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Author Topic: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 81btc  (Read 26672 times)
shiftybugger
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March 05, 2013, 09:38:36 AM
 #1

MY STORY: I paid Coinabul 81.8251 btc for an order of silver on July 30, 2012. I paid extra for insured shipping. I didn't receive anything. I have been given no proof that anything was sent. They strung me along for seven months, with half promises of paying out of their own pockets to cover it but never committing to anything. They only gave a final answer when I started a thread here on bitcointalk. Their answer: Sorry, we can't help you.

THEIR STORY: They claim that they sent my order on August 22. They claim that they filed a claim with their insurance company for a lost shipment but the claim was rejected because the value of the order had changed past some arbitrary threshold such that the policy no longer covers it. Coinabul refuse to replace the order or the bitcoins.

WHY THE SCAMMER TAG:
- The insurance company obviously has something in their T&Cs which states that if the value of an item changes by a certain percent or value, then they won't cover it. Coinabul should reasonably have known about this.
- Silver is a volatile market. Coinabul should have reasonably expected the price of silver to fluctuate between taking out the insurance and a possible claim.
- The above two points together show that Coinabul could (and should) have reasonably taken steps to ensure that their insurance arrangements were adequate to cover market fluctuations, but was negligent in failing to do so.
- I could not have reasonably known about this or taken steps to avoid this, not being a party to the insurance contract or having access to the details of the contract.
- Coinabul, not I, have been negligent in this instance and should therefore be culpable. To use an example from the thread linked below, if my auto insurance company refuses to cover me because my claim breaches the insurance contract, after I've already had repairs done, I can't just refuse to pay the shop.
- The insurance policy is between Coinabul and the insurer. It has nothing to do with me. It's not my responsibility. Why should I be out of pocket?

For the original discussion and more info, see this tread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=144611.0
It gets a bit hijacked on the first page or two, just read around it.
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March 05, 2013, 02:15:41 PM
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^^^ are you serious ?
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March 05, 2013, 02:18:43 PM
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Sounds weird. I've never had a problem in more than 10 years shipping gold and silver all over the world. This is why you ALWAYS get a tracking number for a shipment and you ALWAYS ship insured. It sounds very very weird that the package was sent without tracking and the insurance company is rejecting the claim. I'd probably talk to a lawyer, because this isn't really a scam. It's not really CoinaBul's problem that the insurance company is rejecting the claim, but if I was CoinaBul I would switch insurance companies immediately and/or stop telling people their shipments are insured.

If this happened to me, I don't know if I would really have a right to get my money back. It feels like I should deserve my money back, but it's not really CoinaBul's problem, that's the honest truth about it. However, I will say this, if this kind of thing happens a lot it might be better to avoid CoinaBul because their supply chain is unreliable. You can't allow stuff like this to happen in your supply chain ever.

USPS will deny claims on coins if they weren't sent as a registered mail.

A customer paid for an insured shipment, it wasn't insured due to some issue that was out of customer's control.

Scam or not, but sounds like it's Coinabul's loss. Unless they can prove that the package was properly insured.
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March 05, 2013, 02:25:03 PM
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Ask for proof of postage.

No proof = No Post

Maybe it was an admin error, I guess no-one will really ever know apart from coinabul?

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March 05, 2013, 04:40:23 PM
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I was pretty shocked that Coinabul didn't cover your loss. They seemed reputable.

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March 05, 2013, 04:51:33 PM
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My orders with Coinable have arrived on time and as advertised, to me they seem like a reliable company. However if this situation as described in the OP is true, there is no reason for them to refuse a refund. The issue with the insurance claim was their mistake, unless there are details to this situation that we don't know.

I would like to hear Coinable's response to this, and reasoning for not taking responsibility.
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March 05, 2013, 04:53:56 PM
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I was pretty shocked that Coinabul didn't cover your loss. They seemed reputable.

OP did not lose anything, it was coinabul who lost it...
Fine, "the loss of your purchase." I thought what I was saying was fairly clear.

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March 05, 2013, 04:54:08 PM
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I have PM'ed Coinabul regarding this. They're a good and reputable company, and I expect this to be resolved either way amicably so hold your horses guys.

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March 05, 2013, 05:42:48 PM
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I have PM'ed Coinabul regarding this. They're a good and reputable company

Until this gets solved, I would put that in the past tense.
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March 05, 2013, 05:45:33 PM
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Watching as well.

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March 05, 2013, 06:16:40 PM
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Should this be added to the pending scammer list?

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March 05, 2013, 09:55:09 PM
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A few of the pirate passthroughs got the tag when they claimed deposits were insured. I would be pissed if I paid insurance on a delivery and found out it wasnt after it goes missing.



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March 05, 2013, 10:02:15 PM
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Should this be added to the pending scammer list?
No, it's been stated several times that coinabul will probably solve this in a nice way.  I've, personally, had a good order with them.

They are not a scam.

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March 05, 2013, 10:04:16 PM
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Should this be added to the pending scammer list?
No, it's been stated several times that coinabul will probably solve this in a nice way.  I've, personally, had a good order with them.

They are not a scam.
I've personally had an order that's comparable to a Butterfly Labs ASIC preorder.

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March 05, 2013, 11:06:29 PM
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Should this be added to the pending scammer list?
No, it's been stated several times that coinabul will probably solve this in a nice way.  I've, personally, had a good order with them.

They are not a scam.
I've personally had an order that's comparable to a Butterfly Labs ASIC preorder.

Did you receive it?

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March 06, 2013, 05:55:22 AM
 #16

Kris,

   
"I have been given no proof that anything was sent."

We gave you your tracking number countless times: here it is again at LJ664423272US. You've stated on multiple occasions that we provided no tracking information to you, and this is quite simply an outright lie. Every order, even uninsured parcels, carry tracking information which is always entered into our systems and transmitted to each customer instantly as your order is shipped.

"They strung me along for seven months, with half promises of paying out of their own pockets to cover it but never committing to anything."

We were very communicative with you on a non-stop basis, but despite this you proceeded to send me far too many messages which were all responded to graciously, and at horrendous times of day for us(such as 4:30AM Sunday) in the USA, in an effort to provide you the best customer service we could:
[Sunday, October 28, 2012] [04:22:40 AM] <coingenuity>   anyway, i'm still wrangling with my insurance company, they're giving me a hassle about covering your parcel because the value changed over their arbitrary limit between when it was sent and when it didn't show up
[Sunday, October 28, 2012] [04:23:22 AM] <coingenuity>   in essence, they're saying that because it changed in value by X% they won't cover it, even for the original value... so i'm harassing them on the phone to see if i can do anything about it

An excerpt from the insurance company in question:
"In looking at my notes, we spoke over the phone about this on 10/25/2012. At that time, I explained that the shipment exceeded your per parcel limit for USPS First Class International packages."


The date correlations between this excerpt and the next should be noted. I was still willing to cover a good portion portion out of pocket at that point, despite nonstop messages on IRC:
[Thursday, November 01, 2012] [10:51:26 PM] <shiftybugger>   hey, any updates?
[Saturday, November 03, 2012] [07:02:50 PM] <shiftybugger>   ping
[Sunday, November 04, 2012] [09:15:15 PM] <shiftybugger>   ping
[Monday, November 05, 2012] [02:49:34 AM] <shiftybugger>   ping
[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:38:57 PM] <shiftybugger>   ping



Excerpt:
[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:41:26 PM] <coingenuity>   but in the mean time I'm still hassling with the insurance company, who's adamant about not covering this parcel
[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:46:50 PM] <shiftybugger>   are they final on that or is it still ongoing?
[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:49:35 PM] <coingenuity>   they seem pretty final, but I'm still hassling them to see what can be done
[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:55:08 PM] <shiftybugger>   Ok. I'd appreciate if you could let me know how this looks like ending as soon as you know. I'm getting out of mining once block reward halves and was going to go with bullion to cash out as it's less hassle than Mt Gox. Need to decide if it's viable.
[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:56:27 PM] <coingenuity>   absolutely, and if I can't get them to properly cover the parcel I'll quite possibly end up covering a portion of the loss out of pocket in replacements


Through all of this, I was happy to communicate with you, but it quickly became obvious you were attempting to bully us into replacing the cost of your items out-of-pocket with the attitude that it was an obligation, as opposed to a kindness.

While I explained to you that I'd likely do so, you send me continual messages on IRC to the point that it appeared scripted. I'd sit down at my computer, move my mouse, and instantly see another message from you. This was generally multiple times per day, for months, in addition to phone calls and emails at a similar frequency.


A small excerpt from my log follows:
[Sunday, December 16, 2012] [12:36:02 AM] <shiftybugger>   ping
[Sunday, December 16, 2012] [02:02:10 PM] <shiftybugger>   ping
[Sunday, December 16, 2012] [10:19:15 PM] <shiftybugger>   ping
[Tuesday, December 18, 2012] [01:35:47 AM] <shiftybugger>   ping
[Tuesday, December 18, 2012] [06:43:16 PM] <shiftybugger>   ping
[Thursday, December 20, 2012] [03:24:48 AM] <shiftybugger>   ping
[Thursday, December 20, 2012] [07:15:32 PM] <shiftybugger>   ping




Eventually, you managed to use up all the patience I had with trying to provide you support, and through continual harassment managed to dissuade me from paying for your order out of my own pocket. When I started this battle with the insurance company in question over covering your parcel, I went into it with the intent of covering AT LEAST half of your order out of sheer kindness, and was considering whether I could afford to cover 100% of the cost when you started to continually harass me. When it didn't stop for weeks, and then months, I became very quickly opposed to covering your shipment from my own pocket.



- The insurance company obviously has something in their T&Cs which states that if the value of an item changes by a certain percent or value, then they won't cover it. Coinabul should reasonably have known about this.

Having insurance coverage on bullion shipments, let alone worldwide coverage, while being able to provide shipping service at a reasonable cost to customers is a nearly impossible challenge. Carrier level insurance doesn't even cover bullion, and if it appears to do so the likelihood of them making good on any submitted claim is slim to none. To this end, successfully structuring international insurance on bullion parcels is a difficult thing to achieve, and we take every possible step to remain in compliance with our insurers' terms such that each parcel is covered to the best of our ability, but ultimately the discretion of whether to pay an insurance claim lies with the underwriter. Considering that almost no insurance companies are willing to cover bullion transit, the very few who do are wary of fraudulent claims. The insurance industry is wrought with fraudulent insurance claims, and many millions if not billions of dollars per year are lost by underwriters to fraudulent claims. While we generally have great success with insuring our parcels(you are our only rejected claim, in fact, throughout the entire history of insuring thousands of individual parcels at Coinabul) the insurance company must make the final determination as to the validity of each customer's claim and appraise the legitimacy.

- Silver is a volatile market. Coinabul should have reasonably expected the price of silver to fluctuate between taking out the insurance and a possible claim.

In terms of actual value, I will give you a real-time example. On a shipment in our disbursement queue, there is an actual $143 silver cost, and we've insured for $228, for a massive 60% buffer zone above silver spot price in order to ensure that spot price fluctuations in transit do not prove to be an issue. This costs us substantially more per month in insurance fees than we would otherwise incurr simply to ensure that spot price volatility proves to be no issue.

- The insurance policy is between Coinabul and the insurer. It has nothing to do with me.

The insurance policy has everything to do with you: you are the one who stands to benefit from a fraudulent claim, nobody else. We did our part and sent your product to you, and insured it under our policy within the limits set forth by the insurance company. If the insurance company refuses to cover the parcel, there's nothing we can do about it except harass them, which we did.


It's quite clear how you yourself contributed to the lack of coverage in this situation. When the insurance company refused to cover your shipment, and I offered to do so, you didn't show so much as a grain of appreciation...instead, you wrote a script to harass me on IRC. After seeing you post about us being non-communicative with you on bitcointalk even after responding to your ostensibly scripted semi-communication, there was no way I was willing to cover your shipment out of my own pocket. We send out millions of dollars worth of products, and expecting us to be responsible for out-of-pocket coverage in the case of an insurance company's refusal to do so is simply unreasonable.

Let's do some math, shall we?
So, assume 17oz of silver costs you $500. You send us Bitcoins, and by the time we're finished processing your shipment we've made $0.50-$0.75/oz. So, sum total $8.50-$12.75 give or take. For us to earn the cost of covering your order out of pocket, we must process the same order 59 times on the high end, 40 times on the low end. You can see very quickly that this makes it impossible to simply absorb the cost of sending a replacement product, especially if you consider that the products we are sending are liquid. We aren't sending a DVD player that depreciates when you sell it to your friend after it's in your hands, we are sending a highly valuable commodity which makes it quite easy for people to defraud our insured shipping process. To call for a scammer tag as we continually deliver Ferrari's worth of bullion to customers each month is simply ludicrous.

Although I've been quite clear with you in the past and I'm not quite sure as to the goal of your continued fabrications excepting a desire to besmirch, hopefully this helps you understand the circumstances a little more clearly.

-Jay

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March 06, 2013, 07:09:20 AM
 #17

Regardless of how badly he has harassed you, it doesn't change the facts that:
1) He paid you for silver
2) He didn't receive said silver

If your insurance is bad, that is YOUR problem, not his.  You should have reimbursed him immediately, and then attempted to collect from your insurance to recover the funds for yourself.  Offering to reimburse him for half of what he paid and expecting him to be thankful to you for it is absurd.

You complain about thin margins - well, that's the game you play.  It doesn't matter how many similar-sized orders it would take to recover the loss, the onus is on you to do so, not on your customer.  If you want thicker margins, then increase your prices.

The only exception I see here is if you believe the customer is scamming you.  Are you making such a claim?

Sorry Coinabul, but you're in the wrong on this one.  The customer deserves either a full refund or the correct amount of silver re-shipped to him.

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March 06, 2013, 07:21:14 AM
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The only exception I see here is if you believe the customer is scamming you.  Are you making such a claim?

Sorry Coinabul, but you're in the wrong on this one.  The customer deserves either a full refund or the correct amount of silver re-shipped to him.
[/quote]

Hmmm....

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March 06, 2013, 07:23:28 AM
 #19

Not really as authoritative as a supreme court ruling, but googling I did find this:

Quote
If fedex denies an insurance claim for damaged goods I shipped via their service, am I liable as a seller to replace or repair that item at my own cost? buyer is threatening to sue me, but I did all possible to ensure item was protected and insured for transit. What is my responsibility?

I am sorry to learn of your circumstances. Unfortunately, yes, you are liable to repair or replace the damaged items. The buyer can sue you.
It would be up to you, then, to absorb the loss and/or you can sue FedEx for their claim denial and seek reimbursement for your loss.
It has been my pleasure to assist you today with your information needs. If you have a follow-up question, please reply and ask it.


http://www.justanswer.com/law/5mqve-fedex-denies-insurance-claim-damaged-goods-shipped.html

OP, I would contact a lawyer.

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March 06, 2013, 07:25:34 AM
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Please let me know if this issue gets resolved. If not please post to the master scammer list to add coinabul as a scammer. Thanks 

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March 06, 2013, 07:48:08 AM
 #21

Through all of this, I was happy to communicate with you, but it quickly became obvious you were attempting to bully us into replacing the cost of your items out-of-pocket with the attitude that it was an obligation, as opposed to a kindness.

I'm sorry, but I also think it is your obligation. I agree with those who say that the insurance contract was between you and the insurer, not between your client and the insurer. Unless of course you made it quite explicit to be the other way around in your  ToS. But I don't think doing so is a wise customer policy, and as somebody said above, it's likely to be considered illegal by the US gov.

The insurance industry is wrought with fraudulent insurance claims, and many millions if not billions of dollars per year are lost by underwriters to fraudulent claims.

How come? Isn't the receiver obliged to sign a proof of receipt to retrieve his package?

While we generally have great success with insuring our parcels(you are our only rejected claim, in fact, throughout the entire history of insuring thousands of individual parcels at Coinabul)

That's just one more reason to eat this particular loss. You can dilute it on your other earnings.

The insurance policy has everything to do with you: you are the one who stands to benefit from a fraudulent claim, nobody else.

How?


Summary of my opinion: Coinabul should reimburse its customer, and perhaps change its insurer if the current one really refuses to do his part. Eventually even sue the insurer, if the amount makes it worthy to.

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March 06, 2013, 08:09:42 AM
 #22

Did you have the carrier trace the package? Does the carrier claim they delivered the package to the destination?

I am an employee of Ripple Labs, the company behind the Ripple payment network.
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March 06, 2013, 08:14:07 AM
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I have shipped over 3000 packages and have had 4 lost packages. When a package is lost. I refund the customer first and then try and make a claim. I have never not gotten a refund and the cost of the item back for a lost package.

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March 06, 2013, 08:36:07 AM
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All silver and gold must henceforth only be shipped as pgp digests.

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March 06, 2013, 09:06:57 AM
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What was going on in shiftybugger's mind when he said ping a few dozen times?

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March 06, 2013, 09:13:18 AM
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What was going on in shiftybugger's mind when he said ping a few dozen times?

Look at the timestamps. They are all hours or days apart.

I live on the other side of the planet to them. I would simply log into IRC and ping him to see if he was on. I wasn't trying to harass the guy - communication was just terribly difficult to accomplish on IRC. I would have much preferred email.
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March 06, 2013, 09:18:54 AM
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What was going on in shiftybugger's mind when he said ping a few dozen times?

Look at the timestamps. They are all hours or days apart.

I live on the other side of the planet to them. I would simply log into IRC and ping him to see if he was on. I wasn't trying to harass the guy - communication was just terribly difficult to accomplish on IRC. I would have much preferred email.
I agree, time zones suck but I think a "message me when you're available" or "hey, I want to talk about the package, I'm in AEST and is available X to Y" would be better. Coinabul has a support email, no?

Either way, it doesn't change that it's a lot more of Coinabul's fault than the buyer's fault, and covering the loss would be expected.

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March 06, 2013, 09:23:58 AM
 #28

Who did shiftybugger pay insurance money to?  If he paid it to Coinabul, they are responsible for insuring loss.  They should re-send the original quantity of silver, and use better insurance this time.  If there's some kind of insurance regulators responsible for mail insurers, Coinabul should contact them to pursue reimbursement for their loss.
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March 06, 2013, 09:40:08 AM
 #29

If they don't square this up I will send them a email, informing them I won't purchase anything more from them until they do. I don't they are willing to lose much business on a small order. Although, they don't owe you 81 btc. Only what the dollar value was on the order.
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March 06, 2013, 09:59:16 AM
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whats the dollar value got to do with anything ?
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March 06, 2013, 10:01:58 AM
 #31

Let's 'reality' this down a bit.

Kris,

   
"I have been given no proof that anything was sent."

We gave you your tracking number countless times: here it is again at LJ664423272US. You've stated on multiple occasions that we provided no tracking information to you, and this is quite simply an outright lie. Every order, even uninsured parcels, carry tracking information which is always entered into our systems and transmitted to each customer instantly as your order is shipped.

I'll grant you 'countless' only because I can't be sure if this is the first or second time I have received this number. You may have given it to me over IRC, I can't be sure as I didn't keep all of the logs. It isn't in any of the logs that I have. If so, this is the second time. When were the other times?

Quote
"They strung me along for seven months, with half promises of paying out of their own pockets to cover it but never committing to anything."

We were very communicative with you on a non-stop basis, but despite this you proceeded to send me far too many messages which were all responded to graciously, and at horrendous times of day for us(such as 4:30AM Sunday) in the USA, in an effort to provide you the best customer service we could:
[Sunday, October 28, 2012] [04:22:40 AM] <coingenuity>   anyway, i'm still wrangling with my insurance company, they're giving me a hassle about covering your parcel because the value changed over their arbitrary limit between when it was sent and when it didn't show up
[Sunday, October 28, 2012] [04:23:22 AM] <coingenuity>   in essence, they're saying that because it changed in value by X% they won't cover it, even for the original value... so i'm harassing them on the phone to see if i can do anything about it

An excerpt from the insurance company in question:
"In looking at my notes, we spoke over the phone about this on 10/25/2012. At that time, I explained that the shipment exceeded your per parcel limit for USPS First Class International packages."


