[ANN] Terracoin (TRC) - Est 2012

[zx9r]

How much funds do you estimate that will be necesary to implement dash masternodes into trc ?

[clockuniverse]

At current price, it only costs 1.73 BTC (1800 USD) a month for the mining rewards. This is very cheap. Even if we have 10 people want to invest into TRC, 180 USD a month is too cheap if they want to have an insurance of the future. So calculate yourself. As long as the project can survive 10 years or 100 years, it will have a bright future. It already survived 5 years.

My idea is that we can just wait, if the price is low, it will attract users and even developers, they can buy it and then improve it.
The only thing we need to care about is the security, we should care about the security of the network, the security of the exchanges, the security of the wallets/clients.

Dash has been designed well, but followers will change the economy? I doubt that. The crowd will always go for the first winner. Just like Bitcoin, Ethereum or Dash.

Yes, that is very cheap but we aren't able to attract users or investors to offset that, so the price slowly crumbles.

TRC is very secure and adding decentralized management and instant send will have no effect on that.

I am not trying to attract followers of DASH.  I am trying to attract core developers with visions for the future.  We cannot improve the wallet, code, website, or anything else without people helping out and no one is willing to help out without getting paid. 

Donations do not work.

Developers and new users are not attracted to a coin that slowly loses price and has no ability to keep changing with the times because it doesn't have a core team.
 
Decentralized management helps attract a core team.


Look.  Terracoin needs to branch out on it's own and to do this we need more then just me.  This is the best solution for that because we don't have a core development team to work on our own stuff.

Personally I'm way too lazy for any voting if it does not concern my everyday life. Crypto should be easy to use and effortless, I think.

You can't vote unless you run a masternode and if you are just a user then it will have no effect on you at all, except the coin and it's services will continue to get updated.  You also will have instant send.

How much funds do you estimate that will be necesary to implement dash masternodes into trc ?

I'm not sure.  Mrbodz said he is busy will school right now.  I will see if he recommends anyone else.

[bitbonbon]

I think core developer should have at least 2% of the coin supply to be really interested.

[hanzac]

I think core developer should have at least 2% of the coin supply to be really interested.

You are right. If someone is capable and he wants to invest and gets return, he needs to buy in. Dash voting is not important although it's convenient.
At current price, 2% is not much, I think it's less than Dash masternode price.
Let's just wait and see.

[clockuniverse]

I think core developer should have at least 2% of the coin supply to be really interested.

You are right. If someone is capable and he wants to invest and gets return, he needs to buy in. Dash voting is not important although it's convenient.
At current price, 2% is not much, I think it's less than Dash masternode price.
Let's just wait and see.

Somebody was being silly and reported my  post so it got removed.

2% of the coin supply is like 380,000 TRC so I thought you were joking.

I was thinking more like 20% of the payments to the decentralized governance would be paid out to the developers in 4 different brackets.  Very part time, part time, almost full time, and full time.  We would have to come up with how many people we want to add to the team and further cut that amount up. This proposal would be for 6 months and after that time we could readjust to make it larger or smaller.

The DASH voting is the whole point of adding the decentralized management to TRC.

A DASH masternode costs about $95,000 USD now and I am not sure how it relates to paying people to add the DASH masternodes code to TRC.

[hanzac]

I think core developer should have at least 2% of the coin supply to be really interested.

You are right. If someone is capable and he wants to invest and gets return, he needs to buy in. Dash voting is not important although it's convenient.
At current price, 2% is not much, I think it's less than Dash masternode price.
Let's just wait and see.

Somebody was being silly and reported my  post so it got removed.

2% of the coin supply is like 380,000 TRC so I thought you were joking.

I was thinking more like 20% of the payments to the decentralized governance would be paid out to the developers in 4 different brackets.  Very part time, part time, almost full time, and full time.  We would have to come up with how many people we want to add to the team and further cut that amount up. This proposal would be for 6 months and after that time we could readjust to make it larger or smaller.

