Steemit how can this thing be workable long term?

[iamnotback]

$19 per vote:

https://steemit.com/travel/@heiditravels/trespassing-waterfalls-and-giant-centipedes

This was $0.04 per vote, then some whales interjected (which has the not necessarily intended effect of maybe keeping me vested in Steem Power), so now $10 per vote:

https://steemit.com/steemit/@anonymint/get-33-more-steem-for-your-steem-dollars

Actually I think her travel blog is worth more than double my blog, and her reward is 20X greater due to more votes ($10k versus $0.5k). Actually $500 is more than I deserve (approximately an hour to produce my post and not too much originality), but $10k is also more than she deserves. Cut those down by maybe a factor of 10 in her case, and 5-10 in my case. I realize payouts need to be based on value to the community, not hours worked. And they should be higher than hours, due to other posts failing so not compensated for hours invested.

In return, I'll try my best to think of genuine solutions and try to be sincere in my analysis. If Steem can be improved, it would be the easiest and most expedient path forward.

I'll get some sleep and awake with a fresh mind on this.

[1714843196]

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[smooth]

Steem price can never "collapse" entirely - because the power to "direct" what content dominates a successful media/social platform will always be something of tremendous value to those who want to create and promote trends, commercialize the trends that they create, etc etc.

There is definitely going to be demand, but not on the "user" level. More on the corporate or ultra-whale level.

Non-sequitor. Whales dominating which content gets ranked is killing the site. So your "successful" assumption is in-congruent with your reasoning.

(keep the rebuttals coming, as I thought of all of them already)

It's not working because current whales aren't doing their work right in terms of curation... The human factor is at fault here, not the system itself.

Human factors are a consideration that has to be part of the design of any system that interacts with humans. There is no distinction.

[generalizethis]

https://steemit.com/writing/@generalizethis/book-of-wires-chapbook-section-1

Notes: The dictionary is surprisingly sophisticated and the drop from wordpad to steemit kept the spacing, which is important if you are posting a large work, it would be good to have everything typed and ready to go--there's a definite lag with editing. It's a definite upgrade from wordpress (forced blogging) and most poetry forums (technically challenged).

*Where did the poetry/poem category go? I don't know how porny steemit will get, but playboy was smart to hire literary editors to handle award winning authors and fresh talent--something to avoid the porn moniker and class the joint up. A wine section wouldn't hurt either as I'm sure Fluffy would enjoy both.

[smooth]

The design choice to give whales quadratic (votes x votes) influence

No, the post payouts are determined by some function based on sum(votes)^2 not sum(votes^2) so user stake weights are basically linear. Post weights are quadratic giving the "lottery" payoff effect (also necessary to ensure that people who vote for themselves with no agreement from others end up losing on average), but it doesn't matter if one person votes with 10X stake or ten people with X stake.

An earlier version of the function was more heavily weighted toward larger stakes but that was removed (even though the extra weighting is a positive in some ways).

[bones261]

Code:

#!/usr/bin/env python3

import base64
import getpass
import hashlib
import json
import os

pw = getpass.getpass("enter your password:  ")
pw_bytes = pw.encode("utf-8")
salt_bytes = os.urandom(8)
salt_b64 = base64.b64encode( salt_bytes )
pw_hash = hashlib.sha256( pw_bytes + salt_bytes ).digest()
pw_hash_b64 = base64.b64encode( pw_hash )

print(json.dumps(
{
    "password_hash_b64" : pw_hash_b64.decode("ascii"),
    "password_salt_b64" : salt_b64.decode("ascii"),
},
sort_keys=True,
indent=3, separators=(',', ' : ')
))

https://github.com/steemit/steem/blob/master/programs/util/saltpass.py#L1-L23
Is this hash algorithm reasonably secure? Did I find the bit of code that generates the password hash which is stored on the blockchain? Not sure because I know nothing about coding...

[iamnotback]

The design choice to give whales quadratic (votes x votes) influence

No, the post payouts are determined by some function based on sum(votes)^2 not sum(votes^2) so user stake weights are basically linear. Post weights are quadratic giving the "lottery" payoff effect (also necessary to ensure that people who vote for themselves with no agreement from others end up losing on average), but it doesn't matter if one person votes with 10X stake or ten people with X stake.

I know you already told me that upthread and I didn't write anything intended to be contrary to that.

My point is that when you have 1 million votes, that is a trillion when squared. (3 x 3 = 9) is not 1/2 of (6 x 6 = 36). Really it's just elementary school math.

I don't understand what is wrong with people voting for themselves. If everyone votes for themselves, then all the relative holdings remain constant (proportions).

[iamnotback]

I'm not really talking about tipping per-se--I'm more talking about paying for content.