The date correlations between this excerpt and the next should be noted. I was still willing to cover a good portion portion out of pocket at that point, despite nonstop messages on IRC:
[Thursday, November 01, 2012] [10:51:26 PM] <shiftybugger>   hey, any updates?
[Saturday, November 03, 2012] [07:02:50 PM] <shiftybugger>   ping
[Sunday, November 04, 2012] [09:15:15 PM] <shiftybugger>   ping
[Monday, November 05, 2012] [02:49:34 AM] <shiftybugger>   ping
[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:38:57 PM] <shiftybugger>   ping



Excerpt:
[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:41:26 PM] <coingenuity>   but in the mean time I'm still hassling with the insurance company, who's adamant about not covering this parcel
[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:46:50 PM] <shiftybugger>   are they final on that or is it still ongoing?
[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:49:35 PM] <coingenuity>   they seem pretty final, but I'm still hassling them to see what can be done
[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:55:08 PM] <shiftybugger>   Ok. I'd appreciate if you could let me know how this looks like ending as soon as you know. I'm getting out of mining once block reward halves and was going to go with bullion to cash out as it's less hassle than Mt Gox. Need to decide if it's viable.
[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:56:27 PM] <coingenuity>   absolutely, and if I can't get them to properly cover the parcel I'll quite possibly end up covering a portion of the loss out of pocket in replacements

Stringing me along - 'quite possibly'. You can see that I was pushing for a decision, an ending, some finality, 'Yes' or 'No'. It wasn't forthcoming, and didn't come until I started the other thread in late February, three months after this excerpt. And the answer was, 'No'.

Nice try at making my contact seem unreasonable. Look at the timestamps. Six failed attempts (the equivalent of a missed call) over five days is hardly excessive when you are being screwed around.

Quote
Through all of this, I was happy to communicate with you, but it quickly became obvious you were attempting to bully us into replacing the cost of your items out-of-pocket with the attitude that it was an obligation, as opposed to a kindness.

Bully you? Please, I beg you, post a chat log that shows anything approaching bullying. I was never anything but polite. I'm pretty sure that the above excerpt was the most pushy that I ever got with you, and that is hardly pushy.

It seems that I'm not the only one here who thinks that it is an obligation.

Quote
While I explained to you that I'd likely do so, you send me continual messages on IRC to the point that it appeared scripted. I'd sit down at my computer, move my mouse, and instantly see another message from you. This was generally multiple times per day, for months, in addition to phone calls and emails at a similar frequency.

I have super powers that let me know when you are at your desk?

I really think you are at least partially confusing me with someone else.
- I have contacted Coinabul TWICE via the contact page on the Coinabul website.
- I have emailed Coinabul EIGHT times total, between Jan 8 and Feb 17 as contact via IRC was difficult to establish.
- I have NEVER spoken to you on the phone or called you. I have no idea what your number is. I don't know what to say about this claim...

Quote
A small excerpt from my log follows:
[Sunday, December 16, 2012] [12:36:02 AM] <shiftybugger>   ping   - late afternoon Sunday for me
[Sunday, December 16, 2012] [02:02:10 PM] <shiftybugger>   ping   - just before bed on Sunday
[Sunday, December 16, 2012] [10:19:15 PM] <shiftybugger>   ping   - before leaving for work on Monday
[Tuesday, December 18, 2012] [01:35:47 AM] <shiftybugger>   ping   - home from work on Tuesday
[Tuesday, December 18, 2012] [06:43:16 PM] <shiftybugger>   ping   - midday on Wednesday
[Thursday, December 20, 2012] [03:24:48 AM] <shiftybugger>   ping   - Thursday evening
[Thursday, December 20, 2012] [07:15:32 PM] <shiftybugger>   ping   - just before bed Thursday evening

Dude, I live on the other side of the planet. I have a 9-5 job and kids. I have a fairly settled routine. You, however, appeared to be on IRC at odd times. So, when I had a spare few minutes I'd drop a ping to see if you were on. If not, I'd go have dinner, or go to bed, or go to work, and try again later. I wasn't harassing you, it was just the limitations of the only communication channel that I was able to establish with you.

Quote
Eventually, you managed to use up all the patience I had with trying to provide you support, and through continual harassment managed to dissuade me from paying for your order out of my own pocket. When I started this battle with the insurance company in question over covering your parcel, I went into it with the intent of covering AT LEAST half of your order out of sheer kindness, and was considering whether I could afford to cover 100% of the cost when you started to continually harass me. When it didn't stop for weeks, and then months, I became very quickly opposed to covering your shipment from my own pocket.

You call it harassment, I call it trying to get some information. I don't recall ever receiving info from you unsolicited, I had to chase it.

Quote
- The insurance company obviously has something in their T&Cs which states that if the value of an item changes by a certain percent or value, then they won't cover it. Coinabul should reasonably have known about this.

Having insurance coverage on bullion shipments, let alone worldwide coverage, while being able to provide shipping service at a reasonable cost to customers is a nearly impossible challenge. Carrier level insurance doesn't even cover bullion, and if it appears to do so the likelihood of them making good on any submitted claim is slim to none. To this end, successfully structuring international insurance on bullion parcels is a difficult thing to achieve, and we take every possible step to remain in compliance with our insurers' terms such that each parcel is covered to the best of our ability, but ultimately the discretion of whether to pay an insurance claim lies with the underwriter. Considering that almost no insurance companies are willing to cover bullion transit, the very few who do are wary of fraudulent claims. The insurance industry is wrought with fraudulent insurance claims, and many millions if not billions of dollars per year are lost by underwriters to fraudulent claims. While we generally have great success with insuring our parcels(you are our only rejected claim, in fact, throughout the entire history of insuring thousands of individual parcels at Coinabul) the insurance company must make the final determination as to the validity of each customer's claim and appraise the legitimacy.

- Silver is a volatile market. Coinabul should have reasonably expected the price of silver to fluctuate between taking out the insurance and a possible claim.

In terms of actual value, I will give you a real-time example. On a shipment in our disbursement queue, there is an actual $143 silver cost, and we've insured for $228, for a massive 60% buffer zone above silver spot price in order to ensure that spot price fluctuations in transit do not prove to be an issue. This costs us substantially more per month in insurance fees than we would otherwise incurr simply to ensure that spot price volatility proves to be no issue.

Yeah, now that you have restructured your insurance arrangements. Apparently in my case,
Quote
the shipment exceeded your per parcel limit for USPS First Class International packages.

So how much of a buffer did MY shipment have? I can easily demonstrate that spot price didn't inflate by 60% over the timeframe in question.

Quote
- The insurance policy is between Coinabul and the insurer. It has nothing to do with me.

The insurance policy has everything to do with you: you are the one who stands to benefit from a fraudulent claim, nobody else. We did our part and sent your product to you, and insured it under our policy within the limits set forth by the insurance company. If the insurance company refuses to cover the parcel, there's nothing we can do about it except harass them, which we did.

A thinly veiled suggestion that I am claiming fraudulently? Stay classy.

Quote
It's quite clear how you yourself contributed to the lack of coverage in this situation. When the insurance company refused to cover your shipment, and I offered to do so, you didn't show so much as a grain of appreciation...instead, you wrote a script to harass me on IRC. After seeing you post about us being non-communicative with you on bitcointalk even after responding to your ostensibly scripted semi-communication, there was no way I was willing to cover your shipment out of my own pocket.


Dude, scripting? As stated before, I simply tried to get hold of you when I could. I have never written a script for IRC in my life. Every entry that you have from me in your chat log came from my fingers on the keyboard.

Excuse me for saving my appreciation for when your offer to replace it became reality. It didn't happen. From your vague 'quite possibly' and 'probably' etc, I never expected it to.

Quote
We send out millions of dollars worth of products, and expecting us to be responsible for out-of-pocket coverage in the case of an insurance company's refusal to do so is simply unreasonable.

Apparently you're the only one who thinks so.

Quote
Let's do some math, shall we?
So, assume 17oz of silver costs you $500. You send us Bitcoins, and by the time we're finished processing your shipment we've made $0.50-$0.75/oz. So, sum total $8.50-$12.75 give or take. For us to earn the cost of covering your order out of pocket, we must process the same order 59 times on the high end, 40 times on the low end. You can see very quickly that this makes it impossible to simply absorb the cost of sending a replacement product, especially if you consider that the products we are sending are liquid. We aren't sending a DVD player that depreciates when you sell it to your friend after it's in your hands, we are sending a highly valuable commodity which makes it quite easy for people to defraud our insured shipping process. To call for a scammer tag as we continually deliver Ferrari's worth of bullion to customers each month is simply ludicrous.

The size of your margins are none of my concern. And again with the suggestion that I'm committing fraud. If the law isn't on your side, bang on the facts. If the facts aren't on your side, bang on the table.

Quote
Although I've been quite clear with you in the past and I'm not quite sure as to the goal of your continued fabrications excepting a desire to besmirch, hopefully this helps you understand the circumstances a little more clearly.

Fabrications like me calling you on the phone? Riiiight.

You say 'besmirch', I say warning people. Hell, I don't even need to add much to what Coinabul reps have admitted themselves. I paid, I didn't receive. Coinabul underinsured, I'm out of pocket.

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March 06, 2013, 10:04:34 AM
 #32

What was going on in shiftybugger's mind when he said ping a few dozen times?

Look at the timestamps. They are all hours or days apart.

I live on the other side of the planet to them. I would simply log into IRC and ping him to see if he was on. I wasn't trying to harass the guy - communication was just terribly difficult to accomplish on IRC. I would have much preferred email.
I agree, time zones suck but I think a "message me when you're available" or "hey, I want to talk about the package, I'm in AEST and is available X to Y" would be better. Coinabul has a support email, no?

Either way, it doesn't change that it's a lot more of Coinabul's fault than the buyer's fault, and covering the loss would be expected.

They do have a support email, but I wasn't getting replies from it. They say that their emails oft get eaten by spam filters, and that may be the case here - although they weren't going to my spam folder either. Either way, email was not proving effective.
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March 06, 2013, 10:12:05 AM
 #33

shiftybugger, it doesnt seem like coinabul is going to fold without legal action. Im also convinced the law is on your side. There was a US based lawyer offering his services on this forum not so long ago, I suggest you get in touch with him. It may not have to come to court, just a letter from a lawyer might be enough for coinabul to talk to their legal counsel and realize they will have to reimburse you one way or the other.

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March 06, 2013, 10:13:53 AM
 #34

whats the dollar value got to do with anything ?
It's just an arbitrary choice as a reasonably-stable measure of value. You could use any stable currency.

I am an employee of Ripple Labs, the company behind the Ripple payment network.
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March 06, 2013, 10:18:04 AM
 #35

whats the dollar value got to do with anything ?
It's just an arbitrary choice as a reasonably-stable measure of value. You could use any stable currency.


No you couldnt. Legally coinabul can only be forced to settle in dollars (as they are US based), thats why its fiat money.

IANAL but Coinabul probably has the choice to either deliver the quantity of silver ordered at the time, or reimburse the original order value in dollars. But I dont see how they could be held liable for fluctuations in either silver or BTC prices.

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March 06, 2013, 10:22:12 AM
 #36

Shiftybugger, thank you for starting this thread.  I was considering using Coinabul, but the complete lack of accountability shown in Coinabul's response made me think twice.  They are not going to refund your order because you bugged them after months of not receiving anything?  Completely inappropriate response.  I'd like to get Casascius to weigh in on this, he also a lot of experience sending insured orders paid for by bitcoin and I'm sure he would refund the order in a case like this. 
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March 06, 2013, 10:22:59 AM
 #37

whats the dollar value got to do with anything ?
It's just an arbitrary choice as a reasonably-stable measure of value. You could use any stable currency.


No you couldnt. Legally coinabul can only be forced to settle in dollars (as they are US based), thats why its fiat money.

IANAL but Coinabul probably has the choice to either deliver the quantity of silver ordered at the time, or reimburse the original order value in dollars. But I dont see how they could be held liable for fluctuations in either silver or BTC prices.

I agree. As cool as it would be, I wouldn't expect them to reimburse me the BTC value. BTC has increased five-fold vs USD since my order. I would only expect replacement or dollar value.
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March 06, 2013, 10:23:55 AM
 #38

whats the dollar value got to do with anything ?
It's just an arbitrary choice as a reasonably-stable measure of value. You could use any stable currency.


No you couldnt. Legally coinabul can only be forced to settle in dollars (as they are US based), thats why its fiat money.
I don't think he was trying to make a legal point or explain how much Coinabul could be forced to pay. I think he was making an equitable point. (The law roughly follows the equitable argument anyway, as it fixes dollar amounts but allows interest rates pegged to inflation, which accomplishes roughly the result of producing a currency-neutral measure.)

I am an employee of Ripple Labs, the company behind the Ripple payment network.
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March 06, 2013, 10:45:27 AM
 #39

There's really two ways you can solve this now - getting a lawyer or hoping the Coinabul gets a scammer tag from theymos. It doesn't look like Coinabul is willing to fold otherwise.

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March 06, 2013, 12:14:44 PM
 #40

Jay, have you any idea how lame your excuses sound?  You should have paid him straight away, and had your own fight with the insurance company in your own time.

This is quite pathetic, and even more so that you don't seem to realise it.

And you're complaining that he wanted you to do what you promised?  And waited months for no result?

Kris,

   
"I have been given no proof that anything was sent."

We gave you your tracking number countless times: here it is again at LJ664423272US. You've stated on multiple occasions that we provided no tracking information to you, and this is quite simply an outright lie. Every order, even uninsured parcels, carry tracking information which is always entered into our systems and transmitted to each customer instantly as your order is shipped.

"They strung me along for seven months, with half promises of paying out of their own pockets to cover it but never committing to anything."

We were very communicative with you on a non-stop basis, but despite this you proceeded to send me far too many messages which were all responded to graciously, and at horrendous times of day for us(such as 4:30AM Sunday) in the USA, in an effort to provide you the best customer service we could:
[Sunday, October 28, 2012] [04:22:40 AM] <coingenuity>   anyway, i'm still wrangling with my insurance company, they're giving me a hassle about covering your parcel because the value changed over their arbitrary limit between when it was sent and when it didn't show up
[Sunday, October 28, 2012] [04:23:22 AM] <coingenuity>   in essence, they're saying that because it changed in value by X% they won't cover it, even for the original value... so i'm harassing them on the phone to see if i can do anything about it

An excerpt from the insurance company in question:
"In looking at my notes, we spoke over the phone about this on 10/25/2012. At that time, I explained that the shipment exceeded your per parcel limit for USPS First Class International packages."


The date correlations between this excerpt and the next should be noted. I was still willing to cover a good portion portion out of pocket at that point, despite nonstop messages on IRC:
[Thursday, November 01, 2012] [10:51:26 PM] <shiftybugger>   hey, any updates?
[Saturday, November 03, 2012] [07:02:50 PM] <shiftybugger>   ping
[Sunday, November 04, 2012] [09:15:15 PM] <shiftybugger>   ping
[Monday, November 05, 2012] [02:49:34 AM] <shiftybugger>   ping
[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:38:57 PM] <shiftybugger>   ping



Excerpt:
[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:41:26 PM] <coingenuity>   but in the mean time I'm still hassling with the insurance company, who's adamant about not covering this parcel
[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:46:50 PM] <shiftybugger>   are they final on that or is it still ongoing?
[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:49:35 PM] <coingenuity>   they seem pretty final, but I'm still hassling them to see what can be done
[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:55:08 PM] <shiftybugger>   Ok. I'd appreciate if you could let me know how this looks like ending as soon as you know. I'm getting out of mining once block reward halves and was going to go with bullion to cash out as it's less hassle than Mt Gox. Need to decide if it's viable.
[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:56:27 PM] <coingenuity>   absolutely, and if I can't get them to properly cover the parcel I'll quite possibly end up covering a portion of the loss out of pocket in replacements


Through all of this, I was happy to communicate with you, but it quickly became obvious you were attempting to bully us into replacing the cost of your items out-of-pocket with the attitude that it was an obligation, as opposed to a kindness.

While I explained to you that I'd likely do so, you send me continual messages on IRC to the point that it appeared scripted. I'd sit down at my computer, move my mouse, and instantly see another message from you. This was generally multiple times per day, for months, in addition to phone calls and emails at a similar frequency.


A small excerpt from my log follows:
[Sunday, December 16, 2012] [12:36:02 AM] <shiftybugger>   ping
[Sunday, December 16, 2012] [02:02:10 PM] <shiftybugger>   ping
[Sunday, December 16, 2012] [10:19:15 PM] <shiftybugger>   ping
[Tuesday, December 18, 2012] [01:35:47 AM] <shiftybugger>   ping
[Tuesday, December 18, 2012] [06:43:16 PM] <shiftybugger>   ping
[Thursday, December 20, 2012] [03:24:48 AM] <shiftybugger>   ping
[Thursday, December 20, 2012] [07:15:32 PM] <shiftybugger>   ping




Eventually, you managed to use up all the patience I had with trying to provide you support, and through continual harassment managed to dissuade me from paying for your order out of my own pocket. When I started this battle with the insurance company in question over covering your parcel, I went into it with the intent of covering AT LEAST half of your order out of sheer kindness, and was considering whether I could afford to cover 100% of the cost when you started to continually harass me. When it didn't stop for weeks, and then months, I became very quickly opposed to covering your shipment from my own pocket.



- The insurance company obviously has something in their T&Cs which states that if the value of an item changes by a certain percent or value, then they won't cover it. Coinabul should reasonably have known about this.

Having insurance coverage on bullion shipments, let alone worldwide coverage, while being able to provide shipping service at a reasonable cost to customers is a nearly impossible challenge. Carrier level insurance doesn't even cover bullion, and if it appears to do so the likelihood of them making good on any submitted claim is slim to none. To this end, successfully structuring international insurance on bullion parcels is a difficult thing to achieve, and we take every possible step to remain in compliance with our insurers' terms such that each parcel is covered to the best of our ability, but ultimately the discretion of whether to pay an insurance claim lies with the underwriter. Considering that almost no insurance companies are willing to cover bullion transit, the very few who do are wary of fraudulent claims. The insurance industry is wrought with fraudulent insurance claims, and many millions if not billions of dollars per year are lost by underwriters to fraudulent claims. While we generally have great success with insuring our parcels(you are our only rejected claim, in fact, throughout the entire history of insuring thousands of individual parcels at Coinabul) the insurance company must make the final determination as to the validity of each customer's claim and appraise the legitimacy.

- Silver is a volatile market. Coinabul should have reasonably expected the price of silver to fluctuate between taking out the insurance and a possible claim.

In terms of actual value, I will give you a real-time example. On a shipment in our disbursement queue, there is an actual $143 silver cost, and we've insured for $228, for a massive 60% buffer zone above silver spot price in order to ensure that spot price fluctuations in transit do not prove to be an issue. This costs us substantially more per month in insurance fees than we would otherwise incurr simply to ensure that spot price volatility proves to be no issue.

- The insurance policy is between Coinabul and the insurer. It has nothing to do with me.

The insurance policy has everything to do with you: you are the one who stands to benefit from a fraudulent claim, nobody else. We did our part and sent your product to you, and insured it under our policy within the limits set forth by the insurance company. If the insurance company refuses to cover the parcel, there's nothing we can do about it except harass them, which we did.


It's quite clear how you yourself contributed to the lack of coverage in this situation. When the insurance company refused to cover your shipment, and I offered to do so, you didn't show so much as a grain of appreciation...instead, you wrote a script to harass me on IRC. After seeing you post about us being non-communicative with you on bitcointalk even after responding to your ostensibly scripted semi-communication, there was no way I was willing to cover your shipment out of my own pocket. We send out millions of dollars worth of products, and expecting us to be responsible for out-of-pocket coverage in the case of an insurance company's refusal to do so is simply unreasonable.

