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Author Topic: Qora | POS | Assets | Names | Polls | Automated Transactions | Social Network  (Read 249383 times)
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October 29, 2018, 03:10:49 PM
 #3281

Are there synchronous data downloads available? I update for more than 3 days and always fail. I can't update block data.

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October 29, 2018, 09:46:09 PM
Last edit: February 25, 2019, 09:41:39 PM by wgd
 #3282

Are there synchronous data downloads available? I update for more than 3 days and always fail. I can't update block data.


I have no problem with qora wallet synchronization, try using these seeds

92.222.182.121
148.163.20.188
192.34.108.212


            ▄██▄▄
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qortal

Decentralized Internet
Infrastructure of the Future
 
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October 30, 2018, 02:02:30 AM
 #3283

next update is great, from which nothing results.

Months have passed, there is no website, no exchange. There are a lot of ideas for that, every week a different concept for qora, hallelujah  Tongue Tongue

New round of ICO for the new chain might change developers minds and give it another shot.

Question is, are people willing to throw some extra BTC at a reboot of Qora or do people just want free coins for doing nothing?

There was already and ICO and the current devs are not a part of it. Doing another ICO would mean a swap and create more coin. But instead Crow is Honoring the ICO / coin holders since the codebase is being used and modified. These holders are now Liquidity providers and look to be compensated as if they were an Exchange but decentralized. So no ICO would be needed since Q2 will be a Monatization of its own through PoW or some other function. It seems like honoring the current coin holders by not diluting their shares would be a preference and puts less pressure on the current devs also. I think this path of least resistance is the best option and the functionality makes Q1 stand out to where it has a usefulness to the coin instead of just trading it endlessly back and forth.

Now also any Q1 holders will know about Q2 and can leverage the platform there also. It is like Q1 is also a springboard into Q2 and Q2 will still need Q1 for Liquidity. No ICO either so this is a free entry and market. Best of Both worlds!

How will it be diluted if the coin is worth almost $0 at the moment? There is no volume and one exchange no one know who is operating.

What I was trying to get at is that maybe the devs need some incentive to continue, all I keep seeing is "I bought years ago and now want my speculative investment to make me lots of $$$"

Tell me, which is better: A new round of funding so the devs can be paid for their work (they have to eat and pay living expenses after all) or just hold onto something that will most likely be forgotten soon.

The fact that the amount of coin would be more, would mean a dilution. That's what he meant.


To answer the ICO questions, as straightforward as possible... simply this... - I will not be taking part in an ICO that doesn't have a REALLY good reason to be an ICO, which includes having a functioning and used platform worthy of requesting funding via that ICO.

Simply put, I 99.9% of the time, am ANTI-ICO.



The payment of the devs, is something I am handling myself, regardless of the fact that I am not an original QORA holder.


We have taken the existing platform and fixed it, added more functionality, and addressed many issues. We didn't HAVE to do this. We could have let QORA die, fork a new project, and done a bunch of nonsense like the other idiots, and gotten a bunch of money for nothing. But we did NOT do that. We are for HONESTY. Getting money for nothing, is NOT honest.


That being said, I understand the fact that we have thrown many ideas out there recently. This is to retain OPENNESS AND TRANSPARENCY to the community. To let them know what is going on, what we are thinking, etc. Until recently, we didn't have anything 'set in stone' as far as how we will move forward. However, now, we do.



Gen 1 QORA - Will be 'QORA'.

Gen 2 - Will be a totally different project, with reliance upon Gen 1.

There will be NO SWAP, but instead, solid ways for QORA holders to make gains on their coins, and/or an easy way to sell for the people who don't believe we're doing what we say. Simple, right? I think so.



QORA - will become a trade gateway (or a 'DEX' if you prefer that term, but we do not.) where the people providing liquidity on the markets, get rewarded for doing so.

The method of obtaining these rewards, will be through the utilization of methods taken from Karmaship and other ideas. Utilizing 'SuperNodes', and liquidity on the Decentralized Trade Portal 'order books' to give 'weight' to the SuperNodes.

The larger your buy support orders, and the higher price, the more you will earn. Every detail hasn't been fully worked out here.



The website - we have not put it up, because frankly, it doesn't matter yet. It will be put up when it matters. Having a website doesn't mean anything, it's cool for when you have information to get to people, but right now we don't. There is simply no need for a website.

