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Author Topic: Bitcoin-24.com matching engine seems broken, site down.  (Read 63593 times)
panoss
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April 20, 2013, 01:45:16 PM
 #341

I am really curious how many pages this topic will reach....
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Amitabh S
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April 20, 2013, 02:55:33 PM
 #342

From a victim of "misunderstanding" regarding money laundering, Simon now turned into a scammer of almost 30k btc. He could've done at least some symbolic steps to show his intention of returning the btc, such as opening a page showing account balances and the possibility of his customers to initiate a withdrawal request, even if only to keep records of it.
+1

A page to check balances would be really a good gesture, and more frequent communication.

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aby
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April 20, 2013, 04:03:13 PM
 #343

From a victim of "misunderstanding" regarding money laundering, Simon now turned into a scammer of almost 30k btc. He could've done at least some symbolic steps to show his intention of returning the btc, such as opening a page showing account balances and the possibility of his customers to initiate a withdrawal request, even if only to keep records of it.
+1

A page to check balances would be really a good gesture, and more frequent communication.

Agreed; is Simon currently in custody or something? The deafening silence doesn't bode very well...
Newscastix
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April 20, 2013, 04:43:50 PM
 #344

From a victim of "misunderstanding" regarding money laundering, Simon now turned into a scammer of almost 30k btc. He could've done at least some symbolic steps to show his intention of returning the btc, such as opening a page showing account balances and the possibility of his customers to initiate a withdrawal request, even if only to keep records of it.
+1

A page to check balances would be really a good gesture, and more frequent communication.

Agreed; is Simon currently in custody or something? The deafening silence doesn't bode very well...

Nope. Some people had contact with him over the last two days.

You can the last posts here: http://board.btc24-help.com/
repentance
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April 21, 2013, 04:01:51 AM
 #345

Anyone who thinks a Bitcoin exchange which allows you to make transactions without verifying your identity isn't at high risk of having their bank accounts closed without notice and being reported to authorities for possible money laundering activity is displaying an astonishing amount of wilful ignorance. 

Let's not pretend that people are unaware of the risk they're taking when using such services - they're just hoping they'll get their funds out before those services come under scrutiny.

If you've got significant funds on Bitcoin-24, be prepared to prove that you acquired them legitimately.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
michaelGedi
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April 21, 2013, 04:07:42 AM
 #346

Read these 2 threads...



http://board.btc24-help.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=81&sid=76ce23edbb991e13c2eb416231dcfd5f


http://board.btc24-help.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=82&sid=28cfe5634e3a59f7c5c6fb4960c60ef9

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knarfske
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April 21, 2013, 12:44:21 PM
 #347

pff I'm starting to loose hope that I will see my BTC's back  Embarrassed
kunibopl
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April 21, 2013, 01:25:46 PM
 #348

waiting for 3500€ to be paid out.
is there a mailing list of victims or shall we set up a site?
we definitely should combine our forces.
it even could help Simon by showing the authorities we aren't criminals, that do money laundering.

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MegaBrutal
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April 21, 2013, 02:42:35 PM
 #349

waiting for 3500€ to be paid out.
is there a mailing list of victims or shall we set up a site?
we definitely should combine our forces.
it even could help Simon by showing the authorities we aren't criminals, that do money laundering.

There is already a board set up for the victims to hold together: http://board.btc24-help.com/ - no need for any new site. Though it's a little messy at the moment, it'll be cleaned soon, hopefully.

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darnth
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April 21, 2013, 03:08:22 PM
 #350

Simon's operation was closed due to "suspicion of fraud" not ml,

" Ladies and Gentlemen,

regarding your question, I would like to inform that due www.bitcoins-24.de not the Bremen authorities, but law enforcement authorities in Berlin are responsible for the facts in the investigation. The investigation on suspicion of fraud will be conducted at the StA Berlin under number 241 Js 380/13.

I ask relevant questions thus jurisdictional convenience to be sent to the local authority in Berlin. "

therefore there maybe still a chance for fraud charges to be dropped and maybe continue the operation, or just let everybody get their money out.

Nope. There was an older investigation, under number 290 JS 47630/12, that was actually the cause for freezing and impounding his accounts. It had gone on for some time already (at least early March) and was for suspicion of money laundering.

The 241 Js 380/13 fraud cause started much later, probably after bitcoin24 was closed by Simon. Both investigations are now bundled in Berlin, so its correct that Bremen authorities dont have anything to do with it anymore.

