🌟🎲🌟 MoneyPot.com

[fiscorcle]

Is it true only investors lost the money in moneypot but moneypot owners and app owners are in profits?

I'm not so good in understanding the statistics, but from this table, it looks like only investors lost the money and others are in still profit. If it is true, then moneypot is not suitable for investors, right?

Yes, it's true.

The site and the apps make a guaranteed gain every time a bet is placed, even if the bet wins. When a bet wins, not only do the investors have to pay the winner of the bet, but they also have to pay the site and the app owner. You can see that in the screenshot. Comparing the left and right sides you see that while the site profit dropped by just 78.5 BTC, the investor profit dropped by 82.5 BTC. The app owners actually profited by 3 BTC from this large loss, and the site itself profited by a further 1 BTC. The investors made up the difference.

On the other hand, if the apps ever do better than expected then the investors will also do better than expected. The site and the apps take a percentage of the wagered amount, independent of the actual profit. The way things are set up means that when the site performs at less than 70% of expectation the investors take a loss.

If moneypot and app owners are not involved in risk taking than I don't consider such sites are safe to invest money and it is just my opinion because I think in some way site owners and app owners also need to pay these big wins then only I feel whole business model can grow in a healthy way otherwise I think it is not fair to push all losses to only investors. And I don't think hosting and maintaining site cost will be that high to push all big wins only to investors.

App owners have their own costs. MP has their own costs (encapsulating coverage of all apps, development, time expense, etc.) PLUS has always had a large portion of the BR. To say MP has not had any "risks" is asinine. When the BR tanks, MP loses as well, not just investors, as MP is, at its core, an investor as well, both personally and business-oriented.

I also want to stress the fact that the grand total paid to ANY of the MP owners over the past year (which covers our ownership period) is exactly 0.00000000 BTC. ALL income that has been made has always been put back into the system for growth, development, etc. There has been a lot we've worked on behind the scenes, and just don't want to share at this point because people like to ask for a specific release date and then attack you if something slows that down and/or things change with regards to actual execution of ideas.

What have you guys spent $100,000 on over the last year...?

[1714762402]

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[BillyBurns]

Lets act professional guys, no need for insults and raging.

[ranlo]

Is it true only investors lost the money in moneypot but moneypot owners and app owners are in profits?

I'm not so good in understanding the statistics, but from this table, it looks like only investors lost the money and others are in still profit. If it is true, then moneypot is not suitable for investors, right?

Yes, it's true.

The site and the apps make a guaranteed gain every time a bet is placed, even if the bet wins. When a bet wins, not only do the investors have to pay the winner of the bet, but they also have to pay the site and the app owner. You can see that in the screenshot. Comparing the left and right sides you see that while the site profit dropped by just 78.5 BTC, the investor profit dropped by 82.5 BTC. The app owners actually profited by 3 BTC from this large loss, and the site itself profited by a further 1 BTC. The investors made up the difference.

On the other hand, if the apps ever do better than expected then the investors will also do better than expected. The site and the apps take a percentage of the wagered amount, independent of the actual profit. The way things are set up means that when the site performs at less than 70% of expectation the investors take a loss.

If moneypot and app owners are not involved in risk taking than I don't consider such sites are safe to invest money and it is just my opinion because I think in some way site owners and app owners also need to pay these big wins then only I feel whole business model can grow in a healthy way otherwise I think it is not fair to push all losses to only investors. And I don't think hosting and maintaining site cost will be that high to push all big wins only to investors.

App owners have their own costs. MP has their own costs (encapsulating coverage of all apps, development, time expense, etc.) PLUS has always had a large portion of the BR. To say MP has not had any "risks" is asinine. When the BR tanks, MP loses as well, not just investors, as MP is, at its core, an investor as well, both personally and business-oriented.

I also want to stress the fact that the grand total paid to ANY of the MP owners over the past year (which covers our ownership period) is exactly 0.00000000 BTC. ALL income that has been made has always been put back into the system for growth, development, etc. There has been a lot we've worked on behind the scenes, and just don't want to share at this point because people like to ask for a specific release date and then attack you if something slows that down and/or things change with regards to actual execution of ideas.

What have you guys spent $100,000 on over the last year...?