The DASH voting is the whole point of adding the decentralized management to TRC.

A DASH masternode costs about $95,000 USD now and I am not sure how it relates to paying people to add the DASH masternodes code to TRC.

I mean at the current price. If anyone is interested to develop, he can just buy in, no need to ask for donation or bounty. But any way, collaboration is also important.
Dash's voting/governance is a way of collaboration. It maybe suit for a coin with such marketcap. But I don't think it's suit for coins with smaller marketcap.
For example:
   Developer A want's to develop a software feature, it will need 2 months to complete. Average salary for a developer is 8000 USD. So it will need 16000 USD, around 3500000 TRC! Around 20 % of the total supply.

Do you think it's feasible?

Even with the first step, implement the masternode/voting system, I think if 1~2 very capable developers to complete coding/testing (even copy & paste from Dash), I think it will at least need 1 month. That means 10000 USD is a minimum.

That's why I think you should forget about the Dash masternode/voting.

TRC evolve slowly by itself is the most feasible option right now, unless some rich shark wants to acquire it.

[clockuniverse]

I mean at the current price. If anyone is interested to develop, he can just buy in, no need to ask for donation or bounty. But any way, collaboration is also important.
Dash's voting/governance is a way of collaboration. It maybe suit for a coin with such marketcap. But I don't think it's suit for coins with smaller marketcap.
For example:
   Developer A want's to develop a software feature, it will need 2 months to complete. Average salary for a developer is 8000 USD. So it will need 16000 USD, around 3500000 TRC! Around 20 % of the total supply.

Do you think it's feasible?

Even with the first step, implement the masternode/voting system, I think if 1~2 very capable developers to complete coding/testing (even copy & paste from Dash), I think it will at least need 1 month. That means 10000 USD is a minimum.

That's why I think you should forget about the Dash masternode/voting.

TRC evolve slowly by itself is the most feasible option right now, unless some rich shark wants to acquire it.

I get what you mean now.

But it will never slowly evolve without help and very few people are willing to help.  You have helped in the past and there are a couple other people but that is about it.  We can't even get the bug fixed that coinwarz is having because we don't have steady developers.  I don't have time to beautify Reddit, etc.

The idea behind the decentralized governance is that right now people will invest their time and energy into the project for a small TRC reward but once the price goes up their TRC will be worth more.  We will also be able to work towards real changes to make TRC unique instead of just copy and pasting from other coins with a real development team.

Using your same example we will never get 10k USD to implement any features via donations.

You guys are really fighting the wrong fight here.  This is a great thing, and will help improve everything about TRC.

Terracoin needs more active development then I can provide or pay for and this is the way to do it.

Once the decentralized governance and the masternodes is in place you guys can proposal all sorts of things such as improvements to the website, reddit, etc and it will probably get done.

As long as you have a masternode, and at 10K TRC that is cheap.  Also remember it goes down each month by 1k and you also get 45% of the block rewards per month/number of masternodes.  Early adopters of this will get a grip of Terracoin that they can sell for a large profit once the price rises and we find our own way.

[IconFirm]

.... and you also get 45% of the block rewards per month/number of masternodes.

To be taken out of the miners rewards I presume?

Your explanations for implementing the dash/sdash/scryptdash/crw etc, etc clone are all based on the assumption that the price will go up, where as the reality is that it probably wont - unless you are prepared to use a large amount of your holding to pump the price like the other dash clones have done?

If this masternode idea was so good, don't you think BTC would have adopted it long ago? The reason BTC is so successful is because of miners & pushing them away by almost halving their reward is unwise IMHO. Don't be another Dash clone - be original. People go for originality.

