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Author Topic: jgarzik goes berzerk in #bitcoin-dev, wtf?  (Read 28560 times)
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December 01, 2012, 02:23:40 AM
 #201

So, you're saying that just because USA part of devteam is too lazy to move out of USA, it is justified to sell Bitcoin and trust of it's users?

I accept no excuse for treason.

Trolling?

No, it means as long as we sit on our asses doing nothing but whining and demanding, we are reinforcing the current situation. Devs don't owe anything to us, nor the world in general.
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December 01, 2012, 02:27:54 AM
 #202

jgarzik  is intelligent, he looks long term, and wants bitcoin to succeed. Some people don't see the big picture.
Bitcoin is not going to succeed if core devs live in fear of being prosecuted for not adhering to US sanctions on any country. That IS the big picture!

It's also not going to succeed in the long term if development of the official client and big economic players are shut down for sanction-busting.
That is too bad. They can be shut down for many other reasons including dollar-busting, 'unique' form of terrorism, money laundering, tax evasion, drug trafficing, etc. How is sanction-busting different?
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December 01, 2012, 03:00:40 AM
 #203

They can be shut down for many other reasons including dollar-busting, 'unique' form of terrorism, money laundering, tax evasion, drug trafficing, etc. How is sanction-busting different?

Based on past history, governments tend to get more aggressive with businesses/organisations which ignore sanctions. When you're imposing trade embargoes, it's to punish a whole government - which is a whole different level of power than enforcing money-laundering or terrorism financing laws against individuals or organisations.  It's largely possible to avoid money-laundering, terrorism financing and tax evasion issues - especially for the devs.  It's much, much harder to avoid sanction-busting issues because merely doing business at all with entities in the sanctioned nations opens you up to sanctions yourself.  Just making Bitcoin technology available in those nations - even free of charge - could be regarded as a violation of the embargo which can create a domino effect where other nations then effectively punish you for breaking the embargo.

It doesn't matter how ludicrous you might regard the sanctions as being (and I could write right pages about how ridiculous the sanctions against Cuba were in both scope and duration), violating them can create a situation where Bitcoin is still legal per se but key organisations are effectively unable to operate. The majority of Bitcoin businesses need to interact with the conventional financial system in some way and if they violate embargoes it can be made very difficult for them to interact with financial institutions.  Restraints can be put on the development of the official Bitcoin client.  If businesses and organisations relocate, the new nations - which will likely be small and not especially powerful - from which they operate then risk sanctions themselves if they allow those organisations/businesses to trade (not just economically, but also in terms of sharing technology and IP) with Iran.  There aren't a whole lot of countries that have no economic ties with the EU or the US, and those ties give them significant leverage when it comes to commanding co-operation in enforcing embargoes.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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December 01, 2012, 03:03:40 AM
 #204

Thank you for the entertainment.  This thread is completely full of mindboggling silliness.

1) RE "why?" Gavin nailed it on IRC:
Code:
<gavinandresen> I think jermias was banned because jgarzik was grumpy
(I'd guess too little sleep, he has a little one) and jeremias tried to
workaround jgarzik's request to take political discussion out of here.

Offtopic crap, followed by a transparent attempt to keep the offtopic discussion going.  After warnings and repeated kicks are ignored, you get banned.  Typical IRC B.S.

2) Apparently the IRC command "/ban jeremias" automatically banned all of Finland, thanks to his hostname and IRC server/client parsing, another LOL moment.  Finland was un-banned immediately ;p

3) jeremias was unbanned after several hours (by me, with no one prompting or requesting this).

As to the bigger picture...  that's coming in the next post.


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December 01, 2012, 03:40:51 AM
Last edit: December 01, 2012, 06:41:31 AM by jgarzik
 #205

As for the bigger picture, it is important that readers review

In short, if you care about bitcoin, if you want bitcoin to survive long term, you need to play a long game.

In particular, big governments have committed billions of dollars and a small specops army to interdicting what they consider their major enemies.  Just about the worst thing you can do is look at the targets of the Big Guys -- Iran, North Korea, Taliban, jihadi terrorists -- and put bitcoin squarely in their crosshairs.

Right now bitcoin is weak; a few thousand listening nodes run by hobbyists are all that holds the network together.  The switch from GPU/FPGA to ASIC will bring an increase in network strength -- but it also consolidates hash production power in a tiny handful of startup companies.  If you think bitcoin can right now sustain a targeted cyber attack, you are dead wrong.

