[To Theymos] Why was Goat banned?

[smoothie]

I noticed Goat claims he is banned and he put on his profile that you "censored" him.

I just wanted to know why.

Thanks

 

Smoothie

[1714802429]

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[MiloSmith]

The censorship is getting absolutely out of control, you need to be aware that by posting this question you are at risk of being banned.

Check out here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=118154.0

User Rarity was banned for criticizing Theymos.  Dancing Dan posted a thread asking for discussion about this and was banned for it as well.  The Iron Curtain is falling on Bitcointalk, we must all watch what we say around Dear Leader Theymos and his Central Committee of yes-men.  If I stop posting on these forums soon, it means I was banned for pointing this out too.

[smoothie]

The censorship is getting absolutely out of control, you need to be aware that by posting this question you are at risk of being banned.

Check out here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=118154.0

User Rarity was banned for criticizing Theymos.  Dancing Dan posted a thread asking for discussion about this and was banned for it as well.  The Iron Curtain is falling on Bitcointalk, we must all watch what we say.  If I stop posting on these forums soon, it means I was banned for pointing this out too.

It's just a question. He doesn't have to answer. Just figured to ask before assuming.

[juggalodarkclow]

apparently he couldn't behave himself

[smoothie]

apparently he couldn't behave himself

ROFL!!!!

[repentance]

God knows Goat isn't one of my favourite posters, but I'd also like an answer as to why he was banned and whether that ban is permanent (can we please start referring to 7 day time-outs as suspensions).

I don't think that people should be able to "clean up" their threads and remove evidence of what they've previously posted in the way that usagi did, so if this has something to do with Goat removing content from the OP in his Securities thread then I'm OK with that.  But if that's the case then can we please have a public statement saying that people will no longer be allowed to do that (a policy which I believe is much needed) and will be banned if they edit their threads in a manner which either deletes their posts or which revises their posts in a manner which obscures what they originally posted?

[theymos]

I decided that he harms discussions too much to be allowed to continue. He posts more than Atlas and his posts are of lower quality. When he argues about something, he ignores all of the arguments of his opponents and just repeats the same nonsense over and over. I suspect that he may be intentionally trying to stir up drama in order to hurt the forum and the community.

The ban will not expire automatically. I may review it later.

[BCB]

theymos if that's the criteria could I give you a list of about a dozen other users who should also be banned for the same reason.

And what value is Atlas adding to the conversation??

[smoothie]

I decided that he harms discussions too much to be allowed to continue. He posts more than Atlas and his posts are of lower quality. When he argues about something, he ignores all of the arguments of his opponents and just repeats the same nonsense over and over. I suspect that he may be intentionally trying to stir up drama in order to hurt the forum and the community.

The ban will not expire automatically. I may review it later.

Thanks for answering Theymos. Appreciated! 

[SaltySpitoon]

theymos if that's the criteria could I give you a list of about a dozen other users who should also be banned for the same reason.

And what value is Atlas adding to the conversation??

If you sit back and read over his posts, they are comedy gold. Good stress relief.

[theymos]

theymos if that's the criteria could I give you a list of about a dozen other users who should also be banned for the same reason.

Send me specific examples.

[BCB]

theymos if that's the criteria could I give you a list of about a dozen other users who should also be banned for the same reason.

Send me specific examples.

TLDR: Nobody should be dependent on the work of anybody in the Bitcoin community.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=119525.msg1288788#msg1288788

That is patiently not true. I know no one on the dev team but with out their work and their continued efforts to refine the core client this project would be dead.

If just just for his incessant, relentless and baseless attacks of the dev team and the sensational thread titles he should be banned.  His conversations add no value and if he id  making valid points know one would know because no one reads his posts.

Atlas is in no adding in any valuable way to the conversations taking place on bitcointalk.

[BCB]

theymos if that's the criteria could I give you a list of about a dozen other users who should also be banned for the same reason.

Send me specific examples.

NYPD: I'll break your fucking arm then punch you in the face before I arrest...

He could write headlines for the NY POST or Huffington Post but what value do these posts ad to bitcoin talk.

Please anyone (except ATLAS or any of his sockpuppets) please disagree with me.

[theymos]

TLDR: Nobody should be dependent on the work of anybody in the Bitcoin community.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=119525.msg1288788#msg1288788

That is patiently not true. I know no one on the dev team but with out their work and their continued efforts to refine the core client this project would be dead.

If just just for his incessant, relentless and baseless attacks of the dev team and the sensational thread titles he should be banned.  His conversations add no value and if he id  making valid points know one would know because no one reads his posts.

Atlas is in no adding in any valuable way to the conversations taking place on bitcointalk.

Atlas says a lot of stupid things, but I think that he tries to argue reasonably. He's not trying to be disruptive, and I think that he's recently not been too disruptive. His posts are often annoying, but they sometimes have decent points that are fun to talk about; in fact, several of my recent posts are responses to Atlas.

[BCB]

TLDR: Nobody should be dependent on the work of anybody in the Bitcoin community.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=119525.msg1288788#msg1288788

That is patiently not true. I know no one on the dev team but with out their work and their continued efforts to refine the core client this project would be dead.

If just just for his incessant, relentless and baseless attacks of the dev team and the sensational thread titles he should be banned.  His conversations add no value and if he id  making valid points know one would know because no one reads his posts.

Atlas is in no adding in any valuable way to the conversations taking place on bitcointalk.

Atlas says a lot of stupid things, but I think that he tries to argue reasonably. He's not trying to be disruptive, and I think that he's recently not been too disruptive. His posts are often annoying, but they sometimes have decent points that are fun to talk about; in fact, several of my recent posts are responses to Atlas.

Your kidding right??

Maybe the two of you could take over to AIM if you are so simpatico.

Does anyone else really think Atlas adds to the conversation?

[ChrisKoss]

I decided that he harms discussions too much to be allowed to continue. He posts more than Atlas and his posts are of lower quality. When he argues about something, he ignores all of the arguments of his opponents and just repeats the same nonsense over and over. I suspect that he may be intentionally trying to stir up drama in order to hurt the forum and the community.

The ban will not expire automatically. I may review it later.

I support this decision and hope to see more like it.  

Goat was becoming increasingly belligerent after being delisted from GLBSE.  He wasn't discussing anything anymore, just restating the same points over and over.  When he was criticized, he would resort to legal threats (not based on a strong grasp of the law, mind you). Plus, he's run several failed investment products, costing the readers of this forum tens of thousands of Bitcoins, if not more.  For me, he symbolizes Bitcoin last year.  

It's time for us to move on to the new Bitcoin: respectful, legitimate, honest, productive.

From the Bitcoin "financial collapse", with so many people losing money to Pirate, funds frozen in GLBSE, etc., Bitcoiners are becoming more discerning about where they put their coin.  Caution and prudence with investment is good: I think this is a positive change. I would welcome a similar elevation of the level of discourse on this forum.  

People who lead a thread off topic should be warned.  If they do it repeatedly, they should be banned.  There is too much clutter here, and the ones who are cluttering rarely add anything of value to the conversation.  

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=119525.msg1288788#msg1288788

Atlas is a major thread-derailer.  I was thinking of this example before I saw that you posted it.  

I wouldn't mind if he created a new topic, linked to it in the original thread with a short summary, and continued discussion in the new thread, but I've never seen him do that.  I think he's a net detractor for the forums, and think a ban would be a step in the right direction.  (Happy to see change too, but I think history indicates this is unlikely).  

If he could keep his Randian FUDmongering to "Off-topic" and "Politics and Society", I wouldn't mind him staying.  It's just frustrating to see a page full of core-devs and other great Bitcoiners like Casascius discussing something interesting and then getting distracted by his pointless, stubborn, unsubstantiated complaints.

EDIT: Atlas actually just made a pretty good thread.  I optimistically retract my ban suggestion. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=119885.msg1291504#msg1291504

[BCB]

ChrisKoss

That is my point exactly.  Thread derailing.  I have been part of a number of threads as a participant and a reader where information is being conveyed, questions are being asked and answered and a genuine dialogue amongst and between the user is occurring.  Then depending on the time of day and/or how long the thread has been active their are about 6 -12 users (all with orange ignore buttons by the way - you all know who they are) who have absolutely nothing to add to dialogue, picking fights, insulting and generally just taking a dump in the middle of the party and it pretty much down hill from there.

It is really unfortunate.

[niko]

I decided that he harms discussions too much to be allowed to continue. He posts more than Atlas and his posts are of lower quality. When he argues about something, he ignores all of the arguments of his opponents and just repeats the same nonsense over and over. I suspect that he may be intentionally trying to stir up drama in order to hurt the forum and the community.

The ban will not expire automatically. I may review it later.

Glad to read this.

[BadBear]

Goat's gone off the deep end lately, you can't reason with him at all. Warnings won't work he'll just troll about that too.

He needed a break from the forums.

[BCB]

BadBear

I don't follow goats posts but I hear and BELIEVE what you are saying.  I think Phinn when through a phase like that too a while back during the initial pirate witch hunt.   I think some of my eventually need  a 12-step program to be able to step away from bitcoin (I'm not kidding).

[smoothie]

BadBear

I don't follow goats posts but I hear and BELIEVE what you are saying.  I think Phinn when through a phase like that too a while back during the initial pirate witch hunt.   I think some of my eventually need  a 12-step program to be able to step away from bitcoin (I'm not kidding).

Bitcoin is like a drug....JUSSSSS GOTTTAAAH  HAAAAV ITTTTT! 

[BCB]

PLEASE BAN SMOOTHIE

His ignore button can't possible get any darker.