I do, however, retain the ownership of the qora.org domain. Along with multiple 'core nodes' that have supported the network for a couple years now.


QORA - will have value because it will be a decentralized trade portal. The existing coins will be used to 'power' the portal. Utilizing them as means to post orders, etc.

The portal's UI will be built ON QORA. Making it fully accessible via either a hosted node, or a local one.


The 'supported coins' will come slowly but surely, starting of course, with BTC, and LTC.



The portal's 'power' being liquidity, means that people providing the reason for people to use the portal (the ones putting the coins up for people to sell into, etc.) will be rewarded.

The 'fees' for placing orders, which in our case will be by a simple modification of placed orders done by the UI itself, will also go to the SuperNode holders (liquidity providers.)



What we have been referring to as 'Gen 2' will be a totally new platform with a new name (which hasn't been decided yet.) This platform will be focused on media in multiple ways. Becoming a blogging/vlogging/chat platform, and much more.

This platform will utilize a bunch of new methods to reward its users, and to create a system with a REAL 'level' system to show who actually supports the network and who doesn't. Then utilizing this, provide a GREAT method for voting, which isn't reliant upon coin count but instead network 'reputation' or 'trust'.

This will be done in a fashion similar to an MMO, making it fun, and 'quirky' and game-like. This will entice users to raise their account's level, gain influence on the network, etc.

Also the implementation of 'proof of burn' where users can burn their newly created coins only, in exchange for a lowered mining difficulty and level increase at a higher pace.

We may also tie in with Karmaship and make use of their 'proof of experience' algo as well, in one way or another. Again, not all of these ideas are fully formulated.



The 'Gen 2' platform, will be reliant upon Gen 1 for all trades it needs, and also CrowdFunding via the SmartContract powered totally decentralized 'Qrowd' (or QrowdFund as it is called pre-name-change.)

All of these things will work seamlessly together, and will be TOTALLY INDEPENDENT OF ANY CENTRAL CONTROL. This means QORA cannot DIE, or be heavily manipulated by any centralized party. It will not be reliant upon exchanges, or anything else. This will make it unique, and one of the only FULLY INDEPENDENT BLOCKCHAIN PLATFORMS. Meaning, it won't need anything to trade with BTC, and multiple other projects, nor will it need anything from anyone at all in order to function with all other intended functions.


BTC directly will be acceptable for most any service on the networks of the platforms. Making this also a totally unique feature. Multiple other decentralized applications, REALLY decentralized applications, can be built atop either platform, and/or built from clone platforms, and then easily tied into the others, to leverage their value and services.



I realize these things are all long-term and will likely take some time. But if you recall, I have said this from the beginning.


Also, remember, we have NOT BEEN PAID ANYTHING, and I have put a SIGNIFICANT amount of funding FROM MY OWN POCKET, into the development of the platform.


IF YOU DON'T REALIZE THINGS ARE GOING ON DEVELOPMENT WISE, YOU MUST NOT KNOW HOW TO USE GOOGLE. As the information is clearly there in the github, multiple new changes happening frequently. The main dev is frequently commenting here as well.


JUST BECAUSE THERE IS NO EXCHANGE AND NO WEBSITE ONLINE RIGHT NOW, does NOT mean that the project is not being worked on. In fact, the reliance upon an exchange is a BIG PROBLEM, one which we intend to solve once and for all.


Feel free to ask any other questions and I will answer them to the best of my ability. Thank you.






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ORTAL
    ..Web and Application hosting.
     ⊙ decentralized infrastructure
    ..leveling and voting.
| https://qortal.org - Infrastructure for the future World
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[/td][/tr][/table]

[/table]
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October 30, 2018, 04:46:13 AM
 #3284

Are there synchronous data downloads available? I update for more than 3 days and always fail. I can't update block data.


I have no problem with qora wallet synchronization, I had a state 2 weeks ago. try using these seeds

92.222.182.121
148.163.20.188
192.34.108.212
Should I build a qora.conf file?
Addnode=92.222.182.121
Addnode=148.163.20.188
Addnode=192.34.108.212
Do you want to fill in the node address?
Where should I put him?

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October 30, 2018, 08:53:02 AM
 #3285

Are there synchronous data downloads available? I update for more than 3 days and always fail. I can't update block data.