Let's do some math, shall we?
So, assume 17oz of silver costs you $500. You send us Bitcoins, and by the time we're finished processing your shipment we've made $0.50-$0.75/oz. So, sum total $8.50-$12.75 give or take. For us to earn the cost of covering your order out of pocket, we must process the same order 59 times on the high end, 40 times on the low end. You can see very quickly that this makes it impossible to simply absorb the cost of sending a replacement product, especially if you consider that the products we are sending are liquid. We aren't sending a DVD player that depreciates when you sell it to your friend after it's in your hands, we are sending a highly valuable commodity which makes it quite easy for people to defraud our insured shipping process. To call for a scammer tag as we continually deliver Ferrari's worth of bullion to customers each month is simply ludicrous.

Although I've been quite clear with you in the past and I'm not quite sure as to the goal of your continued fabrications excepting a desire to besmirch, hopefully this helps you understand the circumstances a little more clearly.

-Jay

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March 06, 2013, 12:17:25 PM
 #41

So I was right afterwards, the silver was shipped with USPS Priority International, not with Registered Mail. USPS will refuse claims on coins if it wasn't sent with registered mail.

LJ664423272US - is the Priority vs RAxxxx for Registered Mail.

Registered Mail CAN be tracked, because there is a chain of custody (though only delivery information will be available online).
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March 06, 2013, 12:33:56 PM
 #42

Could anyone even remotely imagine Casascius behaving like this?

I've considered a couple of times starting a BTC-for-bullion sales company, but didn't because there was already a player (Coinabul) in the arena. Now... hmm.

I've already got the domain: btcsilver.com (and btcsilver.co, btcslv.com, btcslv.co)

And the logo:



81BTC back in July? What's that: $400-$500 USD worth of product?

If I do decide to start this company now, I'll cover that myself, just as a howdy-do y'all  Smiley

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March 06, 2013, 12:36:15 PM
 #43

It seems to me also that the seller needs to reimburse the silver bought. I work as a silver dealer myself and sometimes customers can be a$$es over petty cash, but there is nothing I can do about it. Nothing so far gives the impression that the customer is to blame.

When I was still learning this trade, I once bought 80 tr.oz. of gold from the US to Finland. It is still unclear what happened, but likely a dishonest employee of the seller stole the gold on the way to the post office. As we had a lot of traffic those days, it took 2 months to figure out that a certain number of coins was missing.

It would have been next to impossible for me to sue, but the seller did what he should. He reimbursed all, and his words still echo in my head: "I am sickened by this loss. We worked so hard to get the money. But life goes on."




So I was right afterwards, the silver was shipped with USPS Priority International, not with Registered Mail. USPS will refuse claims on coins if it wasn't sent with registered mail.

LJ664423272US - is the Priority vs RAxxxx for Registered Mail.

Registered Mail CAN be tracked, because there is a chain of custody (though only delivery information will be available online).

Shipper fail... not the buyers fault.

They should have a disclaimer on their site saying "Insured shipping does not imply shipping is insured. Delivery not guaranteed." That will keep them from having to deal with this in the future.

But all kidding aside because it is clear coinabul can not come up with the funds I will send the OP the silver if coinabul sells me the website, domain name, any copyrights and what not. More or less sell the business.

This would give coinabul a way to make things right and keep a service in the BTC world untarnished. I have a significant amount of gold and silver in stock and could start again pretty quickly.

Let me know.





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March 06, 2013, 12:53:34 PM
 #44

Same. Looks like there is room for more, this is the end of coinabul, he just does not know it yet. Even if he pays up now the damage is done.

Come on boys. Let's give him a realistic time of (up to) 2 weeks to reply before you declare him bankrupt. This thing has been going on for so long already and no one's life is in danger. Sometimes people are busy, and it seems they are arrogant when replying in haste. But 2 weeks is enough to compose an orderly settlement proposal. I'm sure Coinabul is not willing to lose the majority of his multimilliondollar business over 20 oz of silver! Smiley

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March 06, 2013, 05:47:15 PM
 #45

If this doesnt get resolved fast, I offer my signature space for a coinabul warning with link to this thread. If enough people posting in this thread do the same, it might even help.

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March 06, 2013, 06:17:10 PM
 #46

I've never dealt with Coinabul and after reading this I never will! It's not exactly a huge amount we're talking about and I can't believe that this has been going on for months!

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March 06, 2013, 06:39:45 PM
 #47

used coinabul before and had no problems other than the shipping delay.. was looking forward to using them again in the future if they improved their shipping times but now this.. will be watching to see if it gets worked out.

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March 06, 2013, 06:44:54 PM
 #48

used coinabul before and had no problems other than the shipping delay.. was looking forward to using them again in the future if they improved their shipping times but now this.. will be watching to see if it gets worked out.

An issue like this should be sorted out in a day or two, not in 7+ months and running... there's only one conclusion: Coinabul stinks.

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March 06, 2013, 07:35:15 PM
 #49

So the package got lost in Customs? Maybe it was just hold by them until the cost of storage didn't reach the cost of package or something of the kind?

What if seller sends goods to buyer... Customs hold the goods because they want to get tax from recipient... but they can't contact recipient for some reason (or recipient ignores their notices because he doesn't want to pay anything)...

Then should the seller cover the expenses, or insurance company? Can they be liable for that?

Just a hypothetical situation, out of curiosity.

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March 06, 2013, 09:56:47 PM
 #50

Why would anyone ship something valuable like hundreds of dollars of silver coins through the Post Office?  And the insurer is a real fail, but Coinabul shouldn't throw away their reputation just because someone else screwed them out of a modest sum.
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March 07, 2013, 12:09:10 AM
 #51

MY STORY: I paid Coinabul 81.8251 btc for an order of silver on July 30, 2012. I paid extra for insured shipping. I didn't receive anything. I have been given no proof that anything was sent. They strung me along for seven months, with half promises of paying out of their own pockets to cover it but never committing to anything. They only gave a final answer when I started a thread here on bitcointalk. Their answer: Sorry, we can't help you.

THEIR STORY: They claim that they sent my order on August 22. They claim that they filed a claim with their insurance company for a lost shipment but the claim was rejected because the value of the order had changed past some arbitrary threshold such that the policy no longer covers it. Coinabul refuse to replace the order or the bitcoins.

WHY THE SCAMMER TAG:
- The insurance company obviously has something in their T&Cs which states that if the value of an item changes by a certain percent or value, then they won't cover it. Coinabul should reasonably have known about this.
- Silver is a volatile market. Coinabul should have reasonably expected the price of silver to fluctuate between taking out the insurance and a possible claim.
- The above two points together show that Coinabul could (and should) have reasonably taken steps to ensure that their insurance arrangements were adequate to cover market fluctuations, but was negligent in failing to do so.
- I could not have reasonably known about this or taken steps to avoid this, not being a party to the insurance contract or having access to the details of the contract.
- Coinabul, not I, have been negligent in this instance and should therefore be culpable. To use an example from the thread linked below, if my auto insurance company refuses to cover me because my claim breaches the insurance contract, after I've already had repairs done, I can't just refuse to pay the shop.
- The insurance policy is between Coinabul and the insurer. It has nothing to do with me. It's not my responsibility. Why should I be out of pocket?

For the original discussion and more info, see this tread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=144611.0
It gets a bit hijacked on the first page or two, just read around it.

a couple of questions

Could they provide proof of the insurance?
Did they send you a copy of the T and C's?
Why not just claim for the original value - how would they know it increased and isn't a substantial portion better than nothing. In my experience you insure a package for a fixed amount. If the package is lost in transit then you are entitled to the insured amount appreciation or depreciation of the contents as a determining factor seems a little strange to me

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March 07, 2013, 12:13:48 AM
 #52

also

Normally unless specifically stipulated as otherwise in the sale contract:

If the seller is in the business of selling that merchandise, then the risk of loss does not pass until the merchandise is delivered to the buyer.

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March 07, 2013, 06:07:48 AM
 #53

Shiftybugger, thank you for starting this thread.  I was considering using Coinabul, but the complete lack of accountability shown in Coinabul's response made me think twice.  They are not going to refund your order because you bugged them after months of not receiving anything?  Completely inappropriate response.  I'd like to get Casascius to weigh in on this, he also a lot of experience sending insured orders paid for by bitcoin and I'm sure he would refund the order in a case like this. 
+1

I ordered a gold coin from coinabul. I waited about 7 days, sent them an email asking when I'll get it, will take "7-10 business days". Okay. Later, haven't got anything, sent them another email, not shipped, "You will get a tracking number in your email within the next 2-3 business days.". Still no tracking number. Sent them another email, "should be no more than 1-2 business days at the most." - after nearly two weeks, not shipped.

Messaged coinabul here and finally it got shipped. Go figure. Tongue

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March 07, 2013, 06:49:44 AM
 #54

Shiftybugger, thank you for starting this thread.  I was considering using Coinabul, but the complete lack of accountability shown in Coinabul's response made me think twice.  They are not going to refund your order because you bugged them after months of not receiving anything?  Completely inappropriate response.  I'd like to get Casascius to weigh in on this, he also a lot of experience sending insured orders paid for by bitcoin and I'm sure he would refund the order in a case like this. 
+1

I ordered a gold coin from coinabul. I waited about 7 days, sent them an email asking when I'll get it, will take "7-10 business days". Okay. Later, haven't got anything, sent them another email, not shipped, "You will get a tracking number in your email within the next 2-3 business days.". Still no tracking number. Sent them another email, "should be no more than 1-2 business days at the most." - after nearly two weeks, not shipped.

Messaged coinabul here and finally it got shipped. Go figure. Tongue

I have ordered several coins from Coinabul in the past. I do not understand how they acquire and ship their product, but I kind of assumed they acquired it after payment as the handling time to ship was sometimes weeks or more and required a few emails in order to get the ball rolling. To be fair I did get everything, but I was concerned about the inconsistency in communication and shipping. I don't know Jay at all but I am sure he is monitoring this thread. I would suggest that the negative press he is getting here will do irreparable damage to any future business he may wish to engage in. Risk of loss was undoubtedly with Coinabul in this matter. I will be watching this very closely

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March 07, 2013, 09:24:19 AM
 #55

also

Normally unless specifically stipulated as otherwise in the sale contract:

If the seller is in the business of selling that merchandise, then the risk of loss does not pass until the merchandise is delivered to the buyer.

Thanks for this info. This is how it works under Australian consumer protection laws, but I had no idea about US laws.
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March 07, 2013, 06:16:44 PM
 #56

I am also glad I read this post as I was considering using Coinabul in the future but now will not.
It is the sellers responsibility to ensure the package arrives for the customer, not the buyers. If the package does not arrive then it again is the sellers liability.
Unless the buyer paid for and instructed which insurance company to use then this is your liability and you should refund or replace.
If a refund was due I also agree that a USD tied refund should be given since the BTC price has gone up significantly since then.
I myself have had instances where packages have not arrived and have always refunded the customers first, for one this would have stopped this bad publicity which has probably cost your company in lost revenue as well even in some cases where I did not receive any compensation myself.

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March 07, 2013, 10:47:15 PM
 #57

Some customer service. So glad I read this thread, I will not be using or recommending coinabul after reading that rubbish excuse for customer service.
Its the little little things that count when you deal with the public. Maybe petty to him ($500 at the time).. But he will lose a considerable amount of this im sure.

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March 08, 2013, 01:18:52 AM
 #58

Seems to be an opportunity for competitions.
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March 08, 2013, 01:39:02 AM
 #59

So, Jon, will this also happen when a BitcoinStore.com parcel gets lost and insurance doesn't pay?

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March 08, 2013, 02:09:49 AM
 #60

Seems to be an opportunity for competitions.


Maybe ill start selling gold and silver. hmmmm

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March 08, 2013, 02:25:58 AM
 #61

Shiftybugger, thank you for starting this thread.  I was considering using Coinabul, but the complete lack of accountability shown in Coinabul's response made me think twice.  They are not going to refund your order because you bugged them after months of not receiving anything?  Completely inappropriate response.  I'd like to get Casascius to weigh in on this, he also a lot of experience sending insured orders paid for by bitcoin and I'm sure he would refund the order in a case like this.  

Here would be my take:

1. I take the position that I only guarantee I'll send what was ordered.  I do not guarantee anyone will receive what they ordered unless they pay for insurance, which in my case is only available with registered mail.  There's not really another sustainable position to take without opening myself up to scams.

2. It is so incredibly rare for things to disappear in the mail that paying for insurance, in terms of expected value, is virtually always a waste of money.  Odds of losing a package are easily more favorable than 500:1.  It only makes sense for the most valuable of shipments.

3. One good way I've found to mitigate risk, especially with silver coins, is to split orders up into multiple envelopes and mail them on separate days.  This also helps things make it through customs with the privilege of not getting flagged for special treatment.  And that's how it seems is the best way to mail silver coins: in a boring envelope (mine are 15cm x 15cm, meant for mailing CDs/DVDs).

4. I probably wouldn't suggest to a customer whose package went missing that I was dealing with an insurance company or that my reaction depended on whether I was able to collect from insurance.  As far as I'm concerned, if the customer didn't pay for insurance, then any insurance I might have is to benefit me, not them.  Instead, I'd tell them to keep waiting, as it might eventually show up, or that I would let them know if I saw the package returned (which, oddly, has happened a couple times, many months after the original mailing, with the package notated "unclaimed").

5. I may, in my sole discretion, offer favors to keep people happy.  The simplest favor I can offer to someone I'm forced to say they're outta luck is offering them a replacement order "at cost" without any markup, and throwing in freebies that might be valuable to them but are low cost for me.  Then again, I have more flexibility in that respect than a bullion dealer, because I can pad my products with a healthy markup and a bullion dealer cannot while still remaining competitive.  If I were a bullion dealer, I'm not sure what I would do, cause it's not like I could just throw in some free PM's to anyone claiming a loss and keep my business sustainable.  ANd if someone came to the forums and alleged that I was a "scammer" as in this thread (as opposed to simply posting that they're disappointed they took a loss) I'd be the least motivated to offer a favor, just sayin.

6. If I were being accused of scamming by international customers (where registered mail is less efficient), to protect my reputation I'd probably switch my business to domestic only and/or require registered mail for everything, and only accept bulk orders from international resellers that I already trusted.  That would be sad, but unavoidable if I did things that made it effective for scammers to scam me.  Suffice it to say, I'd rather tell a few unlucky people that they're out of luck, because the odds are still overwhelming that most everyone will get what they ordered.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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March 08, 2013, 02:31:38 AM
 #62

Quote
4. I probably wouldn't suggest to a customer whose package went missing that I was dealing with an insurance company or that my reaction depended on whether I was able to collect from insurance.  As far as I'm concerned, if the customer didn't pay for insurance, then any insurance I might have is to benefit me, not them.  Instead, I'd tell them to keep waiting, as it might eventually show up, or that I would let them know if I saw the package returned (which, oddly, has happened a couple times, many months after the original mailing, with the package notated "unclaimed").
This I don't understand. If the insurance is to benefit you, that must mean that you are liable if the package is lost. But you're saying you're not. These two positions are inconsistent. Unless you are saying that if the customer didn't pay for insurance but you paid for insurance, and the package is lost and the insurance company pays up, you might just keep the insurance money and tell the customer they're out of luck? I sure hope that's not what you're saying.

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March 08, 2013, 02:50:18 AM
 #63

I'm having trouble comprehending the insurance aspect. If send via USPS, which has proven that it was via Priority Mail, then the only insurance that could have been use was the one provided by the USPS. I can't phantom the use of some other insurance used, even if another entity existed.

Please set me straight on the above if I'm in error.

Last year, I had an accounts payable dispute with one of my regular clients in the sum of exactly $500. Sometimes, I supplied him wood between him getting paid from his clients (30 days, normally). In this case, I supplied him three loads of wood whereupon he owed me $9,500. None of this was written down, for it was straightforward, consisting of round numbers. Two days prior to him paying me, he called to let me know he had gotten paid, but needed the funds to settle in his bank first. At that point, we confirmed the amount owed. Two days later I went to pick up the check, and it was $500 short. We each redid the math five times, him opting to use the Ma and Pa Kettle math. I quickly gave in, for I didn't want to loose him as a customer. The guy is very straight up and has never lied to me before. I made great profit off sales to him in the past, and continue to do so to this day, as well as continue to do so in the future.

I have never shared the above with anybody until now.

Another incident last year consisted of a woman who needed only 200 s/f of flooring, but order 300 s/f to make sure she had enough. I delivered slightly over 300 s/f which equals the volume of half of a full size pick up truck bed. She calls me about a week later and states that she was short over 50 s/f, which was impossible. I even had pics of the load, as I did of the loads I mentioned in the previous paragraph. But I was not going to call her a liar and show her proof. I quickly delivered a little more than 50 more s/f of the same lumber to her garage, never seeing her 12 X 15 dining room.

I never expected to her from her again, but got luck and she ordered barn wood for two walls she was doing in her basement.

~Bruno K~

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March 08, 2013, 02:55:46 AM
 #64

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4. I probably wouldn't suggest to a customer whose package went missing that I was dealing with an insurance company or that my reaction depended on whether I was able to collect from insurance.  As far as I'm concerned, if the customer didn't pay for insurance, then any insurance I might have is to benefit me, not them.  Instead, I'd tell them to keep waiting, as it might eventually show up, or that I would let them know if I saw the package returned (which, oddly, has happened a couple times, many months after the original mailing, with the package notated "unclaimed").
This I don't understand. If the insurance is to benefit you, that must mean that you are liable if the package is lost. But you're saying you're not. These two positions are inconsistent. Unless you are saying that if the customer didn't pay for insurance but you paid for insurance, and the package is lost and the insurance company pays up, you might just keep the insurance money and tell the customer they're out of luck? I sure hope that's not what you're saying.

+1. I have exactly the same question.
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March 08, 2013, 03:00:40 AM
 #65

If you are a seller, selling goods to consumer then the risk of loss remains with the seller unless specifically stated otherwise in the sales contract.

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March 08, 2013, 03:11:51 AM
 #66

Quote
4. I probably wouldn't suggest to a customer whose package went missing that I was dealing with an insurance company or that my reaction depended on whether I was able to collect from insurance.  As far as I'm concerned, if the customer didn't pay for insurance, then any insurance I might have is to benefit me, not them.  Instead, I'd tell them to keep waiting, as it might eventually show up, or that I would let them know if I saw the package returned (which, oddly, has happened a couple times, many months after the original mailing, with the package notated "unclaimed").
This I don't understand. If the insurance is to benefit you, that must mean that you are liable if the package is lost. But you're saying you're not. These two positions are inconsistent. Unless you are saying that if the customer didn't pay for insurance but you paid for insurance, and the package is lost and the insurance company pays up, you might just keep the insurance money and tell the customer they're out of luck? I sure hope that's not what you're saying.


I don't pay for insurance to bet against my customers getting their shipments, so it's moot (if I were dealing bullion it might be different and sensibly so).  The point I am trying to make is that there are two prices you can pay, and you can pay the lower price and take a small risk and get a good value, especially if the order is small and not worth registering.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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March 08, 2013, 03:35:21 AM
 #67

I can't phantom the use of some other insurance used, even if another entity existed.

There are other insurance companies.... A quick google search:

http://www.shipsurance.com/

http://www.u-pic.com/
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March 08, 2013, 03:36:31 AM
 #68

6. If I were being accused of scamming by international customers (where registered mail is less efficient), to protect my reputation I'd probably switch my business to domestic only and/or require registered mail for everything, and only accept bulk orders from international resellers that I already trusted.  That would be sad, but unavoidable if I did things that made it effective for scammers to scam me.  Suffice it to say, I'd rather tell a few unlucky people that they're out of luck, because the odds are still overwhelming that most everyone will get what they ordered.

Are you shipping your international packages with registered mail? I think for US you sent me with Priority, I don't recall.
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March 08, 2013, 03:38:55 AM
 #69

also

Normally unless specifically stipulated as otherwise in the sale contract:

If the seller is in the business of selling that merchandise, then the risk of loss does not pass until the merchandise is delivered to the buyer.

Thanks for this info. This is how it works under Australian consumer protection laws, but I had no idea about US laws.