The number shown/claimed on Dicesites is FAR from actual. We had zero commission for a significant period of the year, which isn't accounted for there. We didn't get even close to 100k. And that's assuming it was all kept in BTC. Our expenses are almost entirely fiat-based, where the value of BTC was much lower than it is today.

Anyways, I brought up the fact that we've taken zero satoshi because we are in this for the long-term, not short-term.

[NLNico]

Uhm my site is correct I don't use any fixed percentages or something like that. It's all calculated based on your stats.


I understand hosting and development is expensive though and BTC price was like half just some months ago.. so not trying to argue with that :p

[ranlo]

Uhm my site is correct I don't use any fixed percentages or something like that. It's all calculated based on your stats.

Is your site not assuming we've obtained commission off every BTC ever wagered? Because that's the part in question. The math itself is correct -- the encapsulated period (and thus wagered) for which we've obtained commission is not.

Also, to add on to the last post, we've given a decent amount of BTC to help with promos, reimburse users that had deposit issues back when they were a problem, etc. We will continue to show our dedication to both investors AND players through the coming years, proving time and time again that we're in it for the long haul, .

[AcoinL.L.C]

Lets act professional guys, no need for insults and raging.

Unfortunately most posts are made by trolls (i.e. fiscorcle) is almost certainly an alt account of "Lanzador" (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=888795)), or are made by signature spammers looking to get paid.

[NLNico]

Uhm my site is correct I don't use any fixed percentages or something like that. It's all calculated based on your stats.

Is your site not assuming we've obtained commission off every BTC ever wagered? Because that's the part in question. The math itself is correct -- the encapsulated period (and thus wagered) for which we've obtained commission is not.

No. I get the profit and commission of all apps. Combine all profit, subtract total app commission, subtract investor profit.. leftover is MP "profit". So it doesn't matter if your commission is 0% or 20%.. I don't use that

[MinerHQ]

Is it true only investors lost the money in moneypot but moneypot owners and app owners are in profits?

I'm not so good in understanding the statistics, but from this table, it looks like only investors lost the money and others are in still profit. If it is true, then moneypot is not suitable for investors, right?

Yes, it's true.

The site and the apps make a guaranteed gain every time a bet is placed, even if the bet wins. When a bet wins, not only do the investors have to pay the winner of the bet, but they also have to pay the site and the app owner. You can see that in the screenshot. Comparing the left and right sides you see that while the site profit dropped by just 78.5 BTC, the investor profit dropped by 82.5 BTC. The app owners actually profited by 3 BTC from this large loss, and the site itself profited by a further 1 BTC. The investors made up the difference.

On the other hand, if the apps ever do better than expected then the investors will also do better than expected. The site and the apps take a percentage of the wagered amount, independent of the actual profit. The way things are set up means that when the site performs at less than 70% of expectation the investors take a loss.

If moneypot and app owners are not involved in risk taking than I don't consider such sites are safe to invest money and it is just my opinion because I think in some way site owners and app owners also need to pay these big wins then only I feel whole business model can grow in a healthy way otherwise I think it is not fair to push all losses to only investors. And I don't think hosting and maintaining site cost will be that high to push all big wins only to investors.

Do you understand how the numbers break down at all? Or did you just try to think up something to say for your signature pay? I honestly think you really have no clue.

We as app owners make a whopping 40% of the house edge now. That means if we have a 1% House Edge we will make .004btc from every 1btc wagered. You think we are getting rich or something and youre incorrect. Now youre saying we should share in the big losses? Are you ignorant?

We app owners have hosting and domains to pay for. Then add in all the advertising we do. Now toss in dev costs(not exactly cheap). And lastly add in the promos we do(which have to be paid regardless of whether ppl are wagering or not if we announce them). For example i have a 1btc wagering contest going on on bubblesbit. 19 days into the month we have 72btc wagered. Do the math on the House edge now. we need 250btc wagered in the month to break even just on the promotion with the current app owners cut. 250-72 =178btc left to be wagered for us to break even. Im pretty sure im paying this promo out of my pocket buddy.

This doesnt include the fact that now moneypot also wants us to pay our own damn faucets now.

