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Author Topic: crypto-games.net, 30% house edge, bugs and vulnerabilities, screw the investors!  (Read 12943 times)
dooglus
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July 04, 2015, 02:52:56 AM
Last edit: July 04, 2015, 04:49:49 AM by dooglus
 #281

ive already offered just 1 BTC to give the details of the bug allowing for +EV bets, and another .5 BTC for a more serious bug found by dooglus.

I think the issue I found would go away as soon as they fixed the bug that you found to be honest. They're pretty related.

I've been offline most of the day so haven't been able to keep up with this thread. I'll edit this with replies to later posts as I read them.

We are pretty confident in our code. We log many different hack attempts every day.

Exploit it please, and earn 1 btc. When you do we are willing to pay you 1.5btc extra to tell us about it. We are tired of this lame scam attempts. We get mails of exploits weekly, but no one proved or steal anything. Only reason why we offered you any amount is because you have others users backing you up.

I told you that I verified that he is able to get a 30% edge over the house.

Do you think I'm lying to try to scam 1.5 BTC out of you? Really?

Lol. Foolish remark on Crypto-Games' side. A bug or an exploit shouldn't be taken lightly, especially when it involves money.

Not only that, but it's other people's money they're risking here. They take 'investments'. I wonder if they have any idea who came up with that idea...  Roll Eyes

ill consider that as an invitation for me and dooglus, we'll start when hes awake.

I don't think I will. The site has the old-fashioned kind of provable fairness where they change the server seed every roll, and so you need to do an awful lot of work to verify the fairness. You would need to note the server seed hash before every roll, change the client seed unpredictably before every roll, then verify that the revealed server seed really hashes to the provided hash and that the two seeds together give the correct roll. Every roll. It's just too much work to expect anyone to do.

No modern dice site uses this kind of provable fairness any more. Even Prime Dice finally switched to using the static server seed + nonce method that Just-Dice pioneered about a year ago after many requests from players.

heres how bad it is, credit goes to dooglus for compiling this:

multiplier, win chance, edge

6613x  0.02% 32.26%
3968x  0.03% 19.04%
2834x  0.04% 13.36%

I have ran simulation for this cases, and don't see any issue with it.... Am I missing something....

Yes! Players expect to win the 0.03% bet once in 3000 rolls. When they do, they are paid 3968 units. If you have a greater than 1/3968 chance of winning 3968 units, that's +EV. In this case it's a 19.04% edge for the player.

It beggars belief you don't recognise the problem even after having it spelled out to you.

As I said this is issue I can't reproduce in my simulator, I won't bother doing math as we have already did. Now we run only simulations....

Is there a grown-up anywhere near you? Maybe get them to help you. For fuck sake man, this is insane.

Or you know, just use fucking maths. Hint: It's two multiplications and one addition. Sum of the probabilities by its respective profit, which gives you the players EV. If it doesn't equal -0.01 you're got the wrong payouts.

Taking the most extremely wrong one:

0.02% chance of 6613x

That's a 0.0002 chance of a profit of 6612, and a (1-0.0002) chance of a profit of -1

Or:  0.0002 * 6612 + (1-0.002)*-1 = 0.3244

...a players advantage of 32.44%

Your math is a little wrong, and overly complicated. The player's edge is 32.26%, not 32.44%:

heres how bad it is, credit goes to dooglus for compiling this:

multiplier, win chance, edge

6613x  0.02% 32.26%

You used 0.002 when you should have used 0.0002:

>>> 0.0002 * 6612 + (1-0.0002)*-1
0.3226

But it's easier just to calculate the payout. It's 0 when the player loses, and 6613 when they win, so return to player per 100 bet is:

>>> 6613 * 0.02
132.26

ie. a 32.26% edge.

You are wrong somewhere as I have entered exact parameters in simulator and result after 10 mil is 0 btc.

Has it occurred to you that it is possible that you might be wrong? The alternative is that everybody else is wrong, since they all seem to be telling you the same thing.

For this 32% issue or whatever it is impossible to reproduce, so you are wrong at some point, not sure where.

