IOTA - Permissioned ledger Russian extortion scheme

[r0ach]

New post to better articulate why permissioned ledger, closed entopy systems likely have no value:

The problem with Emunie, as I talked about in the IOTA thread, is that any system that doesn't have permanent coin turnover via mining, removes mining completely, or puts some type of abstraction layer between mining and block reward (as in the case of IOTA), is a permissioned ledger.  People got too caught up in trying to improve on consensus mechanisms and forgot what actually constitutes a decentralized currency in the first place.

When Maxwell said he "proved mathematically that Bitcoin couldn't exist" and then it did exist, it was because he didn't take open entropy systems into account.  He already knew stuff like NXT or Emunie could exist, but nobody actually considered them to be decentralized.  They're distributed but not decentralized.  Basically stocks that come from a central authority and then the shareholders attempt to form a nash equilibrium to...siphon fees from other shareholders in a zero sum game because there is no nash equilibrium to be had by outsiders adopting a closed entropy system in the first place...

Take for example the real world use case of a nash equilbrium in finance.  There's many rival nations on earth and they're all competing in currency wars, manipulating, devaluing, etc.  They would all be better off with an undisputed unit of account that the other can't tamper with for trade.  In order to adopt said unit, it would have to be a permissionless system that each nation has access to where one of the group isn't suspected to have an enormous advantage over the others, otherwise they would all just say no.

This is why gold was utilized at all.  Yea, some territories had more than others, but nobody actually knew what was under the ground at the time.  Everyone just agreed it was scarce, valuable, and nobody really had a monopoly on it.  There are really no circumstances where people on an individual level or nation-state level can come together to form any kind of nash equilibrium in a closed entropy system.  The market is cornered by design, and for value to increase, others need to willingly submit to the equivalent of an extortion scheme.  The only time systems like that have value at all is when governments use coercion to force them onto people.

[kiklo]

New post to better articulate why permissioned ledger, closed entopy systems likely have no value:

You are really hooked on the word permissioned to the point of a useless obsession. 

Example:
The US dollar could be considered a permissioned system , since the Government Prints it and then disburses it thru the banking system to the consumer.
If your above statement in red was accurate, then it would have 0 value and be ignored.
But in the Real World , Value is agreed upon by both parties during the exchange of goods & services.
If I don't feel the US $ value is high enough , I raise my rates or request payment from another system such as Gold, Yuan, or others.
So your statement likely have no value is false & misleading.
Every System is permissioned based, including your precious BTC. 

 

[r0ach]

Please, this thread is not about some coin nobody has ever heard of called "Zeitcoin", as there are 5 million PoS coins exactly identical to it that everyone has already discussed millions of times before.  No more 4am infomercials from the Shamwow Zeit salesmen will be necessary.

[kiklo]

Please, this thread is not about some coin nobody has ever heard of called "Zeitcoin", as there are 5 million PoS coins exactly identical to it that everyone has already discussed millions of times before.  No more 4am infomercials from the Shamwow Zeit salesmen will be necessary.

Sad that you can't actually even try to debate, but with such a flawed argument , no wonder you have to resort to useless propaganda tactics.
Oh well.
Enjoy spreading your falsehoods.

Later,
 

[r0ach]

There are zero falsehoods in this thread, I only asked you to stop spamming off-topic advertisements for your PoS clonecoin that has nothing to do with this thread.

[kiklo]

There are zero falsehoods in this thread, I only asked you to stop spamming off-topic advertisements for your PoS clonecoin that has nothing to do with this thread.

The only one that mentioned the Zword in a post on this page was you. 

 

[TPTB_need_war]

enforcing worldwide spread is not easy, and perhaps not doable.
They tried doing it with porn in the 90's, file sharing in 2000's and so on...
and servers kept over heating and got fried up

As I explained the key distinction upthread, those are free markets because they are decentralized and there is no significant asymmetry of information which makes it otherwise.

It pisses me off when readers waste my expensive time by ignoring what I already wrote twice in this thread. This makes three times. Please readers don't make me teach this again by writing another post which ignores my prior points.

I still dont understand why your'e calling waves a scam only cuz it made an ico (like everyone now).
Its devs are legit, real names with real work behind them.
So they thought charles and kushti are friends which will support them, and were wrong, apologized and moved on.
everyone got their asses covered legaly ofc..
so if you think all ico's are scams, you got lots of work now not just on waves bro

Please clearify. tnx

1. I already provided the link to the thread two or three times in this thread, which explains that ICOs sold to non-accredited USA investors are ostensibly illegal.