[johnwhitestar]

I think that DASH's masternode system creates a great number of guaranteed holders, until the masternode gives to the investor 10% of his investment per month he will be holding all the DASHs he has invested into masternode.
The TRC price fluctuation do not guaranty 10% of the investment per month.
Once the majority of investors wants to keep the coins they will became scarce and because they may give to the masternode owner a great profit everybody wants to buy them, that's why the price of the DASH is going up quicker than the BTC's.
And it will be so until the real economy will not be created based on the DASH, and it will be more convenient to invest DASHs into the real projects instead of just holding them.
This mechanism prevents the DASH price to be dumped too much as it can happen with BTC, because there are not so much people that would like to risk their DASH's to double them while you can reach the same goal without doing anything, just holding them.
If the price is going up mining is still convenient even if the miner receive less coins.
I agree that some solution to finance the TRC project should be found and the DASH's masternode system can help.
And once the TRC Foundation have the money to evolve the coin we can go on with the new ideas.
That's why I'm asking again. What advantages we can offer to the investors in this initial stage in order to have money to develop masternodes?
Maybe we can reserve to the investors the possibility to have cheaper masternodes or the right to invest into the first masternodes while the others will have this right later? How much money do we need to have the masternode system ready to use?


        

[johnwhitestar]

What I was talking about it that in the first month if you have 10,000 TRC and you set up a masternode and nine other people do it then only a 100,000 is pulled out of all of the exchanges.

The idea behind starting at 10,000 TRC is to keep some whale from setting up a 100 virtual servers and ruining the voting.

And if only 100,000 in the first month is pulled out of the exchanges then the price won’t go up an insane amount.

It is better to have a steady climb with lesser bumps.

Does that make sense?  I am open to new ideas.

I'd like to know if you mean here to limit the number of masternodes at first, or if you just think that only 10 people will invest into TRC masternodes in the beginning because of the relatively high price. 

[johnwhitestar]

  Developer A want's to develop a software feature, it will need 2 months to complete. Average salary for a developer is 8000 USD. So it will need 16000 USD, around 3500000 TRC! Around 20 % of the total supply.

Do you think it's feasible?

I think that this is a very important point. The market capitalization of TRC is something about 70000 USD so even paying the developers all the TRC that are available at the current price we'll be able to pay only 10 month of developer work.

I think that we have to invest some BTC in this project because TRCs are just not enough to make something serious at the current market price (which is by the way fake, from my point of view).  

[clockuniverse]

To be taken out of the miners rewards I presume?

Your explanations for implementing the dash/sdash/scryptdash/crw etc, etc clone are all based on the assumption that the price will go up, where as the reality is that it probably wont - unless you are prepared to use a large amount of your holding to pump the price like the other dash clones have done?

If this masternode idea was so good, don't you think BTC would have adopted it long ago? The reason BTC is so successful is because of miners & pushing them away by almost halving their reward is unwise IMHO. Don't be another Dash clone - be original. People go for originality.

It would be 45% masternodes/45% miners/10% Decentralized management reward per block, so yes it would come out of the miners.  I believe the price will continue to slowly drop unless we make a decision that will help create an atmosphere to attract development team members.

I believe that DASH masternodes and decentralized management will help attract development and community members.

The only way we can make this coin unique is by having a development team in place.

We are just a slightly changed BTC clone, and after that we will be a mixed BTC/DASH clone and after that we will become unique.

I don't think BTC will ever change dramatically because that is against it's whole mission goal.

Since it is merged mine your immediate profits might cut to 45% but the possibility for the value to grow is much higher because we have a team working on it.

I agree that some solution to finance the TRC project should be found and the DASH's masternode system can help.
And once the TRC Foundation have the money to evolve the coin we can go on with the new ideas.
That's why I'm asking again. What advantages we can offer to the investors in this initial stage in order to have money to develop masternodes?
Maybe we can reserve to the investors the possibility to have cheaper masternodes or the right to invest into the first masternodes while the others will have this right later? How much money do we need to have the masternode system ready to use?

In a dream world the initial investment for implementing the DASH masternode/decentralized governance would be from a final round of donations and from volunteer developers who want to join the team.

In reality we will need people to invest in the development.

