[ANN][The Original Multipool - Scrypt/SHA256/Scrypt-N/X11] multipool.us

[flound1129]

Why time-based PPLNS is a BAD idea for multipool.

I know there already has been a long discussion in this thread about what payment system would be best for this type of pool and finally Flound has settled on time-based PPLNS.
I'm not trying to restart that discussion so we can hear the same arguments again and again but I have given it a lot of thought and I think I have some points that are really relevant and have not been made yet.

Flound argues that for the LTC pool 4-6 hours would be a good period to set for the time-based PPLNS. This can be fair based on his assumption that the LTC port has about 100MH on it when the multiport is on another coin.
But (for argument sake) let's  look at the situation where the steady hashing power on LTC would drop to a low value or even disappear. If the multiport then moves away from LTC and doesn't return within 6 hours, it will be a FACT that all shares will be lost and the multiport miners will get nothing in return for their time spent on LTC.

This is true but remember multiport miners hopped onto another lower-difficulty coin and are getting paid for that.  LTC miners are staying on LTC and will only get paid if the pool finds a block.  And if the dedicated hashrate on LTC disappears and everyone's round shares go to 0, then everyone is starting on an equal footing when the multiport comes back, so I think that is still fair.  Remember, as kslavik said, that the idea of any kind of PPLNS is not that you get paid for every share you submit, it's just that block rewards are distributed fairly when a block is found.

Should the multiport miners get paid for their shares on LTC for a full 24 hours and also their shares spent mining other easier currencies for which they got steady payouts?  I don't know that that's necessarily fair.

But really, I don't see this being an issue except maybe in a corner case where the pool is mining LTC, has bad luck, then hops to NVC and continues to have bad luck and then does not find a NVC  block for 4-5 hours.  But this is a very low probability outcome.

In a case where the pool hops to any other coin, you are generating guaranteed profits again almost instantly since the block times are so low on those coins.  Plus you still have the potential of a LTC payout if the dedicated LTC miners find a block.

Even with the mediocre luck and the short multiport stints on LTC in the past day I have a great profitability, over 3x what I would have made mining bitcoin.

[B.T.Coin]

And if the dedicated hashrate on LTC disappears and everyone's round shares go to 0, then everyone is starting on an equal footing when the multiport comes back, so I think that is still fair.

This is true if the hashrate drops to 0, but if a few dedicated miners stay on the port, they could take the whole bounty after 6 hours by submitting very little shares in that time. I think the multipool miners should get some of that since they put in a lot of shares not so many shares ago (time ago yes, shares ago no).

Should the multiport miners get paid for their shares on LTC for a full 24 hours and also their shares spent mining other easier currencies for which they got steady payouts?  I don't know that that's necessarily fair.

If the time for the time-based PPLNS is set to 24 hours, the steady LTC miners will get their share on blocks found, based on their last 24 hours of mining while the multiport miners get a relatively lower cut on blocks found while they are on LTC since they have not been on for 24 hours straight. So yes, then it is fair that they also get shares on LTC blocks found while they are on a different coin for the next 24 hours.
It will most likely even out in the end anyway, and no matter what system you choose, the differences will be minimal over time I guess. I just wanted to share my thoughts on this and will stay on your pool whatever system you use since you did a really great job and like you said, the last day we made 3 times more than we could on bitcoin

[kslavik]

And if the dedicated hashrate on LTC disappears and everyone's round shares go to 0, then everyone is starting on an equal footing when the multiport comes back, so I think that is still fair.

This is true if the hashrate drops to 0, but if a few dedicated miners stay on the port, they could take the whole bounty after 6 hours by submitting very little shares in that time. I think the multipool miners should get some of that since they put in a lot of shares not so many shares ago (time ago yes, shares ago no).

Should the multiport miners get paid for their shares on LTC for a full 24 hours and also their shares spent mining other easier currencies for which they got steady payouts?  I don't know that that's necessarily fair.