Since you don't seem to believe in math, I wrote a simple simulation of the 3968x at 0.03% bet:

Quote
#!/usr/bin/env python

import random

payout = 3968
chance = 0.03

starting_balance = 1
bet = 0.00000001
rolls = 10000000

def roll():
    return random.randint(0, 9999) < 3

balance = starting_balance
count = 0
while count < rolls:
    balance -= bet
    if roll():
        balance += payout*bet
    count += 1

    if (count < 100000 and count % 10000 == 0) or count % 100000 == 0:
        print "after %10d rolls, risked %7.4f, balance %10.8f, profit = %f%%" % (count, count*bet, balance, 100 * (balance - starting_balance) / (count*bet))

When you run it, the profit is up and down at first, but it settles down after a while:

Quote
after      10000 rolls, risked  0.0001, balance 1.00001904, profit = 19.040000%
after      20000 rolls, risked  0.0002, balance 0.99995872, profit = -20.640000%
after      30000 rolls, risked  0.0003, balance 0.99993808, profit = -20.640000%
after      40000 rolls, risked  0.0004, balance 0.99995712, profit = -10.720000%
after      50000 rolls, risked  0.0005, balance 1.00001584, profit = 3.168000%
after      60000 rolls, risked  0.0006, balance 1.00007456, profit = 12.426667%
after      70000 rolls, risked  0.0007, balance 1.00009360, profit = 13.371429%
after      80000 rolls, risked  0.0008, balance 1.00007296, profit = 9.120000%
after      90000 rolls, risked  0.0009, balance 1.00001264, profit = 1.404445%
after     100000 rolls, risked  0.0010, balance 0.99995232, profit = -4.768000%
after     200000 rolls, risked  0.0020, balance 1.00038080, profit = 19.040000%
after     300000 rolls, risked  0.0030, balance 1.00065056, profit = 21.685334%
after     400000 rolls, risked  0.0040, balance 1.00088064, profit = 22.016000%
after     500000 rolls, risked  0.0050, balance 1.00130912, profit = 26.182400%
after     600000 rolls, risked  0.0060, balance 1.00153920, profit = 25.653334%
after     700000 rolls, risked  0.0070, balance 1.00176928, profit = 25.275429%
after     800000 rolls, risked  0.0080, balance 1.00192000, profit = 24.000001%
after     900000 rolls, risked  0.0090, balance 1.00215008, profit = 23.889778%
after    1000000 rolls, risked  0.0100, balance 1.00241984, profit = 24.198401%
...
after    9000000 rolls, risked  0.0900, balance 1.01892160, profit = 21.024001%
after    9100000 rolls, risked  0.0910, balance 1.01895328, profit = 20.827781%
after    9200000 rolls, risked  0.0920, balance 1.01942144, profit = 21.110261%
after    9300000 rolls, risked  0.0930, balance 1.01961184, profit = 21.088001%
after    9400000 rolls, risked  0.0940, balance 1.01972288, profit = 20.981788%
after    9500000 rolls, risked  0.0950, balance 1.02019104, profit = 21.253727%
after    9600000 rolls, risked  0.0960, balance 1.02073856, profit = 21.602667%
after    9700000 rolls, risked  0.0970, balance 1.02096864, profit = 21.617155%
after    9800000 rolls, risked  0.0980, balance 1.02107968, profit = 21.509878%
after    9900000 rolls, risked  0.0990, balance 1.02111136, profit = 21.324607%
after   10000000 rolls, risked  0.1000, balance 1.02118272, profit = 21.182721%

The math predicts a player profit of 19.04%. The simulation shows a player profit of 21% after 10 million rolls. If you ran the simulation for longer, it would settle down at 19.04%. So I guess you either didn't run your simulation for long enough or made an error coding it.

You are the worst sort of idiot. You can't compute basic probability, yet are arrogant. I was wrong in thinking that no one could exploit your site, as you'd wonder why they were betting thousands of bets at a high multiplier, but apparently even when you are told the bug you are too daft to comprehend it. He probably could've bled your bankroll dry and you wouldn't never realized.

When subSTRATA came to me with this and I confirmed it was a real issue, he asked for my advice on how to proceed. I told him I have had mostly bad experiences with bug bounties. Most site operators will stiff you on the bounty if they think they can get away with it. We had a discussion about the morality of making the +EV bets just enough to earn what the feel the bounty is worth, and then reporting it "for free". subSTRATA was very much of the opinion that that would be wrong, and that he would just approach the site directly. I think he assumed that they take his message seriously since I was vouching for the fact that it was real. I think we were both shocked by the arrogance of their response.