[smoothie]

PLEASE BAN SMOOTHIE

His ignore button can't possible get any darker.

Oh on grounds of what?

I've been good. I have been adding meaningful content and even giving people credit for things they prove to be true (i.e. Goat not running with the money he was sent by users).

 

P.S. Perhaps we can get you banned for trying to be the goodie-two-shoes who is asking for people to be banned without good reasons?? I'm for it! LOL!

[BCB]

For using BOLD BLUE TEXT and too many emoticons for starters....

[2112]

EDIT: Atlas actually just made a pretty good thread.  I optimistically retract my ban suggestion. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=119885.msg1291504#msg1291504

Acording to the above-mentioned thread Atlas has had self-imposed a ban on himself.

I will not questions things any further. I submit. I am gone.

[repentance]

Acording to the above-mentioned thread Atlas has had self-imposed a ban on himself.

I will not questions things any further. I submit. I am gone.

Like Atlas has never done that before.

[Ryland R. Taylor-Almanza]

PLEASE BAN SMOOTHIE

His ignore button can't possible get any darker.

Hi, I'm smoothie's biggest fan!

[DiCE1904]

I am also very glad to see this. I got very tired of seeing Goat start pointless fights and ruin threads.

He wasn't discussing anything anymore, just restating the same points over and over. 

agreed

[cryptoanarchist]

Can Theymos please point out what post by Goat was worthy of a permanent ban? I just red through his last posts and saw nothing deserving of that.

[Transisto]

Atlas does add to the discussion once every 300 post,

[Beans]

The censorship is getting absolutely out of control, you need to be aware that by posting this question you are at risk of being banned.

Check out here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=118154.0

User Rarity was banned for criticizing Theymos.  Dancing Dan posted a thread asking for discussion about this and was banned for it as well.  The Iron Curtain is falling on Bitcointalk, we must all watch what we say around Dear Leader Theymos and his Central Committee of yes-men.  If I stop posting on these forums soon, it means I was banned for pointing this out too.

Seriously? Rarity was spamming garbage all over the place. Other then EskimoBob, Rarity would be my top pick. All the coins goat scammed on pirates behalf should have got him banned in my opinion. He's definitely been acting arrogant since the default. I don't keep up with all his ramblings, but I don't see what he's contributed to this community. He mainly just causes drama and trolls glbse threads.

[greyhawk]

EDIT: Atlas actually just made a pretty good thread.  I optimistically retract my ban suggestion. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=119885.msg1291504#msg1291504

Acording to the above-mentioned thread Atlas has had self-imposed a ban on himself.

I will not questions things any further. I submit. I am gone.

Yeah, we've been there before. Expect a Atlas suicide threat thread in about 12 hours.

[caffeinewriter]

theymos if that's the criteria could I give you a list of about a dozen other users who should also be banned for the same reason.

And what value is Atlas adding to the conversation??

Or Maria. Or those noobs that only post "cool" five times for their minimum posts.

[riX]

I'm not against banning people in general, but I think there should be predefined forum rules, and all bans or other actions should be according to those.
Also, when a ban is set, the responsible mod/admin should post stating that he banned some user and which rule was broken.

One rule could definitely be "All posts should have content of high quality." (I don't know if this applies to goat).

[Ente]

I decided that he harms discussions too much to be allowed to continue. He posts more than Atlas and his posts are of lower quality. When he argues about something, he ignores all of the arguments of his opponents and just repeats the same nonsense over and over. I suspect that he may be intentionally trying to stir up drama in order to hurt the forum and the community.

The ban will not expire automatically. I may review it later.

I am disappointed.
This is a horrible reason to ban someone.

I had goat on ignore since a while. Problem solved for me.
Atlas derails threads? Then too many people still read him. If they don't ignore him, they obviously are not interested in removing him from the forum altogether.

I already abandoned a forum as a senior member when censorship started.. I am worried and pretty surprised.. Here, in my Bitcoin forum? Really?

Ente

[repentance]

One rule could definitely be "All posts should have content of high quality." (I don't know if this applies to goat).

That's an incredibly subjective benchmark, especially on a forum whose first principal is free speech.

A lot of possible solutions require a fair bit of active moderation.  Splitting derailed threads works well of you can do it quickly enough.  You can split and lock the derailment and send it to some wasteland forum, but you need to be able to catch the derailment when it first happens otherwise it's a pain in the ass to do it manually once you've got a couple of pages of legitimate posts interspersed with derailing posts.

[Raoul Duke]

Also, when a ban is set, the responsible mod/admin should post stating that he banned some user and which rule was broken.

lolwut
You're not a member in many forums, I see... On 90% of the forums I have an account with they ban anyone who just asks why someone else was banned. They don't even get the chance to question the reasons, unlike here, where it seems to be an habit to start a shitstorm because someone else was banned.
Moderators and Administrators owe you no explanation for their decisions or actions when those decisions and actions don't affect you, even if you think they do owe you something.
No one forced you to register, and if you don't like to be here no one forces you to stay. Just press the logout button and go.

[Ente]

1) Set clear rules about when and for how long to halt/ban someone

2) Have one central thread where each case is announced (and except that the thread stays locked)

This is the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM. Of course then I still don't like that (in my opinion) baseless banning. But these two points at least set you one step above despotism.

3)

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

Ente

[Ente]

Also, when a ban is set, the responsible mod/admin should post stating that he banned some user and which rule was broken.

lolwut
You're not a member in many forums, I see... On 90% of the forums I have an account with they ban anyone who just asks why someone else was banned. They don't even get the chance to question the reasons, unlike here, where it seems to be an habit to start a shitstorm because someone else was banned.
Moderators and Administrators owe you no explanation for their decisions or actions when those decisions and actions don't affect you, even if you think they do owe you something.
No one forced you to register, and if you don't like to be here no one forces you to stay. Just press the logout button and go.

..glad you are no mod then.

Ente

[Raoul Duke]

Also, when a ban is set, the responsible mod/admin should post stating that he banned some user and which rule was broken.

lolwut
You're not a member in many forums, I see... On 90% of the forums I have an account with they ban anyone who just asks why someone else was banned. They don't even get the chance to question the reasons, unlike here, where it seems to be an habit to start a shitstorm because someone else was banned.
Moderators and Administrators owe you no explanation for their decisions or actions when those decisions and actions don't affect you, even if you think they do owe you something.
No one forced you to register, and if you don't like to be here no one forces you to stay. Just press the logout button and go.

..glad you are no mod then.

Ente

errrmmm... yes, I am...
And the only persons I owe explanations for my actions as a Janitor are Administrators and maybe Global Moderators.

[Este Nuno]

..glad you are no mod then.

Ente

He is a mod, and seems to do a decent if not good job since I've not seen any problems at all under him and ThiagoCMC.

[Este Nuno]

And I guess I might as well register my disappointment with Goat being banned.

As a passive observer I have definitely noticed him adding a lot to the forum with all his business ideas and such. Which mostly have not seemed to work out, but have not resulted in him directly scamming anyone(as far as I know anyway). I guess the counter argument to this is that this forum is not meant to be a constant source of drama/entertainment, despite that clearly being the case.

A lot of people clearly just can not stand him at all. Smoothie(OP) being an obvious outspoken Anti-Goatite. I don't really understand why people tend to have such strong reactions to him, like Nefario blowing up and delisting him, and now Theymos doing this. I can only assume there are things going on behind the scenes that I'm simply not aware of.

So I guess I would prefer Goat not to be banned, but if there's more to it than I can see I guess there's not much to say.

[BadBear]

Having all bans/suspensions automatically publicized isn't a very good idea. You're thinking in terms of accountability, but completely forgetting about people's privacy in the process. If poster x gets a week off for posting My Little Pony porn, do you really think that's any of your or anyone else's business? If the poster chooses to make it public that's fine. But that's his choice to make, not yours. 

[Ente]

Having all bans/suspensions automatically publicized isn't a very good idea. You're thinking in terms of accountability, but completely forgetting about people's privacy in the process. If poster x gets a week off for posting My Little Pony porn, do you really think that's any of your or anyone else's business? If the poster chooses to make it public that's fine. But that's his choice to make, not yours. 

I see your point.
Of course it isn't that easy to make anything public once you're banned..
Well, maybe create a subforum "drama and banned" or the like, where anyone may post? Banned people, non-registered people, you name it. This will be hell of a shityard. And, when that is installed, move everything there which belongs there! :-)

Also, when a ban is set, the responsible mod/admin should post stating that he banned some user and which rule was broken.

lolwut
You're not a member in many forums, I see... On 90% of the forums I have an account with they ban anyone who just asks why someone else was banned. They don't even get the chance to question the reasons, unlike here, where it seems to be an habit to start a shitstorm because someone else was banned.
Moderators and Administrators owe you no explanation for their decisions or actions when those decisions and actions don't affect you, even if you think they do owe you something.
No one forced you to register, and if you don't like to be here no one forces you to stay. Just press the logout button and go.

..glad you are no mod then.

Ente

errrmmm... yes, I am...
And the only persons I owe explanations for my actions as a Janitor are Administrators and maybe Global Moderators.

"Other forums are worse" is a bad reason to do something bad.. ;-)
Seems like you do a better job than other forums then. Good!

Ente

[riX]

Also, when a ban is set, the responsible mod/admin should post stating that he banned some user and which rule was broken.

lolwut
You're not a member in many forums, I see... On 90% of the forums I have an account with they ban anyone who just asks why someone else was banned. They don't even get the chance to question the reasons, unlike here, where it seems to be an habit to start a shitstorm because someone else was banned.
Moderators and Administrators owe you no explanation for their decisions or actions when those decisions and actions don't affect you, even if you think they do owe you something.
No one forced you to register, and if you don't like to be here no one forces you to stay. Just press the logout button and go.