If the time for the time-based PPLNS is set to 24 hours, the steady LTC miners will get their share on blocks found, based on their last 24 hours of mining while the multiport miners get a relatively lower cut on blocks found while they are on LTC since they have not been on for 24 hours straight. So yes, then it is fair that they also get shares on LTC blocks found while they are on a different coin for the next 24 hours.
It will most likely even out in the end anyway, and no matter what system you choose, the differences will be minimal over time I guess. I just wanted to share my thoughts on this and will stay on your pool whatever system you use since you did a really great job and like you said, the last day we made 3 times more than we could on bitcoin

People who stayed inside LTC for the last 6 hours do deserve to get most of the reward. Because users in MP were getting rewards for other coins during those 6 hours. Reward is still distributed fairly based of # of shares contributed in the last 6 hours by all users.

PPLNS is fair for any amount of time or any # of shares as long as it stays the same. You cannot say that it fair if is set at 24 hours and not fair if it is set at 5 minutes. Both ways are valid and both are fair.

PPLNS only becomes unfair when there is a difficulty adjustment in play. But it only unfair if PPLNS is set at high # of shares or long amount of time.

Due to the nature of this pool PPLNS should be set to the shortest amount of time so the slowest user on the network would submit statistically significant # of shares so when the block is found, the reward would be distributed fairly.

[B.T.Coin]

PPLNS is fair for any amount of time or any # of shares as long as it stays the same. You cannot say that it fair if is set at 24 hours and not fair if it is set at 5 minutes. Both ways are valid and both are fair.

I guess you are right on this.
As you said, only in extreme cases will it become unfair but those extreme cases will most likely never happen on multipool since LTC gets a healthy amount of steady power.

[jdebunt]

glad to see we are getting some extended time on PXC

[Torn]

Flound.. you need to scrap FTC.. see http://imgur.com/a/fTye4/noscript#0

Bad news! Apparently the blocks been 51% attacked a few times...

T.

[flound1129]

PPLNS only becomes unfair when there is a difficulty adjustment in play. But it only unfair if PPLNS is set at high # of shares or long amount of time.

To expand on this (because if read a certain way, it seems to contradict kslavik's previous statement that PPLNS is always fair), PPLNS can be unfair if the number of shares is set too high because if there is a difficulty adjustment in the middle of the round, shares mined before the adjustment become worth more.

[Torn]

Ahh lol ok.. (paranoia sets in..) I was in the chatbox on cryptsy and Vern had disabled ftc trading and so blah blahh...



T.

[flound1129]

Ahh lol ok.. (paranoia sets in..)



T.

Actually, I rescind my previous comment.  FTC is currently being attacked.

We will most likely move to it in ~5 hours when the difficulty adjusts down, but I will monitor the situation and disable FTC if the attackers succeed.

[Torn]

I'm just kind-of glad I traded almost all mine few days ago.. just never know with kids these days..

T.

[flound1129]

I'm just kind-of glad I traded almost all mine few days ago.. just never know with kids these days..

T.

Hmm, maybe I should move some of the pool's FTC reserves into LTC for now.  Of course, that's assuming I can even get them into an exchange at this point.

[Torn]

Vic is still accepting..
T.

[TheFuneral]

ftc WDs suspended?

[flound1129]

Vic is still accepting..
T.

Vic?

[flound1129]

ftc WDs suspended?

Not suspended, but if there is a successful 51% attack, there is a chance your transaction could get reversed.

So I'd say "withdraw at your own risk".

[Torn]

Sorry.. Vicurex.

and we are mining FTC now ...?
Maybe should switch to a LTC maybe while we find out?


Cryptsy has temporarily suspended FTC trading while he investigates.. according to Admin there.

[Jcw188]

I just started on this pool today.  I'm getting occasionally "bad worker credentials."  Is this normal?  delays my mining for a bit

[12gaFacelift]

its what happen with "elit3" only coin, if there was a real p2pool.exe for ftc there will be more people to help against 51% attack. good luck the weather is clear here.  

[peonminer]

love multipool.in, hate FTC attacker

[Jcw188]

I just started on this pool today.  I'm getting occasionally "bad worker credentials."  Is this normal?  delays my mining for a bit

now I'm getting non-stop bad worker credentials.  Help plz