BetSoft Non-Payment of Jackpot

[cjmoles]

Well, I won one of those jackpots at Bodog (Bovada) and I began getting paid through WU within the week....it took sometime to get totally paid off because they had a $3,000 dollar weekly withdrawal limit.  However, the jackpot I won wasn't as large as yours but it was pretty substantial.  If this win was legit, I'm sure it'll be paid....If the game was played with promotional bonus credits and not a clean unattached deposit, then you might want to read the promotional credit terms and conditions  <---  That's a common oversite that negates many "big wins." Read the terms and conditions when taking any kind of bonus, deposit bonuses included, at any online casino. Anyway, if the win's legit, you'll be paid.

[CL-Ed]

Check out https://www.casinolistings.com/jackpots/betsoft/glam-life-jackpot

They track the jackpot on bodog for same game and list a seperate jackpot for each denom.

Pretty strong evidence you got at least one bullshit response from both Betcoin and Betsoft.

https://i.gyazo.com/c84251ad1e17d69edfddb9fcbbe81246.png

Hi there, I am the guy who runs CasinoListings.com and wrote the jackpot tracker you referenced there. I have been specifically looking into Betsoft jackpots over the past 9 months or so due to a complaint that a member of our forum posted about some of them being unwinnable. I have found some very interesting and disturbing stuff including a number of "bugs" and discrepancies with their games and jackpots that lead me to believe that, at a minimum, their software QA is awful. I have focused mainly on the game Good Girl Bad Girl because it appears to be the most popular and widely played Betsoft game. Specifically:

• Jackpots on the exact same game, Good Girl Bad Girl, and the same coin size can be won with monotonous regularity (several times a week) for a couple hundred dollars at Slots.lv (sister site of Bovada), but have never been won and are worth 6 figures at Bovada, where the volume of play is higher.
• Several jackpots that are regularly won for small amounts "spiked" during February-March this year and rose to several thousands at Bovada, only to all be won in a short space of time and resume their normal pattern. If it happened on one jackpot you could chalk it up to luck, but it happened on several independent jackpots at exactly the same time. This indicates that something changed in the game's RNG, code, or reel structure, and it was later changed back.
• The jackpot contribution for Good Girl Bad Girl is being calculated incorrectly. The game allows you to play in Good Mode, Bad Mode, or both. If you play one or the other, 1% of your total bet goes to the jackpot. But if you play both, your total bet is doubled but so is the jackpot contribution so that 2% goes to the pot instead of 1%.
• There are similar concerns about several other Betsoft games, across many other casinos (i.e. its pretty apparent that the casinos are not to blame)

My post here has data and graphs that illustrate these problems clearly.

Betsoft games have separate jackpot pools depending on the coin size wagered. So if the OP was playing a 50c coin size and bet max, they should win the jackpot pool that is specific and separate to 50c wagers. i.e. the amount shown at the top of the game. If you go into the game and change the coin size you will see the jackpot amount change. It is not the case that they need to be betting maximum credits and the maximum coin size to qualify for the jackpot.

This is probably not a bonus-related issue where the casino caps the amount you may win after a bonus is claimed. In those situations, the games are usually not aware of the bonus and they pay out normally. When the player withdraws they are paid the maximum allowed under the terms then the remaining balance is zeroed. You should never claim deposit bonuses with win caps, they are sucker offers. What I would like to know is for the OP to clarify whether they played with money they deposited, or whether they were playing with a "free chip" or "no deposit bonus".

So if the OP's screenshot is real and this did occur while he was betting the maximum number of credits (125) and he was playing with real money that he deposited, I believe he should be paid the jackpot in full. There is nothing on the paytable or game rules about the jackpot not being paid in free spins mode. That is bullshit of the highest order. As to why the game did not pay it, we can only speculate. It could be another Betsoft "bug" or it could be deliberate. Or this could all be a photoshopped scam (sorry OP, I've seen them before).

The reaction of the casino disappoints me because they should be looking after their customer. It will cost them nothing if this jackpot is paid out as it is pooled money paid for by players. In fact it would be great publicity for them if one of their payers won it. I am genuinely baffled by their unprofessional responses, they don't seem to be the sharpest tools in the shed.

One thing I know for sure is that Betsoft are a shady company. Someone already posted information about their licensing disqualification in Alderney. The support rep claiming that Betsoft is found at all the top online casinos is full of it. Most of the top tier internet casinos do not offer their games. They seem to have concentrated recently on marketing their games to crappy affiliate-run casinos (i.e. cheap, underfunded) and non-regulated bitcoin only casinos that have a high risk of disappearing overnight. After seeing the numbers from our jackpot tracker and now this post I have absolutely no confidence that they are running fair jackpots, either by design or by accident or sloppy programming.