Look you idiot, tell me all parameters that he used and I will check.

But if you bet on payout 3968
And roll under 0.3

You don't make any profit at all in 100 million bets. But if I am missing a parameter that you didn't tell me then it's a different story.

You missed a zero. It's 0.03% at 3968x. At 0.3% the profit should be huge, since that's an edge of 0.3 * 3968 - 100 = 1090.4% for the player.

I even gave him a clear mathematical working to only be called an idiot in kind.

You called me idiot first.  And yeah, I will miss you very much.

That's different. He called you an idiot because you were being an idiot.

You called him an idiot because you were butthurt.

And thanks for negative feedback whoever gave it to me. Kiddie.

I wouldnt call quickseller of all people a "kiddie...."

Maybe he is a man that can't read then? All issues in this thread were fixed.

I think the biggest issue in this thread is the horrible way you dealt with the whole situation. I can't imagine how you could have been any less professional. I don't have any reason to believe that you will react any differently to future bug reports. Do you?

And I hate red color. I hate math too, but can still code. F***.

You should stop coding. If you don't understand the math underlying the algorithms that you are coding you end up with horrible errors like we have seen here. You are lucky that subSTRATA took the approach he did rather than slowly bleeding your bankroll dry. It seems like there is very little chance you would have ever found out how it was happening considering how hard it was to pound the understanding into you in this thread.

I did about 10,000 rolls at .0002BTC, stopping occasionally.  The first 5,000 rolls were hit or miss.  The next 5,000 rolls I didn't win any to the point where I needed to cut my bet size down in half.  Once I started betting .0001BTC, I never won a single wager.

I had a similar experience yesterday. I had horrible losing streaks, but put it down to variance. I didn't keep logs at all, and didn't have any kind of seed logging in place either.

The site claims to be provably fair, but for all intents and purposes the amount of work the player needs to put in to verify the fairness means it may as well not be.

They should change to use a system like Just-Dice uses, where the player can make a million rolls at <0.02% and then at the end reveal their server seed and easily check how many times they should have won by running the provably fair algorithm in a loop with a single seed pair and an ever-changing nonce. Lots of sites have adopted that system - it's free for anyone to use.

if dooglus wants to post one too ill gladly edit it into the op, the guy really deserves credit for finding some back-end bugs.

1JtD6uG43feZrUqgxTYsQAPTmgmq8hogCt is an address for me. But don't feel the need to tip me - I didn't do anything other than vouch for subSTRATA's find.

Wait, so Dooglus blackmails other sites too? word it anyway you want but this was blackmail, pay my price or I release / sell the exploit that would harm not only the owner but innocent investors who probably didn't know better.

right? Or am I missing something here?

No, here's how I do it: I email the site and disclose the bug report up front. Then they try to find excuses not to pay me. Sometimes they end up paying something, but most often I get nothing.

In this case I was merely vouching for subSTRATA. He didn't want to get ripped off by the site and so wanted to get paid up front. They wouldn't believe him if I didn't vouch for him. And didn't believe him that I did. Ho hum.

I don't think anyone was threatening to release or sell the exploit, but maybe I'm wrong.

"I have found an issue with your site that others could potentially use to steal from you, I have no intention of disclosing it to anyone other then you, nor do I have any intention of using such exploit personally, although I cannot guarantee that others will not use the same public information to exploit this same issue."

I think the above would pass the test of not being blackmail, while still being reasonably compensated for your time/skills.

The fact is that gambling sites are for-profit entities, and giving advice as to how to prevent yourself from getting robbed when large amounts of money is at stake should not be given for free. These sites should invest in the time/effort to prevent these kinds of exploits from existing in the first place.

Exactly. It is common practice for gambling sites NOT to reward people who help them fix security holes, and so it doesn't seem unreasonable to withhold information until the reward is paid. Their site contains text claiming that the DO reward people who report bugs, and so it doesn't seem unreasonable to use what is effectively an escrow to hold knowledge of the bug in exchange for the reward.

Or, in other words: They say "we pay for bugs". There is a history of sites breaking that promise, and so using a "bug escrow" (like me) seems reasonable. And not like blackmail at all.

it may be that your ip/account is blacklisted to skip nonces or something of the sort.