The Terracoin Foundation is going to have 1 masternode from the beginning.  It's profits could be used to pay back investors for the initial development.  I have another idea for the profits that I am keeping under my hat right now but if we have to use those profits to pay investors we will.  We could set up something like if they put in $100 USD the profits from the TRC Foundation masternode would be split between all of the investors until they get $120 USD or something like that.  This could take a while but that it one option.

I'd like to know if you mean here to limit the number of masternodes at first, or if you just think that only 10 people will invest into TRC masternodes in the beginning because of the relatively high price. 

No limit at the beginning but the high price and me trying to keep expectations low is how I came up with 10.

I know the TRC Foundation will have one, and I personally will have one.  I imagine the developer/developers will have one and another person told me they would have one, so that is 4 right there.  Another six people in a month isn't a far stretch. 

The earlier a person sets up a masternode the more their rewards will be, especially because as each month passes they can take 1,000 TRC from the original 10,000 out of their wallet and do whatever they want with it.

  Developer A want's to develop a software feature, it will need 2 months to complete. Average salary for a developer is 8000 USD. So it will need 16000 USD, around 3500000 TRC! Around 20 % of the total supply.

Do you think it's feasible?

I think that this is a very important point. The market capitalization of TRC is something about 70000 USD so even paying the developers all the TRC that are available at the current price we'll be able to pay only 10 month of developer work.

I think that we have to invest some BTC in this project because TRCs are just not enough to make something serious at the current market price (which is by the way fake, from my point of view).  

The initial investment will have to be in BTC, but I think it will be more like 1 BTC to get it up and running.  No one is getting paid market prices in the crypto world, though they should be.  Almost everyone is working on a coin because they believe the price will go up one day.  Hopefully after the implementation people will believe in the project to work for TRC which they can horde for a future time when the price is higher because of their hard work.

Also at that time we get to make TRC truly unique!  I would like to think that developers would be interested in providing their ideas, and working on getting them put into action.

Why do you think the current market price is fake?  I think the volume on Cryptopia is fake.  I am almost positive it is fake, but the price seems about what it should be.

[johnwhitestar]

I believe that DASH masternodes and decentralized management will help attract development and community members.

I think we have to be careful with this idea, because we can't be 100% sure of the true causes of the DASH's success. Apparently it's in the masternode system and decentralized management, but it can be an illusion as well.

We are just a slightly changed BTC clone, and after that we will be a mixed BTC/DASH clone and after that we will become unique.

I agree with this idea.

The Terracoin Foundation is going to have 1 masternode from the beginning.  It's profits could be used to pay back investors for the initial development.  I have another idea for the profits that I am keeping under my hat right now but if we have to use those profits to pay investors we will.  We could set up something like if they put in $100 USD the profits from the TRC Foundation masternode would be split between all of the investors until they get $120 USD or something like that.  This could take a while but that it one option.

I'd like to invest BTCs, but I'd need to have BTC profit as result. Another idea here is to offer to the developers TRCs bought with the BTCs that would be invested into the project, so along with the masternode development we will have the rise of the TRC price, in that case I'd rather receive profits in TRCs.

I know the TRC Foundation will have one, and I personally will have one.  I imagine the developer/developers will have one and another person told me they would have one, so that is 4 right there.  Another six people in a month isn't a far stretch.  

I will have at least one as well

The initial investment will have to be in BTC, but I think it will be more like 1 BTC to get it up and running.  No one is getting paid market prices in the crypto world, though they should be.  Almost everyone is working on a coin because they believe the price will go up one day.  Hopefully after the implementation people will believe in the project to work for TRC which they can horde for a future time when the price is higher because of their hard work.

I'd say that we are not seeing developers eager to work for the future of TRC, so probably they will not appear. We have to think another strategy here. I personally always pay people what they think they deserve and they always work well because of that. What if we try to find developers using upwork.com? You can find very interesting prices there.

Why do you think the current market price is fake?  I think the volume on Cryptopia is fake.  I am almost positive it is fake, but the price seems about what it should be.

