Discussions" I always hoped we would be able to have with folks in this forum. Compare this to what usually goes on among the schoolboy spitball crowd and then ask which is the best use of your time... I would like to better understand how the actual functionality will look for users, because it appears a bit vague to me at the moment. (Apologies if the answers are obvious to others). So as a starting point:
Say I have fiat USD, and I want to start trading cryptos. I send the fiat USD to CCEDK - do I then receive bitUSD in return or a gateway USD (say CCEDK.USD)?
Likewise if I were to send BTC or alt-coin to CCEDK, do I receive the Smartcoin version (e.g. bitBTC) or a gateway equivalent (say CCEDK.BTC)? If there were more than one privatised Smartcoin equivalent of any fiat or crypto, which version would I receive?
Assuming I receive the appropriate Smartcoin equivalents, then is my crypto-trading limited to whatever cryptos are currently represented in BitShares in Smartcoin form? ie. I speculate in bitDASH rather than real DASH or a gateway IOU called CCEDK.DASH?
What is the profit model for CCEDK dependent on? For example, would CCEDK be creating their own privatised Smartcoins to represent DOGE, DASH, BLK etc in order to earn trading fees as a privatised issuer? Or would they be rewarded in some way for setting up markets for various trading pairs? If there are multiple exchanges like CCEDK in the network competing in these activities, would we end up with multiple representations of each coin (which would not seem very efficient from a user perspective)?
Or is the profit model transformed primarily into a referral model, where CCEDK receives a cut of all trading activity in the BitShares exchange resulting from members brought into the system?
How are different exchanges in the BitShares Exchange Network likely to differentiate themselves?
It seems a lot like this is all questions based on CCEDK being the new Bitshares wallet, and as such I would appreciate [member=6]Stan[/member] to come up with some clever explanation on the various options! Since you are asking a generic question, I'll provide a generic answer and let CCEDK and other partners comment on their specific customizations when they are ready to announce them. At the core of everything sits the Cryptonomex web wallet with built-in decentralized exchange and financial products factory which will be hosted on partner sites. This provides the standard back end (market order books and trading engine, etc.) and front end (hosted web wallet that looks like a familiar exchange.) It also provides built-in interfaces to other leading coins and partner-supplied financial products and services. Fiat can enter/exit the system via any member with the proper licenses who can buy/sell any asset on the BitShares exchange that they like from their own inventory of SmartCoins and Exchange Issued Assets. They can even sell assets issued by other partners if they want to. Just like selling books on Amazon - from inventory in their own wallet accounts. So customers can choose between bitDash or CCEDKdash on the network or actual Dash in CCEDK inventory on their dash wallet. (Of course the CCEDKdash UIA on the bitshares network is essentially nothing but a claim on the actual Dash in the CCEDK wallet and is only as good as their counterparty promise to redeem it.) Users get the choice whether to take that risk or pay to move into the BitShares bitDash market pegged asset to be counterparty free. Or they could choose the CCEDK private pegged asset which only trusts CCEDK to publish a price feed not to hold the currency itself. In practice, other exchanges will offer similar choices and all will trade with slight premiums or discounts based on perceived risk and reputation of each issuer. Repeat: Users get the choice. Shocking. Once a user has those assets, they can trade them with no further counterparty risk on the decentralized exchange - interacting with users from every partner on the network. So, as you have just seen and will soon see again (cue the dark mystery music), businesses who are not exchanges can join our network and instantly have a basic exchange and wallet built in (just like a typical shopping cart is built in) and integrated with their industry-specific business processes. Stay tuned for more Summer Announcements.
Then each partner/industry gets to customize it as much as they want, including: - Making simple branding or "white label" changes with logos and color schemes.
- Adding in GUI elements to present extra site-unique tools and features.
- Linking between these GUI elements to custom business logic between the BitShares wallet and other coin wallets or the APIs of other fiat payment services and partners.
- Implementing their own assets and financial products using the tools provided by BitShares for which they get their share of the fees associated with those products
- Implementing their own unique customer support services and loyalty programs.
- Implementing their own unique customer acquisition strategies competing to sign up BitShares users.
- Implementing their own unique strategies to train and up-sell customers into using more services for which they are entitled to their share of the fees from the whole network for every customer they signed up.
- Negotiating their own deals to bring other partners into the mix - like CCEDK did with Bit-X.