No need to skip nonces. The site doesn't use them. It makes up a new server seed for each roll.

Just-Dice                 ██             
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   1% House Edge
subSTRATA (OP)
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July 04, 2015, 02:56:45 AM
 #282

ive already offered just 1 BTC to give the details of the bug allowing for +EV bets, and another .5 BTC for a more serious bug found by dooglus.

I think the issue I found would go away as soon as they fixed the bug that you found to be honest. They're pretty related.

I've been most of the day so haven't been able to keep up with this thread. I'll edit this with replies to later posts as I read them.

now that you mention it, i see how the second one would be fixed if a proper fix for the first one was to be implemented. right now, the hotfix joter85 has decided to implement is to simply add another decimal place to the roll value, but the rounding error still exists here, just on a smaller scale.

theres nothing here. message me if you want to put something here.
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July 04, 2015, 03:01:53 AM
 #283

ive already offered just 1 BTC to give the details of the bug allowing for +EV bets, and another .5 BTC for a more serious bug found by dooglus.

I think the issue I found would go away as soon as they fixed the bug that you found to be honest. They're pretty related.

I've been most of the day so haven't been able to keep up with this thread. I'll edit this with replies to later posts as I read them.

now that you mention it, i see how the second one would be fixed if a proper fix for the first one was to be implemented. right now, the hotfix joter85 has decided to implement is to simply add another decimal place to the roll value, but the rounding error still exists here, just on a smaller scale.

No idea why joter hasn't just closed the site to fix these issues and then reopen after making sure everything is properly secured.
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July 04, 2015, 03:07:35 AM
 #284

ive already offered just 1 BTC to give the details of the bug allowing for +EV bets, and another .5 BTC for a more serious bug found by dooglus.

I think the issue I found would go away as soon as they fixed the bug that you found to be honest. They're pretty related.

I've been most of the day so haven't been able to keep up with this thread. I'll edit this with replies to later posts as I read them.

now that you mention it, i see how the second one would be fixed if a proper fix for the first one was to be implemented. right now, the hotfix joter85 has decided to implement is to simply add another decimal place to the roll value, but the rounding error still exists here, just on a smaller scale.

No idea why joter hasn't just closed the site to fix these issues and then reopen after making sure everything is properly secured.

three possibilities:

1) he's asleep
2) based on the stubbornness displayed earlier in the thread (simulator, "i dont like math") he might be taking stubbornness to a new level when there is clearly an exploit being abused at this very moment
3) the site has gone full scam and the admin/dev is waiting for the right time.

theres nothing here. message me if you want to put something here.
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July 04, 2015, 03:12:30 AM
 #285

ive already offered just 1 BTC to give the details of the bug allowing for +EV bets, and another .5 BTC for a more serious bug found by dooglus.

I think the issue I found would go away as soon as they fixed the bug that you found to be honest. They're pretty related.

I've been most of the day so haven't been able to keep up with this thread. I'll edit this with replies to later posts as I read them.

now that you mention it, i see how the second one would be fixed if a proper fix for the first one was to be implemented. right now, the hotfix joter85 has decided to implement is to simply add another decimal place to the roll value, but the rounding error still exists here, just on a smaller scale.

No idea why joter hasn't just closed the site to fix these issues and then reopen after making sure everything is properly secured.
Because he's stupid. Either that or he is trying to extort money out of the site. Anyones guess at this point why he refuses to make a proper fix or take the site down considering he is risking others money.
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July 04, 2015, 03:12:42 AM
 #286

I can't believe that this admin won't pay just 1.5 BTC for these serious bugs
32% edge is really serious , if players know this method they will get more than hufflepuff
I'm really curious to know what is this site , cause if the admin keep refusing to make the deal then I think he doesn't care about his site
and maybe he will scam at any moment
I will keep following the news here
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July 04, 2015, 03:17:46 AM
 #287

ive already offered just 1 BTC to give the details of the bug allowing for +EV bets, and another .5 BTC for a more serious bug found by dooglus.

I think the issue I found would go away as soon as they fixed the bug that you found to be honest. They're pretty related.

I've been most of the day so haven't been able to keep up with this thread. I'll edit this with replies to later posts as I read them.

now that you mention it, i see how the second one would be fixed if a proper fix for the first one was to be implemented. right now, the hotfix joter85 has decided to implement is to simply add another decimal place to the roll value, but the rounding error still exists here, just on a smaller scale.