I have no problem with qora wallet synchronization, I had a state 2 weeks ago. try using these seeds

92.222.182.121
148.163.20.188
192.34.108.212
Should I build a qora.conf file?
Do you want to fill in the node address?
Where should I put him?

If you want to add peer IP addresses, there are 3 ways:

1. add them via the GUI by:
File menu,
Settings menu entry,
Known Peers tab,
type in the IP address in the entry box to the right of Add new address:,
click Add button,
click Apply button

2. add them to knownpeers entry in peers.json:
Code:
{
    "knownpeers": [
        "192.34.108.211",
        "192.34.108.212",
        "192.34.108.213",
        "192.34.108.214"
    ]
}

3. add them to knownpeers entry in settings.json:
Code:
{
    "checkpoint":true,

    ... other entries in settings.json omitted here for clarity ...

    "knownpeers": [
        "192.34.108.211",
        "192.34.108.212",
        "192.34.108.213",
        "192.34.108.214"
    ]
}

If you are running Qora on Windows then you should find your peers.json and settings.json files in %APPDATA%\Qora\
One easy way of getting to this folder is to just open the Run dialog (Windows Key + R) and type %appdata% in the “Open” box, and click OK.
After that, navigate to the Qora folder.

If you download the latest release (v0.26.11) from github then it will come ready-configured with up-to-date peers list.
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October 30, 2018, 01:52:51 PM
 #3286

I'm pretty sure I followed up with this but just in case anyone doesn't know:

Poloniex got back to me on 11th Sept with this:

Quote
Hi catbref,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention.  The engineering team has cleaned up the missing withdrawals.  Please let us know if you hear of any more issues.

Best,
Poloniex Support Team

So if you've have a pending withdrawal ticket before the 11th, or you withdrew but the funds 'disappeared', then it might be a good idea to open a fresh ticket with Polo to withdraw your Qora to your wallet.
Don't forget to use the latest release v0.26.11 instead of the old v0.26.0 (or worse) as there have been tons of bugs fixed since then.

If anyone does open a fresh withdrawal ticket, please report back with success or otherwise.

In other news, on Friday we had a Qora v2 node synced up to date with blocks fed from a v0.26.11 node. The main hurdle to this milestone was the [re]implementation of CIYAM AT library.
The previous CIYAM AT code was too tightly integrated with Qora and MapDB to re-use. The new library is built to be coin-independent so can be imported into other coins, which allows more atomic cross-chain transfers (ACCT).

BTC-Qora ACCTs have been demonstrated but we still need a user-friendly way of building them, maybe a website, maybe a Qora2 plug-in.

that's what i got from polo yesterday!


Thanks for contacting our support team, and thank you for your patience in regards to this open case.

QORA was delisted from our exchange and its wallet was removed from Poloniex. At this time, it is not possible to access this coin. Your balance is now archived and is no longer available for withdrawal.

Circle aims to provide customers with the most innovative projects that fuel the industry and to ensure the assets meet the high standards customers deserve, which is why we created the Circle Asset Framework. Under the Circle Asset Framework, we consider listing or delisting assets based on whether the asset has sufficient trading volume, whether it aligns with the core tenets of the crypto community, whether it is backed by robust technology, whether it creates real value for a meaningful number of customers, and whether it’s backed by a strong, experienced team. In addition, we also consider other factors such as new guidance from regulators.
 
While we understand your frustration, this asset doesn't align with our Circle Asset Framework. If it becomes accessible again in the future, we will be sure to let all affected customers know.
 
Please let us know if you have any additional questions about your account in the future and we will be happy to help.

Best,
Poloniex Support Team
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November 02, 2018, 01:00:08 AM
 #3287

I'm pretty sure I followed up with this but just in case anyone doesn't know:

Poloniex got back to me on 11th Sept with this:

Quote
Hi catbref,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention.  The engineering team has cleaned up the missing withdrawals.  Please let us know if you hear of any more issues.

Best,
Poloniex Support Team

So if you've have a pending withdrawal ticket before the 11th, or you withdrew but the funds 'disappeared', then it might be a good idea to open a fresh ticket with Polo to withdraw your Qora to your wallet.
Don't forget to use the latest release v0.26.11 instead of the old v0.26.0 (or worse) as there have been tons of bugs fixed since then.