Example: A worker in Omaha feeds some of his paycheck dollars into a Peak Ventures ATM machine and one second later his wife in Tijuana buys groceries with it using her CCEDK Nanocard. The use cases of all the newly available seamless partner integrations are mind-boggling. Everybody wins: The issuer of an asset gets the fees from the use of that asset by everybody else's users. The recruiter of a user gets the fees from the use of the network for everybody else's products. ... and we all benefit from greater economic volume - which itself attracts more users and service providers. So, bottom line:- Network members compete to win and retain customers - usually drawn from completely different demographics.
- Our affiliate incentive program gives them credit for everything those customers do on the whole network - by introducing them to products and services offered by other network partners.
- They gain by having their own products and services marketed to the customers of other network members.
- They gain by sharing market depth and liquidity in a single global marketplace.
- They gain by sharing in the "unhackable" and "transparent" set of order books that protect the consumers for the first time from exchange counterparty risk.
This changes everything. Thanks for your comments Stan, and highlighting the flexibility in the range of assets an exchange could offer. Below are some more questions, I'm really just trying to understand how the pieces work. Feel free to correct any of my misunderstandings. When we say the exchanges will be able to share market depth and liquidity, are we referring specifically to markets where both tokens in the pair are on-chain assets? The way I am seeing this at the moment (correctly or not) is that, like a traditional exchange, I can deposit fiat USD, alt-coins, or other types of assets to the member exchange. Any deposits in the form of off-chain assets (e.g. fiat currency, BTC, LTC etc) then get credited to my account with that member exchange as an IOU from them, supported by their inventory of that asset, until I withdraw them from the member exchange, or trade them for another asset. I presume I will be able to hold on-chain assets obtained through the member exchange in some way that is counterparty-risk free, and transfer to or from the hosted wallet. I am then supposing that where I am trading between two assets, at least one of which is an IOU from the exchange, that those markets have liquidity specific to the member exchange, and do not benefit from shared depth or liquidity with other exchanges. I'm thinking this because the buyer or seller on the other side needs to want to accept the issuer-specific IOU in return. When I do exchange trades exclusively between on-chain assets (e.g. BTS, bitUSD, bitDASH etc), then market depth and liquidity is shared because the exchange GUI is drawing on the common market in the DEX. Is this close to what users should expect? Exchanges can continue to do anything they did before, including having funds on deposit from users that carry traditional exchange counterparty risk. But they don't need to. They could have a simple interface like shapeshift, blocktrades, metaexchange where buying BTS or a Smartcoin (eg BitUSD, BitGold) is more like buying a book from inventory on Amazon. The exchange either has them in inventory or buys them off the BitShares Exchange for you just in time using any other currency they have on the BitShares exchange already. Most likely, that asset is one they have issued themselves on the BitShares network. Exchange A might issue EXA.USD and Exchange B might issue EXB.USD. These they guarantee to always redeem for fiat USD and that promise is as good as their reputation. Thus, EXA.USD and EXB.USD might trade slightly differently against BitUSD on the BitShares Exchange depending on the perceived reputations of the two exchanges. Now, anything can trade against anything on BitShares 2.0 so you could trade EXA.USD against EXB.USD or against BitUSD or anything else. I might pay USD to Exchange A (via a convenient ATM they have) to have EXA.USD placed my BitShares account. During this time I'm exposed to Exchange A counterparty risk. I might then offer EXA.USD for BitUSD in a market whose depth is a function of Exchange A's popularity. Now I'm in BitUSD and can trade deeply against holders of BitUSD referred by all exchanges to obtain deep markets in assets offered for sale by users referred by all exchanges. During this time I have no counterparty risk - just blockchain systemic risk. When its time to leave I might decide to exit through Exchange B (because they have a debit card I like) I trade BitCNY against EXB.CNY in a market whose depth is a function of Exchange B's popularity. During this time I'm exposed to Exchange B counterparty risk. So 99% of the time I'm completely inside the BitShares blockchain, and exposed to exchange risk only for a few seconds while I'm "just passing through". This doesn't bother the member exchanges, because they have a stake in the fees from all my transactions while I'm nice and safe inside the blockchain and doing transactions among a bigger economic pool of users and assets and services from all exchanges.
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chryspano
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July 12, 2015, 05:10:39 AM |
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Video doesn't play, there is a message "this video is private, sorry about that" |
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sidhujag
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July 12, 2015, 10:40:07 AM |
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people, that is why nxt is below bts in marketcap because of shills like ^^.. Btw you have something green on your nose there.