This affects me in the way that I'm now aware of one of the unwritten rules which might get me banned if I don't follow it.
If you think that suggesting forum improvements is a sign of me wanting to quit being here, maybe this place is to intellectual for you, and you should hang more on those other 9 forums you have accounts with.

Having all bans/suspensions automatically publicized isn't a very good idea. You're thinking in terms of accountability, but completely forgetting about people's privacy in the process. If poster x gets a week off for posting My Little Pony porn, do you really think that's any of your or anyone else's business? If the poster chooses to make it public that's fine. But that's his choice to make, not yours.

You wouldn't have to state the exact reason, just that something like "user x is banned for y days for breaking rule 4.1".
If users don't know the rules, it's impossible to follow them.
The same rules should apply to everyone, and in my opinion there are both people who deserve to be banned both more and less than goat, if the ban reason was "He wasn't discussing anything anymore, just restating the same points over and over."

[muyuu]

Having all bans/suspensions automatically publicized isn't a very good idea. You're thinking in terms of accountability, but completely forgetting about people's privacy in the process. If poster x gets a week off for posting My Little Pony porn, do you really think that's any of your or anyone else's business? If the poster chooses to make it public that's fine. But that's his choice to make, not yours. 

Must remember to google that when I'm home.

[AndrewBUD]

theymos if that's the criteria could I give you a list of about a dozen other users who should also be banned for the same reason.

And what value is Atlas adding to the conversation??

a good majority of the members here should be banned if that's the case... What happened to free speech? If people don't want to read what he has to say the ignore button is very easy to use.

[deeplink]

It's time for us to move on to the new Bitcoin: respectful, legitimate, honest, productive.

Legitimate is not necessary, as long as the rest, with which I absolutely agree, is being honored.

I reject recent actions (or the lack thereof) and decisions of some operators on this forum. They are too out of whack with my beliefs and due to this I no longer want to be advocating support of this forum. In that light I have decided to ask for my Donator tag to be removed.

People are free to have their own opinion and act according to them. I appreciate that, I am very open and enjoy reading other opinions. But I am feeling very uneasy when advocating support for people or an operation when several lines have been crossed in respect to my own opinions.

I have already openly considered asking for my Donator tag to be removed during the begins of the GLBSE disaster. This thread has made clear to me that this is no longer only a consideration.

Theymos, please respect my wish and remove my Donator status

Keep the money I donated and please use it to compensate customers of GLBSE.

PM to Theymos sent

[davout]

theymos if that's the criteria could I give you a list of about a dozen other users who should also be banned for the same reason.

And what value is Atlas adding to the conversation??

a good majority of the members here should be banned if that's the case... What happened to free speech? If people don't want to read what he has to say the ignore button is very easy to use.

This

[AndrewBUD]

It's time for us to move on to the new Bitcoin: respectful, legitimate, honest, productive.

Legitimate is not necessary, as long as the rest, with which I absolutely agree, is being honored.

I reject recent actions (or the lack thereof) and decisions of some operators on this forum. They are too out of whack with my beliefs and due to this I no longer want to be advocating support of this forum. In that light I have decided to ask for my Donator tag to be removed.

People are free to have their own opinion and act according to them. I appreciate that, I am very open and enjoy reading other opinions. But I am feeling very uneasy when advocating support for people or an operation when several lines have been crossed in respect to my own opinions.

I have already openly considered asking for my Donator tag to be removed during the begins of the GLBSE disaster. This thread has made clear to me that this is no longer only a consideration.

Theymos, please respect my wish and remove my Donator status

Keep the money I donated and please use it to compensate customers of GLBSE.

PM to Theymos sent

Now people are ashamed to be a donator.. wow

[2112]

So I guess I would prefer Goat not to be banned, but if there's more to it than I can see I guess there's not much to say.

I think the "more to it that I can see" is simply that you have more patience for monotone and repeated speech than the most of other people.

I also found Goat,Rarity,bulanula,etc... entertaining to a certain degree. Even I would call them somewhat educational, in a "special education" way of learning how to deal with difficult people.

But the common thing amongst all of them was that they pretended to be idiots so well, that it was getting impossible to distinguish them from the actual idiots.

I think that sufficient condition for not getting banned here is simply to show ability to get influenced by the responses to ones own posts. Basically show a show of comprehension and an ability to change.

[Raoul Duke]

Also, when a ban is set, the responsible mod/admin should post stating that he banned some user and which rule was broken.

lolwut
You're not a member in many forums, I see... On 90% of the forums I have an account with they ban anyone who just asks why someone else was banned. They don't even get the chance to question the reasons, unlike here, where it seems to be an habit to start a shitstorm because someone else was banned.
Moderators and Administrators owe you no explanation for their decisions or actions when those decisions and actions don't affect you, even if you think they do owe you something.
No one forced you to register, and if you don't like to be here no one forces you to stay. Just press the logout button and go.

This affects me in the way that I'm now aware of one of the unwritten rules which might get me banned if I don't follow it.
If you think that suggesting forum improvements is a sign of me wanting to quit being here, maybe this place is to intellectual for you, and you should hang more on those other 9 forums you have accounts with.

Having all bans/suspensions automatically publicized isn't a very good idea. You're thinking in terms of accountability, but completely forgetting about people's privacy in the process. If poster x gets a week off for posting My Little Pony porn, do you really think that's any of your or anyone else's business? If the poster chooses to make it public that's fine. But that's his choice to make, not yours.

You wouldn't have to state the exact reason, just that something like "user x is banned for y days for breaking rule 4.1".
If users don't know the rules, it's impossible to follow them.
The same rules should apply to everyone, and in my opinion there are both people who deserve to be banned both more and less than goat, if the ban reason was "He wasn't discussing anything anymore, just restating the same points over and over."

Sorry, can't agree with you.
If someone is banned, that's between them and the admins.
If a moderator does something you don't like or agree with, PM him or an administrator. Creating a thread about it is unnecessary drama and very fucked up. Or maybe it's not unnecessary drama because it looks like you guys can't live without it. If a week goes by and someones money wasn't stolen there needs to be something else to entertain the plebe. Most of the time is picking up on Moderators and Admins.

Give it a break.
The true rules at any forum are: you piss off the admins, you get banned. Deal with it.

[muyuu]

I may donate again to even it out 

[greyhawk]

Whatever you do as mod/admin you're fucked. If you ban, people shout at you, and if you don't ban, other people shout at you. As mod/admin it's a lose-lose situation. In this respect this forum is exactly like all others.

[Raoul Duke]

Whatever you do as mod/admin you're fucked. If you ban, people shout at you, and if you don't ban, other people shout at you. As mod/admin it's a lose-lose situation. In this respect this forum is exactly like all others.

Except in other forums you get banned for questioning how things are.
The permissive attitude around here feels very good, but... being here is a privilege, not a right. The sooner everyone understands this, the better.

[LoupGaroux]

Item 1: There is no presumption of free speech on a forum, unless and only if free speech is an enumerated rule of the board. Other than that it is a private discussion arena that has rules and policies that are governed and controlled by the arbitrary decisions of those that are in the position to moderate. There is no Bill of Rights that applies. There are standards of courtesy, but these are just courtesy and not binding rules, and can be changed at will by administration, because that is the very nature of their position.

Item 2: All Admins and Moderators have agendas, and often those agendas will be at odds with your thoughts or agendas. In this case a user has gone full tilt at various Authorities, but has done so without any concept of discussion or debate but with the intent to complain and hurl abuse and threats. If Goat had actually participated in a discussion, or presented his thoughts or even his outrage in a civil manner and then defended his feelings he would probably still be here cranking out posts at the rate of three per minute. Instead, he merely repeated the same bizarre ramblings and insults time and time again without displaying the slightest ability to learn from the conversation. As such he is functionally unable to participate in a conversation and the conversation losses nothing by his removal from it.

Item 3: Patience and Questioning Authority. Sorry kids, but this is not a constitutionally organized playground, and the rules are as fluid as the morals of the folks here. Administration was abundantly patient in this case (almost 5,000 posts worth of patient!) and yet one user refused to add anything meaningful to the conversation. There are plenty of others, including myself, who have challenged the GLBSE/BitcoinGlobal ownership group in the matters of the past several weeks, who have not been banned, suspended or warned. Our criticism has been constructive and part of the on-going dialog, and as such has been a valuable contribution as the bitcoin community feels it way through the minefield of business responsibility, trust and integrity. Demanding answers as to why another user has been banned is not germane to the discussion, and probably the outrage is better reserved for a private message to the Admins if your curiosity is really that great. If it is more of a matter of wanting to stir up shit and make a production to advance your side of a discussion, post your own thoughts in a thread of your own, don't use tired and inappropriate censorship dogma. Hitching your wagon to a sinking ship is just not effective.

[BadBear]

You wouldn't have to state the exact reason, just that something like "user x is banned for y days for breaking rule 4.1".

Doesn't really change anything, I don't want to name and shame anyone, or humiliate anyone, that's not the point. It's nobody else's business, and it's their choice.

theymos if that's the criteria could I give you a list of about a dozen other users who should also be banned for the same reason.

And what value is Atlas adding to the conversation??

a good majority of the members here should be banned if that's the case... What happened to free speech? If people don't want to read what he has to say the ignore button is very easy to use.

Not a good majority, just a select few, whoever mentioned Rarity and Bulanula was right on the money.

