BFL RIP OFF... price up 90%, 50GH/s for 2499$.

[BitSyncom]

"all sales are final"

does that mean they don't give refunds now?

[1714911956]

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[bowen151]

My guess is that they're desperate to prevent paid orders from being cancelled to stave off bankruptcy. Telling people that "all orders are final" is cute drama, but illegal in the US for a pre-order product.

I believe that is what they mean Yifu.

However according to creativx, what they are now doing is an illegal manouvre? Im unsure on the legality of this statement as I live outside the states.

[creativex]

My guess is that they're desperate to prevent paid orders from being cancelled to stave off bankruptcy. Telling people that "all orders are final" is cute drama, but illegal in the US for a pre-order product.

I believe that is what they mean Yifu.

However according to creativx, what they are now doing is an illegal manouvre? Im unsure on the legality of this statement as I live outside the states.

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/alt051-selling-internet-prompt-delivery-rules

BFL is a US company. They cannot enact that policy and comply with FTC/SEC regs. I believe they're just posturing to stave off insolvency.

[bowen151]

Thanks for the link creativex

Excerpt from:

"If you can't ship within the promised time (or within 30 days if you made no promise), you must notify the customer of the delay, provide a revised shipment date and explain his right to cancel and get a full and prompt refund.

For definite delays of up to 30 days, you may treat the customer's silence as agreeing to the delay. But for longer or indefinite delays - and second and subsequent delays - you must get the customer's written, electronic or verbal consent to the delay. If the customer doesn't give you his okay, you must promptly refund all the money the customer paid you without being asked by the customer."

Come on BFL...

[johnyj]

So it is clear this is not pre-order any more. Team avalon has started the price lifting trend with a 4X increase in price, BFL is doing reasonably ok... I heard that the latest BFL order numbers have passed 32000

Even 75000 chips of 8GH delivered and total network hashing power rised to 1PH, 3 months ROI is still possible with current BTC exchange price

[GigaWave]

Wow, complete BS. what happened to upgrade order option?  I haven't place mine as I'm already on the hook for enough money with them and their incompetence.

[creativex]

So it is clear this is not pre-order any more. Team avalon has started the price lifting trend with a 4X increase in price, BFL is doing reasonably ok... I heard that the latest BFL order numbers have passed 32000

Even 75000 chips of 8GH delivered and total network hashing power rised to 1PH, 3 months ROI is still possible with current BTC exchange price

Must be everyone with a trade in has received their notification to send in their FPGAs for sure then. No? Hmmm...

Avalon has shipped and Avalon will continue shipping. THEY have pricing power...BFL not so much.

[BCbitcoin]

Wow, complete BS. what happened to upgrade order option?  I haven't place mine as I'm already on the hook for enough money with them and their incompetence.

Yes, the official upgrade deadline was June 1. This was what was stated on the BFL forums and by josh here. Are we still able to upgrade to a 60gh single for 649 with a fpga single trade?

[nbtcminer]

Why weren't you saying this about Avalon? They want 75 BTC ($9700+ USD) for their 64GH/s machine and 88 BTC ($11,440) for their 86+GH/s machines.

Avalon have actually shipped products into enduser hands, therein lies the difference.

I'm going to hold my tongue till units ship but honestly you guys make no sense. If/When BFL delivers; will you guys own up to the fact that those who paid 75 BTC for a 60gh/s unit were fleeced?

Uhh.... are you going to  admit BFL buyers who paid 200 BTC for a single that still doesn't exist were fleeced?

@Dalkore and EntropyUC:

Hind sight is 20/20 and to a certain extent I agree with you regarding paying in BTC for ANY device; the lesson learned should be that buyers need to balance their risk when using BTC to purchase mining equipment. Not many people could have predicted that BTC would have risen to more than 10 (20 in some cases) the amount they originally paid. Was I fleeced? This remains to be seen as you have correctly stated that I do not yet have any hashing units. If I don't get my units in the next 2 - 3 months; then you are absolutely correct in stating that I fleeced and will likely be kicking myself in the ass for not just sitting on my coins.

[repentance]

God damn liars!  I guess my discount voucher is about as useful as my preorder 

And you'll only have 60 days to use it. You'll basically be paying double what you expected for a lower powered unit - what a wonderful "compensation" plan.  They could at least let those with discount vouchers purchase at the old price (100% of $1299 is better than 75% of $2500).

[Rampion]

"If you can't ship within the promised time (or within 30 days if you made no promise), you must notify the customer of the delay, provide a revised shipment date and explain his right to cancel and get a full and prompt refund.

For definite delays of up to 30 days, you may treat the customer's silence as agreeing to the delay. But for longer or indefinite delays - and second and subsequent delays - you must get the customer's written, electronic or verbal consent to the delay. If the customer doesn't give you his okay, you must promptly refund all the money the customer paid you without being asked by the customer."

Come on BFL...

This +10000000

WTF?

[BKM]

You know - it seems to me that a blinding flash of the obvious may have escaped many....

Assume BFL actually BELIEVES in BTC and, sold many of their products for BTC and converted a some proportion of their pre-order fiat funds received into BTC.

The result is that they are sitting on a massive pile of equity THAT THEY OWN.

Yes, they have a stated liability for every order received on their balance sheet (denominated in USD.) If they did this they are very well capitalized to meet the commitments to their liabilities. Possibly by an order of magnitude. In this scenario they could refund all the money and walk away with BTC gain and be rich by any common measure. They do not owe anyone the BTC they paid for their order and could certainly opt to pay them back in USD.

