SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc

[kibblesnbits]

If I was Jon, I'd post a pic or some kind of documentation showing that insurance was purchased for that order.  If they can't provide it, refund the order or get scammer tag.  If Coinabul can provide the proper docs, let em hash it out in small claims court. 

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[kibblesnbits]

May not seem logical, but it's the rules of law.  Coinabul is disputing the liability.  When you say "in fact liable", unless you've got some black robes and juris doctorate we dont know about, you can't "in fact liable" anything.

You've got some kind of PROOF that shows Coinabul DIDN'T have any insurance for this shipment?  It's a liability dispute.  Coinabul believes that they are not liable.  Buyer believes Coinabul is liable.  Up to a judge to decide in a civil decision.

If buyer decides to go through with a civil subpoena and prove that Coinabul didn't insure the package, then go ahead with your scammer label.

Good enough logic fer ya?

This forum has its own rules, so tagging Coinabul as a scammer is completely separate from the court of law.

You're right.  However throwing that tag around without some kind of proofs will diminish the "scammer tag" to the point that it's meaningless.  In my opinion? You've got to show some clear intent that Coinabul wanted to save some profit by not insuring or under-insuring the package.

[Raoul Duke]

May not seem logical, but it's the rules of law.  Coinabul is disputing the liability.  When you say "in fact liable", unless you've got some black robes and juris doctorate we dont know about, you can't "in fact liable" anything.

You've got some kind of PROOF that shows Coinabul DIDN'T have any insurance for this shipment?  It's a liability dispute.  Coinabul believes that they are not liable.  Buyer believes Coinabul is liable.  Up to a judge to decide in a civil decision.

If buyer decides to go through with a civil subpoena and prove that Coinabul didn't insure the package, then go ahead with your scammer label.

Good enough logic fer ya?

This forum has its own rules, so tagging Coinabul as a scammer is completely separate from the court of law.

You're right.  However throwing that tag around without some kind of proofs will diminish the "scammer tag" to the point that it's meaningless.  In my opinion? You've got to show some clear intent that Coinabul wanted to save some profit by not insuring or under-insuring the package.

Excuse me, but what would they be saving if the customer was the one who paid extra for the insurance?
I wouldn't call it save some profit, but stealing would fit right in...

MY STORY: I paid Coinabul 81.8251 btc for an order of silver on July 30, 2012. I paid extra for insured shipping.

[kibblesnbits]

From Coinabuls TOS:

Dispute Resolution  It is our goal that all disputes can be resolved in a timely fashion. To that end, use of any Coinabul service requires that you agree to dispute resolution as outlined below: 1.Forum Selection: The State courts of Wyoming shall have jurisdiction in any disputes. Disputes must be resolved within those courts. By using any Coinabul service, you agree to waive any objection to the jurisdiction of those courts. 2.Governing Law: This User Agreement shall be governed and interpreted in agreement with the laws of Wyoming. 3.Waiver of Jury Trial: Arbitration: BOTH COINABUL AND YOU WAIVE YOUR RIGHT TO TRAIL BY JURY AND ARBITRATION IN THE EVENT OF ANY DISPUTE.  Liability  Failure to perform or delay in the performance of any of our obligations due to events that are beyond our control is excusable, and Coinabul cannot be held responsible or liable for any losses or damages incurred because of such events.  Further Assurances  By using any Coinabul service, you agree to complete and provide any other reasonable documentation or actions which may be required.  Notices  All communications with us must be through an authorized agent of Coinabul in the state of Wyoming. All communications to you will be sent to the mailing address, or e-mail address you provided upon registration.     Absence of Waivers Any failure or decision not to take action in response to any of your failures to comply with these Conditions of Use does not affect the ability of Coinabul to act upon any other such failure.     Severability    If any term of the User Agreement is found to be unenforceable under the applicable laws, it does not affect the enforceability of any other term. If you have any questions regarding Coinabul, contact us: via email at contact@Coinabul.com, or by phone at 1-321-222-7748, or by mail at 2710 Thomes Ave, Cheyenne WY, 82001.

