The 21 Bitcoin Computer

[brg444]

I'd say this paragraph from the medium post sums up the aim most concisely:

Conceptually, we believe that embedded mining will ultimately establish bitcoin as a fundamental system resource on par with CPU, bandwidth, hard drive space, and RAM. That is, one can imagine the ultimate thin client in which a system designer consciously chooses a relatively slow CPU but a relatively strong 21 mining chip, using the bitcoin generated therein to purchase computation in the cloud.

Although I suspect by the time this vision gets close to becoming viable, the present hardware they've got on offer might be somewhat outdated.  It's almost as though they're selling a direction or a mindset, rather than a finished product.  They've got a long road ahead of them to reach that kind of outcome.  Still, I can see the potential if they can make it work.

Personally I don't see potential for this specific usage scenario, because it is based on irrational assumptions: Why would a customer that wants processing power pay extra for a strong mining chip to purchase cloud processing power in a second step, if he could just pass on the mining chip and instead invest the funds directly in a more powerful CPU? That makes no sense for the customer - it only makes sense for 21, because they can profit from a) higher profit margins by selling their own simple-to-design mining chips and saving money on low-margin third party CPU, b) profit from (exorbitant) pool fees of their mining customers, and possibly c) profit from offering/mediating cloud computing services matched with their products.

ya.ya.yo!

Ever heard of "on-demand"?

[brg444]

This is a pilot program, a devkit for developers, it is not aimed at mass production or consumers.

When will we get the next product and what will it be?

The next product won't be one you purchase, it will be embedded chips right into your computer, your cellphone, your IoT devices.

[Come-from-Beyond]

The next product won't be one you purchase, it will be embedded chips right into your computer, your cellphone, your IoT devices.

Sounds cool, any ETA?

[brg444]

$400 seems a little expensive for a modded RPi2?

also, can you buy this thing with bitcoin? no? well...

Wait, you can't buy it with bitcoin? For all they seem to be trying to promote bitcoin, that's pretty dumb...

You can purchase it with Bitcoin through Purse.io if you really want to.

https://twitter.com/PurseIO/status/646075586838814720

That's not the point, they should be accepting bitcoin directly through their site, not relying on a third party.

They address that here:

Why can't I buy the 21 Bitcoin Computer with BTC?
Patience - we will be adding support for this! However, the deeper answer is that we think payment in BTC is not as big an improvement at the present time over standard ways to purchase macroscopic physical goods. Offline currencies are fairly well adapted for that use case. We believe that where Bitcoin really shines is for micropayments, as a medium of exchange for digital goods and services.

https://21.co/faq/

[brg444]

The next product won't be one you purchase, it will be embedded chips right into your computer, your cellphone, your IoT devices.

Sounds cool, any ETA?

This is obviously a long term project, think 5-10 years

[sniveling]

I'd say this paragraph from the medium post sums up the aim most concisely:

Conceptually, we believe that embedded mining will ultimately establish bitcoin as a fundamental system resource on par with CPU, bandwidth, hard drive space, and RAM. That is, one can imagine the ultimate thin client in which a system designer consciously chooses a relatively slow CPU but a relatively strong 21 mining chip, using the bitcoin generated therein to purchase computation in the cloud.

Although I suspect by the time this vision gets close to becoming viable, the present hardware they've got on offer might be somewhat outdated.  It's almost as though they're selling a direction or a mindset, rather than a finished product.  They've got a long road ahead of them to reach that kind of outcome.  Still, I can see the potential if they can make it work.

Personally I don't see potential for this specific usage scenario, because it is based on irrational assumptions: Why would a customer that wants processing power pay extra for a strong mining chip to purchase cloud processing power in a second step, if he could just pass on the mining chip and instead invest the funds directly in a more powerful CPU? That makes no sense for the customer - it only makes sense for 21, because they can profit from a) higher profit margins by selling their own simple-to-design mining chips and saving money on low-margin third party CPU, b) profit from (exorbitant) pool fees of their mining customers, and possibly c) profit from offering/mediating cloud computing services matched with their products.

ya.ya.yo!

Ever heard of "on-demand"?

For on-demand to work efficiently from the cloud requires a good internet connection. People in remote areas still don't have that, and people on the move often have to rely on 3G/4G. 3G/4G connections depend on how close the nearest transmitter is, and are partially blocked by buildings, trees, and rain. That specific usage scenario of using mining chips and cloud computing services wouldn't work for anyone using 3G/4G with bad reception. People outside urban areas wouldn't buy into it because it would be unlikely to work for them.

[brg444]

I'd say this paragraph from the medium post sums up the aim most concisely:

Conceptually, we believe that embedded mining will ultimately establish bitcoin as a fundamental system resource on par with CPU, bandwidth, hard drive space, and RAM. That is, one can imagine the ultimate thin client in which a system designer consciously chooses a relatively slow CPU but a relatively strong 21 mining chip, using the bitcoin generated therein to purchase computation in the cloud.