I already rebutted you (did you not read?):

Edit: but even that is irrelevant because bloggers won't force their customers to tip or pay only in STEEM...

You might be able to argue that they will allow users to buy things from bloggers, but users will prefer to use credit card and maybe BTC which they already have. They see no need to convert to STEEM first. Programmers will provide what the users demand. Bloggers don't want to burden their paying users with converting to STEEM first. Golden rule is never make it difficult for people to pay you. Always provide multiple payment options. Bloggers can accept STEEM from those who already have it (i.e. those bloggers who earned STEEM from blogging), but from users who have credit card but no CC or BTC but no STEEM, the blogger would prefer to make it easy for the user to pay otherwise user may not pay. We humans hate hassle points.

Of course you refuted my argument (you left out control features--that's innovation, the new way).

I don't understand what you mean "control features"?

It was mentioned above, but let's delve into a use case for advertisers.

So we assume the artist is established.

We assume that advertisers have trouble getting the attention of public.

Control features built into the steemit platform (who gets access, how much access, time of access, ect) allow the artist to offer materials for sale (membership, bounty, bid) and the advertiser can quickly get ad to public, and likely use the artist's userbase, to target population segment. Control features. This can be developed much deeper and further, but that's your expertise--I'm good at general strategy (know thyself).

You have not described any way to escape from that fact that sellers never want to force buyers to use a token they don't already have.

This is a golden rule of commerce.

Good point, let me think about it.

(why not girls? https://chaturbate.com/female-cams/) Sooooo NSFW

One of the thoughts everyone will have is we can just make the entire site like a game, and so you buy game tokens to spend on the various features of the site. The argument for it would be that the participants want to go along with this exclusivity of token because of the economy-of-scale it has (so many features customized for it, large market of customers and sellers).

The problem with that argument is that sellers cash out to fiat. So there is a net negative flow out, because of the power law distribution of wealth (the wealthy concentrate the wealth and they need to cash out of that narrow ecosystem to invest in the wider fiat ecosystem).

Bitcoin has that problem too (e.g. Bitpay), except Bitcoin has some utility for investors that causes them to hold it (e.g. permissionless transfers across borders without bank paperwork, etc). Also Bitcoin doesn't have to pay for bloggers out of debasement forever (in addition to paying for mining security).

[generalizethis]

I'm not really talking about tipping per-se--I'm more talking about paying for content.

I already rebutted you (did you not read?):

Edit: but even that is irrelevant because bloggers won't force their customers to tip or pay only in STEEM...

You might be able to argue that they will allow users to buy things from bloggers, but users will prefer to use credit card and maybe BTC which they already have. They see no need to convert to STEEM first. Programmers will provide what the users demand. Bloggers don't want to burden their paying users with converting to STEEM first. Golden rule is never make it difficult for people to pay you. Always provide multiple payment options. Bloggers can accept STEEM from those who already have it (i.e. those bloggers who earned STEEM from blogging), but from users who have credit card but no CC or BTC but no STEEM, the blogger would prefer to make it easy for the user to pay otherwise user may not pay. We humans hate hassle points.

Of course you refuted my argument (you left out control features--that's innovation, the new way).

I don't understand what you mean "control features"?

It was mentioned above, but let's delve into a use case for advertisers.

So we assume the artist is established.

We assume that advertisers have trouble getting the attention of public.

Control features built into the steemit platform (who gets access, how much access, time of access, ect) allow the artist to offer materials for sale (membership, bounty, bid) and the advertiser can quickly get ad to public, and likely use the artist's userbase, to target population segment. Control features. This can be developed much deeper and further, but that's your expertise--I'm good at general strategy (know thyself).

You have not described any way to escape from that fact that sellers never want to force buyers to use a token they don't already have.

This is a golden rule of commerce.

Good point, let me think about it.

(why not girls? https://chaturbate.com/female-cams/) Sooooo NSFW

One of the thoughts everyone will have is we can just make the entire site like a game, and so you buy game tokens to spend on the various features of the site. The argument for it would be that the participants want to go along with this exclusivity of token because of the economy-of-scale it has (so many features customized for it, large market of customers and sellers).

The problem with that argument is that sellers cash out to fiat. So there is a net negative flow out, because of the power law distribution of wealth (the wealthy concentrate the wealth and they need to cash out of that narrow ecosystem to invest in the wider fiat ecosystem).

Bitcoin has that problem too (e.g. Bitpay), except Bitcoin has some utility for investors that causes them to hold it (e.g. permissionless transfers across borders without bank paperwork, etc).