The high volumes on Cryptorpia are fake and that volumes let the price not to settle in the right position, that's why I consider it fake. I'd prefer much more the price to go down as much as possible but once the bottom is reached it will go for a long long time up (just think that the price of TRC is 100 times lower than the price of LTC, which is ridiculous), with this fakes volumes we don't have the possibility for the market to evolve naturally. We are just stuck there and nothing is happening. In this way we can't attract new community members because the most of people in the cryptoworld are here to have profits. With a "stable" market there are no profits=no new community members.

[clockuniverse]

I believe that DASH masternodes and decentralized management will help attract development and community members.

I think we have to be careful with this idea, because we can't be 100% sure of the true causes of the DASH's success. Apparently it's in the masternode system and decentralized management, but it can be an illusion as well.

We have already had renewed interest in joining the team since I announced this.

We are just a slightly changed BTC clone, and after that we will be a mixed BTC/DASH clone and after that we will become unique.

I agree with this idea.

The Terracoin Foundation is going to have 1 masternode from the beginning.  It's profits could be used to pay back investors for the initial development.  I have another idea for the profits that I am keeping under my hat right now but if we have to use those profits to pay investors we will.  We could set up something like if they put in $100 USD the profits from the TRC Foundation masternode would be split between all of the investors until they get $120 USD or something like that.  This could take a while but that it one option.

I'd like to invest BTCs, but I'd need to have BTC profit as result. Another idea here is to offer to the developers TRCs bought with the BTCs that would be invested into the project, so along with the masternode development we will have the rise of the TRC price, in that case I'd rather receive profits in TRCs.

I was just using USD as an example.  It could be paid out in whatever.  We would just want to set a reasonable percentage of return.  I was suggesting 20%.
An investment can come in a variety of shapes too, such as time and effort.

I know the TRC Foundation will have one, and I personally will have one.  I imagine the developer/developers will have one and another person told me they would have one, so that is 4 right there.  Another six people in a month isn't a far stretch.  

I will have at least one as well

The initial investment will have to be in BTC, but I think it will be more like 1 BTC to get it up and running.  No one is getting paid market prices in the crypto world, though they should be.  Almost everyone is working on a coin because they believe the price will go up one day.  Hopefully after the implementation people will believe in the project to work for TRC which they can horde for a future time when the price is higher because of their hard work.

I'd say that we are not seeing developers eager to work for the future of TRC, so probably they will not appear. We have to think another strategy here. I personally always pay people what they think they deserve and they always work well because of that. What if we try to find developers using upwork.com? You can find very interesting prices there.

Currently no one gets paid for anything, so lets start at zero and work up from there.  We don't want to attract people who want just a single payment we want to attract long term members of the team to work on making TRC unique.

Why do you think the current market price is fake?  I think the volume on Cryptopia is fake.  I am almost positive it is fake, but the price seems about what it should be.

The high volumes on Cryptorpia are fake and that volumes let the price not to settle in the right position, that's why I consider it fake. I'd prefer much more the price to go down as much as possible but once the bottom is reached it will go for a long long time up (just think that the price of TRC is 100 times lower than the price of LTC, which is ridiculous), with this fakes volumes we don't have the possibility for the market to evolve naturally. We are just stuck there and nothing is happening. In this way we can't attract new community members because the most of people in the cryptoworld are here to have profits. With a "stable" market there are no profits=no new community members.

I do wish that people would stop inflating the volume on Cryptopia.  C-Cex doesn't have that issue.

[johnwhitestar]

I was just using USD as an example.  It could be paid out in whatever.  We would just want to set a reasonable percentage of return.  I was suggesting 20%.
An investment can come in a variety of shapes too, such as time and effort.

The fluctuation of BTC is such, that 20% of profit in BTCs is very different matter than 20% of profit in USD.

Generally speaking lets discuss the condition for sponsoring the masternode creation project, so once it's clear what one can get from it maybe many BTC, USD or TRC holders may begin to send you funds.