[jasonort]

This was played with my own money that was deposited.  I never accept any deposit bonuses because of all the play through requirements.  I promise you this was not a doctored photo.  Reference the chat log where Betcoin staff acknowledge 5 yachts on the pay line.

[TwitchySeal]

The jackpot contribution for Good Girl Bad Girl is being calculated incorrectly. The game allows you to play in Good Mode, Bad Mode, or both. If you play one or the other, 1% of your total bet goes to the jackpot. But if you play both, your total bet is doubled but so is the jackpot contribution so that 2% goes to the pot instead of 1%.

Where did you find the info listed on jackpot contribution?

Is there anywhere they have basic terms for progressives?  Like what it resets to, a list of Jackpots and which sites contribute to them?

[CL-Ed]

Thanks jasonort, that rules out the "capped bonus" excuse given by the casino support then. The reason I asked is that there are a small number of games where the provider blocks you from winning a progressive jackpot while you're playing with free bonus money.

Where did you find the info listed on jackpot contribution?

I worked out the jackpot contribution percentages myself using the network monitor in the Chrome browser. You can do it with Firebug or Fiddler as well. All you have to do is log in to the site you're checking and load the game. Then watch the network inspector - every few seconds it will query a Betsoft server for the current jackpot values. This is how they are updated in game. If you pick a time when no-one else is playing you can see that the same jackpot values are coming back with every update. Now make a spin and you will see a proportion of your bet amount gets added to the jackpot and you can work out the percentage. This works both in fun and real mode on Betsoft games (though the jackpot amounts are different of course).

Is there anywhere they have basic terms for progressives?  Like what it resets to, a list of Jackpots and which sites contribute to them?

Not that I have seen. I have emailed them a few times about the issues I have discovered and they never reply. You can usually work out the reset value by looking at the data or graph for a jackpot that has been won a few times and seeing what it consistently drops to when it is won.

Betsoft jackpots are specific to individual casinos or small groups of casinos run by the same operators. Bovada for example have different jackpot amounts at all their casinos instead of pooling them together. I don't think that Betsoft have any single pooled progressives that all their casinos contribute to. I don't know anything about Betcoin.ag but I am surprised that they have multi-million dollar jackpots on individual games given that they are a relative unknown in the casino industry. I assume that they must be pooled with some other casinos if they are legitimate, because I can't imagine that they have either turnover or funding that is anywhere near Bovada's for example.

One thing that bugs me about this is that if you're Betsoft and you don't want anyone to win your jackpot, wouldn't it be easier to just not let anyone spin five yachts in a row than to allow it and underpay them? This is why I can't rule out that they may be simply staffed with incompetent programmers who make very buggy games.

jasonort: I forgot to say that in my experience of several years of helping people in disputes with casinos, Curacao eGaming are utterly useless as a regulator. They are a rubber-stamping organisation, used primarily by operators trying to hide their identities and avoid paying tax in their home countries, that won't do anything to protect player interests or mediate in the event of a dispute. Their offical dispute resolution procedure is basically "sort it out yourself with the casino".

[TwitchySeal]

I think it's been proven that the denomination excuse is not a valid one, this should prove that the free spin excuse is also not valid:


From the paytable of greedygoblins, another Betsoft Jackpot Game:


By clarifying the jackpot can not be multiplied, we conclude that free spins that are a result of a max bet are eligible to win the jackpot.   

In Glam Life, there are no such clarifications.

[TwitchySeal]

Also worth noting is plo8monster (mod and official "site pro")

When the accusation was first made, he said this in the chat:

plo8monster: thats totally not true lol ungod ... the bonus max out at 1000chips, and the vendor has that rule .. betcoin dont pay it the vendor does ... you guys all jump on bandwagon ... but these are vendors that do sports and casino games ..... I dont have time to get into this tonight ...but the vendor limits bonus wins @ 1000 chips .... if he were spending his money and made that spin he would be Phat with coin

After more of the details emerged and it was clear most players did not agree with Betcoins stance he changed his tune:

plo8monster: i told you im not gonna to join that conversation ..im a poker pro smart enuf not to play slots ...i played maybe 10 times in my life
plo8monster: i am not knowledgable about slots
plo8monster: slots is not something i can help with i know zero about them
plo8monster: I had a roomate at that time playing my slots and showing me how with my bonuses ... but i am not a slots player
 plo8monster: why ya gotta be such a biiiish twitchy
plo8monster: this issue with Jason is NOT MY BUSINESS ... how many times must i tell you same thing it is waste of time

pathetic


Betcoin finally responds:

You fail to mention that jasonort plays at Betcoin.ag Casino frequently even after this and is well aware that these are Betsoft rules.  We also speak to him frequently and he very much enjoys the experience at Betcoin Casino over other bitcoin casinos.    Most of the top casinos feature Betsoft games and you play directly on the casinos servers under their rules and we pay out based on this and are credited on a big win such as this would have been.  It would have been awesome for us from a marketing perspective to announce this win, but it is not a jackpot win within Betsoft's rules as it is a free spin and not a max bet paid round according to Betsoft.  The result would have been the same on any other website. 