Actually this isn't correct. In the USA, normally, if a buyer didn't buy insurance the seller isn't responsible for lost packages. Personally I never offer insurance on my packages, but at my discretion I buy it sometimes (like shipping a laptop).

Big companies are usually self-insured, so they can send an another package out. Smaller companies can't really do especially with expensive products like silver.
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March 08, 2013, 03:55:27 AM
 #70

also

Normally unless specifically stipulated as otherwise in the sale contract:

If the seller is in the business of selling that merchandise, then the risk of loss does not pass until the merchandise is delivered to the buyer.

Thanks for this info. This is how it works under Australian consumer protection laws, but I had no idea about US laws.

Actually this isn't correct. In the USA, normally, if a buyer didn't buy insurance the seller isn't responsible for lost packages. Personally I never offer insurance on my packages, but at my discretion I buy it sometimes (like shipping a laptop).

Big companies are usually self-insured, so they can send an another package out. Smaller companies can't really do especially with expensive products like silver.


Sorry that is incorrect I am on my iphone but the controlling law in a sale of goods is the ucc. Here is the pertinent extract. If you don't want to read the whole thing skip to the end

Risk of loss is a term used in the law of contracts to determine which party should bear the burden of risk for damage occurring to goods after the sale has been completed, but before delivery has occurred. Such considerations generally come into play after the contract is formed but before buyer receives goods, something bad happens.

Under the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC), there are four risk of loss rules, in order of application:

Agreement - the agreement of the parties controls
Breach - the breaching party is liable for any uninsured loss even though breach is unrelated to the problem. Hence, if the breach is the time of delivery, and the goods show up broken, then the breaching rule applies risk of loss on the seller.
Delivery by common carrier other than by seller.
Risk of loss shifts from seller to buyer at the time that seller completes its delivery obligations
If it is a destination contract (FOB (buyer's city)), then risk of loss is on the seller.
If it is a delivery contract (standard, or FOB (seller's city)), then the risk of loss is on the buyer.
If the seller is a merchant, then the risk of loss shifts to the buyer upon buyer's "receipt" of the goods. If the buyer never takes possession, then the seller still has the risk of loss. [1]

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March 08, 2013, 04:14:25 AM
 #71

also

Normally unless specifically stipulated as otherwise in the sale contract:

If the seller is in the business of selling that merchandise, then the risk of loss does not pass until the merchandise is delivered to the buyer.

Thanks for this info. This is how it works under Australian consumer protection laws, but I had no idea about US laws.

Actually this isn't correct. In the USA, normally, if a buyer didn't buy insurance the seller isn't responsible for lost packages. Personally I never offer insurance on my packages, but at my discretion I buy it sometimes (like shipping a laptop).

Big companies are usually self-insured, so they can send an another package out. Smaller companies can't really do especially with expensive products like silver.


Sorry that is incorrect I am on my iphone but the controlling law in a sale of goods is the ucc. Here is the pertinent extract. If you don't want to read the whole thing skip to the end

Risk of loss is a term used in the law of contracts to determine which party should bear the burden of risk for damage occurring to goods after the sale has been completed, but before delivery has occurred. Such considerations generally come into play after the contract is formed but before buyer receives goods, something bad happens.

Under the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC), there are four risk of loss rules, in order of application:

Agreement - the agreement of the parties controls
Breach - the breaching party is liable for any uninsured loss even though breach is unrelated to the problem. Hence, if the breach is the time of delivery, and the goods show up broken, then the breaching rule applies risk of loss on the seller.
Delivery by common carrier other than by seller.
Risk of loss shifts from seller to buyer at the time that seller completes its delivery obligations
If it is a destination contract (FOB (buyer's city)), then risk of loss is on the seller.
If it is a delivery contract (standard, or FOB (seller's city)), then the risk of loss is on the buyer.
If the seller is a merchant, then the risk of loss shifts to the buyer upon buyer's "receipt" of the goods. If the buyer never takes possession, then the seller still has the risk of loss. [1]

The last one wouln't be applicable in this case, since this is applicable:

Risk of loss shifts from seller to buyer at the time that seller completes its delivery obligations
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March 08, 2013, 04:17:57 AM
 #72

6. If I were being accused of scamming by international customers (where registered mail is less efficient), to protect my reputation I'd probably switch my business to domestic only and/or require registered mail for everything, and only accept bulk orders from international resellers that I already trusted.  That would be sad, but unavoidable if I did things that made it effective for scammers to scam me.  Suffice it to say, I'd rather tell a few unlucky people that they're out of luck, because the odds are still overwhelming that most everyone will get what they ordered.

Are you shipping your international packages with registered mail? I think for US you sent me with Priority, I don't recall.

I typically send regular mail (aka "First Class Mail").  And it arrives well over 99% of the time.  I will sometimes send international priority mail for heavy shipments since it's a better rate, but once it leaves the US, it is virtually identical to regular mail.

Express (EMS) is what I offer as a premium shipping option for international shipping.  It's pretty reliable, and there's tracking end-to-end in most places, though it also increases the likelihood that customs will care about your package and want to charge an import tax, if it were me I would just go for regular mail and take my chances.

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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March 08, 2013, 04:22:08 AM
 #73

also

Normally unless specifically stipulated as otherwise in the sale contract:

If the seller is in the business of selling that merchandise, then the risk of loss does not pass until the merchandise is delivered to the buyer.

Thanks for this info. This is how it works under Australian consumer protection laws, but I had no idea about US laws.

Actually this isn't correct. In the USA, normally, if a buyer didn't buy insurance the seller isn't responsible for lost packages. Personally I never offer insurance on my packages, but at my discretion I buy it sometimes (like shipping a laptop).

Big companies are usually self-insured, so they can send an another package out. Smaller companies can't really do especially with expensive products like silver.


Sorry that is incorrect I am on my iphone but the controlling law in a sale of goods is the ucc. Here is the pertinent extract. If you don't want to read the whole thing skip to the end

Risk of loss is a term used in the law of contracts to determine which party should bear the burden of risk for damage occurring to goods after the sale has been completed, but before delivery has occurred. Such considerations generally come into play after the contract is formed but before buyer receives goods, something bad happens.

Under the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC), there are four risk of loss rules, in order of application:

Agreement - the agreement of the parties controls
Breach - the breaching party is liable for any uninsured loss even though breach is unrelated to the problem. Hence, if the breach is the time of delivery, and the goods show up broken, then the breaching rule applies risk of loss on the seller.
Delivery by common carrier other than by seller.
Risk of loss shifts from seller to buyer at the time that seller completes its delivery obligations
If it is a destination contract (FOB (buyer's city)), then risk of loss is on the seller.
If it is a delivery contract (standard, or FOB (seller's city)), then the risk of loss is on the buyer.
If the seller is a merchant, then the risk of loss shifts to the buyer upon buyer's "receipt" of the goods. If the buyer never takes possession, then the seller still has the risk of loss. [1]

The last one wouln't be applicable in this case, since this is applicable:

Risk of loss shifts from seller to buyer at the time that seller completes its delivery obligations

No, that last one is applicable if the seller is a merchant and will invalidate the rule you pointed out.
Isn't Coinabul a merchant?

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March 08, 2013, 04:24:48 AM
 #74

No, that last one is applicable if the seller is a merchant and will invalidate the rule you pointed out.
Isn't Coinabul a merchant?

Not it goes in the order :-) This one is clearer

http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/2-509.html

Also a good read: http://britpoptarts.wordpress.com/2013/03/04/paralegal-goods-lost-in-transit-who-is-responsible/

§ 2-509. Risk of Loss in the Absence of Breach.

(1) Where the contract requires or authorizes the seller to ship the goods by carrier

(a) if it does not require him to deliver them at a particular destination, the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are duly delivered to the carrier even though the shipment is under reservation (Section 2-505); but
(b) if it does require him to deliver them at a particular destination and the goods are there duly tendered while in the possession of the carrier, the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are there duly so tendered as to enable the buyer to take delivery.
(2) Where the goods are held by a bailee to be delivered without being moved, the risk of loss passes to the buyer

(a) on his receipt of a negotiable document of title covering the goods; or
(b) on acknowledgment by the bailee of the buyer's right to possession of the goods; or
(c) after his receipt of a non-negotiable document of title or other written direction to deliver, as provided in subsection (4)(b) of Section 2-503.
(3) In any case not within subsection (1) or (2), the risk of loss passes to the buyer on his receipt of the goods if the seller is a merchant; otherwise the risk passes to the buyer on tender of delivery.

(4) The provisions of this section are subject to contrary agreement of the parties and to the provisions of this Article on sale on approval (Section 2-327) and on effect of breach on risk of loss (Section 2-510).
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March 08, 2013, 04:25:37 AM
 #75

Quote
In John W. Jordan, II, v. Kentshire Galleries, Ltd., et al., Jordan appealed an earlier decision in favor of Kentshire Galleries. Jordan alleges that he purchased an antique from Kentshire and that it arrived damaged. This was a case where there was no clear contract drawn up and no language on any of the sales documents designating whether it was a shipping or destination contract; the latter would clearly hold Kentshire solely liable for the damaged furniture item. Initially the court had decided that Jordan and Kentshire had a shipping (shipment) contract, rather than a destination contract, and thus Kentshire was not responsible for the loss once the carrier picked up the antique furniture item. (The appellate court revised its opinion when Jordan clarified that the seller made him pay for insurance to cover the safe transport of the antique, that they recommended the art packer / carrier company that apparently caused the damage, and that the antique was not the age represented by Kentshire and also had inherent defects which made it susceptible to cracking and becoming damaged.) Had the antique been stolen or lost in transit, the court might still find for Jordan because the seller, Kentshire, required him to pay insurance to cover the shipping for the antique and urged him to select a specific art packer (which wound up damaging the antique). Jordan could be excused for reasonably believing that he would receive in good condition the item he bought from Kentshire. That the antique was also a “one of a kind” item may also have influenced the decision; Jordan could not exercise his right as a buyer to demand a replacement for a non-conforming item because there would likely be no comparable item available.

http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx?xmldoc=2001601282AD2d319_2434.xml&docbase=CSLWAR2-1986-2006

Looks like according to the law that Coinabul is responsible for the loss, because the customer bought insurance.
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March 08, 2013, 04:29:10 AM
 #76

This only pertains to the US as far as I know but under the Uniform Commercial Code or the UCC a merchant is defined as:

As a person that deals in goods of the kind or otherwise holds itself out by occupation as having knowledge or skill peculiar to the practices or goods involved in the transaction or to which the knowledge or skill may be attributed by the person's employment of an agent or broker or other intermediary that holds itself out by occupation as having the knowledge or skill.

Under UCC Article 2-509

Normally if the sale is between two Merchants and or private individuals the risk of loss passes once the merchandise is duly delivered to the carrier

The big exception is when the sale is between a merchant (as defined above) and a non merchant (consumer). In this circumstance the UCC states:

...if the seller is a merchant; otherwise the risk passes to the buyer on tender of delivery.

In other words in all US jurisdictions that have adopted the UCC (which are all the states except Louisiana) the risk of loss remains with a merchant when selling to a consumer until such time as it is tendered for delivery. The term tendered for delivery is a point of fact open to interpretation. If you mail something with tracking and it is delivered to a locked mailbox that may suffice. The burden of proof will fall to the merchant to prove that it was tendered for delivery.

The circumstance of this discussion and the appropriate outcome and rights are unknown to me due to the foreign jurisdiction involved. In the US though the law is well established on risk of loss when is involves merchants and non merchants

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March 08, 2013, 04:31:30 AM
 #77

This only pertains to the US as far as I know but under the Uniform Commercial Code or the UCC a merchant is defined as:

As a person that deals in goods of the kind or otherwise holds itself out by occupation as having knowledge or skill peculiar to the practices or goods involved in the transaction or to which the knowledge or skill may be attributed by the person's employment of an agent or broker or other intermediary that holds itself out by occupation as having the knowledge or skill.

Under UCC Article 2-509

Normally if the sale is between two Merchants and or private individuals the risk of loss passes once the merchandise is duly delivered to the carrier

The big exception is when the sale is between a merchant (as defined above) and a non merchant (consumer). In this circumstance the UCC states:

...if the seller is a merchant; otherwise the risk passes to the buyer on tender of delivery.

In other words in all US jurisdictions that have adopted the UCC (which are all the states except Louisiana) the risk of loss remains with a merchant when selling to a consumer until such time as it is tendered for delivery. The term tendered for delivery is a point of fact open to interpretation. If you mail something with tracking and it is delivered to a locked mailbox that may suffice. The burden of proof will fall to the merchant to prove that it was tendered for delivery.

The circumstance of this discussion and the appropriate outcome and rights are unknown to me due to the foreign jurisdiction involved. In the US though the law is well established on risk of loss when is involves merchants and non merchants

That section is irrelevant. One of the items above it satisfied the condition.

Here are some interpretations of the law.

http://britpoptarts.wordpress.com/2013/03/04/paralegal-goods-lost-in-transit-who-is-responsible/
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March 08, 2013, 04:49:38 AM
 #78

This only pertains to the US as far as I know but under the Uniform Commercial Code or the UCC a merchant is defined as:

As a person that deals in goods of the kind or otherwise holds itself out by occupation as having knowledge or skill peculiar to the practices or goods involved in the transaction or to which the knowledge or skill may be attributed by the person's employment of an agent or broker or other intermediary that holds itself out by occupation as having the knowledge or skill.

Under UCC Article 2-509

Normally if the sale is between two Merchants and or private individuals the risk of loss passes once the merchandise is duly delivered to the carrier

The big exception is when the sale is between a merchant (as defined above) and a non merchant (consumer). In this circumstance the UCC states:

...if the seller is a merchant; otherwise the risk passes to the buyer on tender of delivery.

In other words in all US jurisdictions that have adopted the UCC (which are all the states except Louisiana) the risk of loss remains with a merchant when selling to a consumer until such time as it is tendered for delivery. The term tendered for delivery is a point of fact open to interpretation. If you mail something with tracking and it is delivered to a locked mailbox that may suffice. The burden of proof will fall to the merchant to prove that it was tendered for delivery.

The circumstance of this discussion and the appropriate outcome and rights are unknown to me due to the foreign jurisdiction involved. In the US though the law is well established on risk of loss when is involves merchants and non merchants

That section is irrelevant. One of the items above it satisfied the condition.

Here are some interpretations of the law.

http://britpoptarts.wordpress.com/2013/03/04/paralegal-goods-lost-in-transit-who-is-responsible/


your reading of the UCC is incorrect - there are also dozens of pages of notes associated with this short passage  - even if you do not accept the merchant rule, which is a well tested rule. Clearly the contract for shipping falls under  2-509(B) as I assume that the silver was addressed to a specific location for delivery EG the home of the person that did not receive the metals.

Determination of the parties’ rights and obligations must be made when ambiguity exists in the contract between them. The resolution of that ambiguity begins with a determination of whether the contract is a "shipment" or a "destination" contract. If the contract does not require the seller to deliver the goods at a particular destination, a “shipment” contract is presumed. On the other hand, a “destination” contract is characterized by a seller’s obligation to deliver at a particular destination.

Clearly the shipment by Coinabul was a destination shipment and would therefore, if not for the merchant exception, would still place the risk of loss with Coinabul until tendered for delivery

§ 2-509. Risk of Loss in the Absence of Breach.

(1) Where the contract requires or authorizes the seller to ship the goods by carrier

(a) if it does not require him to deliver them at a particular destination, the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are duly delivered to the carrier even though the shipment is under reservation (Section 2-505); but
(b) if it does require him to deliver them at a particular destination and the goods are there duly tendered while in the possession of the carrier, the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are there duly so tendered as to enable the buyer to take delivery.

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March 08, 2013, 04:56:38 AM
 #79

Determination of the parties’ rights and obligations must be made when ambiguity exists in the contract between them. The resolution of that ambiguity begins with a determination of whether the contract is a "shipment" or a "destination" contract. If the contract does not require the seller to deliver the goods at a particular destination, a “shipment” contract is presumed. On the other hand, a “destination” contract is characterized by a seller’s obligation to deliver at a particular destination.

Clearly the shipment by Coinabul was a destination shipment and would therefore, if not for the merchant exception, would still place the risk of loss with Coinabul until tendered for delivery

Clearly how?  That doesn't make sense.  Coinabul didn't obligate itself to deliver the goods directly to the buyer, Coinabul's obligation was to deliver them to a carrier for shipment.  Otherwise, you're suggesting that everything that has a "destination" short of picking the goods up yourself is a "destination" contract, if this were so, there would be nothing left to occupy the definition of a "shipment" contract.

On the other hand, the operative thing that would make the difference is that the buyer "paid extra for insured shipping".  This alone would put the burden on Coinabul, because it doesn't make sense for a buyer to pay for the insurance only to be told "Oops!  The insurance I offered and you paid for was no good, sorry, your loss".

Companies claiming they got hacked and lost your coins sounds like fraud so perfect it could be called fashionable.  I never believe them.  If I ever experience the misfortune of a real intrusion, I declare I have been honest about the way I have managed the keys in Casascius Coins.  I maintain no ability to recover or reproduce the keys, not even under limitless duress or total intrusion.  Remember that trusting strangers with your coins without any recourse is, as a matter of principle, not a best practice.  Don't keep coins online. Use paper wallets instead.
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March 08, 2013, 05:05:12 AM
 #80

destination or shipping its all in the contract  - true if its not specified then courts tend to specify it as shipping. I don't know what are in the terms and conditions for coinabul for shipping but however defined coinabul would still be a merchant and the buyer (if in the us) would have a good argument in court that the risk of loss was still with them. I am going to go have a drink  - discuss

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March 08, 2013, 06:48:04 AM
 #81


It is not the buyers fault for not assuming Coinibal was running a scam.


LMAO.

I will inform Coinabul about this debate. Perhaps they indeed have work to do and care not to read this thread day and night. As a fellow PM merchant myself, I suggest that Coinabul be given until Monday, March 18, to post their offer. This is not an unreasonably long delay. If Coinabul refunds, they can always make up for the delay by giving extra.

Also I hope that you refrain from accusations that go further than the handling of a rather small claim from customer. It is a stressful work to sell PM, international shipments are a pain, and there is always the chance that something material has not yet been revealed. (It is not unusual that there is a matter which neither party may want to disclose.)


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March 08, 2013, 03:21:41 PM
 #82

This is where I find that it is a scam. Coinabul was selling insurance but not actually providing insurance. He sold a service he did not have. Conabul needs to either ship the silver or get the tag.
To phrase this more artfully, if you find that the circumstances of the sale make it the buyer's loss if the package is lost or stolen in shipment, that just demonstrates that Coinabul's negligent failure to secure effective insurance harmed the buyer, a harm that Coinabul would be responsible for. If a merchant charges a customer for insurance, just as if a merchant charges a customer for anything else, it's the merchant's responsibility to ensure the thing sold is adequate for the purpose intended.

This assumes that the failure to secure appropriate insurance was negligent on Coinabul's part. The posts above suggest that, but it's not absolutely clear.

Even assuming the failure wasn't negligent, it is unthinkable to me that Coinabul wouldn't make good on the loss. Here we have a customer who didn't knowingly intend to incur any risk -- he chose to pay for the insurance that Coinabul offered. What business wants to make it their policy that even if the customer pays for the delivery insurance that that business specifically offers, they are still assuming the risk that the package may get lost or damaged in shipment and the insurance company may deny a claim for a reason that everyone involved agrees is unacceptable? (That is, not a risk the customer or business meant to assume.)

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March 08, 2013, 03:22:11 PM
 #83

This is shipping done right:  Texas Precious Metals, my PM provider of choice.

"Every product we sell is in stock and available for immediate shipment. Unlike most dealers: If we don't have it, we don't sell it. You will not wait three months for an order like you do with other companies! We strictly observe our policy of shipping all orders within 3 business days of receipt of payment. (If for some rare and unexpected reason we miss this window, we will do all in our power to correct and amend.) When your order ships, you will receive an email with a tracking number.