The only thing we're guilty of is being too lenient in dealing with trolls, and that's probably going to change, at least for the near future. This forum is better off without folks like them and Goat. Free speech is great and something I try to protect, but some people abuse it in order to troll and play the martyr card in hopes of not getting banned. I refuse to protect trolls based on what or who they're attacking any longer.

Whatever you do as mod/admin you're fucked. If you ban, people shout at you, and if you don't ban, other people shout at you. As mod/admin it's a lose-lose situation. In this respect this forum is exactly like all others.

Pretty much. Can't please everybody.

Item 1: There is no presumption of free speech on a forum, unless and only if free speech is an enumerated rule of the board. Other than that it is a private discussion arena that has rules and policies that are governed and controlled by the arbitrary decisions of those that are in the position to moderate. There is no Bill of Rights that applies. There are standards of courtesy, but these are just courtesy and not binding rules, and can be changed at will by administration, because that is the very nature of their position.

Item 2: All Admins and Moderators have agendas, and often those agendas will be at odds with your thoughts or agendas. In this case a user has gone full tilt at various Authorities, but has done so without any concept of discussion or debate but with the intent to complain and hurl abuse and threats. If Goat had actually participated in a discussion, or presented his thoughts or even his outrage in a civil manner and then defended his feelings he would probably still be here cranking out posts at the rate of three per minute. Instead, he merely repeated the same bizarre ramblings and insults time and time again without displaying the slightest ability to learn from the conversation. As such he is functionally unable to participate in a conversation and the conversation losses nothing by his removal from it.

Item 3: Patience and Questioning Authority. Sorry kids, but this is not a constitutionally organized playground, and the rules are as fluid as the morals of the folks here. Administration was abundantly patient in this case (almost 5,000 posts worth of patient!) and yet one user refused to add anything meaningful to the conversation. There are plenty of others, including myself, who have challenged the GLBSE/BitcoinGlobal ownership group in the matters of the past several weeks, who have not been banned, suspended or warned. Our criticism has been constructive and part of the on-going dialog, and as such has been a valuable contribution as the bitcoin community feels it way through the minefield of business responsibility, trust and integrity. Demanding answers as to why another user has been banned is not germane to the discussion, and probably the outrage is better reserved for a private message to the Admins if your curiosity is really that great. If it is more of a matter of wanting to stir up shit and make a production to advance your side of a discussion, post your own thoughts in a thread of your own, don't use tired and inappropriate censorship dogma. Hitching your wagon to a sinking ship is just not effective.

And a great big +1 to this post. It's become pretty clear over the past couple of months Goat had no intention of actually having a discussion.

[Serenata]

1) Set clear rules about when and for how long to halt/ban someone

2) Have one central thread where each case is announced (and except that the thread stays locked)

This is the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM. Of course then I still don't like that (in my opinion) baseless banning. But these two points at least set you one step above despotism.

3)

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

Ente

I agree and would like to add:

- Allow editing of own posts within 300 seconds of posting. After that no editing should be allowed.
- Consider a system of auto-banning when a member is ignored by more than X other members. The ban can auto-expire and re-engage if the person gets banned by more X members.

[AndrewBUD]

I don't think banning according to how many ignores you have...... Possibly a feature that auto-hides posts of users with tons of ignores like an above poster mentioned.

[cryptoanarchist]

This forum has gone to shit. I'm outta here.

[Serenata]

I don't think banning according to how many ignores you have...... Possibly a feature that auto-hides posts of users with tons of ignores like an above poster mentioned.

Even better (sorry I missed that being mentioned).

[Maged]

Honestly, this surprises me. Maybe I just haven't read many Goat threads, but, where has he been actively disruptive? Are there deleted posts recently that I'm just not seeing?

I do agree that Goat isn't the greatest person on this forum, but he shouldn't be banned permanently just for that. Not to mention, he's tied up pretty deeply in both the Pirate situation and GLBSE. Has he ever received a warning ban? I know that he's been warned plenty of times, but was he ever banned for a few days?

When you perma-banned Rarity for the same reason, I thought "Ok, Rarity has never really contributed much and I don't see much of a future for him here. I guess perma-ban is acceptable". But I really don't think that is the case here. Theymos, you're really starting to get a little heavy on the banhammer. What happened to the Theymos that we'd beg to have perma-ban someone but would absolutely do nothing more than a few day ban for the first request? Speaking of requests, you didn't mention this ban at all in the Staff forum. When you ban someone fairly high-profile without a request from a staff member, please at least have the courtesy to inform us moderators.

[repentance]

Honestly, this surprises me. Maybe I just haven't read many Goat threads, but, where has he been actively disruptive? Are there deleted posts recently that I'm just not seeing?

Goat was arguing that Nefario shouldn't have been given the scammer tag for the reasons it was given (he thought it should have been given for other reasons).  He did seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing a lot lately, but the forum membership's going to drop dramatically if we start banning everyone who does that occasionally.

I'm not sure how much of his business Goat conducted off-board, but I hope that anyone who's dependent on the records he holds in relation to pirate and GLBSE has another way to communicate with him.

[fishface]

Yeah, I strongly dislike goat but don't support him being banned. Unless he is trying to scam or promote further ponzies, a ban isn't justified IMO.

[OgNasty]

Goat ran a mining company on GLBSE and didn't even have any equipment to mine coins!  I've long suspected that all of his other half dozen GLBSE listings were similar fake businesses setup to put more BTC in his BTCST account.  On top of that, Goat's recent posts have all been suggesting that users sue Theymos and the other GLBSE owners.  

[Monster Tent]

I dont think people should be banned unless they are promoting something illegal or threatening other users somehow. Banning someone because they have an opinion is not cool.

[smoothie]

Goat's signature says "This is how Theymos "resolves" business disputes."

What business disputes? I know Theymos was/is a part owner in GLBSE but what does that have to do with Goat? Is it Goat once again going off the deep end?

I tend to think so...

[underminer]

"     "within"      "    Quotation mark inception.

[smoothie]

"     "within"      "    Quotation mark inception.

Yeah my bad...i was just copy pasting ...

[underminer]

I just found it funny.  Why does everybody care about goat so much?

[AndrewBUD]

I like anyone who posts ridiculous shit that is fun to read

[smoothie]

I like anyone who posts ridiculous shit that is fun to read

You must love me then lol....

[AndrewBUD]

I like anyone who posts ridiculous shit that is fun to read

You must love me then lol....

naww you're annoying J/k

[smoothie]

I like anyone who posts ridiculous shit that is fun to read

You must love me then lol....

naww you're annoying J/k

  Annoyingly Lovable!

[Brunic]

I just found it funny.  Why does everybody care about goat so much?

He's well-known around here, participated a lot in BTC businesses and he was pretty active too. Around 6000 posts I think. His TYGRR business was also pretty big on GLBSE too. I don't know if the link between TYGRR and GLBSE is part of the reason, but I don't really like how this is handled right now. You can't simply ban somebody because you have different business views.

*EDIT*

Ok, it seems he got into a fight with theymos over the GLBSE stuff.

[underminer]

Ok I guess I get it.  I have not seen a whole lot of his posts and what I see paint a fairly meathead picture which made me wonder why anyone cared.

Also I just noticed this:

Posted by: cryptoanarchist
Insert Quote
This forum has gone to shit. I'm outta here.

LOL we tooo crazeh fo' theh anarchists nowah!

[repentance]

Why does everybody care about goat so much?

I don't think most people care about Goat.  What they want to know is whether there's some new, unwritten rule we all need to avoid breaking.

[bitlane]

B) My alt is "theymos".

All I can say is, if the above quote is true...then I am outta here as well.

[smoothie]

B) My alt is "theymos".

All I can say is, if the above quote is true...then I am outta here as well.

Bitlane, I love your signature. Awesome! 

[Ente]

Why does everybody care about goat so much?

I don't think most people care about Goat.  What they want to know is whether there's some new, unwritten rule we all need to avoid breaking.

That's the point.

Ente

[deeplink]

I just found it funny.  Why does everybody care about goat so much?

It's not about goat, I guess it is disappointment in/realization of the fact that this board is rapidly becoming just as phony as the real world.

Politics, regulation and other BS are taking over and if that wasn't bad enough, people who aren't passive or ignorant about it are being expelled or leaving the scene silently.

Look at the number of "we're going to court" and "xxx should be banned" threads and you see what I mean.

After 3 years into Bitcoin people have already forgotten what made it great. In real life at least it took us a couple of decades to forget.

[BadBear]

Why does everybody care about goat so much?

I don't think most people care about Goat.  What they want to know is whether there's some new, unwritten rule we all need to avoid breaking.

That's the point.

Ente

No, just don't troll, it's the great unwritten rule of any forum. Trolling is pretty subjective and opinion based so making a rule on that would be pretty pointless. That's why trying to prove someone is a troll is just as pointless as trying to prove someone isn't. You can't.

B) My alt is "theymos".

All I can say is, if the above quote is true...then I am outta here as well.

lol

And for the people talking about the Pirate fiasco and his involvement, there's a whole website dedicated to that. 

[cryptoanarchist]

Badbear...just dropped in to say you are one of the reasons I'm leaving this forum.

Your idea of "trolling" is saying things you personally don't like. That's a weak way to moderate a forum. You have the maturity of a little kid - "I'm taking my ball and going home! You're not my friend anymore!"

[LoupGaroux]

It is the worst sort of undermining irony to state that you are leaving for good strong moral grounds, and then commence to hang around to state your opinions about things.

Either stand up for your belief, and leave because of the outrage, or quit belly aching and post to your heart's content. This "I'm leaving because I'm outraged, but I'm going to hang around and keep trying to make you all feel guilty and point out all the stuff that is making me leave endlessly" nonsense just demeans the whole argument.