[notserp]

This was played with my own money that was deposited.  I never accept any deposit bonuses because of all the play through requirements.  I promise you this was not a doctored photo.  Reference the chat log where Betcoin staff acknowledge 5 yachts on the pay line.

if u accept the bonus on betcoin you get the bonus money on the side and only that amount has a play through and you can do what ever with your real balance unless it changed

[katerniko1]

im interested as i think this is valid jackpot how so betcoin.ag profile is not flagged red yet.? by trusted members of this forum
regards.
-Katerniko1

[cjmoles]

Thanks jasonort, that rules out the "capped bonus" excuse given by the casino support then. The reason I asked is that there are a small number of games where the provider blocks you from winning a progressive jackpot while you're playing with free bonus money.

Where did you find the info listed on jackpot contribution?

I worked out the jackpot contribution percentages myself using the network monitor in the Chrome browser. You can do it with Firebug or Fiddler as well. All you have to do is log in to the site you're checking and load the game. Then watch the network inspector - every few seconds it will query a Betsoft server for the current jackpot values. This is how they are updated in game. If you pick a time when no-one else is playing you can see that the same jackpot values are coming back with every update. Now make a spin and you will see a proportion of your bet amount gets added to the jackpot and you can work out the percentage. This works both in fun and real mode on Betsoft games (though the jackpot amounts are different of course).

Is there anywhere they have basic terms for progressives?  Like what it resets to, a list of Jackpots and which sites contribute to them?

Not that I have seen. I have emailed them a few times about the issues I have discovered and they never reply. You can usually work out the reset value by looking at the data or graph for a jackpot that has been won a few times and seeing what it consistently drops to when it is won.

Betsoft jackpots are specific to individual casinos or small groups of casinos run by the same operators. Bovada for example have different jackpot amounts at all their casinos instead of pooling them together. I don't think that Betsoft have any single pooled progressives that all their casinos contribute to. I don't know anything about Betcoin.ag but I am surprised that they have multi-million dollar jackpots on individual games given that they are a relative unknown in the casino industry. I assume that they must be pooled with some other casinos if they are legitimate, because I can't imagine that they have either turnover or funding that is anywhere near Bovada's for example.

One thing that bugs me about this is that if you're Betsoft and you don't want anyone to win your jackpot, wouldn't it be easier to just not let anyone spin five yachts in a row than to allow it and underpay them? This is why I can't rule out that they may be simply staffed with incompetent programmers who make very buggy games.

jasonort: I forgot to say that in my experience of several years of helping people in disputes with casinos, Curacao eGaming are utterly useless as a regulator. They are a rubber-stamping organisation, used primarily by operators trying to hide their identities and avoid paying tax in their home countries, that won't do anything to protect player interests or mediate in the event of a dispute. Their offical dispute resolution procedure is basically "sort it out yourself with the casino".

What can we do to make sure jasonort gets what he is owed.  Betsoft needs to be held accountable!  Maybe Betsoft, and any of it's supporters, should be blacklisted from the market!  I personally trust betcoin.ag and Bodog (Bovada), but Betsoft needs to be dealt with in a strong handed manner....In fact, I'm feeling cheated now too and I want all the money back that I've spent playing on their software chasing those progressives! <--Not that I believe that would ever happen, but for jasonort, what can we do to put the hurt on these thieves?

[TwitchySeal]

What can we do to make sure jasonort gets what he is owed.  Betsoft needs to be held accountable!  Maybe Betsoft, and any of it's supporters, should be blacklisted from the market!  I personally trust betcoin.ag and Bodog (Bovada), but Betsoft needs to be dealt with in a strong handed manner....In fact, I'm feeling cheated now too and I want all the money back that I've spent playing on their software chasing those progressives! <--Not that I believe that would ever happen, but for jasonort, what can we do to put the hurt on these thieves?

Spread the word, make sure players know what's going on.

Tell Betcoin that they should be helping Jason get paid,  if they want to keep your trust.

The more I dig the more I doubt these Jackpots are anything more than a gimmick.

Progessive Jackpots at Betcoin total over $5 million USD. Where is it?  If they were all hit tomorrow, what would happen? 

Why is there no RTP posted anywhere on any Betsoft game anywhere?
Why is there such a lack of transparency? 