Do the math - BFL in all likelihood has massive non operational currency gains. The actual ratios of BTC vs fiat purchases and whether they converted anything from Fiat into BTC is speculation.... they would have to have seriously fucked up to not have experienced major gains.

Disclosure: I have orders pending with BFL

[Minor Miner]

My guess is that they're desperate to prevent paid orders from being cancelled to stave off bankruptcy. Telling people that "all orders are final" is cute drama, but illegal in the US for a pre-order product.

I believe that is what they mean Yifu.

However according to creativx, what they are now doing is an illegal manouvre? Im unsure on the legality of this statement as I live outside the states.

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/alt051-selling-internet-prompt-delivery-rules

BFL is a US company. They cannot enact that policy and comply with FTC/SEC regs. I believe they're just posturing to stave off insolvency.

Sorry, I agree with much of what you say but you have gone too far.   BFL "cannot" do that because it against the law?
Seriously?   Sonny stole money from retirees selling them fake lottery tickets.
Josh/Inaba CONSTANTLY was illegally soliciting investors and using his own name (that is an SEC securities solicitation violation).   Josh has been hosting a co-loc of bit coin miners for non USA residents that do not pay USA income tax and would each have to form a business to be legal (that is money laundering).   Josh tells people that they can "leave their rigs in MO/KS" and save the tax of their country but DOES not charge them state sales/use tax (that is fraud).   He does this all over public forms and does not care about the law.  Why would he care about the rule you linked?
  Nasser works for a broker dealer that has rule against ANY employees engaging in an outside business without submitting a form for compliance to approve (which they NEVER approve especially if it has ANYTHING to do with f/x, commodities, debt or securities.
And you think so "law" is going to stop these guys?  They have broken so many laws constantly for the last 12 months.   They do not care about any laws because they KNOW the suckers that live in their parents' basements that they have stolen this money from them WILL DO NOTHING.

[c_k]

BFL and Avalon are plain greedy it's s shame there is no other competition to keep them honest

[Minor Miner]

"If you can't ship within the promised time (or within 30 days if you made no promise), you must notify the customer of the delay, provide a revised shipment date and explain his right to cancel and get a full and prompt refund.

For definite delays of up to 30 days, you may treat the customer's silence as agreeing to the delay. But for longer or indefinite delays - and second and subsequent delays - you must get the customer's written, electronic or verbal consent to the delay. If the customer doesn't give you his okay, you must promptly refund all the money the customer paid you without being asked by the customer."

Come on BFL...

This +10000000

WTF?

What are you guys talking about?  Entropy wrote about this months ago and Josh flamed him.   You guys did not have google in march to see who was telling the truth?

[creativex]

My guess is that they're desperate to prevent paid orders from being cancelled to stave off bankruptcy. Telling people that "all orders are final" is cute drama, but illegal in the US for a pre-order product.

I believe that is what they mean Yifu.

However according to creativx, what they are now doing is an illegal manouvre? Im unsure on the legality of this statement as I live outside the states.

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/alt051-selling-internet-prompt-delivery-rules

BFL is a US company. They cannot enact that policy and comply with FTC/SEC regs. I believe they're just posturing to stave off insolvency.

Sorry, I agree with much of what you say but you have gone too far.   BFL "cannot" do that because it against the law?
Seriously?   Sonny stole money from retirees selling them fake lottery tickets.
Josh/Inaba CONSTANTLY was illegally soliciting investors and using his own name (that is an SEC securities solicitation violation).   Josh has been hosting a co-loc of bit coin miners for non USA residents that do not pay USA income tax and would each have to form a business to be legal (that is money laundering).   Josh tells people that they can "leave their rigs in MO/KS" and save the tax of their country but DOES not charge them state sales/use tax (that is fraud).   He does this all over public forms and does not care about the law.  Why would he care about the rule you linked?
  Nasser works for a broker dealer that has rule against ANY employees engaging in an outside business without submitting a form for compliance to approve (which they NEVER approve especially if it has ANYTHING to do with f/x, commodities, debt or securities.
And you think so "law" is going to stop these guys?  They have broken so many laws constantly for the last 12 months.   They do not care about any laws because they KNOW the suckers that live in their parents' basements that they have stolen this money from them WILL DO NOTHING.

Perhaps. Everyone has a breaking point. I'm sure there's a reason why BFL keeps making their "all sales are final" policy public and then honoring refund requests anyway. If I had to guess it's because they like deterring refund requests(because that's how pyramid scams breakdown) without further violating FTC/consumer protection laws.

I agree though, they're crooks.

[creativex]

BFL and Avalon are plain greedy it's s shame there is no other competition to keep them honest

Lumping Avalon in with BFL crooks is very not kewl. Avalon's product has pricing power because Avalon actually has a product. We've all seen the eBay sales with undelivered Avalons going for many times what their manufacturer sold them for. I'd raise my prices too if I was building something and shipping it to someone who'd already sold it for 10x what I sold it to them for.

[fredtrader]

If Asicminer start selling their products at least there will be a viable alternative to Avalon

[AndyRossy]

didnt you hear, BFL shipped already?

[Minor Miner]

didnt you hear, BFL shipped already?

Exactly, I do not know where these people get their news from.   They shipped days ago.   And, seemingly, they have actually sold out on the MiniRig they shipped so many.