Go or stay, but try to be consistent.

[underminer]

underming?!?!

Who said my name?  Lol truly though, cry us all a river, build a boat and float away.

[Raize]

I do think it is a mistake to think that Bitcoin can grow enough that the community would all reside on one forum. You're inevitably going to get a signal to noise ratio that is so high that regulars want something done about it. It become even easier to troll among newbies as a site grows. Now, SA is doing targeted trolling in packs via PMs right now. I posted evidence of this here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=118154.msg1290529#msg1290529

There's a couple good and bad goons on this forum, obviously. I'm not recommending that any association with SA should qualify as a ban (I've been a member for over a decade, for example), but it does seem like some of the younger goons think it's not just enough to laugh at the silly and stupid things going on here, they also have to participate in it. I respect a good deal of SA users, especially the ones that ran Buttcoin and exposed Bruce Wagner for what he is. Additionally, anyone that finds good and useful information about scammers deserves to be commended, but the latest crop seem to just want to spew accusations and lack technical skills to actually do their due diligence on scams and scammers. Some of us found Bitcoin long long long before SA even started "invading".

A few of the latest are, notably:
MiloSmith - He or another goon posted pretending to be Dank on the SA forums so that he can use that as justification for banning Dank here.

Post where he screencaps it:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=117590.msg1293203#msg1293203

Then later:
https://i.imgur.com/OVmkF.png

Dancing Dan - Goes from newbie to "Why was Rarity banned" in less than a day, purposely misstates what other users say when they explain SA is trolling (a rather common SA trolling tactic).

There's probably others, but the easiest way to catch who is actually here just for trolling and who is here to watch the trolls is to do a grep in the logs for IPs being redirected from:
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3486823

Then monitor users registering new accounts from those IPs *really* closely and hold them to a different standard. At least till the unemployed and teenagers trolling from there get tired.

Course it sounds like they are going to slow down now:
https://i.imgur.com/Pt7S4.png

But they are linking directly to this thread now:
https://i.imgur.com/N7zPK.png

And then there is the link to another "Pony Scheme":
https://i.imgur.com/16JK7.png
Actual thread here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=119703.40

I'm with Maged on Goat's ban, there used to be a standard for bans, if Goat was being disruptive it should be a temp ban, probably. He just needs to clear his head and not troll. These other guys are trolling from the git-go.

As far as cryptoanarchist leaving... Goodbye Jeremy!

[BadBear]

I'm with Maged on Goat's ban, there used to be a standard for bans, if Goat was being disruptive it should be a temp ban, probably. He just needs to clear his head and not troll. These other guys are trolling from the git-go.

Those other guys are banned as well. Just because the ban won't automatically lift at a predetermined point doesn't mean it's permanent. Theymos rarely permabans anyone, he even unbanned bulanula at one point. Goat will chill out eventually, he just needs some time. 

[BadBear]

I'm with Maged on Goat's ban, there used to be a standard for bans, if Goat was being disruptive it should be a temp ban, probably. He just needs to clear his head and not troll. These other guys are trolling from the git-go.

Those other guys are banned as well. Just because the ban won't automatically lift at a predetermined point doesn't mean it's permanent. Theymos rarely permabans anyone, he even unbanned bulanula at one point. Goat will chill out eventually, he just needs some time. 

You’ve always been funny BadBear. I remember when you were just a wee newbie all upset because there are so many libertarians here. ROTFL

LOL, funny how things work out aint it?

Goat will never chill out. You know why? Because he’s crazy as a shithouse rat, that’s why. For a long time I thought it was just a language barrier. Then I went to believing he was a drug dealer getting high on his own supply but I eventually realized that druggies are usually more sentient than that. My mind changed when he had that big public argument with MNW about payment for the website work. Remember that. Even if he was in the right his arguments would flail around like the ramblings of a lunatic. If he is reinstated someone should check his meds first or maybe get a doctor’s note proving his fitness to “work and play well with others.”

Can't say I disagree. Maybe he'll chill out a bit once the Pirate and GLBSE drama pass, we'll have to see.

[420]

If (first page) is the banning criteria; I may have been banned if noticed months ago in my past behaviors.

[muyuu]

If (first page) is the banning criteria; I may have been banned if noticed months ago in my past behaviors.

Never too late for good deeds 

[420]

If (first page) is the banning criteria; I may have been banned if noticed months ago in my past behaviors.

Never too late for good deeds 

harty har.

I'm post crazy it appears.

[Jimmy Diamond]

Banning Goat was clearly the act of an administrator abusing his power to shut down someone who disagreed with him about GLBSE.  If Theymos is going to be unable to moderate around his biases, he should not moderate discussions about himself.

If I stop posting on these forums soon, it means I was banned for pointing this out too.

And he has not posted since.

[LoupGaroux]

Jimmy- I'm sure your impassioned arguments viz Theymos and the reasons behind his banning of Goat seem really valid to you as part of your whole ten minutes of experience in this community, but as has been explained ad nauseum, Goat was banned for reasons going way beyond a disagreement. Theymos has not banned for that reason alone, and I am living proof of it. Goat was banned for being an unrepentant jackass who never had a conversation, but cluttered up everyone's bandwidth with poorly conceived diatribes and refusing to discuss, preferring to preach his own warped view.

Of course, given a few minutes of lurking you might have known that before making your grand pronouncement. Welcome to the pool, watch out for the deep end.

[Bitcoin Oz]

Banning Goat was clearly the act of an administrator abusing his power to shut down someone who disagreed with him about GLBSE.  If Theymos is going to be unable to moderate around his biases, he should not moderate discussions about himself.

If I stop posting on these forums soon, it means I was banned for pointing this out too.

And he has not posted since.

If that was the case he would need to ban the entire forum plus a few moderators for good measure. Including GLBSE shareholders who disagree with him.

[likuidxd]

It was Goats own self righteousness that produced this ban. He could do no wrong, but if you did wrong he would tell you twenty times in your thread then make a new one when yours became to cluttered.

[Maged]

It is the worst sort of undermining irony to state that you are leaving for good strong moral grounds, and then commence to hang around to state your opinions about things.

Either stand up for your belief, and leave because of the outrage, or quit belly aching and post to your heart's content. This "I'm leaving because I'm outraged, but I'm going to hang around and keep trying to make you all feel guilty and point out all the stuff that is making me leave endlessly" nonsense just demeans the whole argument.

Go or stay, but try to be consistent.

I, for one, appreciate people who say that they are leaving, because it means that they're really just giving us a chance to change. You should listen to these people, especially when they have constructive criticism. You don't have to agree with them, even. Just listen.

[SaltySpitoon]

Yeah, I don't know how I feel about Goatse being banned. I thought the point of the ignore button was so if someone was bat shit insane, you didn't have to listen to them?

He may have been crazy, but he was a rather important BTC Business owner/investor/figure.

Then again, the crazies are the ones who amuse me the most, so maybe I'm wrong in saying it just doesn't feel right.

[LoupGaroux]

It is the worst sort of undermining irony to state that you are leaving for good strong moral grounds, and then commence to hang around to state your opinions about things.

Either stand up for your belief, and leave because of the outrage, or quit belly aching and post to your heart's content. This "I'm leaving because I'm outraged, but I'm going to hang around and keep trying to make you all feel guilty and point out all the stuff that is making me leave endlessly" nonsense just demeans the whole argument.

Go or stay, but try to be consistent.

I, for one, appreciate people who say that they are leaving, because it means that they're really just giving us a chance to change. You should listen to these people, especially when they have constructive criticism. You don't have to agree with them, even. Just listen.

It's not the swan song explaining their decision to leave... that much is valuable and speaks to issues that the community as a whole should consider. It's when they swan song and then keep hanging around and trying to find great examples to justify their position and throw taunts out about why they left. That's just wasted effort. They haven't left and have done nothing to advance the agenda they were trying to advance by leaving.

[FreeMoney]

Saying in a serious way that you are leaving should be autoban because either 1. You were leaving anyway 2. You are trolling.

No downside to anyone and might eliminate troll.

[underminer]

Genius.  I'm 100% for the above remark.  Then if you want to beg to come back you need a "whiner" tag for a little while you have to work off! 

[repentance]

Saying in a serious way that you are leaving should be autoban because either 1. You were leaving anyway 2. You are trolling.

No downside to anyone and might eliminate troll.

Can we also give people who do this a "flounce" tag?

[420]

It was Goats own self righteousness that produced this ban. He could do no wrong, but if you did wrong he would tell you twenty times in your thread then make a new one when yours became to cluttered.

was he ever warned

[LoupGaroux]

Repeatedly, in public and in private. Sometimes puppies just don't want to learn no matter how many times you rub their noses in their own mess.

[stochastic]

I think the ban went overboard.  I propose adding a new subforum for users to go into time-out.

[smoothie]

I think the ban went overboard.  I propose adding a new subforum for users to go into time-out.

Ooh timeout sub forum lol

[Este Nuno]

I think the ban went overboard.  I propose adding a new subforum for users to go into time-out.

Ooh timeout sub forum lol

Can we get a naughty stool sub forum, come on

+1

And the first two members: smoothie and goat.

Who ever comes out alive becomes time out forum mod.

[K1773R]

i was already wondering why goat is no longer spaming trash around ^^ well done

[BCB]

He's GOAT.  On a sunken boat.

[CharlieContent]

I'm not the biggest fan of Goat. Personally I think he's an idiot. Running a PPT should have earned anyone involved a scammer tag.

However, this move to censor him, as many others have said, is worrying.