I hate ICOs by now for other reasons:

2. They contribute to the mainstream thinking that crypto-currency is a scam and thus we will have great difficulty getting CC widely adopted if don't put a stop to these scams.

3. They extract capital to a few scammers, which could be better used to build our real ecosystems which are not vaporware and have real decentralized designs, such as Bitcoin and Monero.

4. They prey on the ignorance of n00b speculators, thus can never be a free market.

5. They can never attain adoption because they destroy the Nash equilibrium and decentralization of the ecosystem:

As an example: I can show that dash is an oligarchy, whether intentional or not, due to the way their paynode scheme works. These systems are designed to work trustlessly, so any hiccups (intentional or not) should be invalidated by the design, not left-up to the good or bad intentions of those who are engaged with it.

did the monero wrote that fact about infinite supply in their ann Huh   if i was an investard in monero i would feel cheated if it isnt

No one can fork Monero without the support of the decentralized miners. The distinction from the Dash masternode scam, is that a masternode is staked only once with DRK (Dash tokens) and earns 50+% ROI per annum forever after for the largest holders of Dash tokens, thus further centralizing the coin meaning there is a centralized oligarchy which the investors are relying on for their future expecation of profits which afaics fulfills the Howey test for what is an investment security that is regulated by the Securities Act. A decentralized PoW miner is constantly expending on electricity in a competitive free market. Owning a lot of Monero doesn't give you any leverage as a miner.

New post to better articulate why permissioned ledger, closed entopy systems likely have no value:

The problem with Emunie, as I talked about in the IOTA thread, is that any system that doesn't have permanent coin turnover via mining, removes mining completely, or puts some type of abstraction layer between mining and block reward (as in the case of IOTA), is a permissioned ledger.  People got too caught up in trying to improve on consensus mechanisms and forgot what actually constitutes a decentralized currency in the first place.

When Maxwell said he "proved mathematically that Bitcoin couldn't exist" and then it did exist, it was because he didn't take open entropy systems into account.  He already knew stuff like NXT or Emunie could exist, but nobody actually considered them to be decentralized.  They're distributed but not decentralized.  Basically stocks that come from a central authority and then the shareholders attempt to form a nash equilibrium to...siphon fees from other shareholders in a zero sum game because there is no nash equilibrium to be had by outsiders adopting a closed entropy system in the first place...

Take for example the real world use case of a nash equilbrium in finance.  There's many rival nations on earth and they're all competing in currency wars, manipulating, devaluing, etc.  They would all be better off with an undisputed unit of account that the other can't tamper with for trade.  In order to adopt said unit, it would have to be a permissionless system that each nation has access to where one of the group isn't suspected to have an enormous advantage over the others, otherwise they would all just say no.

This is why gold was utilized at all.  Yea, some territories had more than others, but nobody actually knew what was under the ground at the time.  Everyone just agreed it was scarce, valuable, and nobody really had a monopoly on it.  There are really no circumstances where people on an individual level or nation-state level can come together to form any kind of nash equilibrium in a closed entropy system.  The market is cornered by design, and for value to increase, others need to willingly submit to the equivalent of an extortion scheme.  The only time systems like that have value at all is when governments use coercion to force them onto people.

6. Because they are not decentralized and rely on expectation of profits based on the performance of a core group, ICOs turn what should be a competition for creating the best technology into a fist fucking fest of ad hominem and political games:

Let's psychoanalyze those want to troll me with a thread like this. Actually I have no censorship motivated objection about making a thread about me (I wish so much, it was possible to do something great without attaining any personal fame), it just feels really stupid because I (the idealist in me) think the technology is more important than the person, which is one of the main reasons I hate vaporware ICOs.

This thread serves mainly to deflect attention away from Dash's instamine scam.

+1 for conscious reason.

The subconscious reason this thread exists is the psychological phenomenon that it is better to destroy everyone, than to fail alone.

"I dropped my ice cream in the mud, so now I am throwing mud on your ice cream so we are the same, because God hates us equally".

This is what socialism built. Equality is prosperity, because fairness is the uniformity of nature's Gaussian distribution. Equality is a human right! Didn't you know that!

They would rather waste the time of important coders whose time would be better spent coding a solution for humanity, so as to satisfy their inability to accept their mistakes and jealousy.

7. ICOs have less liquidity because they are not widely distributed and due to #5:

you can read my observations here.

Interesting post.

The salient quote is of course:

Why litecoin? Liquidity. These guys own 5 and 6 digits amount of BTC. They need massive liquidity to increase their holdings by any significant degree. And as such litecoin has been a blessing. Will history repeat itself?

I've had that in my mind for a loooong time. Liquidity is absolutely necessary for the design, marketing, and distribution of crypto-currency, if you want to succeed.