So i ask you how in the hell do you expect app owners to pay for big losses as well? Dont comment unless you have a fucking clue is all im saying.

Yahoo - nothing is personal and not just for signature purpose I wrote that comment. I lost my money as investor so wrote my personal feeling about this investment

But I feel that in business everyone should be responsible for the significant losses which happen in every business. Not only investors should take all those risks. Also, people do promotions by expecting some profit either immediately or in the longer term, and if I'm not wrong no one will do a charity work to distribute money to public, and I hope you will agree on this point.

I wrote that comment based on my personal experience because not making any profit from quite some time in moneypot investments.

I know you're one of the reputed guy running many campaigns on this forum so it is not good to use those bad words in public and it will not give you any respect.

I'm an investor, so if I lose money, then I hope can suggest some better feature for the owners, and I withdraw my investments already because it is no more attractive for me. And similarly, if you think that you can't make money from your site then no one is forcing you to run promotions and should know what to do right?

Still, there is a lot of opportunities improve moneypot profit distribution method to attract more investors, and that's what I want to say.

[yahoo62278]

Is it true only investors lost the money in moneypot but moneypot owners and app owners are in profits?

I'm not so good in understanding the statistics, but from this table, it looks like only investors lost the money and others are in still profit. If it is true, then moneypot is not suitable for investors, right?

Yes, it's true.

The site and the apps make a guaranteed gain every time a bet is placed, even if the bet wins. When a bet wins, not only do the investors have to pay the winner of the bet, but they also have to pay the site and the app owner. You can see that in the screenshot. Comparing the left and right sides you see that while the site profit dropped by just 78.5 BTC, the investor profit dropped by 82.5 BTC. The app owners actually profited by 3 BTC from this large loss, and the site itself profited by a further 1 BTC. The investors made up the difference.

On the other hand, if the apps ever do better than expected then the investors will also do better than expected. The site and the apps take a percentage of the wagered amount, independent of the actual profit. The way things are set up means that when the site performs at less than 70% of expectation the investors take a loss.

If moneypot and app owners are not involved in risk taking than I don't consider such sites are safe to invest money and it is just my opinion because I think in some way site owners and app owners also need to pay these big wins then only I feel whole business model can grow in a healthy way otherwise I think it is not fair to push all losses to only investors. And I don't think hosting and maintaining site cost will be that high to push all big wins only to investors.

Do you understand how the numbers break down at all? Or did you just try to think up something to say for your signature pay? I honestly think you really have no clue.

We as app owners make a whopping 40% of the house edge now. That means if we have a 1% House Edge we will make .004btc from every 1btc wagered. You think we are getting rich or something and youre incorrect. Now youre saying we should share in the big losses? Are you ignorant?

We app owners have hosting and domains to pay for. Then add in all the advertising we do. Now toss in dev costs(not exactly cheap). And lastly add in the promos we do(which have to be paid regardless of whether ppl are wagering or not if we announce them). For example i have a 1btc wagering contest going on on bubblesbit. 19 days into the month we have 72btc wagered. Do the math on the House edge now. we need 250btc wagered in the month to break even just on the promotion with the current app owners cut. 250-72 =178btc left to be wagered for us to break even. Im pretty sure im paying this promo out of my pocket buddy.

This doesnt include the fact that now moneypot also wants us to pay our own damn faucets now.

So i ask you how in the hell do you expect app owners to pay for big losses as well? Dont comment unless you have a fucking clue is all im saying.

Yahoo - nothing is personal and not just for signature purpose I wrote that comment. I lost my money as investor so wrote my personal feeling about this investment

But I feel that in business everyone should be responsible for the significant losses which happen in every business. Not only investors should take all those risks. Also, people do promotions by expecting some profit either immediately or in the longer term, and if I'm not wrong no one will do a charity work to distribute money to public, and I hope you will agree on this point.

I wrote that comment based on my personal experience because not making any profit from quite some time in moneypot investments.

I know you're one of the reputed guy running many campaigns on this forum so it is not good to use those bad words in public and it will not give you any respect.

I'm an investor, so if I lose money, then I hope can suggest some better feature for the owners, and I withdraw my investments already because it is no more attractive for me. And similarly, if you think that you can't make money from your site then no one is forcing you to run promotions and should know what to do right?