All packages ship fully insured. If a package is lost or stolen in transit, it is our responsibility to file a claim and issue you a new package. Orders over $6,000 ship fully insured for FREE. Orders less than $6,000 will incur a shipping and insurance charge between $19.95 and $29.95, depending on value. All shipments will require a signature. Packages will not be left on your doorstep.

As of July 23rd, 2012, we ship 90% of our packages through UPS. Gold orders over 10 ounces will ship UPS Overnight (or in some cases, by FedEx Overnight). All other orders ship UPS ground. For certain orders, depending on value, weight, and location, we may ship via USPS Registered Mail, or FedEx. Shipments to PO Boxes will automatically ship via USPS. We will not ship to mail forwarding companies. We do ship to military addresses, provided customers are aware that our liability for the package ends the moment it is signed for by the military.

We use three vaults for inventory diversification: our main vault is located in southern Texas. We also store at vaults on the East coast and West coast. Depending on your location, inventory levels, product choices, or other factors, we may ship from any of our three vaults.

Be advised that you may receive a tracking number before our carriers actually scan the package, so if your tracking number does not display tracking information the moment you receive the tracking number, please try again after 5pm CST.

If your order ships via USPS Registered Mail (to PO Box customers), please note that registered mail can be slow, sometimes taking as long as 3-10 business days. The USPS online tracking system is not always accurate, often setting an arrival date much earlier than actual delivery date, as though the package were shipping "Priority" instead of "Registered".

All packing operations are videotaped. In the rare event that we make a mistake, we will review our video logs and happily correct any mistaken shipment.

We always welcome clients to pick up orders in person. We are open Monday through Friday 8am to 5pm CST for pickup. Please note: 1. We still require payment via bank wire even when picking up in person. 2. We request at least 24 hour advance notice of your arrival. We do not have a showroom, and for security reasons, our vault is not located at our administrative address. Therefore, your advance notice is greatly appreciated.

If you are picking up in person, be advised that we are Texan, so the entire staff is armed."

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March 08, 2013, 03:28:22 PM
 #84

I think that Coinabul is in the wrong here and should send the silver, but I think that this is a misappropriation of the SCAMMER tag. The scammer tag shouldn't be used to settle contract disputes between two people who believe they were acting in good faith, but disagree on the outcome of a failed deal. Coinabul did buy the insurance, and the insurance company isn't honoring the amount to Coinabul so in their view they did what they could to insure it, but that insurance didn't pay, so there is nothing for the buyer. The buyers sees it as they bought insurance from Coinabul and so they should insure the delivery regardless. Both can be seen as good faith views and so there is no reason to think anyone is acting as a SCAMMER.

That said, due to Coinabul's interpretation of their responsibility here, I will no longer recommend their service to others and if someone asks about them in public forums, I will warn them of this case.
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March 08, 2013, 03:34:59 PM
 #85

Has the money been refunded? Should coinabul be added to the scammer list. Has this issue been resolved? If the customer has not been sent more silver or been refunded then the answer is yes.

Please advise. Thanks

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March 08, 2013, 04:08:25 PM
 #86

it doesn't make sense for a buyer to pay for the insurance only to be told "Oops!  The insurance I offered and you paid for was no good, sorry, your loss".

That's it. It doesn't matter what the law says about this. If you're a business and you care about your reputation then you cover the loss yourself and then you go and find a better insurance company. Anything else is unacceptable.

Those who cause problems for others also cause problems for themselves.
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March 09, 2013, 12:51:44 AM
 #87

Could anyone even remotely imagine Casascius behaving like this?

I've considered a couple of times starting a BTC-for-bullion sales company, but didn't because there was already a player (Coinabul) in the arena. Now... hmm.

I've already got the domain: btcsilver.com (and btcsilver.co, btcslv.com, btcslv.co)

And the logo:



81BTC back in July? What's that: $400-$500 USD worth of product?

If I do decide to start this company now, I'll cover that myself, just as a howdy-do y'all  Smiley



Actually pm me on this, I know people who own one of the biggest gold sellers in the US, I can speak to him, about supporting bitcoin.

Phil
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March 09, 2013, 01:39:34 AM
 #88

This is a tricky one. From the OP there are kind of conflicting issues. I will bold and give my interpretation of each section below.

MY STORY: I paid Coinabul 81.8251 btc for an order of silver on July 30, 2012. I paid extra for insured shipping. I didn't receive anything. I have been given no proof that anything was sent. They strung me along for seven months, with half promises of paying out of their own pockets to cover it but never committing to anything. They only gave a final answer when I started a thread here on bitcointalk. Their answer: Sorry, we can't help you.

THEIR STORY: They claim that they sent my order on August 22. They claim that they filed a claim with their insurance company for a lost shipment but the claim was rejected because the value of the order had changed past some arbitrary threshold such that the policy no longer covers it. Coinabul refuse to replace the order or the bitcoins.


Ok, so the buyer purchased insurance from the postal service through Coinabul. Coinabul charges extra to insure the package with the postal service (assuming he did so). The insurance was properly filed, but due to a time lapse limitation the postal service refused to pay the insurance claim.

Assuming all of that is correct, I don't technically think its Coinabul's fault due to the fact that he fulfilled his obligation to ship the package, and to facilitate the proper insurance. It sounds like both of you were boned by a clause in the insurance terms.

But! If that invalidation of the insurance due to price fluctuation was due to an unreasonable time lapse before Coinabul filed the claim, then I would say it is his mistake that should be fixed. Then you would also have to define unreasonable amount of time, but I guess more information is needed, as there are a lot of variables that decide is it Coinabul's fault, or the shipping company's. You can't expect Coinabul to financially burden himself over something that he did to the best of his ability that suits the needs that he had to fill, unless it was an avoidable oversight that caused the situation.

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March 09, 2013, 01:45:46 AM
 #89

I can't believe they haven't fucking refunded yet. Will not ever do business with Coinabul after reading this.

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March 09, 2013, 01:54:26 AM
 #90

This is a tricky one. From the OP there are kind of conflicting issues. I will bold and give my interpretation of each section below.

MY STORY: I paid Coinabul 81.8251 btc for an order of silver on July 30, 2012. I paid extra for insured shipping. I didn't receive anything. I have been given no proof that anything was sent. They strung me along for seven months, with half promises of paying out of their own pockets to cover it but never committing to anything. They only gave a final answer when I started a thread here on bitcointalk. Their answer: Sorry, we can't help you.

THEIR STORY: They claim that they sent my order on August 22. They claim that they filed a claim with their insurance company for a lost shipment but the claim was rejected because the value of the order had changed past some arbitrary threshold such that the policy no longer covers it. Coinabul refuse to replace the order or the bitcoins.


Ok, so the buyer purchased insurance from the postal service through Coinabul. Coinabul charges extra to insure the package with the postal service (assuming he did so). The insurance was properly filed, but due to a time lapse limitation the postal service refused to pay the insurance claim.

Assuming all of that is correct, I don't technically think its Coinabul's fault due to the fact that he fulfilled his obligation to ship the package, and to facilitate the proper insurance. It sounds like both of you were boned by a clause in the insurance terms.

But! If that invalidation of the insurance due to price fluctuation was due to an unreasonable time lapse before Coinabul filed the claim, then I would say it is his mistake that should be fixed. Then you would also have to define unreasonable amount of time, but I guess more information is needed, as there are a lot of variables that decide is it Coinabul's fault, or the shipping company's. You can't expect Coinabul to financially burden himself over something that he did to the best of his ability that suits the needs that he had to fill, unless it was an avoidable oversight that caused the situation.


So u expect the customer to take responsibility for the failings of the shipper? You are crazy. If he ordered something he should receive it. If it did not turn up on time, you would expect anyone to replace the item under their cost. The only way that it could possibly be his fault is that a neighbor or someone signed for it and it then went missing. As it was delivered to the correct address. Any other company in the world would ship a replacement, even if it meant they took a loss for the year.

Phil
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March 09, 2013, 01:58:10 AM
 #91

I can't believe they haven't fucking refunded yet. Will not ever do business with Coinabul after reading this.

Don't forget that Jon works at or co-owns BitcoinStore.com also.
I know I'm not buying anything there now. inb4 they try to pull the same stunt.
I'll just buy on real shops who will let me chargeback non-delivered merchandise.

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March 09, 2013, 02:03:03 AM
 #92

I finally learned not too long ago not to fret over the 1 shipment a year that actually gets lost. Cost of doing business.

Whoever runs Coinabul hasn't yet learned not to be stubborn in this kind of situation. Pissing off a customer like this probably cost them at least hundred fold more in potential profits than replacing a $500 order. Especially since reputation is ESSENTIAL in this community.

I run http://mail-to-jail.com. I am "thebaron-btc" on Bitcoin-OTC.
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March 09, 2013, 02:10:22 AM
 #93

I've done business with Coinabul.  I've received every shipment - after an email asking where the shipment was.  In their defense, I've never registered an account and always did a straight purchase.  One status request email went unanswered for more than four days while the order was being "checked" (not fun).  I got the order, but no email with a shipping confirmation or tracking number.   The reason Jon gave was that sometimes Gmail "doesn't play nice with our emails occasionally".   I was pleased with product, but I thought the communication could have been better.  

I have an order pending with Amagi metals, and I've had three very good transactions with Jay at rarepandacoins.  I tend to stress when I have coins sent through the mail, and I'm almost OCD'ing while watching the tracking number.  I don't like stress.  This customer's experience may have soured future purchases with Coinabul.
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March 09, 2013, 11:35:20 AM
 #94

Has the money been refunded? Should coinabul be added to the scammer list. Has this issue been resolved? If the customer has not been sent more silver or been refunded then the answer is yes.

Please advise. Thanks

No, no resolution at this time. Coinabul have been silent since the post on the first page.
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March 09, 2013, 11:41:03 AM
 #95

The only scammer here is the USPS
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March 09, 2013, 11:59:44 AM
 #96

There's no issue of scamming, OP should really edit the title and go with the liability angle.  If Coinabul was scamming, there'd be a lot more complaints than just one.  If USPS was scamming, that would be evident as well. 

The buyer is not liable for an ordered product (with insurance) that doesn't make it to the destination.  If the buyer was given the option for insurance (like a check-box) and declined - buyer is liable.  If the buyer did not research customs laws within his/her country and it got seized - buyer is liable.  If the buyer knows the product is illegal to own and it gets seized anywhere between shipper and buyer - buyer is liable.  Those are the only three instances that I can see where Coinabul is not liable. 

Coinabul is on the hook for providing faulty/inadequate insurance, something that absolutely should have been researched extensively before coin #1 shipped.  I don't remember anything when I ordered from them about risk involved with shipping coins/bullion.  They need that as an "I Agree" checkbox at order placement. 

It's not a scam, no malice from Coinabul and no intent to defraud.  Liability though?  If this went to small claims court, unless the circumstances were like the ones listed above, this would be over in 15 minutes in favor of the buyer. 
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March 09, 2013, 02:18:52 PM
 #97

There's no issue of scamming, OP should really edit the title and go with the liability angle. 
...
If this went to small claims court, unless the circumstances were like the ones listed above, this would be over in 15 minutes in favor of the buyer. 

So if somebody is in fact liable for something but does not accept liability then he's not scamming? Great logic there.

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March 09, 2013, 02:39:45 PM
 #98

Coinable should be ashamed of themselves, instead of acting like there in the right. WOW!

Also, I dont know why this dude pretends to be from the states (4:30AM US time) I call Bullshit!. He's from Montreal Canada to be more specific, Cathcart St. Downtown Montreal.

I would never use these guys services, not because there a scam which clearly they are not, they have delivered many orders. But because they have the worst customer service I've ever seen, and coming from the scam telemarketing capitol of the world where CS is everything I'd expect better CS from them especially when there selling a legit product!
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March 09, 2013, 03:02:11 PM
 #99

There's no issue of scamming, OP should really edit the title and go with the liability angle.
...
If this went to small claims court, unless the circumstances were like the ones listed above, this would be over in 15 minutes in favor of the buyer.  

So if somebody is in fact liable for something but does not accept liability then he's not scamming? Great logic there.

May not seem logical, but it's the rules of law.  Coinabul is disputing the liability.  When you say "in fact liable", unless you've got some black robes and juris doctorate we dont know about, you can't "in fact liable" anything.

You've got some kind of PROOF that shows Coinabul DIDN'T have any insurance for this shipment?  It's a liability dispute.  Coinabul believes that they are not liable.  Buyer believes Coinabul is liable.  Up to a judge to decide in a civil decision.

If buyer decides to go through with a civil subpoena and proves that Coinabul didn't insure the package, then go ahead with your scammer label.

Good enough logic fer ya?
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March 09, 2013, 03:04:10 PM
 #100

May not seem logical, but it's the rules of law.  Coinabul is disputing the liability.  When you say "in fact liable", unless you've got some black robes and juris doctorate we dont know about, you can't "in fact liable" anything.

You've got some kind of PROOF that shows Coinabul DIDN'T have any insurance for this shipment?  It's a liability dispute.  Coinabul believes that they are not liable.  Buyer believes Coinabul is liable.  Up to a judge to decide in a civil decision.

If buyer decides to go through with a civil subpoena and prove that Coinabul didn't insure the package, then go ahead with your scammer label.

Good enough logic fer ya?

This forum has its own rules, so tagging Coinabul as a scammer is completely separate from the court of law.
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March 09, 2013, 03:11:36 PM
 #101

If I was Jon, I'd post a pic or some kind of documentation showing that insurance was purchased for that order.  If they can't provide it, refund the order or get scammer tag.  If Coinabul can provide the proper docs, let em hash it out in small claims court. 
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March 09, 2013, 03:14:54 PM
 #102

May not seem logical, but it's the rules of law.  Coinabul is disputing the liability.  When you say "in fact liable", unless you've got some black robes and juris doctorate we dont know about, you can't "in fact liable" anything.

You've got some kind of PROOF that shows Coinabul DIDN'T have any insurance for this shipment?  It's a liability dispute.  Coinabul believes that they are not liable.  Buyer believes Coinabul is liable.  Up to a judge to decide in a civil decision.

If buyer decides to go through with a civil subpoena and prove that Coinabul didn't insure the package, then go ahead with your scammer label.

Good enough logic fer ya?

This forum has its own rules, so tagging Coinabul as a scammer is completely separate from the court of law.


You're right.  However throwing that tag around without some kind of proofs will diminish the "scammer tag" to the point that it's meaningless.  In my opinion? You've got to show some clear intent that Coinabul wanted to save some profit by not insuring or under-insuring the package.
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March 09, 2013, 03:26:45 PM
 #103

May not seem logical, but it's the rules of law.  Coinabul is disputing the liability.  When you say "in fact liable", unless you've got some black robes and juris doctorate we dont know about, you can't "in fact liable" anything.

You've got some kind of PROOF that shows Coinabul DIDN'T have any insurance for this shipment?  It's a liability dispute.  Coinabul believes that they are not liable.  Buyer believes Coinabul is liable.  Up to a judge to decide in a civil decision.

If buyer decides to go through with a civil subpoena and prove that Coinabul didn't insure the package, then go ahead with your scammer label.

Good enough logic fer ya?

This forum has its own rules, so tagging Coinabul as a scammer is completely separate from the court of law.


You're right.  However throwing that tag around without some kind of proofs will diminish the "scammer tag" to the point that it's meaningless.  In my opinion? You've got to show some clear intent that Coinabul wanted to save some profit by not insuring or under-insuring the package.

Excuse me, but what would they be saving if the customer was the one who paid extra for the insurance?
I wouldn't call it save some profit, but stealing would fit right in...

MY STORY: I paid Coinabul 81.8251 btc for an order of silver on July 30, 2012. I paid extra for insured shipping.

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March 09, 2013, 03:45:02 PM
 #104

From Coinabuls TOS:

Quote
Dispute Resolution  It is our goal that all disputes can be resolved in a timely fashion. To that end, use of any Coinabul service requires that you agree to dispute resolution as outlined below: 1.Forum Selection: The State courts of Wyoming shall have jurisdiction in any disputes. Disputes must be resolved within those courts. By using any Coinabul service, you agree to waive any objection to the jurisdiction of those courts. 2.Governing Law: This User Agreement shall be governed and interpreted in agreement with the laws of Wyoming. 3.Waiver of Jury Trial: Arbitration: BOTH COINABUL AND YOU WAIVE YOUR RIGHT TO TRAIL BY JURY AND ARBITRATION IN THE EVENT OF ANY DISPUTE.  Liability  Failure to perform or delay in the performance of any of our obligations due to events that are beyond our control is excusable, and Coinabul cannot be held responsible or liable for any losses or damages incurred because of such events.  Further Assurances  By using any Coinabul service, you agree to complete and provide any other reasonable documentation or actions which may be required.  Notices  All communications with us must be through an authorized agent of Coinabul in the state of Wyoming. All communications to you will be sent to the mailing address, or e-mail address you provided upon registration.     Absence of Waivers Any failure or decision not to take action in response to any of your failures to comply with these Conditions of Use does not affect the ability of Coinabul to act upon any other such failure.     Severability    If any term of the User Agreement is found to be unenforceable under the applicable laws, it does not affect the enforceability of any other term. If you have any questions regarding Coinabul, contact us: via email at contact@Coinabul.com, or by phone at 1-321-222-7748, or by mail at 2710 Thomes Ave, Cheyenne WY, 82001.

The "TRAIL" by jury made me lol.  If I were the buyer, I'd start the procedure with the Wyoming courts.  Stay off the trails though, I hear theres big bear out there.
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March 09, 2013, 03:50:54 PM
 #105

From Coinabuls TOS:

Quote
Dispute Resolution  It is our goal that all disputes can be resolved in a timely fashion. To that end, use of any Coinabul service requires that you agree to dispute resolution as outlined below: 1.Forum Selection: The State courts of Wyoming shall have jurisdiction in any disputes. Disputes must be resolved within those courts. By using any Coinabul service, you agree to waive any objection to the jurisdiction of those courts. 2.Governing Law: This User Agreement shall be governed and interpreted in agreement with the laws of Wyoming. 3.Waiver of Jury Trial: Arbitration: BOTH COINABUL AND YOU WAIVE YOUR RIGHT TO TRAIL BY JURY AND ARBITRATION IN THE EVENT OF ANY DISPUTE.  Liability  Failure to perform or delay in the performance of any of our obligations due to events that are beyond our control is excusable, and Coinabul cannot be held responsible or liable for any losses or damages incurred because of such events.  Further Assurances  By using any Coinabul service, you agree to complete and provide any other reasonable documentation or actions which may be required.  Notices  All communications with us must be through an authorized agent of Coinabul in the state of Wyoming. All communications to you will be sent to the mailing address, or e-mail address you provided upon registration.     Absence of Waivers Any failure or decision not to take action in response to any of your failures to comply with these Conditions of Use does not affect the ability of Coinabul to act upon any other such failure.     Severability    If any term of the User Agreement is found to be unenforceable under the applicable laws, it does not affect the enforceability of any other term. If you have any questions regarding Coinabul, contact us: via email at contact@Coinabul.com, or by phone at 1-321-222-7748, or by mail at 2710 Thomes Ave, Cheyenne WY, 82001.

The "TRAIL" by jury made me lol.  If I were the buyer, I'd start the procedure with the Wyoming courts.  Stay off the trails though, I hear theres big bear out there.

Dont you just love coinable's head office. Check it out!

https://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=2710+thomes+ave+cheyenne+wy+82001&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x876f3a93a5c892d5:0x468b99bf478d1dd9,2710+Thomes+Ave,+Cheyenne,+WY+82001,+USA&gl=ca&ei=1Vk7Ud-EOtCUqwH1j4HQAQ&ved=0CC4Q8gEwAA

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March 09, 2013, 03:57:35 PM
 #106

So u expect the customer to take responsibility for the failings of the shipper? You are crazy. If he ordered something he should receive it. If it did not turn up on time, you would expect anyone to replace the item under their cost. The only way that it could possibly be his fault is that a neighbor or someone signed for it and it then went missing. As it was delivered to the correct address. Any other company in the world would ship a replacement, even if it meant they took a loss for the year.