On the legal front, it is also quite clear that law enforcement is taking an active look at bitcoin.  There is an active SEC investigation into Pirate-related activities (good; clear out the swamp).  The DEA is most certainly looking at Silk Road.  The FBI produced an in-depth report on bitcoin, and talks actively about bitcoin at anti-money-laundering conferences.

It is therefore logical to conclude that IRC, forum and other activities are being continually monitored for evidence that can be used in a court of law.

That makes it all the more rich when anonymous forum trolls hurl charges of "cowardice!" and "treason!" when these trolls are neither (a) using their real name, nor (b) contributing in any meaningful way, nor (c) a High Value Target.  Teenaged crypto-anarchists may love to mock the "sheeple" who follow the laws of their jurisdiction, but at the end of the day, they just move back into their parents' house if they run into trouble.  Not that easy for me.

Just like a great many of people I would like to introduce to bitcoin, I am a law-abiding US citizen, using my real name, in public, volunteering my time to work on multiple bitcoin implementations.  Businesses like WordPress are law-abiding businesses.   It is logical and normal to expect people to follow the laws of their country.

That is the most revealing, the most saddening part about this thread.  In a short-sighted attempt to be a morally pure crypto-anarchist, you could ruin the true monetary freedom bitcoin brings, for the billions on this planet.


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December 01, 2012, 04:02:23 AM
 #206

It is therefore logical to conclude that IRC, forum and other activities are being continually monitored for evidence that can be used in a court of law.

Or a court of public opinion.  Some of the positions people adopt on these forms, and less often on IRC, are rather alarming to outright despicable.  While I hold the view that people have a right to have opinions which are widely (and rationally considered!) despicable my own freedom demands that I not be forced to associate with them.  If there is to be free speech a community also needs to have the freedom to exclude and choose their associations lest they all be made worthless by a competition of the loudest shock artists.   Sometimes I hesitate to mention Bitcoin to people because I'm, frankly, embarrassed that I might be associated with some of the people here.

The ultimate arbiter of the rightness of keeping someone in a channel or excluding them is the users of the channel and no one else has any business having an opinion. I'm especially disappointed to see the hysteria in this thread— mostly from people who do not use the channel, do not contribute to development, and may not even have a clue what IRC even is...   Why is it that so many seem to have so much time to rant and rave in this thread but yet cant find the time to spin up a prerelease copy of bitcoin and file some bug reports? Sad
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December 01, 2012, 04:43:41 AM
 #207

Just like a great many of people I would like to introduce to bitcoin, I am a law-abiding US citizen, using my real name, in public, volunteering my time to work on multiple bitcoin implementations.  Businesses like WordPress are law-abiding businesses.   It is logical and normal to expect people to follow the laws of their country.

With all due respect, it is logical and normal to expect people to inform themselves and to stand up against atrocities commited by their government in their name. Trade sanctions harm and kill the innocent, directly, every hour of every day. The purpose of trade sanctions is not to "punish the government," but to criminalize and weaken the industry, economy, and the society in general, making it an easy target for military harassment.


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December 01, 2012, 04:53:47 AM
 #208

it is logical and normal to expect people to inform themselves and to stand up against atrocities commited by their government in their name.
There are smart ways to stand up against the most powerful government the world has ever seen and there are stupid ways to do it.
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December 01, 2012, 05:00:08 AM
 #209

With all due respect, it is logical and normal to expect people to inform themselves and to stand up against atrocities
There are understaffed food kitchens in your community. How come you've got over a thousand posts here?

Hm. This picking the causes that other people should be fighting thing is fun.
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December 01, 2012, 05:09:41 AM
 #210

What do the Bitcoin Foundation members think about their representative banning someone for talking about Iran? Is it the foundation's official position that bitcoin is the currency for everyone!*

*Everyone meaning those not deemed undesirable by government authorities.

It seems such a position would be in line with the EFF's statement that they are scared of bitcoin. Is the foundation scared of bitcoin also? If so, how can it advocate for its use in a way that is indicative of its potential? Will the foundation encourage limiting discussion or efforts to spread bitcoin software to any other particular countries or groups? Has the foundation automatically bought in to the terrorism propaganda that they leverage to take any action they deem necessary, including midnight raids and drone strikes in foreign countries?