If anyone does open a fresh withdrawal ticket, please report back with success or otherwise.

In other news, on Friday we had a Qora v2 node synced up to date with blocks fed from a v0.26.11 node. The main hurdle to this milestone was the [re]implementation of CIYAM AT library.
The previous CIYAM AT code was too tightly integrated with Qora and MapDB to re-use. The new library is built to be coin-independent so can be imported into other coins, which allows more atomic cross-chain transfers (ACCT).

BTC-Qora ACCTs have been demonstrated but we still need a user-friendly way of building them, maybe a website, maybe a Qora2 plug-in.

that's what i got from polo yesterday!


Thanks for contacting our support team, and thank you for your patience in regards to this open case.

QORA was delisted from our exchange and its wallet was removed from Poloniex. At this time, it is not possible to access this coin. Your balance is now archived and is no longer available for withdrawal.

Circle aims to provide customers with the most innovative projects that fuel the industry and to ensure the assets meet the high standards customers deserve, which is why we created the Circle Asset Framework. Under the Circle Asset Framework, we consider listing or delisting assets based on whether the asset has sufficient trading volume, whether it aligns with the core tenets of the crypto community, whether it is backed by robust technology, whether it creates real value for a meaningful number of customers, and whether it’s backed by a strong, experienced team. In addition, we also consider other factors such as new guidance from regulators.
 
While we understand your frustration, this asset doesn't align with our Circle Asset Framework. If it becomes accessible again in the future, we will be sure to let all affected customers know.
 
Please let us know if you have any additional questions about your account in the future and we will be happy to help.

Best,
Poloniex Support Team


Hah... wow.

They seem to be c/p answers to everyone. What exactly doesn't 'align with the circle framework'? Seems to me that QORA has had more than most other coin in terms of technology for many years now.

The only part about this that really sucks and matters, is the fact that you lost your existing balance on the exchange. The listing on the exchange itself doesn't matter all that much, as QORA will BE an exchange soon enough.


How many coins did you lose?



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ORTAL
    ..Web and Application hosting.
     ⊙ decentralized infrastructure
    ..leveling and voting.
| https://qortal.org - Infrastructure for the future World
            Founder/current dev group facilitator
[/td][/tr][/table]

[/table]
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November 02, 2018, 01:03:29 AM
 #3288

Also, I wanted to ensure that everyone knows...


Gen 2 QORA, will eventually be the backend for everything. So even existing QORA, while it is being turned into a trade gateway/portal, will attain the Gen 2 backend.


I want to ensure that people don't think we're stopping development on existing QORA once we make the social media platform. We are going to maintain existing QORA, just making it into a Trade Gateway that will be utilized for MANY projects/etc in the future.


The original idea of QORA, in terms of the social media aspect, needs a lot more added to it in order to be fully functional and to fit within regulations. Therefore we'll not be making 'QORA' into that, but instead a new platform built from the Gen 2 backend, with a new name.



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                   ▒▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓


ORTAL
    ..Web and Application hosting.
     ⊙ decentralized infrastructure
    ..leveling and voting.
| https://qortal.org - Infrastructure for the future World
            Founder/current dev group facilitator
[/td][/tr][/table]

[/table]
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November 02, 2018, 02:42:21 AM
 #3289

is this project still alive?

The project is very much alive and well.

In fact, things are moving along VERY well.


We are simply choosing to stay more quiet at the moment, until the time is right. I will make another announcement shortly.
Where did you get the signature of Qora?
Has been there signature campaign (with payments for participants)?

I had the signature made for me a couple years ago. It wasn't anything to do with a sig campaign or anything like that. Simply something I had made so that I could use it.



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                   ▒▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓


ORTAL
    ..Web and Application hosting.
     ⊙ decentralized infrastructure
    ..leveling and voting.
| https://qortal.org - Infrastructure for the future World
            Founder/current dev group facilitator
[/td][/tr][/table]

[/table]
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November 02, 2018, 03:36:21 AM
 #3290

Unable to retrieve my coin from Poloniex.

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November 02, 2018, 06:43:37 AM
 #3291

I'm pretty sure I followed up with this but just in case anyone doesn't know:

Poloniex got back to me on 11th Sept with this:

Quote
Hi catbref,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention.  The engineering team has cleaned up the missing withdrawals.  Please let us know if you hear of any more issues.