Phil

No, but you can't expect the shipper to be penalized for the fault of the shipping company IF he filed everything correctly. If he did in fact place adequate and proper insurance on the package, and did ship it out, and the shipping company is refusing to pay the insurance claim for whatever bs reason, its not the buyer or sellers fault. So it comes down to, A. the buyer gets screwed due to no fault of their own, or B. the seller gets screwed due to no fault of their own.


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March 09, 2013, 04:04:10 PM
 #107

Coinabul believes that they are not liable.  Buyer believes Coinabul is liable.  Up to a judge to decide in a civil decision.

Yeah, right. The buyer is in Australia and the seller is in the US. Coinabul knows very well that it would be very difficult and expensive to bring legal action against him and that's why he says he isn't liable. Almost everybody else, yourself included, believes that he is indeed liable. He scammed him because he thought he would get away with it. Hopefully this shitstorm will cost him more than he gained from it.

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March 09, 2013, 05:20:19 PM
 #108

What is the relationship between bitcoinstore.com and coinabul?

Should we preemptively request clarification from bitcoinstore on their policy?


I can't believe they haven't fucking refunded yet. Will not ever do business with Coinabul after reading this.

Don't forget that Jon works at or co-owns BitcoinStore.com also.
I know I'm not buying anything there now. inb4 they try to pull the same stunt.
I'll just buy on real shops who will let me chargeback non-delivered merchandise.
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March 09, 2013, 05:39:27 PM
 #109

From Coinabuls TOS:

Quote
Dispute Resolution  It is our goal that all disputes can be resolved in a timely fashion. To that end, use of any Coinabul service requires that you agree to dispute resolution as outlined below: 1.Forum Selection: The State courts of Wyoming shall have jurisdiction in any disputes. Disputes must be resolved within those courts. By using any Coinabul service, you agree to waive any objection to the jurisdiction of those courts. 2.Governing Law: This User Agreement shall be governed and interpreted in agreement with the laws of Wyoming. 3.Waiver of Jury Trial: Arbitration: BOTH COINABUL AND YOU WAIVE YOUR RIGHT TO TRAIL BY JURY AND ARBITRATION IN THE EVENT OF ANY DISPUTE.  Liability  Failure to perform or delay in the performance of any of our obligations due to events that are beyond our control is excusable, and Coinabul cannot be held responsible or liable for any losses or damages incurred because of such events.  Further Assurances  By using any Coinabul service, you agree to complete and provide any other reasonable documentation or actions which may be required.  Notices  All communications with us must be through an authorized agent of Coinabul in the state of Wyoming. All communications to you will be sent to the mailing address, or e-mail address you provided upon registration.     Absence of Waivers Any failure or decision not to take action in response to any of your failures to comply with these Conditions of Use does not affect the ability of Coinabul to act upon any other such failure.     Severability    If any term of the User Agreement is found to be unenforceable under the applicable laws, it does not affect the enforceability of any other term. If you have any questions regarding Coinabul, contact us: via email at contact@Coinabul.com, or by phone at 1-321-222-7748, or by mail at 2710 Thomes Ave, Cheyenne WY, 82001.

The "TRAIL" by jury made me lol.  If I were the buyer, I'd start the procedure with the Wyoming courts.  Stay off the trails though, I hear theres big bear out there.

Dont you just love coinable's head office. Check it out!

https://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&q=2710+thomes+ave+cheyenne+wy+82001&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x876f3a93a5c892d5:0x468b99bf478d1dd9,2710+Thomes+Ave,+Cheyenne,+WY+82001,+USA&gl=ca&ei=1Vk7Ud-EOtCUqwH1j4HQAQ&ved=0CC4Q8gEwAA



Although I'm leaning heavily toward the buyer, I opted to not get involve in this issue on this front, but since I see that the 2710 address is still being use, despite what I was led to believe otherwise, this: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=48022.0

Jay, bud, you still have an opportunity to turn this around. I suggest you go into crisis management mode. $500 is nothing when you look at the broader picture, albeit the frame needed is getting smaller with each passing day/hour/minute.

Peace, bro.

~Bruno Kuc...~

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March 09, 2013, 05:52:45 PM
 #110

In my opinion its not a scam, they just use some shitty business practices. Not evil, just negligent. I wouldn't use the service either way.
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March 09, 2013, 05:58:47 PM
 #111

In my opinion its not a scam, they just use some shitty business practices. Not evil, just negligent. I wouldn't use the service either way.

I would agree.  Scam, in my mind, infers intent to defraud from the inception. I don't think they set out to take his money. That said, they have made a very bad business decision by not reimbursing the gentleman. I will also not purchase again from coinabul.

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March 09, 2013, 06:01:21 PM
 #112

What is the relationship between bitcoinstore.com and coinabul?
They share the same Marketing Director, Mr. Jon Holmquist, it seems.

http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Guest-Page.htm?No=00662
Quote
Jon Holmquist
 
Jon Holmquist, head of Marketing at Coinabul, has been involved with Bitcoin for almost two years. With a focus on Bitcoin businesses, Jon aims to make the highly technical Bitcoin easily understood by anyone. Jon is involved with Coinabul (a Gold for Bitcoin merchant), with the site WeUseCoins (the best website for people new to Bitcoin), as well as recently launched website, BitcoinStore.com, which is selling electronics for prices lower than both Amazon and NewEgg. Jon recently founded the site BitcoinFriday after seeing a lack of merchant sales in Bitcoin as well as a lack of organization between Bitcoin vendors. Webpages to link to: http://bitcoinfriday.com http://coinabul.com http://bitcoinstore.com Video to link to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Um63OQz3bjo

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March 09, 2013, 07:31:08 PM
 #113

What is the relationship between bitcoinstore.com and coinabul?
They share the same Marketing Director, Mr. Jon Holmquist, it seems.

http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Guest-Page.htm?No=00662
Quote
Jon Holmquist
 
Jon Holmquist, head of Marketing at Coinabul, has been involved with Bitcoin for almost two years. With a focus on Bitcoin businesses, Jon aims to make the highly technical Bitcoin easily understood by anyone. Jon is involved with Coinabul (a Gold for Bitcoin merchant), with the site WeUseCoins (the best website for people new to Bitcoin), as well as recently launched website, BitcoinStore.com, which is selling electronics for prices lower than both Amazon and NewEgg. Jon recently founded the site BitcoinFriday after seeing a lack of merchant sales in Bitcoin as well as a lack of organization between Bitcoin vendors. Webpages to link to: http://bitcoinfriday.com http://coinabul.com http://bitcoinstore.com Video to link to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Um63OQz3bjo

I work with BitcoinStore and Coinabul.

No other link than that.

-Jon

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March 09, 2013, 07:36:26 PM
 #114

Scam, in my mind, infers intent to defraud from the inception.

You're wrong. Scam is a slang word and it doesn't have a precise legal definition.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/scam

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March 09, 2013, 07:53:52 PM
 #115

Scam, in my mind, infers intent to defraud from the inception.

You're wrong. Scam is a slang word and it doesn't have a precise legal definition.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/scam


It's a slang word, just like "offing" or "whacking" someone means to murder.  If I accuse you of whacking someone it's the same as an accusation of murder.  If you're accusing someone of scamming, you're accusing them of the intent to commit fraud.  What's your definition of a scammer?
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March 09, 2013, 07:54:08 PM
 #116

Scam, in my mind, infers intent to defraud from the inception.

You're wrong. Scam is a slang word and it doesn't have a precise legal definition.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/scam


Did I say it was a legal definition?  I said, in my mind.

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March 09, 2013, 07:58:39 PM
 #117

What's your definition of a scammer?

http://trendonshavers.com/ Grin

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March 09, 2013, 07:58:50 PM
 #118

Scam, in my mind, infers intent to defraud from the inception.

You're wrong. Scam is a slang word and it doesn't have a precise legal definition.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/scam


It's a slang word, just like "offing" or "whacking" someone means to murder.  If I accuse you of whacking someone it's the same as an accusation of murder.  If you're accusing someone of scamming, you're accusing them of the intent to commit fraud.  What's your definition of a scammer?

If you want to get technical websters defines scam as:

Main Entry: 1scam
Pronunciation: \ˈskam\
Function: noun
Etymology: origin unknown
Date: 1963
: a fraudulent or deceptive act or operation <an insurance scam>
------------

My note;
Both fraud and deception require intent.  I fail to see the point of disputing wether a Scam requires prior intent other than to be contrary

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March 09, 2013, 08:09:44 PM
 #119

I fail to see the point of disputing wether a Scam requires prior intent other than to be contrary

You, not me, started this BS about scam requiring prior intent.

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March 09, 2013, 08:38:42 PM
 #120

I fail to see the point of disputing wether a Scam requires prior intent other than to be contrary

You, not me, started this BS about scam requiring prior intent.

So you position is that the plain meaning of a word is bullshit? Please explain your alternative reality view of how to define scam without intent. A scam without intent has a name it's called negligence. I am fascinated please continue. Sometimes it's better to abandon a poorly constructed premise rather than continue to argue it in the absence if evidence or logic; but please continue if you feel compelled to do so.

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March 09, 2013, 09:26:57 PM
 #121

You people are being goddamned fucking silly.

I run http://mail-to-jail.com. I am "thebaron-btc" on Bitcoin-OTC.
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March 09, 2013, 09:32:40 PM
 #122

You people are being goddamned fucking silly.

I would now like to argue the meaning of the word silly Wink

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March 09, 2013, 09:37:25 PM
 #123

In my opinion its not a scam, they just use some shitty business practices. Not evil, just negligent. I wouldn't use the service either way.
If your negligence causes someone harm and you don't compensate them, that's evil. Negligence is not evil, so long as you compensate people when it causes harm.

I am an employee of Ripple Labs, the company behind the Ripple payment network.
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March 09, 2013, 09:42:17 PM
 #124

I fail to see the point of disputing wether a Scam requires prior intent other than to be contrary

You, not me, started this BS about scam requiring prior intent.

Holy Moses.  How can you accidentally scam someone when the whole point of a scam is a pre-planned act to defraud someone?  Geezus I give up, it's like arguing with Zero Hedge posters about what a Ponzi scheme is and that Bitcoin isn't one.  Just stop already.
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March 09, 2013, 09:49:24 PM
 #125

In my opinion its not a scam, they just use some shitty business practices. Not evil, just negligent. I wouldn't use the service either way.
If your negligence causes someone harm and you don't compensate them, that's evil. Negligence is not evil, so long as you compensate people when it causes harm.

So let's get a "Negligent" tag.  If Coinabul can't put forth the documents proving adequate insurance, they're negligent and should compensate.  If they don't compensate, then let the free markets take over.  There's plenty of places to trade BTC for coins. 
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March 09, 2013, 10:13:04 PM
 #126

Scam, in my mind, infers intent to defraud from the inception.

You're wrong. Scam is a slang word and it doesn't have a precise legal definition.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/scam


It's a slang word, just like "offing" or "whacking" someone means to murder.  If I accuse you of whacking someone it's the same as an accusation of murder.  If you're accusing someone of scamming, you're accusing them of the intent to commit fraud.  What's your definition of a scammer?

Scam = A fraudulent business scheme; a swindle.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/scam

Coinabul swindled him out of his money by not giving him his refund or re-sending his silver. Therefore Coinabul is my definition of a scammer.

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March 09, 2013, 10:24:42 PM
 #127

Scam, in my mind, infers intent to defraud from the inception.

You're wrong. Scam is a slang word and it doesn't have a precise legal definition.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/scam


It's a slang word, just like "offing" or "whacking" someone means to murder.  If I accuse you of whacking someone it's the same as an accusation of murder.  If you're accusing someone of scamming, you're accusing them of the intent to commit fraud.  What's your definition of a scammer?

Scam = A fraudulent business scheme; a swindle.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/scam

Coinabul swindled him out of his money by not giving him his refund or re-sending his silver. Therefore Coinabul is my definition of a scammer.


I still assert that a "swindle" or a "scam" requires prior intent. Both parties agreed to the exchange and coinabul legally obtained the money pursuant to a sales contract. The later refusal by coinabul to return the money or fulfill the contract may be tantamount to conversion or some other tort, but your argument for scam still infers an intent to defraud at the time the transaction was consummated. I could argue all day with you and I wish you could understand the logic of this but I somehow think that will not occur; after all if one does not value evidence what evidence can I present to convince you otherwise. I will say no more on the matter as your insistence on being obtuse does not warrant further entertaining.

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March 09, 2013, 10:29:00 PM
 #128

Holy Moses.  How can you accidentally scam someone when the whole point of a scam is a pre-planned act to defraud someone?  Geezus I give up, it's like arguing with Zero Hedge posters about what a Ponzi scheme is and that Bitcoin isn't one.  Just stop already.
So if Pirate had been investing people's Bitcoins in another Ponzi scheme that he himself believed was legitimate, he wouldn't have been scamming?

I still assert that a "swindle" or a "scam" requires prior intent.

If you fail to make good on an obligation, that can be a scam even if you never previously considered how you would handle the particular situation you wound up in. For example, say I irrationally believe that I can't possibly lose at blackjack. If I borrow $400 from you to play blackjack, then lose and choose not to pay you back, you can reasonably describe me as scamming you. This is true even if I was positive I'd win and fully intended to pay you back from my winnings. So long as I represented that repayment was unconditional and I never intended to pay you back if I lost, it's a scam.

That is what is alleged to have happened here. The claim is that Coinabul conveyed the representation that opting to buy insurance ensured that the buyer was covered against the package being lost or stolen in shipment when Coinabul never intended to make good on that representation if the insurance carrier failed to make good. This can be a scam even if Coinabul never considered the possibility that their insurance carrier might fail to make good.

You can never prove prior intent. Any accused scammer can always claim he decided to keep someone else's money at the last moment.

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March 09, 2013, 10:37:13 PM
 #129

Holy Moses.  How can you accidentally scam someone when the whole point of a scam is a pre-planned act to defraud someone?  Geezus I give up, it's like arguing with Zero Hedge posters about what a Ponzi scheme is and that Bitcoin isn't one.  Just stop already.
So if Pirate had been investing people's Bitcoins in another Ponzi scheme that he himself believed was legitimate, he wouldn't have been scamming?

I still assert that a "swindle" or a "scam" requires prior intent.

A scam doesn't have to be pre-planned. If you fail to make good on an obligation, that can be a scam even if you never previously considered how you would handle the particular situation you wound up in. For example, say I irrationally believe that I can't possibly lose at blackjack. If I borrow $400 from you to play blackjack, then lose and choose not to pay you back, you can reasonably describe me as scamming you. This is true even if I was positive I'd win and fully intended to pay you back from my winnings. So long as I represented that repayment was unconditional and I never intended to pay you back if I lost, it's a scam.

That is what is alleged to have happened here. Coinabul conveyed the representation that opting to buy insurance ensured that the buyer was covered against the package being lost or stolen in shipment when Coinabul never intended to make good on that representation if the insurance carrier failed to make good. This can be a scam even if Coinabul never considered the possibility that their insurance carrier might fail to make good and leave them to make good on their promise from their own pocket because of the false representation to the customer that they were in fact insured against the package being lost or stolen.


I disagree with your analysis. If a fail to pay you back that is conversion. The very essence of a scam is the intent to deceive. 

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March 09, 2013, 10:39:16 PM
 #130

I disagree with your analysis. If a fail to pay you back that is conversion. The very essence of a scam is the intent to deceive.  
The deception is that the repayment (in one example) or coverage (in the other) was unconditional when it was not.

In any event, on this forum, we use the 'scammer' tag for people who could easily, but choose not to, make good on their promises, whether there was deception initially or not. We don't have 800 different tags for fine legal distinctions in how one person can rip off another.

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March 09, 2013, 10:42:00 PM
 #131

I disagree with your analysis. If a fail to pay you back that is conversion. The very essence of a scam is the intent to deceive. 
The deception is that the repayment (in one example) or insurance (in the other) was unconditional when it was not.

You would have to prove that coinabul actually knew at the time that if the parcel was lost that no insurance coverage was to be had. If they only should have known your back to negligence and conversion. Fraud is a specific intent crime

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March 09, 2013, 11:37:23 PM
 #132

davidspitzer, you seem to have some legal training and your arguments might make some sense in a court of law. This is an internet discussion forum were anybody can come and give his opinion, yourself included. Joel Katz said it better than I ever could:

on this forum, we use the 'scammer' tag for people who could easily, but choose not to, make good on their promises, whether there was deception initially or not. We don't have 800 different tags for fine legal distinctions in how one person can rip off another.

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March 09, 2013, 11:42:28 PM
 #133

I disagree with your analysis. If a fail to pay you back that is conversion. The very essence of a scam is the intent to deceive. 
The deception is that the repayment (in one example) or insurance (in the other) was unconditional when it was not.

You would have to prove that coinabul actually knew at the time that if the parcel was lost that no insurance coverage was to be had. If they only should have known your back to negligence and conversion. Fraud is a specific intent crime

Whether or not they knew is difficult to know, but they reasonably should have known. According to Jay, the insurer said:
Quote
the shipment exceeded your per parcel limit for USPS First Class International packages.

Had Coinabul done their due diligence the would have known their insurer's per parcel limit and not exceeded it.

Whether or not they underinsured with the intent to pocket the savings or it was just negligence, who's to know? And does it matter?
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March 09, 2013, 11:51:39 PM
 #134

I disagree with your analysis. If a fail to pay you back that is conversion. The very essence of a scam is the intent to deceive. 
The deception is that the repayment (in one example) or insurance (in the other) was unconditional when it was not.

You would have to prove that coinabul actually knew at the time that if the parcel was lost that no insurance coverage was to be had. If they only should have known your back to negligence and conversion. Fraud is a specific intent crime

Whether or not they knew is difficult to know, but they reasonably should have known. According to Jay, the insurer said:
Quote
the shipment exceeded your per parcel limit for USPS First Class International packages.

Had Coinabul done their due diligence the would have known their insurer's per parcel limit and not exceeded it.

Whether or not they underinsured with the intent to pocket the savings or it was just negligence, who's to know? And does it matter?

Not really  - either way Coinabul should pay back the consumer (no matter how you describe it) Fraud is only really pertinent if you plan to pursue criminal action. I don't think Coinabul is guilty of a crime, just really poor business decisions, which probably exposes them to a Tort action in which the consumer has a compelling argument

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March 09, 2013, 11:58:15 PM
 #135

Not really  - either way Coinabul should pay back the consumer (no matter how you describe it) Fraud is only really pertinent if you plan to pursue criminal action. I don't think Coinabul is guilty of a crime, just really poor business decisions, which probably exposes them to a Tort action in which the consumer has a compelling argument

Translation for the rest of us: Coinabul is probably a scammer.

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March 09, 2013, 11:58:34 PM
 #136

davidspitzer, you seem to have some legal training and your arguments might make some sense in a court of law. This is an internet discussion forum were anybody can come and give his opinion, yourself included. Joel Katz said it better than I ever could:

on this forum, we use the 'scammer' tag for people who could easily, but choose not to, make good on their promises, whether there was deception initially or not. We don't have 800 different tags for fine legal distinctions in how one person can rip off another.

True the tag might fit given the context used on the board, no argument their

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March 10, 2013, 12:01:53 AM
 #137

Not really  - either way Coinabul should pay back the consumer (no matter how you describe it) Fraud is only really pertinent if you plan to pursue criminal action. I don't think Coinabul is guilty of a crime, just really poor business decisions, which probably exposes them to a Tort action in which the consumer has a compelling argument

Translation for the rest of us: Coinabul is probably a scammer.

I did not say that but the tag "scammer" might apply given the context used in the board to cover all misdealings. In the legal sense I think you would have a very hard time arguing that in court. I do agree that coinabul is in the wrong and clearly should reimburse the buyer

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March 10, 2013, 12:24:30 AM
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I don't think coinabul will get scammer tagged - theymos probably does not consider the evidence here to be "clear".

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March 10, 2013, 12:33:34 AM
 #139

Holy Moses.  How can you accidentally scam someone when the whole point of a scam is a pre-planned act to defraud someone?  Geezus I give up, it's like arguing with Zero Hedge posters about what a Ponzi scheme is and that Bitcoin isn't one.  Just stop already.