The "TRAIL" by jury made me lol.  If I were the buyer, I'd start the procedure with the Wyoming courts.  Stay off the trails though, I hear theres big bear out there.

[Surpbitcoin]

From Coinabuls TOS:

Dispute Resolution  It is our goal that all disputes can be resolved in a timely fashion. To that end, use of any Coinabul service requires that you agree to dispute resolution as outlined below: 1.Forum Selection: The State courts of Wyoming shall have jurisdiction in any disputes. Disputes must be resolved within those courts. By using any Coinabul service, you agree to waive any objection to the jurisdiction of those courts. 2.Governing Law: This User Agreement shall be governed and interpreted in agreement with the laws of Wyoming. 3.Waiver of Jury Trial: Arbitration: BOTH COINABUL AND YOU WAIVE YOUR RIGHT TO TRAIL BY JURY AND ARBITRATION IN THE EVENT OF ANY DISPUTE.  Liability  Failure to perform or delay in the performance of any of our obligations due to events that are beyond our control is excusable, and Coinabul cannot be held responsible or liable for any losses or damages incurred because of such events.  Further Assurances  By using any Coinabul service, you agree to complete and provide any other reasonable documentation or actions which may be required.  Notices  All communications with us must be through an authorized agent of Coinabul in the state of Wyoming. All communications to you will be sent to the mailing address, or e-mail address you provided upon registration.     Absence of Waivers Any failure or decision not to take action in response to any of your failures to comply with these Conditions of Use does not affect the ability of Coinabul to act upon any other such failure.     Severability    If any term of the User Agreement is found to be unenforceable under the applicable laws, it does not affect the enforceability of any other term. If you have any questions regarding Coinabul, contact us: via email at contact@Coinabul.com, or by phone at 1-321-222-7748, or by mail at 2710 Thomes Ave, Cheyenne WY, 82001.

The "TRAIL" by jury made me lol.  If I were the buyer, I'd start the procedure with the Wyoming courts.  Stay off the trails though, I hear theres big bear out there.

Dont you just love coinable's head office. Check it out!

https://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=2710+thomes+ave+cheyenne+wy+82001&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x876f3a93a5c892d5:0x468b99bf478d1dd9,2710+Thomes+Ave,+Cheyenne,+WY+82001,+USA&gl=ca&ei=1Vk7Ud-EOtCUqwH1j4HQAQ&ved=0CC4Q8gEwAA

[SaltySpitoon]

So u expect the customer to take responsibility for the failings of the shipper? You are crazy. If he ordered something he should receive it. If it did not turn up on time, you would expect anyone to replace the item under their cost. The only way that it could possibly be his fault is that a neighbor or someone signed for it and it then went missing. As it was delivered to the correct address. Any other company in the world would ship a replacement, even if it meant they took a loss for the year.

Phil

No, but you can't expect the shipper to be penalized for the fault of the shipping company IF he filed everything correctly. If he did in fact place adequate and proper insurance on the package, and did ship it out, and the shipping company is refusing to pay the insurance claim for whatever bs reason, its not the buyer or sellers fault. So it comes down to, A. the buyer gets screwed due to no fault of their own, or B. the seller gets screwed due to no fault of their own.

[Bitinvestor]

Coinabul believes that they are not liable.  Buyer believes Coinabul is liable.  Up to a judge to decide in a civil decision.

Yeah, right. The buyer is in Australia and the seller is in the US. Coinabul knows very well that it would be very difficult and expensive to bring legal action against him and that's why he says he isn't liable. Almost everybody else, yourself included, believes that he is indeed liable. He scammed him because he thought he would get away with it. Hopefully this shitstorm will cost him more than he gained from it.

[LoweryCBS]

What is the relationship between bitcoinstore.com and coinabul?