The only reason why Bitshares has ANY marketcap at all is because they use disingenuous tactics. I'm just curious... how many brownie bucks are you going to get for this post? Dude I could shut u up for good with your nxt project with info you don't like to hear and neither does anyone else how about you stop posting before you stop doing your own community any good k? Mind ur own business and let the real Devs do their work. |
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DecentralizeEconomics
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White Male Libertarian Bro
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July 13, 2015, 04:16:31 AM |
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people, that is why nxt is below bts in marketcap because of shills like ^^.. Btw you have something green on your nose there.
The only reason why Bitshares has ANY marketcap at all is because they use disingenuous tactics. I'm just curious... how many brownie bucks are you going to get for this post? Dude I could shut u up for good with your nxt project with info you don't like to hear and neither does anyone else how about you stop posting before you stop doing your own community any good k? Mind ur own business and let the real Devs do their work. My stance towards Bitshares has nothing to do with NXT. I've said numerous times that NXT has no competition, but, if it did, it certainly isn't from a third-rate, for-profit company run by two disingenuous imbeciles who can't figure out how to make money besides coming up with little schemes which are completely transparent to anyone who possesses more than two brain cells. Now, I've been following Bitshares for longer than just about anyone, before Protoshares was even released, and I've seen first hand all the changes Bitshares has gone through. I've heard all the stories about the supposed ideology behind Bitshares and the ideals and intent of the developers and I'd like to tell everyone right now what a line of BS that was. These clowns have enacted full-fledged Corporatist/Communist policies all under the ruse of being "libertarians" and proponents of free society. Let me ask you something... When was the last time you met a "libertarian" who didn't believe in free speech? ... Or wanted a central power to be able to enact wealth confiscation? ... Or thought elections should be conducted using the notoriously unfair and riggable approval voting system? Bitshares is the complete anti-thesis of the ideology behind the cryptocurrency movement and I won't be quiet about revealing traitors to the cause. They can't buy everyone with their "ass-kissing" bucks. |
"Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties." - Areopagitica
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sidhujag
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July 13, 2015, 04:19:59 AM |
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people, that is why nxt is below bts in marketcap because of shills like ^^.. Btw you have something green on your nose there.
The only reason why Bitshares has ANY marketcap at all is because they use disingenuous tactics. I'm just curious... how many brownie bucks are you going to get for this post? Dude I could shut u up for good with your nxt project with info you don't like to hear and neither does anyone else how about you stop posting before you stop doing your own community any good k? Mind ur own business and let the real Devs do their work. My stance towards Bitshares has nothing to do with NXT. I've said numerous times that NXT has no competition, but, if it did, it certainly isn't from a third-rate, for-profit company run by two disingenuous imbeciles who can't figure out how to make money besides coming up with little schemes which are completely transparent to anyone who possesses more than two brain cells. Now, I've been following Bitshares for longer than just about anyone, before Protoshares was even released, and I've seen first hand all the changes Bitshares has gone through. I've heard all the stories about the supposed ideology behind Bitshares and the ideals and intent of the developers and I'd like to tell everyone right now what a line of BS that was. These clowns have enacted full-fledged Corporatist/Communist policies all under the ruse of being "libertarians" and proponents of free society. Let me ask you something... When was the last time you met a "libertarian" who didn't believe in free speech? ... Or wanted a central power to be able to enact wealth confiscation? ... Or thought elections should be conducted using the notoriously unfair and riggable approval voting system? Bitshares is the complete anti-thesis of the ideology behind the cryptocurrency movement and I won't be quiet about revealing traitors to the cause. They can't buy everyone with their "ass-kissing" bucks. Have you read the code? I suggest you do so before making such biased opinions.. Only truth is in the code. I recommend to do so and you will probably end up switching over to the good guys |
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EvilDave
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July 13, 2015, 10:42:17 AM |
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The code is only part of it.......look at the scams carried out using BTC code, or even NXT code. Code is neutral, like a weapon. There's obviously a difference between functional elegant code, and shitty bug filled garbage, but the quality of BTS code is not in question here: the issues have more to do with the business built up around the code. BTS claims to subscribe to a libertarian philisophy, but then behaves as a dictatorship. As with DE, I've followed BTS for a long time, and I've completely lost any form of serious faith in the project. It looks to me, these days, that BTS have lost their way, and are now reduced to pumping vapourware (the 100,000 TPS blockchain) while copying features from other currencies (BTS Exchange Network = NXT Asset Exchange)). The thing I love about BEN (in a nasty, sarcastic way...  ) is that BTS used to be against the idea of a completely open asset issuance system, but were going to concentrate on building qualitatively superior DACs, rather than allowing absolutely anyone on board, as with the NXT Asset Exchange. Yet now BEN is one of BTS major selling points......and is still vapourware, as is the 100,000 TPS "BTS 2.0 industrial strength" blockchain. |
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testz
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July 13, 2015, 11:31:34 AM |
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...