I had posted a rough estimate of the timeline earlier (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=174600.msg1877068#msg1877068).
trepper
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April 21, 2013, 03:12:43 PM
 #351

waiting for 3500€ to be paid out.
is there a mailing list of victims or shall we set up a site?
we definitely should combine our forces.
it even could help Simon by showing the authorities we aren't criminals, that do money laundering.

If you're an EU resident, this doc will give you some insight about the (real) ways and means to get your money back:
http://ec.europa.eu/civiljustice/publications/docs/guide_litiges_civils_transfrontaliers_en.pdf

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MPOE-PR
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April 21, 2013, 04:30:53 PM
 #352

here is the document.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2329063/Beschluss%20Scan_geschwaerzt.pdf

german aouthorities.... WE ARE LOST. they are the most uninformed, stubborn, incompetent lifeform on earth. we should sue THEM, not simon. yep, we should all sue the german authorities and banks who created this mess. after we are through with them they´d never touch btc accounts again.

"We" should?

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glub0x
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April 24, 2013, 01:24:22 PM
 #353

waiting for 3500€ to be paid out.
is there a mailing list of victims or shall we set up a site?
we definitely should combine our forces.
it even could help Simon by showing the authorities we aren't criminals, that do money laundering.

If you're an EU resident, this doc will give you some insight about the (real) ways and means to get your money back:
http://ec.europa.eu/civiljustice/publications/docs/guide_litiges_civils_transfrontaliers_en.pdf
this is the path i gonna take personally. I have time and money, i hate unprofessional poeple, i do not care so much of my 2700 euro, i just care on suing. Also Always wanted to visit varsovie.

step 1 gather information on how to prosecute in eu.
step 2 gather other europeans
step 3 go to see the police.

Seems like a clear path and i don't give a shit about what they say anymore.
I'm sick of those "i look professional" business that do not help bitcoin. I have to go seek every single piece of information? Not ANY mail?

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RationalSpeculator
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April 24, 2013, 02:22:37 PM
 #354


I'm sick of those "i look professional" business that do not help bitcoin. I have to go seek every single piece of information? Not ANY mail?

I hear you man. Also did not receive a single email from them. That's VERY unprofessional.

I hope you don't file another lawsuit against them though as I think that just lowers my chances to see my money again.
manfred
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April 26, 2013, 05:33:16 PM
 #355

Publication in the Bundesanzeiger

The Bundesanzeiger publishes a document [1] from the Berlin prosecution office. The document confirms that around 2.5 Million Euro were confiscated. It says that the confiscation and it's publication enables Tatverletzte (victims basically) to claim their funds through the legal system, which the prosecutor "strongly recommends". This can of course cost money, and there's no guarantee to get your money anyway. And the document speaks of a time limit, creating a sense of urgency.

This Document speaks of victims, when there was no conviction or even indictment yet. The presumption of innocence goes right out the window.

We don't know if there was any fraud and if bitcoin24 will be able to reinstate their services.

But people with a significant investment in bitcoin24 might see that differently. Bitcoin24 still hasn't published anything trustworthy that confirms that all the customer funds can be repaid. An affidavit comes to mind.

Basically it means customer funds are gone. How many are going to fight in court for the money?
wilfried
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April 27, 2013, 09:32:23 AM
 #356

here it is
https://www.bundesanzeiger.de/ebanzwww/wexsservlet?session.sessionid=177f1349e818404e843a1aa94d580597&page.navid=detailsearchlisttodetailsearchdetail&fts_search_list.selected=88a9d5e82d42f197&fts_search_list.destHistoryId=00202


basically its telling: the prosecutors have secured the money of the german bank account. it stays with the prosecutor until the procedure is finished. it can only be withdrawn by the owners by filing a civil lawsuit in germany.
600watt
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April 27, 2013, 09:58:46 AM
 #357

here it is
https://www.bundesanzeiger.de/ebanzwww/wexsservlet?session.sessionid=177f1349e818404e843a1aa94d580597&page.navid=detailsearchlisttodetailsearchdetail&fts_search_list.selected=88a9d5e82d42f197&fts_search_list.destHistoryId=00202


basically its telling: the prosecutors have secured the money of the german bank account. it stays with the prosecutor until the procedure is finished. it can only be withdrawn by the owners by filing a civil lawsuit in germany.

before anyone is sueing btc24 i would recommend to first claim your money at btc 24 lawyer. if they dont react properly you can still file a lawsuit. btc 24 owner simon hausdorf/his lawyer mr röhl do not even know of exactly what is the accusation. they have not received the prosecutors files yet. it is way to early to conclude that a crime really happened. check out this thread first:

http://board.btc24-help.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=141

 
allocater
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April 27, 2013, 10:18:28 AM
 #358

Quote
enables Tatverletzte (victims basically) to claim their funds

It would be hilarious, if no one claims funds, because no one was a victim. Then the police would look stupid.