Should we preemptively request clarification from bitcoinstore on their policy?

I can't believe they haven't fucking refunded yet. Will not ever do business with Coinabul after reading this.

Don't forget that Jon works at or co-owns BitcoinStore.com also.
I know I'm not buying anything there now. inb4 they try to pull the same stunt.
I'll just buy on real shops who will let me chargeback non-delivered merchandise.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

From Coinabuls TOS:

Dispute Resolution  It is our goal that all disputes can be resolved in a timely fashion. To that end, use of any Coinabul service requires that you agree to dispute resolution as outlined below: 1.Forum Selection: The State courts of Wyoming shall have jurisdiction in any disputes. Disputes must be resolved within those courts. By using any Coinabul service, you agree to waive any objection to the jurisdiction of those courts. 2.Governing Law: This User Agreement shall be governed and interpreted in agreement with the laws of Wyoming. 3.Waiver of Jury Trial: Arbitration: BOTH COINABUL AND YOU WAIVE YOUR RIGHT TO TRAIL BY JURY AND ARBITRATION IN THE EVENT OF ANY DISPUTE.  Liability  Failure to perform or delay in the performance of any of our obligations due to events that are beyond our control is excusable, and Coinabul cannot be held responsible or liable for any losses or damages incurred because of such events.  Further Assurances  By using any Coinabul service, you agree to complete and provide any other reasonable documentation or actions which may be required.  Notices  All communications with us must be through an authorized agent of Coinabul in the state of Wyoming. All communications to you will be sent to the mailing address, or e-mail address you provided upon registration.     Absence of Waivers Any failure or decision not to take action in response to any of your failures to comply with these Conditions of Use does not affect the ability of Coinabul to act upon any other such failure.     Severability    If any term of the User Agreement is found to be unenforceable under the applicable laws, it does not affect the enforceability of any other term. If you have any questions regarding Coinabul, contact us: via email at contact@Coinabul.com, or by phone at 1-321-222-7748, or by mail at 2710 Thomes Ave, Cheyenne WY, 82001.

The "TRAIL" by jury made me lol.  If I were the buyer, I'd start the procedure with the Wyoming courts.  Stay off the trails though, I hear theres big bear out there.

Dont you just love coinable's head office. Check it out!

https://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=2710+thomes+ave+cheyenne+wy+82001&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x876f3a93a5c892d5:0x468b99bf478d1dd9,2710+Thomes+Ave,+Cheyenne,+WY+82001,+USA&gl=ca&ei=1Vk7Ud-EOtCUqwH1j4HQAQ&ved=0CC4Q8gEwAA

Although I'm leaning heavily toward the buyer, I opted to not get involve in this issue on this front, but since I see that the 2710 address is still being use, despite what I was led to believe otherwise, this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=48022.0

Jay, bud, you still have an opportunity to turn this around. I suggest you go into crisis management mode. $500 is nothing when you look at the broader picture, albeit the frame needed is getting smaller with each passing day/hour/minute.

Peace, bro.

~Bruno Kuc...~

[mjsbuddha]

In my opinion its not a scam, they just use some shitty business practices. Not evil, just negligent. I wouldn't use the service either way.

[davidspitzer]

In my opinion its not a scam, they just use some shitty business practices. Not evil, just negligent. I wouldn't use the service either way.

I would agree.  Scam, in my mind, infers intent to defraud from the inception. I don't think they set out to take his money. That said, they have made a very bad business decision by not reimbursing the gentleman. I will also not purchase again from coinabul.

[Raoul Duke]

What is the relationship between bitcoinstore.com and coinabul?