No idea why joter hasn't just closed the site to fix these issues and then reopen after making sure everything is properly secured.
Because he's stupid. Either that or he is trying to extort money out of the site. Anyones guess at this point why he refuses to make a proper fix or take the site down considering he is risking others money.

I think ive already suggested a proper fix for this earlier in the thread; make the multiplier based off of the winning chance: multiplier = 0.992/(win chance)
right now, the win chance being dependent on the multiplier is causing the rounding issues.

theres nothing here. message me if you want to put something here.
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July 04, 2015, 03:23:04 AM
 #288

I can't believe that this admin won't pay just 1.5 BTC for these serious bugs
32% edge is really serious , if players know this method they will get more than hufflepuff
I'm really curious to know what is this site , cause if the admin keep refusing to make the deal then I think he doesn't care about his site
and maybe he will scam at any moment
I will keep following the news here
You are an incredibly stupid signature spammer.
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July 04, 2015, 03:30:00 AM
 #289

I can't believe that this admin won't pay just 1.5 BTC for these serious bugs
32% edge is really serious , if players know this method they will get more than hufflepuff
I'm really curious to know what is this site , cause if the admin keep refusing to make the deal then I think he doesn't care about his site
and maybe he will scam at any moment
I will keep following the news here
You are an incredibly stupid signature spammer.

It's so obvious and it has become an epidemic. Report them and hope for permabans
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July 04, 2015, 03:51:04 AM
 #290

I can't believe that this admin won't pay just 1.5 BTC for these serious bugs
32% edge is really serious , if players know this method they will get more than hufflepuff
I'm really curious to know what is this site , cause if the admin keep refusing to make the deal then I think he doesn't care about his site
and maybe he will scam at any moment
I will keep following the news here
You are an incredibly stupid signature spammer.

It's so obvious and it has become an epidemic. Report them and hope for permabans
I feel like following the list of major offenders around and reporting them. Would be funny seeing if i could get a few banned (Sy,panjul) Only the ones who seem to have the intelligence of rocks though. There are some who i know only post for signatures but they can least form coherent sentences.
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July 04, 2015, 03:57:19 AM
 #291

Here's the video.  This marks ~25,000 consecutive rolls without a win.  This means in 25,000 rolls, a 1/200 chance -- any number over >99.945.

http://youtu.be/q5ofHQNKtI8

At this point, I don't really care about a refund.

Simply, I'll just be starting a scam accusation and warn all others here that even if this is the result of an infinitely low occurring event, there are way too many problems with the script and edge and is ran by unmotivated and stubborn owners. 

Do NOT play Here!
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July 04, 2015, 04:02:55 AM
 #292

Here's the video.  This marks ~25,000 consecutive rolls without a win.  This means in 25,000 rolls, a 1/200 chance -- any number over >99.945.

http://youtu.be/q5ofHQNKtI8

At this point, I don't really care about a refund.

Simply, I'll just be starting a scam accusation and warn all others here that even if this is the result of an infinitely low occurring event, there are way too many problems with the script and edge and is ran by unmotivated and stubborn owners. 

Do NOT play Here!
God fucking damn doge. That is insane. I really dont think this is possible if its fair. Sucks that you lost money on this but holy shit thats either INCREDIBLEy bad luck or rigged/skipping nonces.
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July 04, 2015, 04:09:26 AM
Last edit: July 04, 2015, 04:49:49 AM by subSTRATA
 #293

Here's the video.  This marks ~25,000 consecutive rolls without a win.  This means in 25,000 rolls, a 1/200 chance -- any number over >99.945.

http://youtu.be/q5ofHQNKtI8

At this point, I don't really care about a refund.

Simply, I'll just be starting a scam accusation and warn all others here that even if this is the result of an infinitely low occurring event, there are way too many problems with the script and edge and is ran by unmotivated and stubborn owners.  