Best,
Poloniex Support Team

So if you've have a pending withdrawal ticket before the 11th, or you withdrew but the funds 'disappeared', then it might be a good idea to open a fresh ticket with Polo to withdraw your Qora to your wallet.
Don't forget to use the latest release v0.26.11 instead of the old v0.26.0 (or worse) as there have been tons of bugs fixed since then.

If anyone does open a fresh withdrawal ticket, please report back with success or otherwise.

In other news, on Friday we had a Qora v2 node synced up to date with blocks fed from a v0.26.11 node. The main hurdle to this milestone was the [re]implementation of CIYAM AT library.
The previous CIYAM AT code was too tightly integrated with Qora and MapDB to re-use. The new library is built to be coin-independent so can be imported into other coins, which allows more atomic cross-chain transfers (ACCT).

BTC-Qora ACCTs have been demonstrated but we still need a user-friendly way of building them, maybe a website, maybe a Qora2 plug-in.

that's what i got from polo yesterday!


Thanks for contacting our support team, and thank you for your patience in regards to this open case.

QORA was delisted from our exchange and its wallet was removed from Poloniex. At this time, it is not possible to access this coin. Your balance is now archived and is no longer available for withdrawal.

Circle aims to provide customers with the most innovative projects that fuel the industry and to ensure the assets meet the high standards customers deserve, which is why we created the Circle Asset Framework. Under the Circle Asset Framework, we consider listing or delisting assets based on whether the asset has sufficient trading volume, whether it aligns with the core tenets of the crypto community, whether it is backed by robust technology, whether it creates real value for a meaningful number of customers, and whether it’s backed by a strong, experienced team. In addition, we also consider other factors such as new guidance from regulators.
 
While we understand your frustration, this asset doesn't align with our Circle Asset Framework. If it becomes accessible again in the future, we will be sure to let all affected customers know.
 
Please let us know if you have any additional questions about your account in the future and we will be happy to help.

Best,
Poloniex Support Team


Hah... wow.

They seem to be c/p answers to everyone. What exactly doesn't 'align with the circle framework'? Seems to me that QORA has had more than most other coin in terms of technology for many years now.

The only part about this that really sucks and matters, is the fact that you lost your existing balance on the exchange. The listing on the exchange itself doesn't matter all that much, as QORA will BE an exchange soon enough.


How many coins did you lose?


10M

although in Vavgusta they sent a letter that I could withdraw Qora at any convenient time !!!
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November 02, 2018, 11:06:37 PM
 #3292

Do I understand correctly? Sema100 offered to sell qora by holding them on poloniex desync wallet? what were you waiting for? after all, it was obvious  Embarrassed


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qortal

Decentralized Internet
Infrastructure of the Future
 
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November 04, 2018, 02:31:32 PM
 #3293

Unable to retrieve my coin from Poloniex.

I'm very sorry with you that had lost your coins in Poloniex. ( and also Sema100).
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November 05, 2018, 05:42:50 AM
 #3294

Unable to retrieve my coin from Poloniex.

I'm very sorry with you that had lost your coins in Poloniex. ( and also Sema100).


After a lot of controversy, the polo starts updating the Qora wallet. This was reported to me by a polo support a couple of days ago.
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November 05, 2018, 11:47:36 AM
 #3295

Unable to retrieve my coin from Poloniex.

I'm very sorry with you that had lost your coins in Poloniex. ( and also Sema100).


After a lot of controversy, the polo starts updating the Qora wallet. This was reported to me by a polo support a couple of days ago.

Nice to here that. May be you and others can get QORA coins from Polo.
I wish to see that all QORA holders very happy at the end of this year.
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November 05, 2018, 11:59:38 AM
 #3296

Where can I find more info about the Social Network?
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November 05, 2018, 01:38:32 PM
 #3297

Where can I find more info about the Social Network?
https://discordapp.com
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November 06, 2018, 10:37:03 PM
Last edit: November 06, 2018, 10:48:29 PM by crowetic
 #3298

Where can I find more info about the Social Network?


The social media aspect of QORA at the moment, is in the integrated blogs that QORA has by default.