My argument is people will follow the content providers--if you offer them superior resources (security, content production, billing services {bid, buy, rent, ect} and do this at a cheaper rate than anyone else can offer, then you get stickiness for the content provider and that's all that matters--look at chatterbate and girls getting paid with amazon gifting (people will jump through whatever hoop to get the content they want--barring something outrageous of course.

[DecentralizeEconomics]

[generalizethis]

BUY SYNERO We're making social media great again by plagiarizing republican trump speak.

At least have the decency to make a sockpuppet account.

[CoinHoarder]

To give a token investment value, you have to create some transaction demand for the token originating from those who had to buy the token (not just from tokens given away to bloggers coming out of investors' pockets).

A decentralized market combined with anonymous SBD transfers could create some demand for STEEM. 😉

I don't think Dan and company have the balls for that though. It would also require a downloadable GUI since that would make any centralized wallet a target.

I still maintain paid advertising is a part of the solution. I realize it won't solve the issue because it is not enough money, but it would create some demand for STEEM outside of the STEEM network.

They could integrate something like SIA has for file storage. An integrated image uploading solution would be quite handy actually, but I guess people wouldn't be willing to pay for it. Chalk that one up to an unprofitable yet awesomely convenient feature.

A DEX utilizing sidechains (read: not derivatives) can be a profitable feature. As long as profit is being made, it would work similarly to creating demand for STEM by offsetting debasement. It might also coincidentally create extra demand for STEEM if the SBD was used as a main trading pair against other Cryptos.

Creating a smart contract programming language which allows other people to build apps on top of STEEM which could create demand for STEEM. Aka... the Ethereum business model

Gamification could create demand for STEEM. One excellent example would be Bitcrystals... a collectable card game. Collectible card games and block chains make a lot of sense to me, but I am sure there are other types of games.

I touched on this up post, but you need to also that any feature that makes the DAC profitable works similarly to creating demand for STEEM as it offsets debasement. A casino and gambling games are a fine example. That would also likely create some demand for STEEM, but most of the gamblers would probably come from within the ecosystem.

Side note: I think allowing people to gamble with their locked up SP on an on chain casino would be a great idea. Certainly some would gamble away all their SP which would negate debasement. I can see a lot of impatient people that would do so. The casino would pay out in locked up SP, and of course the house has an edge, so I don't see any consequences for the DAC.

Record keeping and notary services could create some profit/demand.

Popularizing SBD as a savings account could create some demand. It does pay good interest compared to most bank savings accounts. It does serve as a good crypto hedge while still staying within the crypto ecosystem. Probably a better hedge than USDT or Nubits etc, considering the interest.

Offering user issued assets or crowd funding can create demand/profit, but admittedly that space is quite crowded already. There may still be some potential there.

Mutual aid societies can create demand/profit.

Creating a network of other chain's block explorers via a Masternode-like network to offer governance services to crap to currencies that don't have such could create profit via side chains.

Utilizing Masternodes offers up some interesting profitable services that can also create demand. One thing that comes to mind is by offering VPNs or possibly a TOR-like network that runs on a subscription based model. Say what you will about DASH, but I think Masternodes can be leveraged to do all sorts of things.

Since transactions are free in the STEEM network, you could setup sidechains for other Cryptos and offer discounted transfer fees. Profit is made off of transfer fees. Someone could send BTC to the side chain to lock in that same amount of BTC, then send it off the BTC chain over the STEEM network to anyone that has a STEM account.

See what I'm saying about profit though? If you can create enough profit to completely offset debasement, then it would create demand for STEEM because it is a profitable DAC. Even if you can't generate enough profit, it partially offsets debasement and a lesser amount of demand is necessary to prop up the price.

/thinking cap

My brain is tired.

[DecentralizeEconomics]

BUY SYNERO We're making social media great again by plagiarizing republican trump speak.

At least have the decency to make a sockpuppet account.

We all know that you don't have any decency.  Who else would support these slimeballs?

[CoinHoarder]

BUY SYNERO We're making social media great again by plagiarizing republican trump speak.

We all know that you don't have any decency.  Who else would support these slimeballs?

Do you personally know the Synereo developers? How do you know they are not slimeballs? Even if you knew them, how could you be sure they are not slimeballs? Everyone thought Mark Karpales, PirateAt40 and Josh Garza were stand up guys once too.

As of right now they are vaporware pushers that got rich off of an ICO. It could easily turn out to be a complete scam, or at the very least a big mess.

[chichidori]

This steemit fire is spreading faster that the fudsters brigade every post on that site will earn something lucky are the first to signup now they are taking in thousands of USD on their wallet and million on the devs pocket, and sign up is through invitation only due to high volume.

[DecentralizeEconomics]

BUY SYNERO We're making social media great again by plagiarizing republican trump speak.