The justification for his being banned can't be argued with. Anyone who looks through his post history will concur with the fact that he contributed nothing of substance, and was occasionally even a disruptive influence.

It is disturbing to me that this problem came to a head as soon as he criticized Theymos and his private business activities. It feels like his general idiocy has been used as a convenient excuse to ban him. It's very easy to get rid of someone who has an indefensible character, but we should think about the true motives for this action.

The same story applies with Rarity. Rarity was a longstanding troll who was here purely to have some fun, sometimes at the expense of more genuine users. I doubt the person in control of that forum account has ever even owned a Bitcoin. I doubt anyone could come up with a compelling reason why Rarity should not have been banned. The problem is that Rarity was allowed to troll the forum for many months until he directly criticized Theymos. Suddenly trolling which had been previously tolerated became a huge problem, in the same way that Goat's longstanding idiocy and inept investment schemes had been tolerated until he criticized Theymos.

Goat's gibberish was completely invisible to anyone who hit the ignore button. This is how he should have been dealt with. This is how countless users did deal with him. Now he has been censored completely and we should ask ourselves not if we miss him, because we don't, but why he was censored. I for one don't agree with the party line on this subject.

Bitcoin is  a great way to avoid economic control from a higher authority. It's a shame that a more laizzez-faire attitude is not taken to forum moderation too.

This forum is important to the Bitcoin community. It does not belong to Theymos, he is merely the caretaker. He did not create it, he does not own it, it was entrusted to him for the good of the community. He should be held accountable for his actions, for the good of the community. If he continues to impose an iron rule on those who criticize his private business activities, he should be ousted. For the good of the community.

To just allow this to stand is to risk damaging Bitcoin.

And I am sure I will be banned for this post, and I am sure that my past posting history will be used as an ad hominem attack on what I am saying. Yes, I have had some fun on this forum. It has occasionally been at the expense of others. But I believe in Bitcoin. I want it to succeed for both personal and political reasons, and I know that if Theymos and his cabal are allowed to dominate the discourse in by far the largest Bitcoin community then it is bad for Bitcoin. It is also bad for freedom.

[underminer]

I doubt you will be banned for a concise, clear argument like that.  How do you know the "attack" on theymos was not in fact a show?  We know about goat's gimmicks.  Is it so hard to believe that he *knew* he was going down soon for his bad behavior and decided to make as big a show as possible?

His signature certainly screams sensationalism.

[augustocroppo]

This forum is important to the Bitcoin community. It does not belong to Theymos, he is merely the caretaker. He did not create it, he does not own it, it was entrusted to him for the good of the community. He should be held accountable for his actions, for the good of the community. If he continues to impose an iron rule on those who criticize his private business activities, he should be ousted. For the good of the community.

To just allow this to stand is to risk damaging Bitcoin.

This is a private forum. There is no such thing of "community". Theymos was not elected, he was appointed. Therefore, he is entitled to ban whoever he deem necessary to protect his position and the private matters of this board. If you cannot cope with such harsh reality, here is not an appropriate place to you. You are free to leave at any time. But if you are willing to participate in this board, you have to abide with the rules and with who rules.

(...) Yes, I have had some fun on this forum. It has occasionally been at the expense of others. (...)

Oh, how pathetic... You admit to break certain rules but you cannot cope with rules being enforced by the administrator?

[Liberty Payout]

ChrisKoss

That is my point exactly.  Thread derailing.  I have been part of a number of threads as a participant and a reader where information is being conveyed, questions are being asked and answered and a genuine dialogue amongst and between the user is occurring.  Then depending on the time of day and/or how long the thread has been active their are about 6 -12 users (all with orange ignore buttons by the way - you all know who they are) who have absolutely nothing to add to dialogue, picking fights, insulting and generally just taking a dump in the middle of the party and it pretty much down hill from there.

It is really unfortunate.

You do this to nearly all of my threads. So I find this highly hypocritical.

[Liberty Payout]

Read through this entire thread and could not be happier. I remember during the summer when I first signed up here with some spare cash and thousands of ideas. The concept of bitcoin was appealing, imagine a one world currency! Stuff like this had been predicted years ago and now bitcoin was to bring it to life or at least initiate the chain that would (no pun). What I met, however, were narcissists. They attacked me vehemently for making mistakes that could rightfully be contributed to my noobness at this novel concept. I was called a scammer, accused of mulch-accounting, questioned on every aspect. Patronized for not wanting to give my identity information to absolute strangers. If I hadn't had the patience to stay a little longer and listen to the advice of a few good members; I would have done what anyone that has a bad experience with a denomination of a larger community does: I would have become prejudiced and attributed the unappealing attributes I encountered in everyone the first few days of my stay to the entire bitcoin community. I had chosen to wait though and continue building my trust and business in the bitcoin world, and even today some of these people follow me on my threads and post absolute nonsense. Stupid memes, that attribute nothing. If I don't want to deal with someone they come to my thread and call me a scammer. LET THIS COME TO AN END. It doesn't matter that I send back evidence and proof of my prior transactions, these people are just too full of themselves. So I am happy a change is coming to bitcointalk.

[Lethn]

Why put an ignore function in the forum if all you're going to do is ban/delete people you have a problem with? Use the ignore function and everyones happy, who cares if someone posts something stupid? It happens all the time, I've said stupid things before that I kick myself for when I read back on it but I think when we just ban people we disagree with or who have legitimate criticism all we do is just wreck communities. I've seen it happen again and again wherever I go often the thing that kills communities isn't what people complain about, it's when admins try to fashion their own little utopian societies through force.

I'm shamelessly going to plug my website here, but you guys are more than welcome join up on my forum, you can post right away after you join and there's even a chat room I've set up that I've posted the link to, it'll practically be anarchy and I'll be sure to make sure the ignore/block functions work everywhere so you don't have to put up with any nuisance. My only plan regarding it is to ban virus posters and bot spammers.

[K1773R]

Why put an ignore function in the forum if all you're going to do is ban/delete people you have a problem with? Use the ignore function and everyones happy, who cares if someone posts something stupid? It happens all the time, I've said stupid things before that I kick myself for when I read back on it but I think when we just ban people we disagree with or who have legitimate criticism all we do is just wreck communities. I've seen it happen again and again wherever I go often the thing that kills communities isn't what people complain about, it's when admins try to fashion their own little utopian societies through force.

I'm shamelessly going to plug my website here, but you guys are more than welcome join up on my forum, you can post right away after you join and there's even a chat room I've set up that I've posted the link to, it'll practically be anarchy and I'll be sure to make sure the ignore/block functions work everywhere so you don't have to put up with any nuisance. My only plan regarding it is to ban virus posters and bot spammers.

if there would be no control bitcointalk would be to 75% of spammers, scammers and trolls. Im sry some ppl think if they have "freedom" they can du every shit they want.

[augustocroppo]

(...) I've seen it happen again and again wherever I go often the thing that kills communities isn't what people complain about, it's when admins try to fashion their own little utopian societies through force.

I'm shamelessly going to plug my website here, but you guys are more than welcome join up on my forum, you can post right away after you join and there's even a chat room I've set up that I've posted the link to, it'll practically be anarchy and I'll be sure to make sure the ignore/block functions work everywhere so you don't have to put up with any nuisance. My only plan regarding it is to ban virus posters and bot spammers.

One more pathetic argument...

Let's me understand:

You argue that administrators which ban users are trying to "fashion their own little utopian societies", but at the same time you are inviting users to join your new "little utopian societies" forum?

 

[Lethn]

When the hell did I say it was going to be a little utopian society? It's no wonder people are getting banned from here if they're losing their temper with people like you who have the balls to quote someone and completely lie about what they're saying at the same time.

[underminer]

Wow.

new "little utopian societies" forum?

" "
" "
" "

Do you know what those mean?  *You* are a ridiculous person.  I for one am not going to your little patch of crazy staked out on them thar networks.

[CharlieContent]

This is a private forum. There is no such thing of "community". Theymos was not elected, he was appointed. Therefore, he is entitled to ban whoever he deem necessary to protect his position and the private matters of this board. If you cannot cope with such harsh reality, here is not an appropriate place to you. You are free to leave at any time. But if you are willing to participate in this board, you have to abide with the rules and with who rules.

So if someone in power has not been democratically elected they can and should be free to do whatever they want, no matter how unfair or corrupt it is?

With that kind of mindset I wonder why you are even involved in the Bitcoin project.

I think if a man owns a house he should be able to do anything he wants in it. But Theymos does not own this house. He is merely looking after it for the benefit of us who live in it.

This forum is the heart of Bitcoin discourse. It has been since the very beginning of the Bitcoin project. It's not just some private forum that Theymos started.

Theymos doesn't have ownership. He does have a lot of power and a big responsibility, perhaps the biggest responsibility of anyone involved in Bitcoin. If he starts banning people for criticizing him, or any other subjective and extrajudicial reason, then it will negatively effect Bitcoin, and all of us in one way or another. This forum is too closely entwined with the entire Bitcoin project for it to be any other way. It always has been.

If Theymos can not maintain a neutral position, then he should resign and hand the reigns of power over to someone who can enforce the rules consistently and independently of their own subjective feelings or any personal criticism that has been leveled against their private business activities.

(...) Yes, I have had some fun on this forum. It has occasionally been at the expense of others. (...)

Oh, how pathetic... You admit to break certain rules but you cannot cope with rules being enforced by the administrator?

Actually I have only recently had my posting rights reinstated after a 14 day suspension as a result of making a poorly thought out "joke" post.  I absolutely deserved it and you won't see me complain about it here or anywhere else, so yes, I can cope with rules being enforced by the administrator.