Quote
So if Pirate had been investing people's Bitcoins in another Ponzi scheme that he himself believed was legitimate, he wouldn't have been scamming?

You answered your own question - another Ponzi scheme?  If he took the money he collected from his Ponzi and donated to an orphanage, it's still a Ponzi and he's still a scammer.  Next question.
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March 10, 2013, 01:01:17 AM
 #140

I don't think coinabul will get scammer tagged - theymos probably does not consider the evidence here to be "clear".

At this point, it's not (in my opinion).  Coinabul has been around since the beginning.  Anyone else get screwed?  Not me, other than some communication issues.  Havent seen any other claims?  Has there ever been one besides OP? 

While I disagree with most here about the scammer tag, I believe they are liable for the insurance mishap.  Cost of doing business unfortunately. 
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March 10, 2013, 01:15:42 AM
 #141

What is the relationship between bitcoinstore.com and coinabul?
They share the same Marketing Director, Mr. Jon Holmquist, it seems.

http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Guest-Page.htm?No=00662
Quote
Jon Holmquist
 
Jon Holmquist, head of Marketing at Coinabul, has been involved with Bitcoin for almost two years. With a focus on Bitcoin businesses, Jon aims to make the highly technical Bitcoin easily understood by anyone. Jon is involved with Coinabul (a Gold for Bitcoin merchant), with the site WeUseCoins (the best website for people new to Bitcoin), as well as recently launched website, BitcoinStore.com, which is selling electronics for prices lower than both Amazon and NewEgg. Jon recently founded the site BitcoinFriday after seeing a lack of merchant sales in Bitcoin as well as a lack of organization between Bitcoin vendors. Webpages to link to: http://bitcoinfriday.com http://coinabul.com http://bitcoinstore.com Video to link to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Um63OQz3bjo

I work with BitcoinStore and Coinabul.

No other link than that.

-Jon
So as marketing director, what is your opinion on the marketing value of this thread to Coinabul?

And based on this thread, why do you continue to associate yourself with Coinabul?
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March 10, 2013, 01:29:40 AM
 #142

I think Coinabul should send back 50% to the buyer to split the losses since the USPS are dip shits.

Edit: Or 100% if it wasn't in Coinabul's Terms of Service that any package covered by insurance that was lost in transit and not paid for by the USPS would put the buyer at fault.

I think at least 50% should be refunded either way. You're the one making profit and providing a SAFE service so you should take the fault whenever the buyer doesn't receive his product, no matter what.

Up until the item reaches the buyers hands it should be your responsibility unless stated otherwise in the Terms of Service.
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March 10, 2013, 01:49:12 AM
 #143

I think Coinabul should send back 50% to the buyer to split the losses since the USPS are dip shits.

I think Coinabul should send back 100% to the buyer since he shouldn't want to be a dip shit like USPS.

Let's take a hypothetical situation:

I sell something on eBay and decide to deliver it to the buyer by car. The buyer paid me for the product and gas in advance.
During the journey I decide to go get something to eat and park the car on a restaurant parking.
Some dip shit thief decides he likes my car and wants it so much he steals it while I take a shit after those delivious roasted ribs.
FFFFFFFFUUUUUU, I was supposed to deliver the thing to that guy. What should I do?

How do I prove that the theft was not set up?
How can Coinabul prove that he didn't tip the delivering company about the silver so that they can pretend it got lost and share the profits?
There is a potential for abuse in both situations, if the seller assumes responsibility as it should be, he has no incentive whatsoever to try and scam the buyer.
Otherwise I can give the 2nd car key to a friend and ask him to 'steal' it, whereas Coinabul can keep the silver and the money, at the same time maintaining an alibi because he has a tracking number.

If my car's insurance also covered whatever's inside the car I can file a claim but meanwhile I should take the responsibility for leaving the car and choosing my insurance company (in case they would try to avoid paying) and return the rightfully owned money to the buyer due to being unable to provide the delivery of the product that was promised.
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March 10, 2013, 02:21:43 AM
 #144

Yip they are also part of the 'inner (jerk) circle'

Basically the way it works is... if you are part of the inner circle your in the clear. If you try to sell shares a day before the business goes bust, your in the clear... I could go on but we all get the point =)

I'd hate to see what happens when someone in the inner circle gets scammed... ah wait.. the scammer gets the scammer tag after 8 seconds.

I don't think coinabul will get scammer tagged - theymos probably does not consider the evidence here to be "clear".
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March 10, 2013, 04:41:55 AM
 #145

I disagree with your analysis. If a fail to pay you back that is conversion. The very essence of a scam is the intent to deceive. 
The deception is that the repayment (in one example) or insurance (in the other) was unconditional when it was not.

You would have to prove that coinabul actually knew at the time that if the parcel was lost that no insurance coverage was to be had. If they only should have known your back to negligence and conversion. Fraud is a specific intent crime

Whether or not they knew is difficult to know, but they reasonably should have known. According to Jay, the insurer said:
Quote
the shipment exceeded your per parcel limit for USPS First Class International packages.

Had Coinabul done their due diligence the would have known their insurer's per parcel limit and not exceeded it.

Whether or not they underinsured with the intent to pocket the savings or it was just negligence, who's to know? And does it matter?

Not really  - either way Coinabul should pay back the consumer (no matter how you describe it) Fraud is only really pertinent if you plan to pursue criminal action. I don't think Coinabul is guilty of a crime, just really poor business decisions, which probably exposes them to a Tort action in which the consumer has a compelling argument


Thats why its better to deal with companies in the same country so you can use consumer protection agencies to make them do the right thing.

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March 10, 2013, 07:56:12 AM
 #146

Thats why its better to deal with companies in the same country so you can use consumer protection agencies to make them do the right thing.

Yes, or pay with a credit card so that you can do a chargeback.

Yip they are also part of the 'inner (jerk) circle'

Basically the way it works is... if you are part of the inner circle your in the clear. If you try to sell shares a day before the business goes bust, your in the clear... I could go on but we all get the point =)

I'd hate to see what happens when someone in the inner circle gets scammed... ah wait.. the scammer gets the scammer tag after 8 seconds.

I don't think coinabul will get scammer tagged - theymos probably does not consider the evidence here to be "clear".

I do agree that Coinabul won't get a scammer tag because "he's one of the boys" but at least the information is out in the open for everybody to see and to make up their own mind. He will certainly lose some customers because of this, even if he doesn't get the scammer tag.

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March 10, 2013, 06:55:39 PM
 #147

Could anyone even remotely imagine Casascius behaving like this?

I've considered a couple of times starting a BTC-for-bullion sales company, but didn't because there was already a player (Coinabul) in the arena. Now... hmm.

I've already got the domain: btcsilver.com (and btcsilver.co, btcslv.com, btcslv.co)

And the logo:



81BTC back in July? What's that: $400-$500 USD worth of product?

If I do decide to start this company now, I'll cover that myself, just as a howdy-do y'all  Smiley



Same. Looks like there is room for more, this is the end of coinabul, he just does not know it yet. Even if he pays up now the damage is done.

What do u think the margin for profit is here? I know the person who just about runs Merritt finicial in the us. I can look to see what it costs to buy gold from them and they hold it all in site and could use them to ship and fill the orders if there is enough room to profit.

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March 10, 2013, 08:18:42 PM
 #148

Margin is pretty thin. I'm in talks now with a wholesale source.

Could anyone even remotely imagine Casascius behaving like this?

I've considered a couple of times starting a BTC-for-bullion sales company, but didn't because there was already a player (Coinabul) in the arena. Now... hmm.

I've already got the domain: btcsilver.com (and btcsilver.co, btcslv.com, btcslv.co)

And the logo:



81BTC back in July? What's that: $400-$500 USD worth of product?

If I do decide to start this company now, I'll cover that myself, just as a howdy-do y'all  Smiley



Same. Looks like there is room for more, this is the end of coinabul, he just does not know it yet. Even if he pays up now the damage is done.

What do u think the margin for profit is here? I know the person who just about runs Merritt finicial in the us. I can look to see what it costs to buy gold from them and they hold it all in site and could use them to ship and fill the orders if there is enough room to profit.

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March 11, 2013, 01:23:07 AM
 #149

I was attracted to Coinabul site a couple of times, even placed items in the cart, in the end I abandoned the carts because of the high premiums.
 
That being said, it's tough doing business in bitcoin world, hoarding is much easier. 
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March 11, 2013, 08:18:36 AM
 #150

This is tough all around. No one wants to give up money plain and simple.

BUT, with that being said, Coinabul really has to see the bigger picture. This is a fourm of Bitcoin users. Last time I checked we were their target market. Why would you come here and make your company look undesirable in front of hundreds of potential customers?

Most would agree that this could have been handled differently.
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March 11, 2013, 08:33:55 AM
 #151

Why would you come here and make your company look undesirable in front of hundreds of potential customers?

Lack of competition, maybe...

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March 12, 2013, 06:42:19 PM
 #152

I could imagine two situations where the seller does not need to reimburse or reship.

1. They made it clear that the extra BTC paid would be used to purchase insurance from another party and if the party did not accept the claim that Coinabul would not be liable to reimburse or reship.

2. The buyer in one way or another caused
 
  a. the shipment to not arrive

  b. the shipment to be delayed indefinitely e.g. not paying customs

  c. the insurance company to deny the claim

In any other situation I would assume (as a buyer) that Coinabul would reimburse the buyer upon starting (or shortly before starting) the claims process with the insurance company.

It seems that a fluctuation in the trading price of silver caused the claim to be denied. I am wondering if Coinabul could reclaim at a different price.  At what price was the insurance claim made? The price when the claim was made or the price upon shipment?
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March 12, 2013, 06:46:39 PM
 #153

Wow. Coinabul is terrible. They also post private conversations. I will never buy from you.
This will get big on Reddit, I hope.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1a5cjg/coinabul_sells_silver_by_insured_mail_package_is/

dip
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March 12, 2013, 07:11:15 PM
 #154

Coinabul, am I understanding this correctly?  You know for sure that the customer did not receive the product (so you know he's not scamming you), and somehow you think it's not your responsibility to fix the situation, especially when the customer paid extra for insurance?

Are you fucking high?  This is 100% on you to fix.

Scammer tag.

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March 12, 2013, 08:24:21 PM
 #155

The evidence is clear in the context of basic business and ethics. Coinabul's service did not deliver a purchased product to the Buyer. Coinabul's insurance did not cover their ass from a loss. Both are entirely outside the scope of responsibility of the Buyer.

Scam?

Yes. It's illogical to say that scams require premeditated behavior. Scamming needs behavior that determinedly affects the outcome. Aside from an astounding delay of months, intentionally not giving full and due recourse is scamming.

Good businesses deliver. When problems arise, good businesses are eager to fairly settle problems. That usually means full recourse -- and often more for the inconvenience. What often separates good businesses from unreliable/scammy business is empathy. I digress. Reputation seems irrevocably lost for the foreseeable future. Relying on future delivery from a site that puts up a fight when they're clearly wrong is for future scam victims. If a site can't handle the weight, it needs to explicitly change and disclose new policies going forward. Anything less is inherently a scam.

WTF: Did anyone see this from the Reddit post?

Quote
bravenec 4 points 1 hour ago

I have worst experience with coinabul - it is more then a month ago I have sent them 90 BTC and now I have not my gold nor my bitcoins. I have only email box full of excuses. I'm from central Europe and I think that Coinabul rely on the fact that it is hard to defend against the fraud outside from US.

This is my mail conversation with coinabul: http://bravenec.eu/coinabul

So this is a thing? Am I reading this correctly. Coinabul both couldn't send the package and then didn't refund the entire bitcoin amount of 90.7825 BTC to the person!?
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March 12, 2013, 08:24:37 PM
 #156

Coinabul, am I understanding this correctly?  You know for sure that the customer did not receive the product (so you know he's not scamming you), and somehow you think it's not your responsibility to fix the situation, especially when the customer paid extra for insurance?

Are you fucking high?  This is 100% on you to fix.

Scammer tag.

I agree, I don't see what the controversy is here.

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March 12, 2013, 08:35:14 PM
 #157

WTF: Did anyone see this from the Reddit post?

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bravenec 4 points 1 hour ago

I have worst experience with coinabul - it is more then a month ago I have sent them 90 BTC and now I have not my gold nor my bitcoins. I have only email box full of excuses. I'm from central Europe and I think that Coinabul rely on the fact that it is hard to defend against the fraud outside from US.

This is my mail conversation with coinabul: http://bravenec.eu/coinabul

So this is a thing? Am I reading this correctly. Coinabul both couldn't send the package and then didn't refund the entire bitcoin amount of 90.7825 BTC to the person!?

Ugh, another one. There's probably many more who don't want to go public...

Once a scammer, always a scammer.

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March 12, 2013, 08:52:28 PM
 #158

I agree based on the usage of the scammer tag that Coinabul deserves it. If they are a scammer or guilty of fraud is a much deeper question. They are definitely "guilty" of horrendous business ethics and poor business acumen. In law school the word scam always carried the the equivalency of fraud. Fraud does in fact require actual intent to deceive at the time the transaction takes place.

Laws against fraud vary from state to state, and can be criminal or civil in nature. Criminal fraud requires criminal intent on the part of the perpetrator, and is punishable by fines or imprisonment. Civil fraud, on the other hand, applies more broadly to circumstances where bad-faith is usually involved, and where the penalties are meant to punish the perpetrator and put the victim back in the same position before the fraud took place.

While the exact wording of fraud charges varies among state and federal laws. the essential elements needed to prove a fraud claim in general include: (1) a misrepresentation of a material fact; (2) by a person or entity who knows or believes it to be false; (3) to a person or entity who justifiably relies on the misrepresentation; and (4) actual injury or loss resulting from his or her reliance.

That said I do agree that Coinabul deserves the tag based on the commonly accepted usage on this board. They may be guilty of fraud itself but the burden of proof would be much higher than would be needed to label them as such with a forum tag

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March 12, 2013, 09:29:33 PM
 #159

This is bull. No real gold dealer would deny responsibility like this.

I had an order from APMEX go missing, in time the investigation revealed it was likely stolen from a UPS truck. APMEX had a replacement package going out before I even noticed the delivery exception. They did so PRIOR to filing THEIR insurance.

When you sell a buyer insurance it is your job to make sure the package is actually INSURED, failing that he should pay it out of pocket.

I want to buy about $20k worth of gold over the next few months and was considering Coinabul, but forget about that! His prices are so high I could just sell the bitcoins and go to the local store.
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March 12, 2013, 09:35:33 PM
 #160

This is bull. No real gold dealer would deny responsibility like this.

I had an order from APMEX go missing, in time the investigation revealed it was likely stolen from a UPS truck. APMEX had a replacement package going out before I even noticed the delivery exception. They did so PRIOR to filing THEIR insurance.

When you sell a buyer insurance it is your job to make sure the package is actually INSURED, failing that he should pay it out of pocket.

I want to buy about $20k worth of gold over the next few months and was considering Coinabul, but forget about that! His prices are so high I could just sell the bitcoins and go to the local store.

I totally agree - I have never tried them but there is this vendor also:

bitcoincommodities.com

I am going to do some research on them and if they check out I might give them a go

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March 13, 2013, 03:37:54 AM
 #161

I've sent another PM couple days ago to Coinabul where he replied that Jay would look in this issue. I hope they will stand up and make good with the buyer in this case as it's quite clear that the buyer is correct in this case.

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March 13, 2013, 04:00:26 AM
 #162

Well. This is bad. Regardless of the fact that he harassed you or not. The customer paid for insurance charges, so he needs to be reimbursed. If he hadn't paid for the insurance and then only package was lost, you guys had no liability. Considering Coinabul already realizes that package didn't reach it's desired final destination, a refund is in order. If not, I'd sadly support the rest of the people and ask for Scammer tag.
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March 13, 2013, 06:20:30 AM
 #163

I've sent another PM couple days ago to Coinabul where he replied that Jay would look in this issue. I hope they will stand up and make good with the buyer in this case as it's quite clear that the buyer is correct in this case.

+1.

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March 13, 2013, 04:53:01 PM
 #164

So what I see from this thread is that if a company ONLY steals 80 or so BTC once in a great while, it's not a scam, it's just bad business practice.
How many times does this need to happen before people consider it a scam?
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March 13, 2013, 05:47:18 PM
 #165

So what I see from this thread is that if a company ONLY steals 80 or so BTC once in a great while, it's not a scam, it's just bad business practice.
How many times does this need to happen before people consider it a scam?
I don't get that feeling.  Most people in this thread are calling for a scammer tag.

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March 13, 2013, 07:56:50 PM
 #166

The trend on this forum is that if you're not out to scam and refuse to use escrow or send the item first, you get labeled a scammer before you even get a chance complete your first transaction.

If you're actually scamming however, it takes a seemingly overwhelming amount of evidence to "convict" you of such.

I say continue scamming! The people here don't care, and it's obviously more profitable! God damn, has anyone even pressed charges against pirateat40 yet? lololol

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March 13, 2013, 08:05:14 PM
 #167

The trend on this forum is that if you're not out to scam and refuse to use escrow or send the item first, you get labeled a scammer before you even get a chance complete your first transaction.

If you're actually scamming however, it takes a seemingly overwhelming amount of evidence to "convict" you of such.

I say continue scamming! The people here don't care, and it's obviously more profitable! God damn, has anyone even pressed charges against pirateat40 yet? lololol

I think its cute when the people who got scammed say: "lets take a road trip to their house"  Tongue

but on the off chance I'm still eagerly awaiting the first bitcoin beat down news story to pop up.. "nerd beats nerd over magic internet currency fiasco"

poop!
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March 13, 2013, 11:54:57 PM
 #168

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1a5cjg/coinabul_sells_silver_by_insured_mail_package_is/]Reddit post[/url]?[/b]

Quote
bravenec 4 points 1 hour ago

I have worst experience with coinabul - it is more then a month ago I have sent them 90 BTC and now I have not my gold nor my bitcoins. I have only email box full of excuses. I'm from central Europe and I think that Coinabul rely on the fact that it is hard to defend against the fraud outside from US.

This is my mail conversation with coinabul: http://bravenec.eu/coinabul

So this is a thing? Am I reading this correctly. Coinabul both couldn't send the package and then didn't refund the entire bitcoin amount of 90.7825 BTC to the person!?
Wow, these Coinabul guys really are the pits.
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March 14, 2013, 08:36:22 AM
 #169

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1a5cjg/coinabul_sells_silver_by_insured_mail_package_is/]Reddit post[/url]?[/b]

Quote
bravenec 4 points 1 hour ago

I have worst experience with coinabul - it is more then a month ago I have sent them 90 BTC and now I have not my gold nor my bitcoins. I have only email box full of excuses. I'm from central Europe and I think that Coinabul rely on the fact that it is hard to defend against the fraud outside from US.

This is my mail conversation with coinabul: http://bravenec.eu/coinabul

So this is a thing? Am I reading this correctly. Coinabul both couldn't send the package and then didn't refund the entire bitcoin amount of 90.7825 BTC to the person!?
Wow, these Coinabul guys really are the pits.
Don't forget taking a month to ship an order while saying that it will be shipped in 2-3 business days every time.

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March 14, 2013, 08:56:52 AM
 #170

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1a5cjg/coinabul_sells_silver_by_insured_mail_package_is/]Reddit post[/url]?[/b]

Quote
bravenec 4 points 1 hour ago

I have worst experience with coinabul - it is more then a month ago I have sent them 90 BTC and now I have not my gold nor my bitcoins. I have only email box full of excuses. I'm from central Europe and I think that Coinabul rely on the fact that it is hard to defend against the fraud outside from US.

This is my mail conversation with coinabul: http://bravenec.eu/coinabul

So this is a thing? Am I reading this correctly. Coinabul both couldn't send the package and then didn't refund the entire bitcoin amount of 90.7825 BTC to the person!?
Wow, these Coinabul guys really are the pits.
Don't forget taking a month to ship an order while saying that it will be shipped in 2-3 business days every time.