[jasonort]

I have posted this on Betcoins forum.  Not happy with them and how they're representing my feelings of their handling of the situation.


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=386266.msg15328859#msg15328859

[CL-Ed]

I have been trying unsuccessfully to get in touch with anyone at Betsoft on jasonort's behalf.

In the meantime we have published a warning recommending that people avoid playing all Betsoft games.

The article is long, so if you want the TLDR version with our reasoning:

1. Documented discrepancies in their progressive jackpot payouts between the same game on different casinos, and even the same game with different coin sizes. Some jackpots appear to be impossible to win.
2. jasonort's experience in not being paid a legitimate progressive jackpot win.
3. The revoking of their Alderney license in 2014.
4. Their RNG audit is worthless because it has a specific disclaimer that says that they did not test the results from any games that actually use the RNG.
5. While looking into this I found that back in 2010 they were busted running a cheating keno game at Absolute Poker that gave players no chance of winning at all. I was unaware of this before now.

[CL-Ed]

Ok I want to post this here to pre-empt the casino and/or Betsoft trying to use what I found as an excuse. I found a single Betsoft game - Slots Angels - that does specifically state that you can't win the jackpot in free spins mode. I believe that this is for two reasons: 1. the game makes the entire centre reel wild during free spins and 2. it has a feature where you can get a re-spin on an already winning spin to have a second chance of winning some more. I don' think that either of these things happen in The Glam Life.

https://i.imgur.com/SPEpoVM.jpg

The fact that there is one game that specifically states this rule, along with the evidence posted before from Greedy Goblins, clearly suggests that The Glam Life is not supposed to operate like that. If it was, Betsoft would surely have put the rule in the paytable like they did on Slots Angels.

[DebitMe]

One reason that I can conceive that they do not want to pay out is that they are probably earning interest on the hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions that they have on deposit.  Every time a progressive increases, they hit an accrual account to store the money (or at least they should if they are properly accounting for the jackpots).  These are probably invested in low risk investments and with millions of dollars that is not their own, they are making a really good return.  Paying out a few hundred thousand would put a damper on that return.

[TwitchySeal]

One reason that I can conceive that they do not want to pay out is that they are probably earning interest on the hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions that they have on deposit.  Every time a progressive increases, they hit an accrual account to store the money (or at least they should if they are properly accounting for the jackpots).  These are probably invested in low risk investments and with millions of dollars that is not their own, they are making a really good return.  Paying out a few hundred thousand would put a damper on that return.

In other words, you think they don't want to pay out because they want to have more money.

Yes, very possible.

Perhaps you could ask Betcoin to respond to this thread.  They seem to be ignoring most, but they pay you so maybe they won't ignore you.

[jasonort]

I have asked Betcoin.ag to respond publicly in this thread. I honestly would really like to hear what their perspective is on this.  Most importantly I would like to know definitively whether they feel that I should be paid the jackpot by BetSoft.  Let's wait and see if they respond, or if they continue to bury their head in the sand an hope it goes away.

[CL-Ed]

Well if they do respond, I'd also like to know who is holding the progressive jackpot money - the casino or Betsoft?

[techgeek]

So overall this is what I conclude.

1. User deposits money wins the 5 combinations to win a jackpot
2. Poor wording on the jackpot elgible factors (based on the casinos terms) or doesnt have that bitcoin to payout to begin with flips it over on their wording?
3. User gets screwed
4.  Casino still keeps the money and doesnt payout and look shady as hell.

Cause the picture on what the OP has shows a clear win.. so i dont see why they shouldnt pay this dude out. Unless hes been caught previously cheating on the casino in other games then thats a different story.

[koshgel]

Check out https://www.casinolistings.com/jackpots/betsoft/glam-life-jackpot

They track the jackpot on bodog for same game and list a seperate jackpot for each denom.

Pretty strong evidence you got at least one bullshit response from both Betcoin and Betsoft.

Hi there, I am the guy who runs CasinoListings.com and wrote the jackpot tracker you referenced there. I have been specifically looking into Betsoft jackpots over the past 9 months or so due to a complaint that a member of our forum posted about some of them being unwinnable. I have found some very interesting and disturbing stuff including a number of "bugs" and discrepancies with their games and jackpots that lead me to believe that, at a minimum, their software QA is awful. I have focused mainly on the game Good Girl Bad Girl because it appears to be the most popular and widely played Betsoft game. Specifically:

There is some pretty substantial evidence here that some sort of foul play is at hand. Betcoin.ag has been suspiciously absent in this thread. If Betsoft has these kinds of allegations against them, Betcoin is acting complicity in the foul play by keeping their games up on their site. IMO Betcoin.ag should have to payout the jackpot, since the rules didn't explicitly state that jackpot couldn't be won on a bonus spin.