I don't have a problem with forum rules. Spammers, scammers and anarchy makes for shitty discussions. The problem is that the rules don't seem to be enforced in a consistent, impersonal and impartial way. If rules suddenly become more strictly enforced when the person who breaks them criticizes the private business practices of the administrator, then we have an unfair situation, wouldn't you agree?

[Lethn]

If Theymos can not maintain a neutral position, then he should resign and hand the reigns of power over to someone who can enforce the rules consistently and independently of their own subjective feelings or any personal criticism that has been leveled against their private business activities.

That's usually when the communities I've been in fall apart, some person comes along thinking they can do better and then everything goes to hell.

[ChrisKoss]

Use the ignore function and everyones happy, who cares if someone posts something stupid?

I completely disagree.  The ignore function barely works.  

If everyone is ignoring someone, then they don't disrupt threads. But as soon as one person quotes and replies, the ignored person's posts become part of the discussion. You can't avoid them, and threads are derailed and overcomplicated to the point of no longer being useful.  Happens way too much right now.  

Anyone who says this was an arbitrary, biased ban hasn't been paying attention to Goat's post history.  Go read his last hundred posts and tell me that he was contributing the conversations he was a part of.  He repeated the same points over and over, trying to dictate his point instead of discuss it. Having an occasional legitimate criticism or some good posts doesn't excuse you from being a belligerent disrupting troll the other 90% of the time.

I fully support theymos' recent bans of Goat and Rarity, and hope he continues banning anyone who repeatedly disruptive or belligerent.

[ChrisKoss]

Charlie,

This is a private forum that was first set up by the MtGox people (I think, someone correct me if I'm wrong), and it's managed by the admin they appointed.

It is Theymos' right and obligation to remove those who are harming the quality of these forums.  The ban was not a result of bias, there were plenty of neutral reasons to ban Goat: he was trolling and belligerent.  Just because Theymos has a personal disagreement with someone does not give them ban-immunity or a free pass to troll.   He did the right thing.

[gweedo]

Charlie,

This is a private forum that was first set up by the MtGox people (I think, someone correct me if I'm wrong), and it's managed by the admin they appointed.

It is Theymos' right and obligation to remove those who are harming the quality of these forums.  The ban was not a result of bias, there were plenty of neutral reasons to ban Goat: he was trolling and belligerent.  Just because Theymos has a personal disagreement with someone does not give them ban-immunity or a free pass to troll.   He did the right thing.

This forum was here wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy before mt gox was here, it was setup up by satoshi and sirus i am pretty sure. Mt gox just host's the forum that is there only involvement with it.

[deeplink]

If Theymos can not maintain a neutral position, then he should resign and hand the reigns of power over to someone who can enforce the rules consistently and independently of their own subjective feelings or any personal criticism that has been leveled against their private business activities.

That's usually when the communities I've been in fall apart, some person comes along thinking they can do better and then everything goes to hell.

If you look at the big players in this community, much power is concentrated in few individuals and organizations: Bitcointalk, Bitcoin Foundation, MtGox, BitInstant, that's about it. As far as I can tell, these people are all doing great jobs (mostly) and have good intentions. That does not mean I am not highly skeptical of any concentration of power and I react in a very sensitive way to the smallest indication of misuse of power. Why? Because power corrupts. Why could what happens all the time in the real world not happen to people in this small and unregulated community?

On a technical level Bitcoin may be able to survive corruption. Yes, so is concentration of power irrelevant? No, because socially there are enormous challenges ahead. I see a growing split in the community: a compliant majority defending almost anything and a skeptical minority. And that's fine, because everyone is entitled to have their own opinion.

But Bitcoin is an experiment. If any majority is wrong and cannot be convinced otherwise, Bitcoin can fail.

[CharlieContent]

Charlie,

This is a private forum that was first set up by the MtGox people (I think, someone correct me if I'm wrong), and it's managed by the admin they appointed.

You've already been corrected, but if you had read my post properly you would have known that this forum predates Mt. Gox by several years. No offense, but you make yourself look pretty dense by weighing in with ignorant assertions, especially when the truth of the matter is right here in this thread. I humbly suggest that you should ensure that you know what you are talking about before you try to correct me on a matter I am clearly far better aquatinted with than you.

No one is expecting you to know everything, but when you assume you know more than someone else and you are wrong, well....

...you know what they say about what happens when you assume. You make yourself look like a bit of a cunt.  

It is Theymos' right and obligation to remove those who are harming the quality of these forums.

I agree.

The ban was not a result of bias

How on earth would you know? I suspect you are making assumptions again. Haven't you learned your lesson about that yet?

there were plenty of neutral reasons to ban Goat: he was trolling and belligerent.

That is true. So why was he only banned when he criticized Theymos, and not before? I admit that he became more vexing recently, but it's a rather rum coincidence that his behavior was suddenly deemed to be intolerable as soon as he began to take issue with the personal dealings of Theymos, isn't it? Especially as this has happened a few times recently.

Just because Theymos has a personal disagreement with someone does not give them ban-immunity or a free pass to troll.  

I never suggested that it should. However, as I have said many times now, if Theymos suddenly decides to ban someone right after they have a personal disagreement, and the official reason is behavior that was previously tolerated over a long period, then it is a cause for concern.

He did the right thing.

Yeah, maybe. But did he do it for the right reasons? That's up to everyone to decide. You certainly seem to have made your mind up. Personally I am not so sure.

[augustocroppo]

So if someone in power has not been democratically elected they can and should be free to do whatever they want, no matter how unfair or corrupt it is?

If is not detrimental for the matters which they represent, yes.

With that kind of mindset I wonder why you are even involved in the Bitcoin project.

I am not yet involved in any project related to Bitcoin. I am only a participant of this forum.

So there is no reason to wondering.

I think if a man owns a house he should be able to do anything he wants in it. But Theymos does not own this house. He is merely looking after it for the benefit of us who live in it.

This is not a house and the participants of this board do not live here.

This forum is the heart of Bitcoin discourse. It has been since the very beginning of the Bitcoin project. It's not just some private forum that Theymos started.

That does not mean the forum administrators have any obligation to agree with the demands of Bitcoins users.

I don't have a problem with forum rules. Spammers, scammers and anarchy makes for shitty discussions. The problem is that the rules don't seem to be enforced in a consistent, impersonal and impartial way. If rules suddenly become more strictly enforced when the person who breaks them criticizes the private business practices of the administrator, then we have an unfair situation, wouldn't you agree?

No, I would not.

Moreover, no user has been banned due criticism against Theymos. This has already been explained by the administrators and moderators.

[augustocroppo]

When the hell did I say it was going to be a little utopian society? It's no wonder people are getting banned from here if they're losing their temper with people like you who have the balls to quote someone and completely lie about what they're saying at the same time.

You made a suggestion and I replied with a suggestion using your own words.

You suggested that the forum administrator are running this forum "to fashion their own little utopian societies" while inviting people to participate in your forum.

I suggested that your are inviting people to participate in your forum "to fashion" your "own little utopian societies".

There is no lies, only a clever use of your own words against your argument.

 

[augustocroppo]

No one is expecting you to know everything, but when you assume you know more than someone else and you are wrong, well....

...you know what they say about what happens when you assume. You make yourself look like a bit of a cunt.  

That is true. So why was he only banned when he criticized Theymos, and not before? I admit that he became more vexing recently, but it's a rather rum coincidence that his behavior was suddenly deemed to be intolerable as soon as he began to take issue with the personal dealings of Theymos, isn't it? Especially as this has happened a few times recently.

How do you know that? Which evidence you have to prove that Goat was banned only when he/she criticized Theymos?

You had put yourself in a very fragile position in this board with the above offensive post.

I recommend you to find evidence to support your assumptions.

[CharlieContent]

So if someone in power has not been democratically elected they can and should be free to do whatever they want, no matter how unfair or corrupt it is?

If is not detrimental for the matters which they represent, yes.

Your support of unfairness and corruption is bizarre to me. I think we must have very different opinions on many matters and should perhaps agree to disagree. I hate unfairness and corruption so I think we are unlikely to reach a consensus or even have any meaningful debate since we come from such diametrically opposed positions. I never thought I'd see someone unapologetically defend unfairness and corruption! Only on BitcoinTalk, haha.

I think if a man owns a house he should be able to do anything he wants in it. But Theymos does not own this house. He is merely looking after it for the benefit of us who live in it.

This is not a house and the participants of this board do not live here.

This made me laugh. You have metaphors in Brazil too, right?

If rules suddenly become more strictly enforced when the person who breaks them criticizes the private business practices of the administrator, then we have an unfair situation, wouldn't you agree?

No, I would not.

Hahaha. Is defending the indefensible a hobby of yours?

If you think it is a perfectly fair situation, then why are we arguing? Even if I prove to you that it happened like that beyond a doubt, then you have already said you approve of it regardless?

Moreover, no user has been banned due criticism against Theymos. This has already been explained by the administrators and moderators.

Only if you choose to blindly believe them despite how suspicious it seems. If you want to believe them, fine. I choose to think for myself rather than just believe what people tell me without questioning it.

How do you know that? Which evidence you have to prove that Goat was banned only when he/she criticized Theymos?

Hahaha. Well he didn't get banned before he criticized Theymos on the forums, did he?

Do your own research if you want to read the posts where he took issue with Theymos.