Although I suspect by the time this vision gets close to becoming viable, the present hardware they've got on offer might be somewhat outdated.  It's almost as though they're selling a direction or a mindset, rather than a finished product.  They've got a long road ahead of them to reach that kind of outcome.  Still, I can see the potential if they can make it work.

Personally I don't see potential for this specific usage scenario, because it is based on irrational assumptions: Why would a customer that wants processing power pay extra for a strong mining chip to purchase cloud processing power in a second step, if he could just pass on the mining chip and instead invest the funds directly in a more powerful CPU? That makes no sense for the customer - it only makes sense for 21, because they can profit from a) higher profit margins by selling their own simple-to-design mining chips and saving money on low-margin third party CPU, b) profit from (exorbitant) pool fees of their mining customers, and possibly c) profit from offering/mediating cloud computing services matched with their products.

ya.ya.yo!

Ever heard of "on-demand"?

For on-demand to work efficiently from the cloud requires a good internet connection. People in remote areas still don't have that, and people on the move often have to rely on 3G/4G. 3G/4G connections depend on how close the nearest transmitter is, and are partially blocked by buildings, trees, and rain. That specific usage scenario of using mining chips and cloud computing services wouldn't work for anyone using 3G/4G with bad reception. People outside urban areas wouldn't buy into it because it would be unlikely to work for them.

Did you just pull up some outlier scenarios to justify whatever point you're trying to make?

[yayayo]

I'd say this paragraph from the medium post sums up the aim most concisely:

Conceptually, we believe that embedded mining will ultimately establish bitcoin as a fundamental system resource on par with CPU, bandwidth, hard drive space, and RAM. That is, one can imagine the ultimate thin client in which a system designer consciously chooses a relatively slow CPU but a relatively strong 21 mining chip, using the bitcoin generated therein to purchase computation in the cloud.

Although I suspect by the time this vision gets close to becoming viable, the present hardware they've got on offer might be somewhat outdated.  It's almost as though they're selling a direction or a mindset, rather than a finished product.  They've got a long road ahead of them to reach that kind of outcome.  Still, I can see the potential if they can make it work.

Personally I don't see potential for this specific usage scenario, because it is based on irrational assumptions: Why would a customer that wants processing power pay extra for a strong mining chip to purchase cloud processing power in a second step, if he could just pass on the mining chip and instead invest the funds directly in a more powerful CPU? That makes no sense for the customer - it only makes sense for 21, because they can profit from a) higher profit margins by selling their own simple-to-design mining chips and saving money on low-margin third party CPU, b) profit from (exorbitant) pool fees of their mining customers, and possibly c) profit from offering/mediating cloud computing services matched with their products.

ya.ya.yo!

Ever heard of "on-demand"?

On-demand doesn't invalidate the argument, because the customer still needs to pay for it.

If the CPU is so weak that the customer constantly needs external processing power for everyday activities, purchasing them through Bitcoin generated (minus fees) on another chip he has to pay for first is highly inefficient, so buying a more powerful CPU makes much more sense. If the bundled CPU is still so powerful that the customer rarely if ever needs external processing power - what is the point in paying for an additional mining chip?

I see some potential for 21's products by providing a machine-to-machine payment infrastructure that facilitates for example purchasing digital content. However I fail to see demand for the scenario mentioned.

ya.ya.yo!

[RoadStress]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/3lxrkg/all_the_comedy_gold_youll_need_to_know_about_from/

After months of suspense, the company finally revealed what market they were after:
Integrated Devices for the Internet of Things (IDIoTs).

Another proof that you are among one of them.

[monsanto]

Ok, here's what they can do: they're running a proprietary micropayments server so mocrotransactions won't all be directly on the blockchain. That will limit blockchain bloat but centralize payments, defeating the purpose of crypto. The interesting possibility is that they will pay you in bitcoin for running a full node, even if you aren't mining much or at all. How the economics of this business model works out is still a mystery.

Basically this computer is a hardware interface to their microtransaction server. It's a debit card that you plug into the wall. It would be stupid but this is a debit card your toaster can use. hmm. I guess that would still make it stupid.

Yeah this is what it sounds like to me, but maybe there's something here I'm not getting. If 21 centralizes microtransactions doesn't that defeat the point of bitcoin in the first place? wouldn't they increase their exposure to legal/security issues as well? I'm probably not understanding their complete plan here.

[brg444]

I'd say this paragraph from the medium post sums up the aim most concisely:

Conceptually, we believe that embedded mining will ultimately establish bitcoin as a fundamental system resource on par with CPU, bandwidth, hard drive space, and RAM. That is, one can imagine the ultimate thin client in which a system designer consciously chooses a relatively slow CPU but a relatively strong 21 mining chip, using the bitcoin generated therein to purchase computation in the cloud.