They share the same Marketing Director, Mr. Jon Holmquist, it seems.

http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Guest-Page.htm?No=00662

Jon Holmquist
 
Jon Holmquist, head of Marketing at Coinabul, has been involved with Bitcoin for almost two years. With a focus on Bitcoin businesses, Jon aims to make the highly technical Bitcoin easily understood by anyone. Jon is involved with Coinabul (a Gold for Bitcoin merchant), with the site WeUseCoins (the best website for people new to Bitcoin), as well as recently launched website, BitcoinStore.com, which is selling electronics for prices lower than both Amazon and NewEgg. Jon recently founded the site BitcoinFriday after seeing a lack of merchant sales in Bitcoin as well as a lack of organization between Bitcoin vendors. Webpages to link to: http://bitcoinfriday.com http://coinabul.com http://bitcoinstore.com Video to link to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Um63OQz3bjo

[Coinabul]

What is the relationship between bitcoinstore.com and coinabul?

They share the same Marketing Director, Mr. Jon Holmquist, it seems.

http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Guest-Page.htm?No=00662

Jon Holmquist
 
Jon Holmquist, head of Marketing at Coinabul, has been involved with Bitcoin for almost two years. With a focus on Bitcoin businesses, Jon aims to make the highly technical Bitcoin easily understood by anyone. Jon is involved with Coinabul (a Gold for Bitcoin merchant), with the site WeUseCoins (the best website for people new to Bitcoin), as well as recently launched website, BitcoinStore.com, which is selling electronics for prices lower than both Amazon and NewEgg. Jon recently founded the site BitcoinFriday after seeing a lack of merchant sales in Bitcoin as well as a lack of organization between Bitcoin vendors. Webpages to link to: http://bitcoinfriday.com http://coinabul.com http://bitcoinstore.com Video to link to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Um63OQz3bjo

I work with BitcoinStore and Coinabul.

No other link than that.

-Jon

[Bitinvestor]

Scam, in my mind, infers intent to defraud from the inception.

You're wrong. Scam is a slang word and it doesn't have a precise legal definition.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/scam

[kibblesnbits]

Scam, in my mind, infers intent to defraud from the inception.

You're wrong. Scam is a slang word and it doesn't have a precise legal definition.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/scam

It's a slang word, just like "offing" or "whacking" someone means to murder.  If I accuse you of whacking someone it's the same as an accusation of murder.  If you're accusing someone of scamming, you're accusing them of the intent to commit fraud.  What's your definition of a scammer?

[davidspitzer]

Scam, in my mind, infers intent to defraud from the inception.

You're wrong. Scam is a slang word and it doesn't have a precise legal definition.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/scam

Did I say it was a legal definition?  I said, in my mind.

[Raoul Duke]

What's your definition of a scammer?

http://trendonshavers.com/

[davidspitzer]

Scam, in my mind, infers intent to defraud from the inception.

You're wrong. Scam is a slang word and it doesn't have a precise legal definition.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/scam

It's a slang word, just like "offing" or "whacking" someone means to murder.  If I accuse you of whacking someone it's the same as an accusation of murder.  If you're accusing someone of scamming, you're accusing them of the intent to commit fraud.  What's your definition of a scammer?

If you want to get technical websters defines scam as:

Main Entry: 1scam
Pronunciation: \ˈskam\
Function: noun
Etymology: origin unknown
Date: 1963
: a fraudulent or deceptive act or operation <an insurance scam>
------------

My note;
Both fraud and deception require intent.  I fail to see the point of disputing wether a Scam requires prior intent other than to be contrary

[Bitinvestor]

I fail to see the point of disputing wether a Scam requires prior intent other than to be contrary

You, not me, started this BS about scam requiring prior intent.

[davidspitzer]

I fail to see the point of disputing wether a Scam requires prior intent other than to be contrary

You, not me, started this BS about scam requiring prior intent.

So you position is that the plain meaning of a word is bullshit? Please explain your alternative reality view of how to define scam without intent. A scam without intent has a name it's called negligence. I am fascinated please continue. Sometimes it's better to abandon a poorly constructed premise rather than continue to argue it in the absence if evidence or logic; but please continue if you feel compelled to do so.