Garzik mentioned chess in his defense. Is the foundation ignorant enough to believe that any potential governmental foe is playing a fair game of any sort? That it adheres to any form of rule or law? Is the foundation naive enough to try and placate such organized efforts with this tiptoeing around its indiscriminate violence and shameful hypocrisy? This type of incident serves their interest more than it does bitcoin's, and if the foundation continues to play by this rigged game, it will lose. And it will lose because it misinterprets and grossly misunderstands the distorted values and ruthlessness of their opposition.

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December 01, 2012, 05:12:01 AM
 #211

I am going to have to agree with jgarzik here.

We as a community are asking for swift trouble from US govt bullies if we are actively marketing Bitcoin to Iran.  It has nothing to do with whether it's legal, moral, ethical or not. We are lucky they have left this project alone thus far.  Doing anything that looks like marketing to Iran will change that quickly.

Also, bitcoin-dev is a publicly logged channel.  If I am a Bitcoin developer on a publicly logged chat channel where my actions could be scrutinized by the media and the world and someone wants to discuss Iran, kicking and banning in a publicly visible manner would be prudent.  That is truly not a good place to talk about that subject.

I sure as hell would not want to discuss bringing Bitcoin to Iran in any place where my discussion was being logged and published.

I'm only on page two of this thread, but so far I totally agree with this.

Using the dev chan to promote advertising BTC to Iran is ridiculous. The west is more serious about the Iranian sanctions now than they've ever been. Talking about using Bitcoin to skirt those sanctions is suicide for this community.
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December 01, 2012, 05:24:01 AM
 #212

somewhere along the line this thread just turned into a trollfest

Bro, do you even blockchain?
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December 01, 2012, 05:34:09 AM
 #213


With all due respect, it is logical and normal to expect people to inform themselves and to stand up against atrocities commited by their government in their name.


Why don't you lead by example and tell us about all the ways in which you are standing up against atrocities committed by your government (because no matter where you live, your government is either committing atrocities or supporting nations which do).  Or are you just another armchair anarchist who would have watched safely from the sidelines while encouraging others to stand before the tanks in Tiananmen Square?

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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December 01, 2012, 06:43:08 AM
Last edit: December 01, 2012, 08:18:37 AM by niko
 #214


With all due respect, it is logical and normal to expect people to inform themselves and to stand up against atrocities commited by their government in their name.


Why don't you lead by example and tell us about all the ways in which you are standing up against atrocities committed by your government (because no matter where you live, your government is either committing atrocities or supporting nations which do).  Or are you just another armchair anarchist who would have watched safely from the sidelines while encouraging others to stand before the tanks in Tiananmen Square?

No, I am not an armchair anarchist. I don't even consider myself an anarchist. I did spend (literally spend) years of my life actively opposing immoral and illegal actions of the government of my own country during the Yugoslav civil war. I refused to serve in armed forces. My father did refuse too, and lost his job over it. In the midst of severe trade sanctions, with no legal ways to import or buy medications, fuel, spare parts, and occasionally food. No way of competing in the Olympics. No way of getting to read latest science journals at the university. How do you think city buses and hospitals operate under trade sanctions?

I never whined about it all, as I knew very well that actions of my own government were causing much greater suffering of people in the neighboring region. I spent days and nights in direct action groups, in clouds of tear gas, with rubber and occasionally real bullets flying around, being chased, beaten, and harassed by the riot police and undercover agents. We arrested our own president, and he died in prison some years later, for crimes much smaller than what each and every of Jeff Garzik's presidents typically commits in only a year.

There are some rather reasonable arguments in this thread as to why we should not openly promote Bitcoin as sanction-busting tool. I don't even think it would be a good tool for that purpose. But Jeff's words in IRC to me demonstrated a worrisome level of comfort with his own sociopathic government, and total disregard and disrespect of their innocent victims, who suffer much more than he would ever suffer even if the "evil government" nailed him. I hereby apologize if I misinterpreted his words as selfish and ignorant.

Thank you for reading this.

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December 01, 2012, 07:01:39 AM
 #215

Firstly, thanks Jeff for your explanation.  Without it one could reasonably hypothesize that a fair fraction of the rational behind the action was simply a personal agreement that Iran as a nation and the Iranian people themselves are in 'our' way and should be squashed.  Lots of people seem to feel this way and I personally feel that it is ugly, inhuman, and a crime against humanity (but that is neither here nor there.)

Someone stated smartly in THE Bitcoin Foundation thread that we need to separate de Bitcoin project from the USA.

Now we have USA devs, working in a Washington based foundation and forums with USA moderators fearing USA laws censoring worldwide users.