Still, there is a lot of opportunities improve moneypot profit distribution method to attract more investors, and that's what I want to say.

I understand your point man. Losing money sucks whether it be you, me, moneypot, or whomever. I just think you should look at the math and rethink your thought.

Yea i read that and added in with the recent changes to the system i came off like a hotheaded prick. My apologies for that. Im not gonna delete the comment as im human and emotions do come into play at times when it comes to money.

I do however not share your opinion on apps being a part of the loss. Im not some untitled dice free script. I have actual money sunk into my site. If some whale comes in and wins 100 btc its not the apps fault. There are winners and there are losers in gambling. Investors should understand these risks before investing. Ive said it before and ill say it again," ppl do have to win here and there, otherwise why gamble ever?"

Moneypot is supposed to be provably fair and any app that is on the system is also provably fair from my understanding. In the long run the house always wins in gambling. This is something thats all investors should keep in mind.

Theres alot more i want to write but Im gonna sit back and see what happens. I cant give MP a solid idea on how to treat the situation because what theyre doing is not my expertise. Theyre doing what they feel is best and we just gotta ride the wave whether a player, investor, or owner.

[mastercoins]

Is it true only investors lost the money in moneypot but moneypot owners and app owners are in profits?

I'm not so good in understanding the statistics, but from this table, it looks like only investors lost the money and others are in still profit. If it is true, then moneypot is not suitable for investors, right?

Yes, it's true.

The site and the apps make a guaranteed gain every time a bet is placed, even if the bet wins. When a bet wins, not only do the investors have to pay the winner of the bet, but they also have to pay the site and the app owner. You can see that in the screenshot. Comparing the left and right sides you see that while the site profit dropped by just 78.5 BTC, the investor profit dropped by 82.5 BTC. The app owners actually profited by 3 BTC from this large loss, and the site itself profited by a further 1 BTC. The investors made up the difference.

On the other hand, if the apps ever do better than expected then the investors will also do better than expected. The site and the apps take a percentage of the wagered amount, independent of the actual profit. The way things are set up means that when the site performs at less than 70% of expectation the investors take a loss.

If moneypot and app owners are not involved in risk taking than I don't consider such sites are safe to invest money and it is just my opinion because I think in some way site owners and app owners also need to pay these big wins then only I feel whole business model can grow in a healthy way otherwise I think it is not fair to push all losses to only investors. And I don't think hosting and maintaining site cost will be that high to push all big wins only to investors.

App owners have their own costs. MP has their own costs (encapsulating coverage of all apps, development, time expense, etc.) PLUS has always had a large portion of the BR. To say MP has not had any "risks" is asinine. When the BR tanks, MP loses as well, not just investors, as MP is, at its core, an investor as well, both personally and business-oriented.

I also want to stress the fact that the grand total paid to ANY of the MP owners over the past year (which covers our ownership period) is exactly 0.00000000 BTC. ALL income that has been made has always been put back into the system for growth, development, etc. There has been a lot we've worked on behind the scenes, and just don't want to share at this point because people like to ask for a specific release date and then attack you if something slows that down and/or things change with regards to actual execution of ideas.

Is it a good idea that if anyone wins higher than certain % of bankroll then investors, app owners and moneypot should share equally all losses than only investors? I don't know it can be agreed by all and can be implemented this system. Just to show people that even owners also part to sharing those huge losses.

Looks like a good suggestion because if app owners and owner do not want to take part in sharing all the losses which occur in the moneypot system but at least, they should be part of some massive losses. I too lost big amount here and moved my funds to other bankrolls.

[dooglus]

New Commission Structure:
App Owners will receive 40% of the house edge and 10% of investor profit
Moneypot will receive 10% of the house edge and 10% of investor profit
Investors will stand to make an additional 10% (40%) of the house edge.

So the house edge used to be split 50% to app, 20% to MP, leaving 30% to investors if the actual profit matched expectation.
And now it's split 40% to app, 10% to MP, 40% (10% more than before) to investors? Where's the missing 10% going now? (40+10+40 = 90, not 100)

Did you mean to say this instead?

> Investors will stand to make an additional 20% (50%) of the house edge.