Generally, you seem like a pretty despicable person. You seem to approve of corruption and unfairness. I think what you have said is loathsome, and I don't understand how anyone could have the sickening opinions that you espouse. You're obviously some kind of totalitarian statist, and I don't think that Bitcoin is right for you. Bitcoin is about liberty and freedom, both of which seem to be anathema to your own personal philosophy. On a personal level, you make me sick. People like you are the reason that Ernesto Geisel, João Baptista de Oliveira Figueiredo, Emílio Médici and Artur da Costa e Silva were in power in your country. I would not be surprised to learn that you supported them if you are old enough, or perhaps you were even a part of their government. I want nothing more to do with a man like you, who supports corruption openly. You are a vile excuse for a human being.

[augustocroppo]

(...)
Ignoratio Elenchi.

Ignoratio Elenchi, according to Aristotle, is a fallacy which arises from “ignorance of the nature of refutation.” In order to refute an assertion, Aristotle says we must prove its contradictory; the proof, consequently, of a proposition which stood in any other relation than that to the original, would be an ignoratio elenchi… For instance, instead of proving that ‘this person has committed an atrocious fraud,’ you prove that ‘this fraud he is accused of is atrocious;’” … The nature of the fallacy, then, consists in substituting for a certain issue another which is more or less closely related to it, and arguing the substituted issue.

The subject in discussion is about Goat's banishment, not what you fictionally assume about my character.

Do your own research if you want to read the posts where he took issue with Theymos.

I do my own research:

I decided that he harms discussions too much to be allowed to continue. He posts more than Atlas and his posts are of lower quality. When he argues about something, he ignores all of the arguments of his opponents and just repeats the same nonsense over and over. I suspect that he may be intentionally trying to stir up drama in order to hurt the forum and the community.

The ban will not expire automatically. I may review it later.

Goat's gone off the deep end lately, you can't reason with him at all. Warnings won't work he'll just troll about that too.

He needed a break from the forums.

So, where is your evidence which demonstrates that the user Goat was banned solely because he/she criticized Theymos? You just have fallacious assumptions like this?

Well he didn't get banned before he criticized Theymos on the forums, did he?

Because event A did not happened, it not means event B happened.

[augustocroppo]

If repeating bad arguments over and over and not listening to the points of the other side is bannable, augustocroppo should have been gone a long time ago.  He argues for Theymos instead of against him though, so it isn't a problem.

I do read all the arguments. If I did not, I would not be able to refute them.

I argue for evidence, not for Theymos. If there was coherent evidence countering my arguments, there would not be a refutation from my part.

[augustocroppo]

The timing is legitimate evidence.  The arguing for long term problems for the users is undercut when these so called long-term problems are only handled immediately after criticizing Theymos on GLBSE.  You ignore this, and the only evidence you will consider is the words of the very same administrators who are being questioned.  Of course they are going to deny wrong doing, but the timing doesn't support their claims.  

So, where is the evidence? Present the posts with the time-stamp and I will discuss the matter. Your assumption is not evidence.

[CharlieContent]

The subject in discussion is about Goat's banishment, not what you fictionally assume about my character.

I assume nothing about your character. You made it very clear what type of person you are in the above posts where you very plainly state that you are prepared to defend corruption and unfairness.

So, where is your evidence which demonstrates that the user Goat was banned solely because he/she criticized Theymos?

It's impossible to prove that. Only Theymos knows exactly why he banned Goat. If you read my posts carefully you will see that at no point have I asserted that he was definitely banned solely because he criticized Theymos. All I have done is point out a worrying series of coincidences.

Here are the facts:

Goat is an idiot. He has trolled, acted belligerently, lost a lot of investor coins, etc, for the whole time he has been a member.

He was only banned when he criticized Theymos, and not before.

His behavior was suddenly deemed to be intolerable as soon as he began to take issue with the personal dealings of Theymos.

He isn't the only person to suddenly have longstanding behavior deemed intolerable as soon as they criticized the personal dealings of Theymos.

These facts don't prove anything. But they do give me cause for suspicion.

If you want to ignore these facts completely and put all of your faith in Theymos telling the truth about his reasons then it is up to you. Maybe I'm a cynical bastard, but I usually decide what to believe for myself rather than trusting people blindly. If you need irrevocable evidence of a lie before you are prepared to question people's version of the truth, well I suppose you are just a much more naturally trusting person than I am.

To be honest I am not sure why you are still trying to debate me on this issue. You have already said that if Theymos did decide to ban Goat because he criticized his private business dealings then it would be OK with you, so why are you asking me to provide proof? Even if it were possible to prove it, such proof would be greeted with indifference by you.

In an unrelated matter, your understanding of Aristotle on logic seems to be a little flawed. I am glad I got my degree in Philosophy from Oxford rather than wherever you studied it.

[Maged]

Hahaha. Well he didn't get banned before he criticized Theymos on the forums, did he?

And yet a very strong majority of the people who have ever been banned on BitcoinTalk.org have not once criticized a staff member. If I'm understanding you right, that means that we should never ban someone once they criticize one of the staff? Because statistically, only a handful of people have been banned after criticising a staff member out of hundreds of people who have been banned, so you can't say that it's a problem in that sense. Nor are we banning an overly high number of people from the pool of people that criticise us, so that's not an issue, either. So again, you're saying that we just can't ban people period after they criticise the staff because it might be a conflict of interest. So then who does ban them if they do something bad? It can't be another staff member, because you still claim that is a conflict: in both of the recent ban cases (Rarity and Goat), another mod has approved of the ban. So, I guess we give the decision to the people? Well, damn, that doesn't work either, since they both had orange ignore buttons.

So please, tell me, what the hell are we supposed to do in such a situation?

[CharlieContent]

Hahaha. Well he didn't get banned before he criticized Theymos on the forums, did he?

And yet a very strong majority of the people who have ever been banned on BitcoinTalk.org have not once criticized a staff member. If I'm understanding you right, that means that we should never ban someone once they criticize one of the staff? Because statistically, only a handful of people have been banned after criticising a staff member out of hundreds of people who have been banned, so you can't say that it's a problem in that sense. Nor are we banning an overly high number of people from the pool of people that criticise us, so that's not an issue, either. So again, you're saying that we just can't ban people period after they criticise the staff because it might be a conflict of interest. So then who does ban them if they do something bad? It can't be another staff member, because you still claim that is a conflict: in both of the recent ban cases (Rarity and Goat), another mod has approved of the ban. So, I guess we give the decision to the people? Well, damn, that doesn't work either, since they both had orange ignore buttons.

So please, tell me, what the hell are we supposed to do in such a situation?

Well, first off I should say that think the moderation policy is pretty good on the forums, generally, and I appreciate the fact that you are listening to me and engaging with me publicly.

I don't think that if someone criticizes a moderator they should be immune from banning.

I think, simply, that if you are going to ban someone you should do it for an objective reason and do it promptly. If Rarity was banned for trolling, then he should have been banned months before he had a chance to criticize Theymos. If Goat was banned for being a general fool, then he should probably have been banned even longer ago.

Their behavior was tolerated for a very long time. It was only punished after they criticized Theymos and his personal business activities. If this is a total coincidence then it is a very strange one. I think most people would agree that this looks suspiciously like corrupt censorship, even if some of them think that Theymos has the right to corruptly censor anyone he chooses.

I would suggest that if you are going to ban someone for trolling or idiocy, don't do it after they have been allowed to get away with it for months. Otherwise you might coincidentally end up banning them for long standing behavior immediately after they have criticized the chief administrator of this forum. And that looks bad.

[K1773R]

Hahaha. Well he didn't get banned before he criticized Theymos on the forums, did he?

And yet a very strong majority of the people who have ever been banned on BitcoinTalk.org have not once criticized a staff member. If I'm understanding you right, that means that we should never ban someone once they criticize one of the staff? Because statistically, only a handful of people have been banned after criticising a staff member out of hundreds of people who have been banned, so you can't say that it's a problem in that sense. Nor are we banning an overly high number of people from the pool of people that criticise us, so that's not an issue, either. So again, you're saying that we just can't ban people period after they criticise the staff because it might be a conflict of interest. So then who does ban them if they do something bad? It can't be another staff member, because you still claim that is a conflict: in both of the recent ban cases (Rarity and Goat), another mod has approved of the ban. So, I guess we give the decision to the people? Well, damn, that doesn't work either, since they both had orange ignore buttons.

So please, tell me, what the hell are we supposed to do in such a situation?

Well, first off I should say that think the moderation policy is pretty good on the forums, generally, and I appreciate the fact that you are listening to me and engaging with me publicly.

I don't think that if someone criticizes a moderator they should be immune from banning.

I think, simply, that if you are going to ban someone you should do it for an objective reason and do it promptly. If Rarity was banned for trolling, then he should have been banned months before he had a chance to criticize Theymos. If Goat was banned for being a general fool, then he should probably have been banned even longer ago.

Their behavior was tolerated for a very long time. It was only punished after they criticized Theymos and his personal business activities. If this is a total coincidence then it is a very strange one. I think most people would agree that this looks suspiciously like corrupt censorship, even if some of them think that Theymos has the right to corruptly censor anyone he chooses.

I would suggest that if you are going to ban someone for trolling or idiocy, don't do it after they have been allowed to get away with it for months. Otherwise you might coincidentally end up banning them for long standing behavior immediately after they have criticized the chief administrator of this forum. And that looks bad.

maybe he did bann him cause he tougd "now its tomuch". after all the problem got solved so where is the problem? the real problem would start if the moderators/admins would start banning without a resason! altough i didnt see this happen yet (if im wrong, proov pls )

[J-Norm]

Censorship is when someone says you cannot publish something. It is not censorship to refuse to publish something for someone else.

When you are on another person's forum and they remove your post that is called editorial control.

When you operate your own forum and someone tells you what you cannot put on it that is censorship.

There is a big difference. The publishers of this forum can remove any damn thing they want, that is part of free speech.