[AMC]-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion

[kslaughter]

How do you distinguish between an early-adopter share and a normal share? Are the ones trading on BitFunder now early-adopter shares?

Yes, the first 20,000,000 million shares are early-adopter shares.  Yes, all shares trading on bitfunder.com at this point are early-adopter shares.

[Theraty]

Have all 20 million shares been released?

[kslaughter]

Have all 20 million shares been released?

We have issued 20 million for early-adopters and 20 million for the growth and expansion fund.
These will be the only shares receiving dividends for the 12 month from the date of the IPO.

[nebulus]

Last week there were 4 mil shares available at IPO prices (One sell order) These have disappeared and the graph does not show any significant volume trading. I do not believe that you sold out all of the IPO "overnight". It seems like you simply removed them from circulating and no you have to buy at market price. Can you explain to us wtf is going on?

[furuknap]

Sad to see this still only trades on Bitfunder, which is a huge hurdle for a lot of investors, including myself. It looks like an interesting project, but making it difficult for new investors to buy shares reduces liquidity and thus sales price.

Get this on BTCT sooner rather than later.

.b

[lewicki]

Last week there were 4 mil shares available at IPO prices (One sell order) These have disappeared and the graph does not show any significant volume trading. I do not believe that you sold out all of the IPO "overnight". It seems like you simply removed them from circulating and no you have to buy at market price. Can you explain to us wtf is going on?

Something is sweeping through every 10-15mins picking up all buy orders above .0005. Though, it would be nice to see how many shares are left to be issued. About how many are left of the 20mil to be purchased?

What server is the irc channel on?

[paul3]

Something is sweeping through every 10-15mins picking up all buy orders above .0005. Though, it would be nice to see how many shares are left to be issued. About how many are left of the 20mil to be purchased?

You can check it here: https://bitfunder.com/assetlist

AMC   15,014,050   19G1bxo86NZc2CwP6Qq9981fkbFtVUDc56
AMC   23,942,526   16yTynjmSe5bsRGykDaaCL5bm2pxiEfcqP

 

[nebulus]

Last week there were 4 mil shares available at IPO prices (One sell order) These have disappeared and the graph does not show any significant volume trading. I do not believe that you sold out all of the IPO "overnight". It seems like you simply removed them from circulating and no you have to buy at market price. Can you explain to us wtf is going on?

Something is sweeping through every 10-15mins picking up all buy orders above .0005. Though, it would be nice to see how many shares are left to be issued. About how many are left of the 20mil to be purchased?

What server is the irc channel on?

I'll tell you what it is. The whole IPO thing is fucked. They had shares selling for 0.0005 a week ago. They realized it created a wall and people were selling cheaper than that. They removed them and now they are selling them above that because people perceive it as sold out IPO. So technically no IPO here unless they are willing to sell me some of shares at 0.0005 tight now which I can sell at market. The data is public to back up what I'm saying. Let's see what the official statement is going to be. Bottom line people are getting ripped off and that's fucked up.

[furuknap]

I'll tell you what it is. The whole IPO thing is fucked. They had shares selling for 0.0005 a week ago. They realized it created a wall and people were selling cheaper than that. They removed them and now they are selling them above that because people perceive it as sold out IPO. I have some data  let's see what the official statement is going to be.

If this is true, it is bad for AMC and assets in general. Issuers should stick with their plans and let the market decide what to do. An issuer that tries to manipulate the market or back down from previously announced plans is bad for the asset, for investors, and for the market in general.

.b

[lewicki]

Well. Contrary to what's been going on, people are picking up shares:

From the asset list: All shares add up to 40 mil

These are the IPO shares
AMC   23942526
AMC   15014050

The shareholders:
AMC   101450
AMC   99919
AMC   53112
AMC   49000
AMC   45700
AMC   39388
AMC   37766
AMC   26069
AMC   25860
AMC   24000
AMC   21400
AMC   21347
AMC   21000
AMC   20000
AMC   20000
AMC   19310
AMC   18998
AMC   17450
...
AMC   3
AMC   3
AMC   2
AMC   1
AMC   1
AMC   1

Add up to:
1,043,424 shares

Not bad for a week and a half.

[joris]

I'll tell you what it is. The whole IPO thing is fucked. They had shares selling for 0.0005 a week ago. They realized it created a wall and people were selling cheaper than that. They removed them and now they are selling them above that because people perceive it as sold out IPO. I have some data  let's see what the official statement is going to be.

If this is true, it is bad for AMC and assets in general. Issuers should stick with their plans and let the market decide what to do. An issuer that tries to manipulate the market or back down from previously announced plans is bad for the asset, for investors, and for the market in general.

.b

AMC does not deviate from the stated plan:

AMC may issue up to 20,000,000 "Early-Adopters" shares which may be posted for no less than 0.0005 BTC
each

[lewicki]

I'll tell you what it is. The whole IPO thing is fucked. They had shares selling for 0.0005 a week ago. They realized it created a wall and people were selling cheaper than that. They removed them and now they are selling them above that because people perceive it as sold out IPO. I have some data  let's see what the official statement is going to be.

If this is true, it is bad for AMC and assets in general. Issuers should stick with their plans and let the market decide what to do. An issuer that tries to manipulate the market or back down from previously announced plans is bad for the asset, for investors, and for the market in general.