Or did I misunderstand?

[Sora Aoi]

New Commission Structure:
App Owners will receive 40% of the house edge and 10% of investor profit
Moneypot will receive 10% of the house edge and 10% of investor profit
Investors will stand to make an additional 10% (40%) of the house edge.

So the house edge used to be split 50% to app, 20% to MP, leaving 30% to investors if the actual profit matched expectation.
And now it's split 40% to app, 10% to MP, 40% (10% more than before) to investors? Where's the missing 10% going now? (40+10+40 = 90, not 100)

Did you mean to say this instead?

> Investors will stand to make an additional 20% (50%) of the house edge.

Or did I misunderstand?

I think this is how it breaks down assuming investors run at neutral ev.

App Owners: 40% house edge+10% of the 50% investor profit(5% house edge)= 45% house edge
Money Pot: 10% house edge+10% of the 50% investor profit(5% house edge)= 15% house edge
Investor: 50% house edge-20% of the 50% investor profit= 40% house edge

[gapjustin]

New Commission Structure:
App Owners will receive 40% of the house edge and 10% of investor profit
Moneypot will receive 10% of the house edge and 10% of investor profit
Investors will stand to make an additional 10% (40%) of the house edge.

So the house edge used to be split 50% to app, 20% to MP, leaving 30% to investors if the actual profit matched expectation.
And now it's split 40% to app, 10% to MP, 40% (10% more than before) to investors? Where's the missing 10% going now? (40+10+40 = 90, not 100)

Did you mean to say this instead?

> Investors will stand to make an additional 20% (50%) of the house edge.

Or did I misunderstand?

You misunderstood
40% to app + 10% of the actual profit (aka app owners can also lose money now I think)
10% to Mp
40% to investors

[dooglus]

I think this is how it breaks down assuming investors run at neutral ev.

App Owners: 40% house edge+10% of the 50% investor profit(5% house edge)= 45% house edge
Money Pot: 10% house edge+10% of the 50% investor profit(5% house edge)= 15% house edge
Investor: 50% house edge-20% of the 50% investor profit= 40% house edge

Oh yes, that makes sense.

So the expected total commission has dropped from 70% (50+20) to 60% (45+15).

I hadn't realized before that you can't calculate the expected commission by simply summing the 'on house edge' and 'on profit' percentages.

For example, BetKing used to take 25% up front (on the house edge) and another 25% of the actual profits. I always assumed that represented a 50% expected commission (25+25), but now it seems like it was 'only' 25 + (0.75*25) = 43.75%. Do I have it right now?

[joter85]

App owners and moneypot owners have no risk whatsoever. They take commision from the wagered bitcoins, investors take the real risk of players gambling against their bankroll. So yes, only investors lost.

App owners incur the cost of hosting the app and the cost of marketing/attracting players to play at their app. MP owners incur the cost of attracting app owners to develop MP apps and to attract players to play at MP, as well as the cost of securing funds, and the various seeds.

A lot of the costs that both app owners and MP owners incur will be incurred regardless of betting volume, so they are risking that betting volumes will not be high enough so that commissions on bets to cover the costs.

On a per bet basis, it is correct to say that MP owners and app owners do not bear any risk on each individual bet, however it is far from accurate to say that they do not bear any risk at all.

Yeah, I was referring to per bet basis as you said it. Didn't take the other costs in consideration.

Nevertheless I'd still say investors' risk is way greater than it should be.

It depends how you look at it. Sites like crypto games and safe dice give 70% ish to investors

but

sites like BetKing are proposing to give just 30% to investors, same as MP

but

BetKing will also share in the losses
So, it's really uncharted territory here that we're in now

Also worth pointing out is that Crypto-Games takes commission AND faucets from the investment pool. So they aren't even covering all the marketing costs -- investors are.

There you go - and I think their faucet is much higher than MP's. Not to mention their rainbot...

Don't make false statements here. Crypto-Games.net Rainbot funds come from owners and donators, investors have nothing with it.

What concerns investments
We (owners) take 30% of the profit/losses! and 70% belongs to investors. Detailed explanation is in our FAQ.