But it would also be hilarious, if people will just claim funds, because the police shut down the website. Then it would become a self fulfilling prophecy.
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April 27, 2013, 10:22:11 AM
 #359

here it is
https://www.bundesanzeiger.de/ebanzwww/wexsservlet?session.sessionid=177f1349e818404e843a1aa94d580597&page.navid=detailsearchlisttodetailsearchdetail&fts_search_list.selected=88a9d5e82d42f197&fts_search_list.destHistoryId=00202


basically its telling: the prosecutors have secured the money of the german bank account. it stays with the prosecutor until the procedure is finished. it can only be withdrawn by the owners by filing a civil lawsuit in germany.

before anyone is sueing btc24 i would recommend to first claim your money at btc 24 lawyer. if they dont react properly you can still file a lawsuit. btc 24 owner simon hausdorf/his lawyer mr röhl do not even know of exactly what is the accusation. they have not received the prosecutors files yet. it is way to early to conclude that a crime really happened. check out this thread first:

http://board.btc24-help.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=141

 


Caution! I did not say that for claiming the money Hausdorf has to be sued. check with your german lawyer first! maybe one has to file a claim against the state of germany to get the money - those procedures of "secured funds" differ from country to country.
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April 27, 2013, 01:40:50 PM
 #360

I'm commenting on something mentioned earlier in the thread:

Quote
It says that the confiscation and it's publication enables Tatverletzte (victims basically) to claim their funds through the legal system, which the prosecutor "strongly recommends". This can of course cost money, and there's no guarantee to get your money anyway.

basically its telling: the prosecutors have secured the money of the german bank account. it stays with the prosecutor until the procedure is finished. it can only be withdrawn by the owners by filing a civil lawsuit in germany.


Caution! I did not say that for claiming the money Hausdorf has to be sued. check with your german lawyer first! maybe one has to file a claim against the state of germany to get the money - those procedures of "secured funds" differ from country to country.

First off: The prosectutor in any jurisdiction usually is pretty well paid, and he's also on top of the 'power structure', which means basically he's the biggest dog in the yard, and can do whatever he feels like. He/it has no incentive to 'play nice' or to 'care for customers' in any cases whatsoever. This is the current system we're dealing with. As a matter of fact, anybody can become victim to confiscation of funds, if some entity in power decides that something must be investigated. It need not even be a legit case, but heck - we keep all those millions of euros frozen 'just in case'. Basically forcing everybody involved to follow the will of the prosecutor. In such a system there's no freedom. Freedom is when you can manage and control your own money, and have nobody confiscate them.

That's where bitcoin is great. Now, there's probably a lot of small time investors that had money in bitcoin-24.com, and the prosecutors are telling these people to file a law suit ? Basically, if you're owed 500 EUR, then only visiting a lawyers office are probably going to set you back the same amount.

In reality the 'it can only be withdrawn by the owners by filing a civil lawsuit in germany' is extortion. It's the biggest bully in the schoolyard saying, yeah - you can have your candy if you pay me 100 dollars, then holding the candy up high out of reach asking for an amount that no kid can pay.

From the looks of it, it appears to me that Simon got in deep without the proper paperwork, and now he's inside the bureacracy machine, that will just do it's work, and they (prosecutor) can basically do anything they want, and more often than not - they say they do something because of a certain reason, while the true reason is something else entirely. And more often than not, even if there's been no crime - they (the prosecutor) will still be able to find something to charge you for.

I would advise everyone to accept bitcoins for work they do, and use bitcoins online and in brick and mortar stores, and using the traditional banking system as little as possible. Eventually, if enough people do this, we will have a real impact, and we will be helping Satoshi reaching his original goal.

I would've loved to see the attack on any bank that for no apparent reason shut down the bank accounts of high profile politicians, or the son or the daughter or the prosecutor himself. I can't see any prosecutor accepting something like that..

It's all about being the biggest dog, and at the moment, we're feeding the biggest dog.
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