We all know that you don't have any decency.  Who else would support these slimeballs?

Do you personally know the Synereo developers? How do you know they are not slimeballs? Even if you knew them, how could you be sure they are not slimeballs? Everyone thought Mark Karpales, PirateAt40 and Josh Garza were stand up guys once too.

As of right now they are vaporware pushers. It could very easily turn out to be a scam, or at the very least a big mess.

Well, I know that Dor, the CEO of Synereo LTD, was honest in his dealing with all the TauChain holders.  When he received stolen coins on the exchange, he announced that he had them and returned them.

I also know for a fact that anyone who would promote the exploitation of women for financial gain is a slimeball.  I'm not surprised in the least though.  When Stan Larimer welcomed that drug dealing, scamming, porno peddler Mark Lyford to Bitshares, it should have been a warning to everyone.  Birds of a feather.

[DecentralizeEconomics]

This steemit fire is spreading faster that the fudsters brigade every post on that site will earn something lucky are the first to signup now they are taking in thousands of USD on their wallet and million on the devs pocket, and sign up is through invitation only due to high volume.

IT'S ALL TRUE.  EVERY SINGLE WORD OF IT.

[iamnotback]

My argument is people will follow the content providers--if you offer them superior resources (security, content production, billing services {bid, buy, rent, ect} and do this at a cheaper rate than anyone else can offer, then you get stickiness for the content provider and that's all that matters--look at chatterbate and girls getting paid with amazon gifting (people will jump through whatever hoop to get the content they want--barring something outrageous of course.

There are very few narrow markets which can be so unique that no one can get them any where else for fiat.

Chatterbate accepts credit cards:

https://ssl-ccstatic.highwebmedia.com/ccauth.pdf

Note my mind is too hazy because I am very sleepy right now as I haven't slept for about 24 hours (had to go out and do errands before sleeping, just got back to house).

The more I think about this, in the case of STEEM vs. STEEM POWER, then all that really matters is you can get a high rate of transaction flow in and out of the coin. So the savers will cash out to fiat is not a problem. Because all you need is that there are a lot of other people who hold STEEM often (even if each one of them only holds it for a short-time) so that investors who hold STEEM POWER are not effectively paying the debasement cost.

So I think I agree that if you can get people to buy STEEM tokens in order to spend them in the ecosystem, then you will have solved the funding problem.

But remember that a blockchain is not a closed ecosystem. There is no way to force the content creators to only accept STEEM. Users will be able to run any decentralized client. There needs to be some compelling reason for users to want to buy some STEEM and use it to pay with instead of BTC or credit cards.

So with that, I think the problem is still not solved unless there are compelling reasons to pay in STEEM versus credit cards or BTC, but let me check my logic when I wake up....

[AlexGR]

That's some serious stuff right there: https://steemit.com/steemit/@clayop/steem-passed-ethereum-s-number-of-transaction-and-will-pass-bitcoin-soon

[AlexGR]

Steem price can never "collapse" entirely - because the power to "direct" what content dominates a successful media/social platform will always be something of tremendous value to those who want to create and promote trends, commercialize the trends that they create, etc etc.

There is definitely going to be demand, but not on the "user" level. More on the corporate or ultra-whale level.

Non-sequitor. Whales dominating which content gets ranked is killing the site. So your "successful" assumption is in-congruent with your reasoning.

(keep the rebuttals coming, as I thought of all of them already)

It's not working because current whales aren't doing their work right in terms of curation... The human factor is at fault here, not the system itself.

Human factors are a consideration that has to be part of the design of any system that interacts with humans. There is no distinction.

In that sense you are right of course. Let's put it another way. If you've paid a fortune for your steem power, you'd want to use it right and curate "responsibly" because not doing so would reflect badly on the platform and by extension it would hurt your holdings. So, in theory, the system should work because it is in the interest of the highly invested curator to do a good job. Even the narrow exploitation/collusion etc should not work for that investor because it would depreciate his holdings in the long run by undermining the platform.

It might be that the problem is located in the fact that initial coins were not valued that much and as such they are not considered a proper "investment" that must be safeguarded by proper practice - and the consequence is that they are not treated as such and the curation that should be done from them, isn't done. So we kind of return to the issue of initial distribution (?) that may have an effect on how the system works.

Compounding the effect of "oh look at what was rewarded" is the lack of content, if we compare our current position with what we'll have in, say, 3 months. At that point curation will be easier in terms of rewarding higher quality content, as it will be more. But it will be increasingly difficult to find it and/or reward it without reverting to a patterned behavior of "who's posting? Ah, that guy/girl... upvote him-her already" as time is limited.

[r0ach]