Crypto-Games cant be compared at all to moneypot. There are no apps or something like that. It even seems to be the best deal for investors because the client seed is generated by Math.random. So the site can easiely cheat the users whenever it wants.

This is well known to the owners, because they used same for serverseed at the start, until someone tried to make bank with that knowledge.
So this isnt even provably fair at all, but a pretty good deal for investors.

Ofc this doesnt belong to this thread, but thought i should mention it (;

We don't use Math.random to generate client seed for few months now. We have removed it because some users complain about it. But am curios how could we abuse it without any clientseed hash... ? Would appreciate your expert explanation.

[CrazyCraig]

App owners and moneypot owners have no risk whatsoever. They take commision from the wagered bitcoins, investors take the real risk of players gambling against their bankroll. So yes, only investors lost.

App owners incur the cost of hosting the app and the cost of marketing/attracting players to play at their app. MP owners incur the cost of attracting app owners to develop MP apps and to attract players to play at MP, as well as the cost of securing funds, and the various seeds.

A lot of the costs that both app owners and MP owners incur will be incurred regardless of betting volume, so they are risking that betting volumes will not be high enough so that commissions on bets to cover the costs.

On a per bet basis, it is correct to say that MP owners and app owners do not bear any risk on each individual bet, however it is far from accurate to say that they do not bear any risk at all.

Yeah, I was referring to per bet basis as you said it. Didn't take the other costs in consideration.

Nevertheless I'd still say investors' risk is way greater than it should be.

It depends how you look at it. Sites like crypto games and safe dice give 70% ish to investors

but

sites like BetKing are proposing to give just 30% to investors, same as MP

but

BetKing will also share in the losses
So, it's really uncharted territory here that we're in now

Also worth pointing out is that Crypto-Games takes commission AND faucets from the investment pool. So they aren't even covering all the marketing costs -- investors are.

There you go - and I think their faucet is much higher than MP's. Not to mention their rainbot...

Don't make false statements here. Crypto-Games.net Rainbot funds come from owners and donators, investors have nothing with it.

What concerns investments
We (owners) take 30% of the profit/losses! and 70% belongs to investors. Detailed explanation is in our FAQ.

Crypto-Games cant be compared at all to moneypot. There are no apps or something like that. It even seems to be the best deal for investors because the client seed is generated by Math.random. So the site can easiely cheat the users whenever it wants.

This is well known to the owners, because they used same for serverseed at the start, until someone tried to make bank with that knowledge.
So this isnt even provably fair at all, but a pretty good deal for investors.

Ofc this doesnt belong to this thread, but thought i should mention it (;

We don't use Math.random to generate client seed for few months now. We have removed it because some users complain about it. But am curios how could we abuse it without any clientseed hash... ? Would appreciate your expert explanation.

We encourage our apps to offer the ability to our users to choose math.random and static seeds. We believe it should truly be in the hands of the user. From what I have learned over the last few months, if anything, is that there will always be someone to say you are doing something wrong. Just ignore it and carry about your day. Listen to your user base.

[fiscorcle]

Lets act professional guys, no need for insults and raging.

Unfortunately most posts are made by trolls (i.e. fiscorcle) is almost certainly an alt account of "Lanzador" (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=888795)), or are made by signature spammers looking to get paid.

Chill man. I had no idea that you guys weren't taking commission for extended periods (did you tell anyone???).

And even if I am getting paid that's the same as everyone else here why does that make me worse than them?

EDIT:

Also - to specify, does taking 25% of investor profit mean sharing in the losses as well?

[DarkStar_]

Also - to specify, does taking 25% of investor profit mean sharing in the losses as well?

Pretty sure it's 20% investor profit, since it is 10% each. Anyway, I assume it will be like other sites that take your profit as a commission, where if you profit, they take their cut, and when you don't profit, they just take nothing.

[BillyBurns]

someone just invested 300 btc

[Karartma1]

Over the last year, there are a lot of things that we honestly could have done better and we are taking action now to try and re-balance things even if it means giving up a significant amount of bitcoin out of pocket to do so.

All of you know that this race is won on the long run. Better lose a bit from your pocket now and then be able to earn more than to be greedy on the short term and make everything go nuts.
It will pay out, patience is required.
I like the quote on your homepage: don't forget it.