I don't recall ever having a order saying it was going to be shipped in 2-3 business days but maybe they had your/theirs/that item in stock at the time and just failed to send it promptly?

see: http://coinabul.com/index.php/coinabul-secure-bullion-shipping-and-ordering-process-how-to

from what that chart says they take your coin and convert it to whatever currency(probably why they don't refund coins).. order what you wanted from apmex or whomever.. then when they receive it repackage it and mail it to you.

pretty simple actually.. perhaps I'll give it a shot one day and start my own bullion store.. (and I'll be honest and direct too.. 2-3 weeks for shipping) hell I might just keep some in stock too so you won't have to wait.
and I shall name it.. DIRTYCOINS!! cause when you get em they will be all smudged with fingerprints and some strange sticky goo.. that kind of goo you are tempted to lick and see if it tastes sweet.

poop!
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March 14, 2013, 09:42:58 AM
 #171

[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:56:27 PM] <coingenuity> absolutely, and if I can't get them to properly cover the parcel I'll quite possibly end up covering a portion of the loss out of pocket in replacements

This is the standing offer I made to Kris on the same day I was told by our insurance company that they'd likely be unable to cover the cost of replacement. This offer was in place up until give or take the point that I saw him create a similar thread on the 17th of Feb at which point I lost patience with trying to help him. I always do my best to make sure each customer is satisfied, and that I've done everything I can to that end. Heck, as I type this, there are customers with insurance claims in various stages of processing that have already had a replacement shipped to them. That's exactly why I offered to cover at least a portion of the parcel's silver, and would have been very amenable to covering 100% of the replacement, but Kris never followed up with me about my offer even at the time that I made it. He'd just send "ping" and nothing else, and go offline before I could respond. He's had my email address since before he even placed an order, but aside from "ping" on IRC periodically he hasn't really been in contact with me regarding my offer. I got an email from him on 9/13 which I replied to, and then got nothing in my inbox until January 4th.


Yes, I flew off the handle a bit when I saw this thread: I worked Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, Thanksgiving, my birthday, and New Years' Eve, New Years Day, et cetera, both this year and last. I generally work 6 or 7 days per week, and get 8 hours of sleep perhaps two nights out of the month. Instead of taking care of my financial needs, I invest every spare cent back into the company and staff, and vicariously my customers. Just one example of that is me to this day driving a car that is past the age of majority for voting, having children, drinking etc in many countries. In any possible way I help the company's growth via minimizing my own expenditures, and increase customer satisfaction by having a larger amount and variety of inventory in our vaults. So between Kris not even emailing me about the offer I made him before posting here, combined with the countless sacrifices I make as a general rule to help my customers, I of course took his accusation and the inaccuracies of his account very personally.

My apologies for losing my cool: I'm normally pretty even keeled, but this really rubbed me the wrong way in concert with some major personal stress over the last few weeks(very ill relative). Combined with the fact that I've had a standing offer to him for ages as far as taking care of him in metal or fiat, but instead of even asking me about it he just complains on here on the forums about 80btc, I really took it too personally and lost my temper. I didn't even mind the continual messages on IRC. What got to me was the lack of communication with us substantively via email or other mediums, but the effort put into fairly constant posting here of half-truths and fabrications instead. Look at the content and title of this thread, as well as his last thread: both inflationary and confrontational, demanding 80btc instead of replacement products as I offered him all the way back in November.


I'll put my offer back in place for Kris, since he IS our only failed insurance claim to date, throughout our entire history of thousands of parcels to countless countries. I always want every customer to have the best possible experience no matter what kind of exigent circumstances come into play. However, for the sake of posterity, I should make a few things clear:

-We don't self-insure parcels, for a variety of reasons. Insurance requires a high level of specialized interfacing to carriers, many hours of phone calls, and extensive fraud investigations. Not only would our ability to self-insure be subpar compared to the professional commercial offerings we utilize, but it would open us up to a huge potential for fraud and cause much higher shipping rates for our customers and decrease efficiency dealing with carriers/governments.

-We never use carrier insurance coverage- they specifically exclude precious metals via fuzzy language buried deep in the insurance disclaimers and policies.

-We always use private insurance that is specifically vetted for precious metals coverage and designed for higher than average value coverage.

-We ALWAYS use tracking numbers, no matter what, even on uninsured shipments. There would be no way to correlate orders to shipments if we did not, and I'm not even sure there's a low-grade enough USPS service that even comes sans tracking number.

-USPS insurance itself is off the table for our shipments: if you read the insurance documentation provided by USPS in-depth you can see that the maximum coverage they'll provide for bullion on non-registered-mail shipments is $15.

-Registered Mail is off the table for high-volume shipments: it's a service rarely utilised by average consumers, and when it comes down to how we are able to integrate with carriers to produce prepaid shipments Registered Mail is for all intensive purposes unavailable. In terms of value, once a shipment reaches the point where Registered Mail would be engaged(more than $500 for an international shipment), security protocols and insurance companies get upgraded quite heavily as does the carrier. USPS, even with registered mail, is only suitable for low-weight low-value shipments.

-We always buffer the value of a shipment's insurance by a wide margin, at great cost to us, to ensure that even during heavy market volatility the insured value can remain valid.

-We cover random expenses that come up for orders on a regular basis, whether it's upgrading the security protocols / insurance for $100 out-of-pocket to ensure a volatility buffer+coverage, paying insane government fees for bizarre demands($400 to Thailand recently, for example), sending PCGS instead of standard uncirculated coins when the market dries up, eating the cost of insuring large orders beyond what we actually charged($1100 for one single order recently), et cetera. We spend a TON of money making sure customers are well taken care of, and would have done so for Kris had he actually communicated with us and taken me up on my offer to replace.

-Unfortunately, as a rule we encounter a LOT of fraud. I'm not quite sure how we compare to more traditional fiat-based dealers, but without writing an instruction manual for potential scammers I can tell you that there are a variety of ways that people routinely attempt to defraud us for quite large sums of money.

-We don't hoard your coins for weeks or months at a time. This would in essence equate to gambling with customers' funds instead of engaging in our conversion process. We maintain metal reserves, and continually replace our reserves to account for products ordered.

-As I said before, out of thousands of shipments this has been our only failed claim to date. Our loss rates, claim-success-rates aside, are around 0.25%, which is exceedingly low. That's why I offered Kris some replacement metal happily in November.



I'm not quite sure what the uproar is about: Nearly 5 months ago I tried to open the door with him as far as my willingness to cover some, if not all, of the cost of his failed insurance claim. Instead of taking me up on it, he just sent non-substantive IRC messages continually and posted on the forums complaining about 80btc. I'm re-extending that offer to him again, despite his less-than-truthful portrayal of events. As my long-term customers and peers will tell you, I tend to be a very reasonable person if you take the time to talk to me and will always bend over backwards to enrich Bitcoin in any way possible.

-Jay

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March 14, 2013, 11:07:36 AM
 #172

If the offer is full replacement of my coins, then -- Offer accepted. I eagerly await my replacement silver.

But, for posterity, I'll respond to some of your points. You state that I've been less than truthful. I maintain that I haven't, but I'll meet you halfway and concede that there does appear to have been a rather large breakdown in communication between us.

[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:56:27 PM] <coingenuity> absolutely, and if I can't get them to properly cover the parcel I'll quite possibly end up covering a portion of the loss out of pocket in replacements

This is the standing offer I made to Kris on the same day I was told by our insurance company that they'd likely be unable to cover the cost of replacement. This offer was in place up until give or take the point that I saw him create a similar thread on the 17th of Feb at which point I lost patience with trying to help him...  That's exactly why I offered to cover at least a portion of the parcel's silver, and would have been very amenable to covering 100% of the replacement, but Kris never followed up with me about my offer even at the time that I made it.

At no point did I get the impression that an offer was being made. There was no, "Nope they won't cover it, I'll replace it (or x%). Do you accept that?". It was all, "I'll keep chasing them, but if they don't, then I may (or probably will)". In my opinion, your 'offers' were non-committal and indefinite.

I was waiting for a final decision. I certainly didn't realise that I had to somehow accept something, or that there was anything definite to accept. I assumed that if you decided to, you'd send replacements and let me know.

Quote
He'd just send "ping" and nothing else, and go offline before I could respond. He's had my email address since before he even placed an order, but aside from "ping" on IRC periodically he hasn't really been in contact with me regarding my offer. I got an email from him on 9/13 which I replied to, and then got nothing in my inbox until January 4th.

As previously stated, I'd just log on to see of you were on. If not, I'd try again later. Email had proved ineffective so I had largely abandoned it as a comms channel. I think perhaps you attributed bad intentions when there were none. It was simply a real pain in the arse trying to communicate across the globe with email not being effective.

Quote
So between Kris not even emailing me about the offer I made him before posting here, combined with the countless sacrifices I make as a general rule to help my customers, I of course took his accusation and the inaccuracies of his account very personally.

I emailed Jon on Jan 8, he forwarded it to you on Jan 9. I purposely waited over a month before starting the thread on Feb 17. I didn't receive any contact from you until I started that thread.

Quote
Look at the content and title of this thread, as well as his last thread: both inflationary and confrontational, demanding 80btc instead of replacement products as I offered him all the way back in November.

In hindsight, my choice of words for the title was ill thought out. I didn't intend to imply that I expected 80btc replaced -- I even explicitly clarified this on page 3. I was just quantifying my original loss.

Confrontational? Hell yes. I felt particularly hard done by.

Edit: better werds.
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March 14, 2013, 01:58:32 PM
 #173

 Smiley Congratulations!  Smiley

President etc. of Silvervault, Hopea.fi, EIH among others.
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March 14, 2013, 04:01:15 PM
 #174

Offer accepted. I eagerly await my replacement silver.

What did you accept exactly?
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March 14, 2013, 08:22:54 PM
 #175

Offer accepted. I eagerly await my replacement silver.

What did you accept exactly?

Full replacement of my order.... I hope.

Edited the above post to remove ambiguity.
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March 18, 2013, 06:45:43 AM
 #176

Having insurance coverage on bullion shipments, let alone worldwide coverage, while being able to provide shipping service at a reasonable cost to customers is a nearly impossible challenge. Carrier level insurance doesn't even cover bullion, and if it appears to do so the likelihood of them making good on any submitted claim is slim to none.

Then why on earth are you advertising insured shipping and accepting payments for it?

I ordered once from coinabul about a year ago and although the goods arrived the shipping security precautions were, to put it mildly, reckless.

I've ordered many times from APMEX and I know what's possible and prudent.  APMEX makes all shipments via registered mail (not just insured) with ID check required on delivery and a huge pink fluorescent CARRIER MUST CHECK ID ON DELIVERY label.  Coinabul just stuck the coin in an envelope, slapped an insurance sticker on it, and tossed it in the mailbox.  It got delivered to the guy next door to me.  Fortunately he's honest and/or didn't look inside.

So I didn't order again, figuring this was an accident waiting to happen.

The printing press heralded the end of the Dark Ages and made the Enlightenment possible, but it took another three centuries before any country managed to put freedom of the press beyond the reach of legislators.  So it may take a while before cryptocurrencies are free of the AML-NSA-KYC surveillance plague.
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March 18, 2013, 06:51:33 AM
 #177

I do not guarantee anyone will receive what they ordered unless they pay for insurance

...

As far as I'm concerned, if the customer didn't pay for insurance, then any insurance I might have is to benefit me, not them.

I think you missed this part:

MY STORY: I paid Coinabul 81.8251 btc for an order of silver on July 30, 2012. I paid extra for insured shipping.

The printing press heralded the end of the Dark Ages and made the Enlightenment possible, but it took another three centuries before any country managed to put freedom of the press beyond the reach of legislators.  So it may take a while before cryptocurrencies are free of the AML-NSA-KYC surveillance plague.
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March 18, 2013, 11:12:28 AM
 #178

con-a-bull.

Best wordplay ever. Thanks, Goat!  Cheesy

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March 18, 2013, 04:52:41 PM
 #179


I didn't get a badge for Psytoshi.

In regard to Jay's explanation above, I wish that something akin to that came out earlier,  but fully understand his frustration level at the time. We all sometimes snap back wrongly, needing latter to correct that stance.

Until there's a myriad of unhappy customers of Coinabul, there's probably no reason to further concern ourselves about them, but vigilant eyes remain on them, as well as on a host of other entities, thus keeping the systems of things in check.

Peace, Jay.

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March 19, 2013, 03:32:14 AM
 #180

[Monday, November 05, 2012] [05:56:27 PM] <coingenuity> absolutely, and if I can't get them to properly cover the parcel I'll quite possibly end up covering a portion of the loss out of pocket in replacements

This is the standing offer I made to Kris on the same day I was told by our insurance company that they'd likely be unable to cover the cost of replacement.

Sorry, but "If X happens, I may do Y" does not constitute an offer capable of being accepted.

Yes, I flew off the handle a bit when I saw this thread: I worked Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, Thanksgiving, my birthday, and New Years' Eve, New Years Day, et cetera, both this year and last. I generally work 6 or 7 days per week, and get 8 hours of sleep perhaps two nights out of the month. Instead of taking care of my financial needs, I invest every spare cent back into the company and staff, and vicariously my customers. Just one example of that is me to this day driving a car that is past the age of majority for voting, having children, drinking etc in many countries. In any possible way I help the company's growth via minimizing my own expenditures, and increase customer satisfaction by having a larger amount and variety of inventory in our vaults. So between Kris not even emailing me about the offer I made him before posting here, combined with the countless sacrifices I make as a general rule to help my customers, I of course took his accusation and the inaccuracies of his account very personally.

None of this is in any way relevant to the issue at hand.  Nor is your information about your insurance and shipping policies.

-As I said before, out of thousands of shipments this has been our only failed claim to date. Our loss rates, claim-success-rates aside, are around 0.25%, which is exceedingly low. That's why I offered Kris some replacement metal happily in November.

Except you didn't.  You said that if "his" claim wasn't paid, you *might* possibly wind up covering a portion of his loss.  That is nowhere near the same as offering him a replacement.


I'm not quite sure what the uproar is about: Nearly 5 months ago I tried to open the door with him as far as my willingness to cover some, if not all, of the cost of his failed insurance claim.

What do you mean by 'his claim'?  Your language indicates that you still somehow view this as his problem when the consensus in the thread has been that it is not.


Instead of taking me up on it, he just sent non-substantive IRC messages continually and posted on the forums complaining about 80btc. I'm re-extending that offer to him again, despite his less-than-truthful portrayal of events. As my long-term customers and peers will tell you, I tend to be a very reasonable person if you take the time to talk to me and will always bend over backwards to enrich Bitcoin in any way possible.

I think you owe him his 80 BTC back or full shipment of whatever he bought, plus interest. If you lived in the same country as him you'd probably be getting hauled into court about now.

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March 19, 2013, 08:12:08 AM
 #181


Until there's a myriad of unhappy customers of Coinabul, there's probably no reason to further concern ourselves about them, but vigilant eyes remain on them, as well as on a host of other entities, thus keeping the systems of things in check.


I'll personally reserve the right to retain my concern until I actually receive a replacement...

Wonder if OP will ever do the right thing :/

OP, as in me?
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March 19, 2013, 09:01:55 AM
 #182



What I meant was I wonder if Con-A-Bull will do the right thing and send you the silver. I kinda doubt they will.



Well, as they say, it's not over until the fat lady sings. And she hasn't uttered so much as a word since the last big post.

I'll be sure to post on the thread if I hear a song.
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March 20, 2013, 12:15:20 AM
 #183

Do you reside outside the United States?
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March 26, 2013, 08:36:25 AM
 #184

Do you reside outside the United States?

Yep.
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March 26, 2013, 10:24:43 AM
 #185

Do you reside outside the United States?

Yep.

Get your silver or a refund yet? Or any in writing confirmation that they will send you a refund or silver?

Nope. Haven't heard from them at all. Nothing since the post at the top of page 10. I sent them a PM nearly a week ago, but no response to that either.
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March 26, 2013, 11:15:48 AM
 #186

Jon Holmquist has resigned:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=156669.msg1661057#msg1661057
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March 26, 2013, 11:30:27 AM
 #187

wow

So is this still not resolved?

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March 26, 2013, 12:16:03 PM
 #188

but according to Jon:

... Jay has now resolved both issues that gained notoriety on the forums and this subreddit, ...
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March 26, 2013, 12:19:38 PM
 #189

cmon guys not worth fighting over this. Just try to put any emotions aside and talk and resolve it. Customer is always right, no matter how harassing or annoying or posting stuff on forums he might (or might not) be. It is so much easier to do the right thing for customer and move on than fighting it (rightly or wrongly).

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March 26, 2013, 03:18:29 PM
 #190

I'm lost for words!

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March 26, 2013, 03:42:57 PM
 #191

Wait so the guy named 'Coinabul' was just an employee and not the owner of the company?  I hope the site moderators let him change his name....

BTC: 1D8AM4aXWEbCX3RcemZjZBxB6X1uqhthqY  LTC: LVtDsd9cWFU5ueQsJ5nNFgBRTghPUV4isg
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March 26, 2013, 03:46:24 PM
 #192

Isn't the owner of Coinabul aware of what threads like these mean to his business? Negative opinions spread a lot faster than positive ones. It is difficult to acquire trust and respect and so easy to lose it. Or maybe he only relies on a select few customers who are regular buyers and doesn't need to worry about the rest of the customers?
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March 26, 2013, 03:59:20 PM
 #193

Wait so the guy named 'Coinabul' was just an employee and not the owner of the company?  I hope the site moderators let him change his name....

Jay has control of account it seems. (or atleast now he does)

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=42204;sa=showPosts
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March 26, 2013, 04:25:32 PM
 #194

Isn't the owner of Coinabul aware of what thread like these mean to his business?

Programmers rarely have customer service skills.

I run http://mail-to-jail.com. I am "thebaron-btc" on Bitcoin-OTC.
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March 26, 2013, 08:33:31 PM
 #195

I put a Coinabul order in on Wednesday which was supposed to have "Next Day Express" shipping. The order is still showing as "processing."

I spoke with and got an email from Jay on Thursday saying it should be shipped by Monday. It's late Tuesday now, my order still says "processing," and I have heard nothing new. Just left a message on his phone.

I know things may be shaken up because the one guy quit, but customers should at least be kept updated.

Edit: Just got a call, was told I should have a tracking number within 24 hours. . .

Do not waste your time debating whether Bitcoin can work. It does work.

"Early adopters will profit" is not a sufficient condition to classify something as a pyramid or Ponzi scheme. If it was, Apple and Microsoft stock are Ponzi schemes.

There is no such thing as "market manipulation." There is only buying and selling.
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March 26, 2013, 08:57:12 PM
 #196

no... that's just how they are...

you ask if they have an item in stock.. they say yes... and you'll get it in a few days... then you wait 3-4 weeks for them to purchase the item...

expect such excuses such as

- its hard to buy gold at the moment
- we didn't see your email
- 3-4x you will recieve your item this week

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March 26, 2013, 09:12:10 PM
 #197

see : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=158747
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March 27, 2013, 09:30:38 AM
 #198

but according to Jon:

... Jay has now resolved both issues that gained notoriety on the forums and this subreddit, ...


That's half true. A resolution has been proposed, but it hasn't been... 'consummated'.

And I haven't received any communications at all. It may well be that with Jon leaving, Jay is snowed under. But given the visibility that this has gained, I'd have thought this would be near the top of his to-do list...
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March 27, 2013, 11:07:02 AM
 #199

It seems other active customers are not getting PMs sent back (after weeks). He might just be overwhelmed or well this is the beginning of the end of a large scam.
Or perhaps just the end of a company with shitty customer service.
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March 27, 2013, 11:10:25 AM
 #200

It seems other active customers are not getting PMs sent back (after weeks). He might just be overwhelmed or well this is the beginning of the end of a large scam.
Or perhaps just the end of a company with shitty customer service.

Respectable people that brought up a company from zero to something and spent lots of time trying to make it work do not leave those companies without a very, very good reason. Trust me, I know.