You can see an idea of what I'm talking about here. This is one blog located on top of the QORA blockchain, of which you're accessing through a hosted node that I run. - http://node6.qora.org:9090/index/blog.html?blogname=mystery.man


However, the current version of QORA is going to be turned into a trade platform, Q-Trade Portal, which will be directly cross-chain BTC, LTC, etc to QORA trades. It will accommodate other coins, tokens, and 'vouchers' in the future as well.


The social media aspect is to be turned into a totally new platform which will essentially be 'QORA 2' but with a different name. In this idea, the platform will be powered by a few new ideas, and include an account 'leveling system' for keeping track of account influence, and 'proof of burn' to keep people funneling newly created coins into a burn pile that will increase their account level.

The account level will be a 'voting power' setup, as well as a factor in play in regards to mining difficulty.

The higher the level of your account, the lower the mining difficulty you get, and the more influence on the network in terms of voting power, and upvote/downvote influence for the upvoting/downvoting of content on the platform.



This will open the door for good content creators to easily make a name for themselves in the decentralized ecosystem, and make good money from their content. It will also provide a 'real' voting system that will allow for even 'traditional' voting for even things like elected officials and so forth, to potentially be done atop the platform. This will be a true voting system not tied to the number of coins in a wallet.



'Gen 2' which is the next generation 'core' of QORA, will be the thing that allows all of this to take place. It is very close to completion by our lead dev, and we should have it being implemented into Karmaship (the first QORA clone project you can read about here https://karmaship.io, and the main partner of QORA...) as well as the Trade Portal that QORA now will be, and of course, Qora2, which we have yet to come up with a name for. It may be that we call it something with QORA in the name, as I really like the QORA name and the Q that could replace the first letter of the Qora DApps, such as Qrowd (QORA's decentralized automated SmartContract based CrowdFunding platform.)



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ORTAL
    ..Web and Application hosting.
     ⊙ decentralized infrastructure
    ..leveling and voting.
| https://qortal.org - Infrastructure for the future World
            Founder/current dev group facilitator
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November 16, 2018, 05:30:38 PM
 #3299

-UPDATE- Next Generation 'core' for QORA nearing completion, improving many aspects of QORA, and allowing for greater scalability, new functionality, and more!


Hello everyone,

     I have recently discussed the situation with cat, and  he has explained to me that I should be able to obtain a demo of the BTC-QORA cross-chain SmartContract, and Generation 2 core very soon! I'm quite excited for this!

The new version will contain within a completely re-written from scratch database and networking layer that adds many new functions, speed improvements, database size improvements, increased scalability and much more!


Along with that, the commissioned development for the SmartContract that will make BTC-QORA cross-chain direct trading, is also complete (on the back end.) This is the first step in creation of the decentralized trade portal that existing QORA will become. This opens doors for QORA to be made into one of the very first easy to use TRULY DECENTRALIZED 'exchanges'. (The reason to have exchange in quotes, is that we are not calling it an exchange, but instead a 'trade portal' due to the fact that there is still reliance upon the block times of coins involved in the trades, for 'finalization' of the trade itself.) However, we have made the SmartContract automate the final 'steps' of the ACCT process, allowing 'order books' to be created, where users can place an order, and another can accept, leaving the last steps to automatically complete and execute the actual trade. This should not only make things very easy to understand, and use... but also potentially create the easiest truly decentralized cross-chain trading platform available.


There are a few unresolved 'issues' in regards to existing QORA coins, and what to do there... as there have been many coins lost, locked in exchanges, stolen, etc... over the turbulent life of QORA. So we have a few remaining 'hurdles' to jump in that regard, and will need to finalize a solid idea for the future there.

I think there are a couple ideas in regard to the above, such as potentially increasing the total cap a bit, taking into consideration an estimate on the number of 'missing' coins... then allowing those coins to be re-input into the ecosystem via SuperNodes+Minting.


I have a couple great ideas related to 'minting' and SuperNodes as well, but need a little bit more time in which to finalize the full thought process. Will post more soon.





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ORTAL
    ..Web and Application hosting.
     ⊙ decentralized infrastructure
    ..leveling and voting.
| https://qortal.org - Infrastructure for the future World
            Founder/current dev group facilitator
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November 16, 2018, 07:20:54 PM
 #3300

it'd be interesting to see how many QORA still exist - I think I still have access to mine somewhere
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