jgarzik goes berzerk in #bitcoin-dev, wtf?

[EhVedadoOAnonimato]

What options do we have when governments attack the dev team? The fact that someone in the team is afraid is a genuine problem.

They wouldn't need to "attack" them. I'm more and more convinced that just a polite request would be enough for Garzik to implement the perfect surveillance tool for the state to link addresses to people and monitor every flow of coins. Hell, he's trying to implement it right now, in anticipation.

Sad.

[casascius]

There is supposed to be such a thing as freedom of speech and there should be a limit on what kind of crap we take from the governments.

This is what Julian Assange thinks too.  The price he is paying in actual freedom is the disparity between what should be, and what actually is.

[casascius]

jgarzik  is intelligent, he looks long term, and wants bitcoin to succeed. Some people don't see the big picture.

+1

[Technomage]

I think I'm taking it too seriously but my history as an IRC veteran sort of heats it up. I tend to get emotional if there is unjust moderation and now that two of the things that I love are involved in the same dispute (IRC & Bitcoin), it heats things up for me. I do get the opposite point of view very well but I think there is a difference between being caucious and smart, and being afraid and in panic. I really don't see a reason to panic.

[memvola]

Kick/ban = panic.

Normal reaction for brainwashed western citizens when they hear something about Iran.

They tend to forget that 80 million Iranians hate their crazy government too...

Even I hate it more than I did just this morning.

By the way, this NSA/SHA-2 burden doesn't exist for Litecoin. I've always seen LTC as redundant, but this is something to think about. What other algorithms do we use that is regulated by states?

[mccorvic]

They wouldn't need to "attack" them. I'm more and more convinced that just a polite request would be enough for Garzik to implement the perfect surveillance tool for the state to link addresses to people and monitor every flow of coins. Hell, he's trying to implement it right now, in anticipation.

Sad.

Isn't this why bitcoin is open source? So, you could check on this sorta thing?

I don't think this is as unreasonable as you guys are making it sound.  If you believe in the legalization of certain drugs you might partake/sell those drugs, but I doubt any of you would go around and openly brag and announce that you are doing so in a way that can be tied directly back to you by law enforcement.  No one here is complaining that people on Silk Road aren't using their real names and posting their addresses openly.  

Caution and realism =! cowardice.

Guys, there's a real chance here for real discussion/debate but too many of you are just going full-on hyperbolic drama queen.

[Herodes]

I think I'm taking it too seriously but my history as an IRC veteran sort of heats it up. I tend to get emotional if there is unjust moderation and now that two of the things that I love are involved in the same dispute (IRC & Bitcoin), it heats things up for me. I do get the opposite point of view very well but I think there is a difference between being caucious and smart, and being afraid and in panic. I really don't see a reason to panic.

It's quite clear that you're clouded by emotions. I think Gavin is a good example about how to handle situations like that very well. When his blood starts to boil. He backs off and takes a couple of days offline.

For all we know, Jgarzik just had a shitty day, and didn't feel like being diplomatic. Interpreting too much from this is not necessary.

[Remember remember the 5th of November]

I don't understand. What is wrong with Iran?

[robocoin]

This discussion isn't about politics, but about fear. I am seeing a disturbing trend in Bitcoin development towards centralization with e-wallets (bitcoincard), tainting, coloring, proof-of-stake, etc. It is what it is. The threat from the state is real.

This thread clearly show who's has no idea about how far a state threat can go. They can't destroy Bitcoin but they can destroy my savings and my joy. So thank you jgarzikfor making a point.

And:

I would not have banned Jeremias. (And he's welcome on this forum.) We aren't likely to gain much ground by strictly following stupid laws and trying to change the political/legal environment. IMO, widespread agorism is the best way to reduce the government's control over us. Iran might be a good place to try this sort of thing on a large scale.

But in case I'm wrong, it's probably not so bad to have parts of the Bitcoin community that are more concerned about laws. Just so long as our most important principles don't get lost while trying to follow laws.

Why all this drama? (Ja ok I know why) Just make a special "Iran and Bitcoin Discussion" on this forum and watch what's happening.

people get kicked off and banned from irc channels all the time often for no serious reason at all. Get over it.

The world is a place with shades of grey, don't be so black and white.

This.

[Technomage]

For all we know, Jgarzik just had a shitty day, and didn't feel like being diplomatic. Interpreting too much from this is not necessary.

I hope that is the case. The problem is that I don't see Iran in the same way as many of US citizens see it. For me Iran is actually in an equal position to US in terms of how I view it as a country. That makes my reaction very different. People in this thread accept this behaviour because they silently support the oppression of Iran. I don't support it for one nanosecond.

Thankfully Bitcoin is not just about the U, S and A. There are plenty of others and hopefully the group of others will get bigger. Especially in places that really need it. Yes, those places we don't want to discuss, ever.

[casascius]

For all we know, Jgarzik just had a shitty day, and didn't feel like being diplomatic. Interpreting too much from this is not necessary.

I hope that is the case. The problem is that I don't see Iran in the same way as many of US citizens see it. For me Iran is actually in an equal position to US in terms of how I view it as a country. That makes my reaction very different. People in this thread accept this behaviour because they silently support the oppression of Iran. I don't support it for one nanosecond.

I don't support the oppression of Iran either.  In fact, neither do most US citizens.