Do NOT play Here!
God fucking damn doge. That is insane. I really dont think this is possible if its fair. Sucks that you lost money on this but holy shit thats either INCREDIBLEy bad luck or rigged/skipping nonces.

dooglus mentioned that the site is using the old provably fair system; it might be more malicious than just skipping nonces, since I'm guessing there aren't nonces to be skipped.

theres nothing here. message me if you want to put something here.
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July 04, 2015, 04:21:04 AM
 #294

as in the title. im fairly sure I found a +EV method for a particular dice site, if someone like dooglus would pm me to confirm for this I would consider selling this bit of info to a few people. just being +EV goes not guarantee massive profits because this is gambling after all, but it is +EV. this does not involve martingale whatsoever.

this goes out to all the haters that said it was impossible

that wasnt the intention at the very beginning, but it is now. I've said it multiple times before in the thread, I will be contacting the site after dooglus's confirmation.

I just confirmed that the site in question does offer +EV bets for the player. In the worst case the edge is 30% for the player.

I fully expect the site to fix this when subSTRATA tells them about it.

at this point in time id like to have shitaifan2013 remove his feedback on me.

address at QS's request; consider a tip address i guess, im not expecting anything from crypto-games.net.
1PfR7yoo6ttNezCQd3NP5fcEhfGGrD456v

-----BEGIN BITCOIN SIGNED MESSAGE-----
today is the third of July, this is subSTRATA of bitcointalk.org claiming this address to be a payout address at the request of quickseller in regards to this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1106133.140
-----BEGIN SIGNATURE-----
1PfR7yoo6ttNezCQd3NP5fcEhfGGrD456v
H3tKhOWaZNZrQ5z+PfirEPdNRJBgfU9moMt+xBgJ/sTieXksdFEV8SopIv1XC4Js+vwylo76UnN97ZFbRrm5MV8=
-----END BITCOIN SIGNED MESSAGE-----
oh shit I have one too, I wonder if ours is the same, Ill read up more on this post.
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July 04, 2015, 04:55:30 AM
 #295

I think ive already suggested a proper fix for this earlier in the thread; make the multiplier based off of the winning chance: multiplier = 0.992/(win chance)
right now, the win chance being dependent on the multiplier is causing the rounding issues.

Exactly this. There are 10k different possible rolls (or 100k, for now, etc.) so have the roll target and the stake be the things which define the bet, and have the payout multiplier be derived from that (and calculated to enough places that the rounding doesn't matter).

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subSTRATA (OP)
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July 04, 2015, 04:59:36 AM
 #296

seems Russel434 has stopped betting for now, grand total profit of 0.16494382 BTC with 2.04093204 wagered.

1094x rolls, 1k satoshi wagers, 9.4% player edge, pretty close to EV.

meanwhile, Rush224 has made off with a bit more:

0.9236765 wagered, 0.27602352 BTC profit; he was doing 6613x rolls which would give him a 32% player edge, which seems close enough for a small sample size.
4.5k satoshi wagers.

theres nothing here. message me if you want to put something here.
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July 04, 2015, 05:00:38 AM
 #297

Here's the video.  This marks ~25,000 consecutive rolls without a win.  This means in 25,000 rolls, a 1/200 chance -- any number over >99.945.

>>> 1 / ((99.946 / 100) ** 25000)
732080.9049554196

That's a 1-in-732k chance?

Also, "The video you have requested is not available." - what's up with that?

Just-Dice                 ██             
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subSTRATA (OP)
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July 04, 2015, 05:03:40 AM
 #298

Here's the video.  This marks ~25,000 consecutive rolls without a win.  This means in 25,000 rolls, a 1/200 chance -- any number over >99.945.

>>> 1 / ((99.946 / 100) ** 25000)
732080.9049554196

That's a 1-in-732k chance?

Also, "The video you have requested is not available." - what's up with that?

might be that sharing settings werent set right, here's the first video though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkhkUcygZv8&feature=youtu.be

also dogedigital feel free to pm me if you want help getting a scam accusation together, id be more than happy to help compile some info for you.

theres nothing here. message me if you want to put something here.
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July 04, 2015, 05:06:13 AM
 #299

Here's the video.  This marks ~25,000 consecutive rolls without a win.  This means in 25,000 rolls, a 1/200 chance -- any number over >99.945.

>>> 1 / ((99.946 / 100) ** 25000)
732080.9049554196

That's a 1-in-732k chance?

Also, "The video you have requested is not available." - what's up with that?

Re-uploading.  The video stopped at 96%. 
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July 04, 2015, 06:21:51 AM
 #300

@Dogedigital It's not impossible, but obviously you had really bad luck.
If others are winning, I don't see why wouldn't you.

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