[johnwhitestar]

I have been following Cryptopia for quite some time now... lots of coins have faked volumes, not only TRC. The same thing seems to be happening in NovaExchange. I think that it might be the exchanges themselves creating the fake volumes, aiming for more users. The exchange does not lose anything by doing this, as all the "profit" will be recycled.

For example, I made a bot that was trading TRC (among other coins), but it could never catch those big trades as they were done in small fractions of time.( I realized I cannot make any profit with my bot on Cryptopia and I'll port the API to contact Poloniex instead when I have the time.)

I agree with you. It's the Cryptopia owners themselves that pump the volumes.
They are doing what in another context would be called "market maker".
They see the spread between the sell and buy offers and as it's very large they "do" buy and sell somewhere in the middle. It doesn't cost them anything and anybody who wants to buy or sell TRC will be attracted by those volumes, because in this way it seems that they are leaders of the market.
I guess that if you put an buy or sell offer for something like 100,000 TRC there in the middle their fake trading the volumes will immediately drop or they will change the price at which they are "trading", so your offer will be not satisfied.
To stop that fake volumes you can make one large sell offer and one large buy offer at the extremes of their "trading" area and than gradually reduce the spread, but it can be risky of course for your capital.

[clockuniverse]

I have been following Cryptopia for quite some time now... lots of coins have faked volumes, not only TRC. The same thing seems to be happening in NovaExchange. I think that it might be the exchanges themselves creating the fake volumes, aiming for more users. The exchange does not lose anything by doing this, as all the "profit" will be recycled.

For example, I made a bot that was trading TRC (among other coins), but it could never catch those big trades as they were done in small fractions of time.( I realized I cannot make any profit with my bot on Cryptopia and I'll port the API to contact Poloniex instead when I have the time.)

I actually purchased a bot to see if I could catch those big trades and I couldn't either.  My bot does make a profit on Cryptopia no problem though.  Those big trades are just ignored because they appear and disappear too quickly.

I was just using USD as an example.  It could be paid out in whatever.  We would just want to set a reasonable percentage of return.  I was suggesting 20%.
An investment can come in a variety of shapes too, such as time and effort.

The fluctuation of BTC is such, that 20% of profit in BTCs is very different matter than 20% of profit in USD.

Generally speaking lets discuss the condition for sponsoring the masternode creation project, so once it's clear what one can get from it maybe many BTC, USD or TRC holders may begin to send you funds.

If people are unwilling to donate their money or time to improve the coin (which is an investment in itself), then I will post up a more clear picture of what I was talking about.

We are already working with a new volunteer web developer and I am talking with a couple of other coin developers who may want to join the team.  These people are only interested because we are implementing the DASH decentralized governance.  Both devs are struggling with time constraints so if they can't help then we could go with paying a one time fee to someone, but I would like to only do that as a last resort.  I want people to invest in the coin to see it improve.  Those will be better team members.

Hope that makes sense.

[clockuniverse]

Good news!  That weird coin named TERRA (not Terracoin) is getting de-listed on C-Cex.  Now people won't get confused and come here looking for help with it!

[clockuniverse]

Here is another idea I had for the masternode roll out.

Each masternode can have up to 10,000 TRC or as little as 1,000 TRC.  For each 1k TRC you have in your masternode wallet you would get more of a reward.  A masternode with 10k would get 10 times the reward compared to one with 1,000.  Each masternode would get only 1 vote regardless of the number of coins it holds.  That way the more you have up till 10k the more reward you get, but you couldn’t pay to vote more, unless you create more masternodes. 

More masternodes help protect the network.

That way if you are an early adopter but can't afford the 10k TRC you could set up a masternode with 1k TRC and just hold onto your coins and as the payouts roll out you would get a larger reward.

What does everyone think?

[dleader]

I would co-opt everything DCR is doing over Dash any day. DCR's governance and pos scheme is brilliant.

Good to see this old gal still alive! Brings back some btc-e fond memories Keep on keeping on!