I also don't support the war on drugs, but that doesn't mean I'm about to use or sell drugs where I can be readily identified.  Nor am I about to create a commemorative "Silk Road" Casascius Coin, or a "Silk Road Gift Certificate" paper wallet generator, or print "buy drugs with this xxxblahxxblahblah.onion" in my banknote backside artwork, even though I could, and actually would totally love to.  I'll just let somebody else do that.

[paulie_w]

the only acceptable explanation is that jgarzik knows something about the technical limitations (weaknesses, vulnerabilities) of the currency as it stands. anything else is extremely suspicious.

[mccorvic]

I hope that is the case. The problem is that I don't see Iran in the same way as many of US citizens see it. For me Iran is actually in an equal position to US in terms of how I view it as a country. That makes my reaction very different. People in this thread accept this behaviour because they silently support the oppression of Iran. I don't support it for one nanosecond.

Ah, come on dawg.  You know that most, if not all, people here don't silently support the oppression.  We are having a disagreement on how we could best oppose it without being arrested/BTC compromised.  Keep the hyperbole out and you'll get a much better discussion here.

[Technomage]

I don't support the oppression of Iran either.  In fact, neither do most US citizens.

I also don't support the war on drugs, but that doesn't mean I'm about to use or sell drugs where I can be readily identified.  Nor am I about to create a commemorative "Silk Road" Casascius Coin, or a "Silk Road Gift Certificate" paper wallet generator, or print "buy drugs with this xxxblahxxblahblah.onion" in my banknote backside artwork, even though I could, and actually would totally love to.

I'm glad to hear that, but I would again like to mention the big difference between Silk Road and "selling drugs", or "using drugs". I don't personally support using or selling drugs, I really don't, but I do support Silk Road 100%. Silk Road is an anonymous marketplace that allows free individuals to trade. That is good. I'm also not against voluntary usage of drugs by adults.

It's important that the Bitcoin community starts to differentiate Silk Road and drugs. It's true that a significant amount of trade in Silk Road involves drugs, but not everything, and it doesn't need to be that way. We should not be afraid to use services such as Silk Road, for other things. Why not? It's not illegal to use Silk Road. Using it for drug trade is a totally different thing and I understand being super caucious when something like that is mentioned. But don't be afraid if Silk Road in general is mentioned.

[Technomage]

Ah, come on dawg.  You know that most, if not all, people here don't silently support the oppression.  We are having a disagreement on how we could best oppose it without being arrested/BTC compromised.  Keep the hyperbole out and you'll get a much better discussion here.

That is not what I'm seeing. If we go back to the original IRC chat, it was eventually about simply translating Bitcoin software and services to Farsi. That was the final discussion, until it was cut off by a ban. I think that simply translating our software is definitely opposing the oppression but in a fairly silent way. No one has been suggesting a promo campaign to get Bitcoin to Iran, as I've said before.

I would like to get this discussion to where it stopped thanks to Jeff, which is translating Bitcoin services to Farsi. What do you guys think about that? Bitcoin-Qt specifically. LocalBitcoins is already being translated, this episode put some nice motivation to do that.

[casascius]

I would like to get this discussion to where it stopped thanks to Jeff, which is translating Bitcoin services to Farsi. What do you guys think about that? Bitcoin-Qt specifically. LocalBitcoins is already being translated, this episode put some nice motivation to do that.

I will bet nobody in the channel speaks Farsi, so what is there to productively discuss, and why would it involve the core dev team?

It would be a different story if what was brought up was: "I just submitted pull #1234 which adds some new language support."

[mccorvic]

That is not what I'm seeing. If we go back to the original IRC chat, it was eventually about simply translating Bitcoin software and services to Farsi. That was the final discussion, until it was cut off by a ban. I think that simply translating our software is definitely opposing the oppression but in a fairly silent way. No one has been suggesting a promo campaign to get Bitcoin to Iran, as I've said before.

I would like to get this discussion to where it stopped thanks to Jeff, which is translating Bitcoin services to Farsi. What do you guys think about that? Bitcoin-Qt specifically. LocalBitcoins is already being translated, this episode put some nice motivation to do that.

I think translating into Farsi is fine and a wonderful idea and, of course, perfectly legal.  

I imagine that jgarzik was just agitated enough by the conversation that came at the start that he saw it as being tied directly to "translate to farsi in order to send BTC directly to Iran".  I don't blame him for seeing that way.  I imagine that if nothing had been mentioned about Iran and the idea of translating casually came up there wouldn't have been any trouble.

[casascius]

I think translating into Farsi is fine and a wonderful idea and, of course, perfectly legal.  

I imagine that jgarzik was just agitated enough by the conversation that came at the start that he saw it as being tied directly to "translate to farsi in order to send BTC directly to Iran".  I don't blame him for seeing that way.  I imagine that if nothing had been mentioned about Iran and the idea of translating casually came up there wouldn't have been any trouble.

That's how I saw it too.

[Technomage]

Well, that's how I saw it as well, so we're in agreement. It still doesn't make it all good. This issue is perhaps smaller than all the drama here suggests but I would certainly like to hear Jeff's take on it at some point. I mean, jeremias himself is surprisingly calm about this. He is a calm guy. I would be furious in his position.

Maybe it is better to be safe and sorry but I still don't like this. At all.

[casascius]

but I would certainly like to hear Jeff's take on it at some point.

Would you like to hear Jeff's take on it when his words are on the record, or what Jeff's take on it would be if the two of you were sitting at a bar?  I don't know Jeff personally, but my reading of the situation suggests they'd be drastically different.