.b

AMC does not deviate from the stated plan:

AMC may issue up to 20,000,000 "Early-Adopters" shares which may be posted for no less than 0.0005 BTC
each

I suppose that with the recent rise of BTC value compared to the $, even with less than 20 million shares sold, their goals should be met.

[furuknap]

I'll tell you what it is. The whole IPO thing is fucked. They had shares selling for 0.0005 a week ago. They realized it created a wall and people were selling cheaper than that. They removed them and now they are selling them above that because people perceive it as sold out IPO. I have some data  let's see what the official statement is going to be.

If this is true, it is bad for AMC and assets in general. Issuers should stick with their plans and let the market decide what to do. An issuer that tries to manipulate the market or back down from previously announced plans is bad for the asset, for investors, and for the market in general.

.b

AMC does not deviate from the stated plan:

AMC may issue up to 20,000,000 "Early-Adopters" shares which may be posted for no less than 0.0005 BTC
each

I may not have been clear in what I meant. The plan was to offer up to 20M shares. Price is not the point. If they offer 20M shares but then take it away, then re-offer at a different price, then possibly withdraw that, re-offering at yet another price... This means that early investors don't know what they will have to pay, which isn't really a feasible option.

In other words, this isn't an IPO any more, it is a regular market in which the issuer keeps dumping more shares into the market. That is not a good thing because the issuer suddenly becomes the judge of what a share should cost. This is the same thing that happened to 100th today, when the issuer decided to set up a sell-wall at a certan level because they felt the market was paying too high a price.

.b

[fently]

Since removing the sell wall they have sold more than 3 times as many shares as they had beforehand. I bought a few shares, and then realized what was going on, that they were periodically buying down to 0.0005.  So I decided to sell a few, and was repeatedly outbid on the sell. We're making high risk investments and placing a lot of trust on the issuer. In contrast, the issuer gets non-revocable funds from us up front. It's worth letting people know that the issuer is indeed still selling shares. I think this action by the issuer, first removing the wall, stating they had alternative financing, and then resuming the share sales, to be deceptive. It may not have violated the letter of what was said, but it certainly has violated my trust. I do still hold a few shares in this company but I won't be buying any more.

[joris]

.b,

I'm trying to understand your objections and I agree there should be better practices than how its going right now.

e.g.

To create transparancy, kslaughter could make the bitfunder adressen clear for:

1. investment fund - exactly 20M shares
2. shares to be sold for fundraising of AMC (productive investment) - about 19M shares atm?

In this way it is clear no one should pay more than 0.0005 BTC (risking an investment in someone elses wallet instead of AMC), but anyone is still free to pay more. Also an assessment off the value of the asset is than a possibility, knowing the capital raised.

[nebulus]

knowing the capital raised.

Capital raised for who? The company? Right... You don't know what goes back in. He can be rebuying back what he sells and you will never get out of the IPO. The 20mil * 0.0005 he supposedly owns to the shareholders will never sell out because he will always repenish his stock. This is flat out manipulation I don't know what else you would call it.

[furuknap]

.b,

I'm trying to understand your objections and I agree there should be better practices than how its going right now.

My objections is that there seems to be some flux in how the issuer approaches the market, which creates uncertainty for investors.

For a new asset, it is vital to build trust in the issuer because we are in an unregulated market where that trust is essentially the only thing separating a gold nugget and painted manure.

I mentioned this before the IPO as well, that the most important thing for an investor would be to be able to rely on the issuer to stick to their plans. Right now it seems that those plans are somewhat up for interpretation.

If an issuer says that "In this IPO we're going to issue X shares at Y price" that's fine, and the market can see whether the issuer indeed issues X shares at Y price. If the do not, either by no issuing those shares, issues more shares, issues at different prices, or fail to issue any shares at any price, then that taints the perception that the issuer's statements can be trusted.

In fact, it doesn't matter what those statements are. If the issuer says that "In our next update, we'll mention Slartibartfast" and then don't, they are not fulfilling what they are saying they will.

One of the key arguments proponets of ASICMiner has, for example, is that friedcat's goals align with his deliveries. He says "we'll to X" and they do X, or say why they can't do X and realign X based on new information. That way, the market is informed and can know what to expect when friedcat says "we're expecting more sales next week" or "we'll have 10% of the total network hashrate on average" or whatever prediction he comes up with.

.b

[fently]

Transparency will not be sufficient at this point. The problem will be regaining trust. Then again, even Ziggap still sells shares every now and then

[Vbs]

The issuer is free to sell as many shares as he wants, when deemed necessary, as long as he is following the rules stated in the initial contract offering.

I find it funny people always want to buy everything as cheap as possible, especially since the raised funds are fundamental for AMC's success.

[joris]

knowing the capital raised.

Capital raised for who? The company? Right... You don't know what goes back in. He can be rebuying back what he sells. Technically you will never get out of the IPO and the 20mil * 0.0005 he supposedly owns to the shareholders will never sell out. This is flat out manipulation I don't know what else you would call it.

Knowing may indeed be not the right word for my proposition. With proper representation of the shares, AMC is able to show the shares they hold themselves.

It requires trust in the asset manager to give a proper representation of reality, but thinking someone is giving a proper representation of reality, is a definition of trust.