[bitwhizz]

When will IOTA GUI be released?

[Come-from-Beyond]

When will IOTA GUI be released?

All info is available in normal Iota threads.

[r0ach]

There were some interesting criticisms about the evolution from JINN to IOTA in the "gadgetcoin" thread (some other IoT fantasy where the thread is now locked) that Come from Beyond didn't seem to have any rebuttal for:

There is no significant improvement and of course there is no breakthrough in microprocessor design in the last 25 years. All major instruction sets (RISC, CISC, EDGE, EPIC, MISC, etc) has been around for a while and the combined over US$ 10 billion R&D budget per year of Intel, AMD, Samsung, Motorola, TI and IBM couldn't produce any new architectural design in the last 20 years. Despite the most brilliant engineers and scientist are employed by those R&D departments there is no manufacturable breakthrough whatsoever. And then comes a 24 years old boy from Scandinavia with absolutely zero experience in the industry and an anonymous java developer from Belarus. All experience they have is the "successful" scam of NXT, and these two (again with zero experience in the most difficult field of technology) announce that they will deliver a revolutionary, game changer, asynchronous microprocessor design. They announce this on a Bitcoin talk forum to collect money from a few idiots who due to lack of experience and common sense in fact "invested" in these two scammers by believing that these two will sell a new microprocessor and then pay dividends. Now, if you see this in the Silicon Valley TV comedy then this is a hilariously funny story, but these two wankers actually pulled out this scam with real people's real money.
Of course they will never ever deliver any microprocessor. JINN was a a pathetic and desperate lie to get out money from the greedy and delusional crowd.

The story is same with IOTA. There is no profitable IoT startup exists, all IoT startups are on the life line of angel an VC investments as the large service integrators and manufacturers keep the revenue source for themselves. No IoT startup could come up with a sustainable monetization strategy yet nor could build a sustainable IoT business (no wonder the GadgetNet team couldn't as well and has little chance to succeed). No problem, here comes again the 24 years old boy and the anonymous Belarusian. Now Internet of Things is the sector in which they have absolutely zero experience, and therefore the outcome will be naturally the same as with JINN: nothing will be delivered except the Pump & Dump of IOTA, which I guess makes happy tobeaj2mer01, albert_mt and yourself because you make a handsome "ROI". Again, my question remains: who will be the fucking bagholders at the end of the process?

[Come-from-Beyond]

There were some interesting criticisms about the evolution from JINN to IOTA in the "gadgetcoin" thread (some other IoT fantasy) that Come from Beyond didn't seem to have any rebuttle for:

You have run out of your own shit and now have to use others? Hahaha, looking forward to seeing your next move.

[cryptohunter]

There were some interesting criticisms about the evolution from JINN to IOTA in the "gadgetcoin" thread (some other IoT fantasy) that Come from Beyond didn't seem to have any rebuttle for:

You have run out of your own shit and now have to use others? Hahaha, looking forward to seeing your next move.

hahaha = very unhappy as you told me before. Please cheer up cfb

[r0ach]

There were some interesting criticisms about the evolution from JINN to IOTA in the "gadgetcoin" thread (some other IoT fantasy) that Come from Beyond didn't seem to have any rebuttle for:

You have run out of your own shit and now have to use others? Hahaha, looking forward to seeing your next move.

Not at all.  I just recently saw someone mention the word "gadgetcoin" claiming it wasn't a turdcoin (that's debatable) and I never heard of it before.  I went to their thread and it's full of people saying JINN and IOTA are scams, then the thread was locked...

[LiQio]

Not at all.  I just recently saw someone mention the word "gadgetcoin" claiming it wasn't a turdcoin (that's debatable) and I never heard of it before.  I went to their thread and it's full of people saying JINN and IOTA are scams, then the thread was locked...

Did the original r0ach sell his account?

Pseudo-r0ach what's your take on the thread-locking? Looks highly suspicious, maybe a Russian spin-off of the 'Ndrangheta?

[Come-from-Beyond]

I went to their thread and it's full of people saying JINN and IOTA are scams, then the thread was locked...

Actually it was one person who posted under multiple accounts. I haven't read that thread, but I'm 99% sure my guess is right.

PS: I'm stil waiting for that move from you...

[altcoinUK]

I went to their thread and it's full of people saying JINN and IOTA are scams, then the thread was locked...

Actually it was one person who posted under multiple accounts. I haven't read that thread, but I'm 99% sure my guess is right.

PS: I'm stil waiting for that move from you...