It looks to me, these days, that BTS have lost their way, and are now reduced to pumping vapourware (the 100,000 TPS blockchain) while copying features from other currencies (BTS Exchange Network = NXT Asset Exchange)).
...
To be honest, main goal of BitShares from beginning was market pegged assets so do you expected market pegged assets without asset exchange? Do you think NXT Asset Exchange was an first blockchain asset exchange? What about Counterparty and Mastercoin (Omni)? |
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EvilDave
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July 13, 2015, 01:06:33 PM |
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Yeah, that's what I meant. Idiotic, misquoting, missing the point shilling really improves the situation.
To be honest, main goal of BitShares from beginning was market pegged assets so do you expected market pegged assets without asset exchange?
Do you think NXT Asset Exchange was an first blockchain asset exchange? What about Counterparty and Mastercoin (Omni)?
Market pegged assets/DACS, to be pedantic. That's the point: BTS was, once upon a time, focussed on pegged assets and DACS. Seemed sane enough. So at which moment did BTS decide to focus hype on the fact that they will have a completely open NXT-style exchange, the BEN ? Why is this so hype-worthy ? Is copying a NXT feature the best that BTS can come up with ? And, no I don't think that Nxt AE was the very first AE implementation, but I do think that it was the first completely open implementation. (anyone got exact dates for XCP or MS/Omni, btw,? NXT AE went live May 2014) BTS, Counterparty and Mastercoin/Omni all required a certain level of input from their communities/dev teams to issue assets, NXT allows anyone with access to $14 to issue an asset, for better or worse. |
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testz
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July 13, 2015, 01:27:09 PM |
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...
And, no I don't think that Nxt AE was the very first AE implementation, but I do think that it was the first completely open implementation.
(anyone got exact dates for XCP or MS/Omni, btw,? NXT AE went live May 2014)
BTS, Counterparty and Mastercoin/Omni all required a certain level of input from their communities/dev teams to issue assets, NXT allows anyone with access to $14 to issue an asset, for better or worse.
Counterparty - April 2014https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterparty_(technology) Counterparty to Create First Peer-to-Peer Digital Asset Exchange Platform http://cointelegraph.com/news/111096/counterparty_to_create_first_peer_to_peer_digital_asset_exchange_platform#.U1AbsPRDsntCounterparty Asset issuance (Alphabetical you will need 0.5 XCP, Numeric are free, and only require a Bitcoin transaction fee) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyzA5Lj1ajMMastercoin (Omni) - April 2014, MaidSafe used a crowdsale to raise over $7,000,000https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MastercoinNXT - 12 May 2014https://wiki.nxtcrypto.org/wiki/Asset_Exchange |
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StanLarimer (OP)
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July 13, 2015, 01:43:49 PM
Last edit: July 13, 2015, 04:53:03 PM by StanLarimer |
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And BitShares went live in July 2014 to round out the Bitcoin 2.0 Summer Class of 2014 (Counterparty, Mastercoin, NXT and BitShares). Each of the four products chose different trades between time to market, technology, and feature sets. Now we each live with those decisions. The market will determine which was the best strategy. Asset exchanges are nice, but that's not what we're most excited about. (Lots of companies make cars with four wheels.) The BitShares Exchange Network is a Network of multiple, independent Exchanges, not just one asset exchange on a blockchain. It's the combination of features that makes centralized exchanges eager to stop having private, stovepipe order books and put them all out there on the BitShares blockchain as one transparent, shared, unhackable order book. And you can see all the pieces of that attractive package at bitshares.org. Connecting all the dots is an exercise for the student. |
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StanLarimer (OP)
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July 13, 2015, 05:03:52 PM |
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Here's the transcript to last Friday's global press conference with Dan Larimer. A brief sample follows: BitShares Dev Hangout – Bytemaster : Cryptonomex and Brownie.PTS