Although I suspect by the time this vision gets close to becoming viable, the present hardware they've got on offer might be somewhat outdated.  It's almost as though they're selling a direction or a mindset, rather than a finished product.  They've got a long road ahead of them to reach that kind of outcome.  Still, I can see the potential if they can make it work.

Personally I don't see potential for this specific usage scenario, because it is based on irrational assumptions: Why would a customer that wants processing power pay extra for a strong mining chip to purchase cloud processing power in a second step, if he could just pass on the mining chip and instead invest the funds directly in a more powerful CPU? That makes no sense for the customer - it only makes sense for 21, because they can profit from a) higher profit margins by selling their own simple-to-design mining chips and saving money on low-margin third party CPU, b) profit from (exorbitant) pool fees of their mining customers, and possibly c) profit from offering/mediating cloud computing services matched with their products.

ya.ya.yo!

Ever heard of "on-demand"?

On-demand doesn't invalidate the argument, because the customer still needs to pay for it.

If the CPU is so weak that the customer constantly needs external processing power for everyday activities, purchasing them through Bitcoin generated (minus fees) on another chip he has to pay for first is highly inefficient, so buying a more powerful CPU makes much more sense. If the bundled CPU is still so powerful that the customer rarely if ever needs external processing power - what is the point in paying for an additional mining chip?

I see some potential for 21's products by providing a machine-to-machine payment infrastructure that facilitates for example purchasing digital content. However I fail to see demand for the scenario mentioned.

ya.ya.yo!

So you don't see the potential for a marketplace of idle computer resources (or bandwidth) pooled together and available on demand....?

This is absolutely not about purchasing the resources using the bitcoins mined from the chip but enabling interoperability between all these devices so that they can communicate together using the Bitcoin protocol.

[brg444]

Ok, here's what they can do: they're running a proprietary micropayments server so mocrotransactions won't all be directly on the blockchain. That will limit blockchain bloat but centralize payments, defeating the purpose of crypto. The interesting possibility is that they will pay you in bitcoin for running a full node, even if you aren't mining much or at all. How the economics of this business model works out is still a mystery.

Basically this computer is a hardware interface to their microtransaction server. It's a debit card that you plug into the wall. It would be stupid but this is a debit card your toaster can use. hmm. I guess that would still make it stupid.

Yeah this is what it sounds like to me, but maybe there's something here I'm not getting. If 21 centralizes microtransactions doesn't that defeat the point of bitcoin in the first place? wouldn't they increase their exposure to legal/security issues as well? I'm probably not understanding their complete plan here.

The transactions will still be settled on the blockchain ultimately. There is a reason why we cannot fit millions of micro/nano transactions on the blockchain. Some additional trust is required to make these use cases valid. 21inc sound like people I would trust with the small amounts concerned when we speak of microtransactions.

Do you really need to leverage the full security and decentralization of the Bitcoin blockchain for fractions of dollars?

[Come-from-Beyond]

There is a reason why we cannot fit millions of micro/nano transactions on the blockchain.

What is this reason?

[cakir]

There is a reason why we cannot fit millions of micro/nano transactions on the blockchain.

What is this reason?

Probably he's talking about spam tx'es. AFAIK they're not allowed. Min tx was 5430 satoshi, I don't know if it's now lower or not.

[adamstgBit]

There is a reason why we cannot fit millions of micro/nano transactions on the blockchain.

What is this reason?

makes for a lot of communications between nodes
makes blocks full
increases size of the blockchain
full nodes
bla bla bla

[brg444]

There is a reason why we cannot fit millions of micro/nano transactions on the blockchain.

What is this reason?

Did we already forget the blocksize debate?  

The reasons are quite obvious... the Bitcoin protocol is not efficient enough to process these.

Even if it was the average transaction fee is larger than what you'd consider microtransactions (you cannot send satoshi using the blockchain right now)

[odolvlobo]

With regard to mining, you are better off buying two Antminer U3s for $40 instead a 21 device for $400.

[brg444]

With regard to mining, you are better off buying two Antminer U3s for $40 instead a 21 device for $400.

 

Good thing the point of these device is absolutely not to earn revenue through mining subsidy

[Come-from-Beyond]

Good thing the point of these device is absolutely not to earn revenue through mining subsidy

The description of 21 Bitcoin Computer lacks solid vision of its purpose, maybe you could explain what IT-industry niche this device will shine in?

[brg444]

Good thing the point of these device is absolutely not to earn revenue through mining subsidy

The description of 21 Bitcoin Computer lacks solid vision of its purpose, maybe you could explain what IT-industry niche this device will shine in?

The Bitcoin Computer is a dev kit. A prototype for engineers and developers to tinker with and develop future use cases. The possibilities are endless, 21inc is concerned with creating the tools to enable these use cases.

I thought this article did a good job of explaining what these could be...
https://medium.com/@21dotco/a-bitcoin-miner-in-every-device-and-in-every-hand-e315b40f2821