Ohhhh you piece of shit, low life belarusian scammer. It's not enough your fucking business partner, the chief wanker of Norway, David boy took the GDC developers and GDC supporters for a ride by pulling their time and misleading them about collaboration, but you keep accusing them again with scam? It's not enough your trolling was made them to close their thread, they wanted peace and moved away from here, but you can't stop talking about them? That small coin with their 10 supporters needed to close their thread because you trolled it in 24/7. You piece of shit scammer. You, Sergey from the shithole of Belarus, the most excessive sockpuppet and shill operator of Bitcointalk, you are saying that other projects use sockpuppets. TPTB_need_war was right about you, how low moral wanker you are.

Gadgetcoin had no more than 8 supporters. Lasting, chocobo, netzer, tojbear, myself plus the not supporter barabbas who posted in the GDC thread and criticised your blatant IOTA scam are not "one person", they are all (except barabbas) are in the GDC private forum. They have understood you know nothing about IoT, you have nothing in IoT, and therefore they have pointed it out. (Now as you understand there is a private GDC forum, change to your Edward something sockpuppet account and send mtomcdev the GDC dev a message from your Edward nick. OK?)

[Come-from-Beyond]

Ohhhh you piece of shit, low life belarusian scammer. It's not enough your fucking business partner, the chief wanker of Norway, David boy took the GDC developers to a ride by pulling their time and misleading them and the GDC supporters about collaboration, but you keep accusing them again with scam? It's not enough your trolling was made them to close their thread, they wanted peace and moved away from here, but you can't stop talking about them? That small coin with their 10 supporters needed to close their thread because you trolled it in 24/7. You piece of shit scammer. You, Sergey from the shithole of Belarus, the most excessive sockpuppet and shill operator of Bitcointalk, you are saying that other projects use sockpuppets. TPTB_need_war was right about you, how low moral wanker you are.

Gadgetcoin had no more than 8 supporters. Lasting, chocobo, netzer, tojbear, myself plus the not supporter barabbas who posted in the GDC thread and criticised your blatant IOTA scam are not "one person", they are all (except barabbas) are in the GDC private forum. They have understood you know nothing about IoT, you have nothing in IoT, and therefore they have pointed it out. (Now as you understand there is a private GDC forum, change to your Edward something sockpuppet account and send mtomcdev the GDC dev a message from your Edward nick. OK?)

Percentage of strong words in your posts is increasing, I like it. Looks like you have finally realized that after I knew your other identity you got no a single chance to conduct your scam scheme without being prosecuted. I feel your despair...

[r0ach]

Did the original r0ach sell his account?

Pseudo-r0ach what's your take on the thread-locking? Looks highly suspicious, maybe a Russian spin-off of the 'Ndrangheta?

Cryptocurrency would be pretty boring without the Russians.  Every pool I've ever seen where some clown is trying to fake shares to steal coins from miners, the IP addresses always trace back to Russia.

[LiQio]

Did the original r0ach sell his account?

Pseudo-r0ach what's your take on the thread-locking? Looks highly suspicious, maybe a Russian spin-off of the 'Ndrangheta?

Cryptocurrency would be pretty boring without the Russians.  Every pool I've ever seen where some clown is trying to fake shares to steal coins from miners, the IP addresses always trace back to Russia.

Is that a hidden confession?

[r0ach]

Did the original r0ach sell his account?

Pseudo-r0ach what's your take on the thread-locking? Looks highly suspicious, maybe a Russian spin-off of the 'Ndrangheta?

Cryptocurrency would be pretty boring without the Russians.  Every pool I've ever seen where some clown is trying to fake shares to steal coins from miners, the IP addresses always trace back to Russia.

Is that a hidden confession?

You think I sold my account?  Somebody like Smooth, Fluffypony, Wolf, Anonymint, or Realsolid can probably verify I haven't.  Let's cut the bullshit.  You weren't actually serious and have money in IOTA ICO and are worried this thread will do damage.  If you think I typed something in this thread that conflicts with past views (like thinking PoS might have some merit), it's definitely possible because it takes a long time before people are fully able to comprehend what can and can't be done while still remaining a decentralized currency.  Even the Gavinator speculated a long time ago that Bitcoin might turn into PoS someday, but he would likely want to erase or deny that comment now.

I'm sure someday Come from Beyond will look back and say, "Wow...NXT...what was I thinking...".  I'm sure he knows this IOTA coin is pretty flaky too, and the fact that it requires checkpoints out of the gate creates a chicken and egg scenario where no business would actually adopt it until the checkpoints are gone, but you can't remove checkpoints until businesses adopt it, so it turns into just some bizarre long con.  Issues like that are just in addition to the ones already posted in this thread.