Fuck, I need a hamburguer now    Angry Angry Angry

I have to say that I'm starting to agree with this. If the people in the US are too afraid of the US government, we have a problem. I'm not saying they shouldn't be afraid. Maybe they do need to be afraid. What I'm saying is that maybe we need to decentralize a little more. Having so many "major players" of Bitcoin in the US is not necessarily a very good thing.

I rather small minority of people seemed to have some concerns in the discussion about the formation of the Bitcoin Foundation, and this event seems to be among a class of issues that I had some qualms about.  Whether Jeff's actions had much if anything to do with the Bitcoin Foundation I don't know.  I do hope that as Bitcoin Foundation evolves some of the potential liabilities that it brings into existence will be considered and some thought put towards how to minimize them.


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December 01, 2012, 07:04:47 AM
 #216

If you think bitcoin can right now sustain a targeted cyber attack, you are dead wrong.
This seems like a bug.

(gasteve on IRC) Does your website accept cash? https://bitpay.com
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December 01, 2012, 07:18:52 AM
 #217

If you think bitcoin can right now sustain a targeted cyber attack, you are dead wrong.
This seems like a bug.

Hopefully it more like a bug than like a feature.  I wouldn't have an interest in Bitcoin if I thought so (using the term 'interest' in several ways.)

To me it sounds like a simple statement of fact by someone who knows his shit.  In all of my speculation in BTC itself considerations of the Bitcoin solution and of other possible similar solutions, I have deliberately made the basic assumption that Jeff's statement is true (while hoping it is not.)  This is why Bitcoin to be yet pretty experimental and a pretty risky place to park net worth.


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December 01, 2012, 07:20:51 AM
Last edit: December 01, 2012, 07:32:05 AM by cunicula
 #218

If you think bitcoin can right now sustain a targeted cyber attack, you are dead wrong.
This seems like a bug.

Hmm. Of course, I agree that bitcoin is extremely vulnerable. But what type of attack are we talking about here? The message is vague.

You are exploiting vague, unverifiable fears in order to encourage obedience. It is a dirty trick.

Can you make the concerns explicit and verifiable instead? This would keep everyone honest and rational. If not, it is probably best to avoid discussion of the issue entirely.


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December 01, 2012, 07:45:54 AM
 #219

If you think bitcoin can right now sustain a targeted cyber attack, you are dead wrong.
This seems like a bug.

Help fix it Smiley

Average people can help simply by running a full node that accepts incoming connections from the Internet.  Just download the client and run it, 24/7 -- ideally with an empty wallet for maximum security.  Or maybe make a bitcoin clone of torservers.net, a vehicle where people may donate to strengthen the network.

The wider spread, on different IP networks, the better.  Our accessible P2P network is something like 0.2% the size of the Azureus Island (total accessible Azureus/Vuze), and an even smaller fraction of the total active-at-any-one-time bittorrent userbase.  In file sharing terms, we are barely to the level of a popular torrent.

If you can afford it, get an ASIC or FPGA unit, and mine.  Mine p2pool or at a smaller pool, rather than a big pool.  The more decentralized the mining power, the better.  But even just running a full node is a huge contribution.

Test the pre-release of the next Bitcoin client, 0.8.  Automated, might-crash-and-eat-your-data builds at http://jenkins.bluematt.me/job/Bitcoin/  

If you are a programmer, help implement and test SPV mode clients.  There is a long list of projects that will improve the decentralization, performance, diversity and resilience of the network, that simply are not coded yet.  There are many tests, but many more need writing. There are high standards, but we will answer all technical questions if you have the patience to ask them!  This is one of those engineering projects where any mistake can be, literally, costly.

And that is just the technical side.  On the cultural side, do something that makes bitcoins interesting, appealing and friendly to others.  Pick a project, an idea, a blog post that gets people excited about bitcoin in a positive, uplifting way.  Think about how bitcoin can improve a person's or business's way of life.


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December 01, 2012, 07:55:25 AM
 #220

The wider spread, on different IP networks, the better.  Our accessible P2P network is something like 0.2% the size of the Azureus Island (total accessible Azureus/Vuze), and an even smaller fraction of the total active-at-any-one-time bittorrent userbase.  In file sharing terms, we are barely to the level of a popular torrent.
Have any devs ever talked about maybe making BitTorrent client plugins that act as a Bitcoin node (with empty wallet?) as a step to piggybacking on BitTorrent popularity. The added traffic would be trivial in comparison to file downloading. If getting the node count up is important then this seems like it has potential.

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