Dan Larimer of Cryptonomex talking with BitShares community members regarding BitShares 2.0 updates along with the introduction of BROWNIE.PTS and what they’re all about. [00:01:31] fuzzy: Welcome everyone. today we’re joined by bytemaster for his weekly hangout. bytemaster is the CEO of Cryptonomex. which is a company that is going to be working on the BitShares blockchain, as well as others. As we move from BitShares being a one team show, into a more decentralized chain, the community is very important. [00:02:20] fuzzy: The format is we’ll let bytemaster give his updates for the week. then we’ll open it up to community questions. feel free to type your questions into the chat box and I will try to ask them for you. [00:03:14] bytemaster: It’s been a busy past 2 weeks. we have been working long hours, trying to make sure that everything is ready for the testnet. We have started doing our own internal test network over the internet. This week our goal is to work out as many bugs as possible with the testnet before we turn it over for wider community testing. [00:03:57] bytemaster: The reasoning behind this approach is, if we can still find issues, and it’s real easy for us to find things, then it’s more efficient for us to fix it, than to open it up for the entire communities input. [00:04:22] bytemaster: That said, we believe we’ve completed the basic protocol and things are really starting to solidify. One of the things that we have done is we’ve postponed the bond market features. Not because they’re not implemented, but simply because we don’t have the resources to thoroughly test them as much as we would like before we could release it. And because there is no user interface for it. It’s such a niche feature, we figured we’d rather release all of the stuff that is compatible with BitShares 1.0 first, then follow it with a 2.1 release that includes the bond market feature. [00:05:12] bytemaster: That will give the community some extra time to review the proposed changes and it will also be the first hardfork voted in by the community. We’re really happy with the progress. we appreciate the patience everyone has. software development always takes longer than we would like. [00:05:40] bytemaster: At this point I will open it up to any questions. [00:05:45] CryptoPrometheus: I know there’s going to be a 30 day window before the snapshot day, are you going to do the same thing for DevShares? <Click here to read the rest> |
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StanLarimer (OP)
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July 14, 2015, 12:22:23 AM |
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Latest article out today on the CCEDK Nanocard. Nanocard turns exchange account into secure wallet and integrated cashcard.
The NanoCard is effectively a bitcoin-supported credit card, denominated in both EUR and USD. Unlike a prepaid card, the NanoCard is the first card funded by your bitcoin balance as the card is used. Funds are thereby held in bitcoin – decentralised, outside of the control of banks, governments or any other third parties – until they are needed. Combine that with the universal acceptance of major credit cards and you have something potentially very disruptive. |
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StanLarimer (OP)
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July 14, 2015, 12:40:16 AM |
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Also, this one: CCEDK and BIT-X release first true crypto debit card.In addition to strictly storing the funds as Bitcoin or USD, the user will have the option to store their money as a BitShares BitAsset. Also referred to as SmartCoins, they would be pegged to the value of the dollar or another major currency.
"A new generation of 2.0 coins is being used to address the volatility issue. BitShares’ SmartCoins will be available as funding options for the NanoCard in the coming months, meaning that customer balances can be safely stored as crypto coins pegged to USD, EUR, CNY or even gold and silver, and converted only at the time of use," explained CEO Ronnie Boesing.
This is a fundamentally lacking feature in many card programs available to Bitcoiners, although Bitreserve has come along way to deal with the problem of volatility. The new card will be called the NanoCard and will be broadly available to customers of the exchange beginning today.
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brekyrself
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July 14, 2015, 01:33:51 AM |
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Also, this one: CCEDK and BIT-X release first true crypto debit card.In addition to strictly storing the funds as Bitcoin or USD, the user will have the option to store their money as a BitShares BitAsset. Also referred to as SmartCoins, they would be pegged to the value of the dollar or another major currency.
"A new generation of 2.0 coins is being used to address the volatility issue. BitShares’ SmartCoins will be available as funding options for the NanoCard in the coming months, meaning that customer balances can be safely stored as crypto coins pegged to USD, EUR, CNY or even gold and silver, and converted only at the time of use," explained CEO Ronnie Boesing.
This is a fundamentally lacking feature in many card programs available to Bitcoiners, although Bitreserve has come along way to deal with the problem of volatility. The new card will be called the NanoCard and will be broadly available to customers of the exchange beginning today.
Stan any background on how the NanoCard actually works from start to finish in a transaction? Does Bit-X or CCEDK hold a bank account in USD which the cards actually draw from? How does it go over the normal banking/credit card network? |
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