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Author Topic: Bitcoin-24.com matching engine seems broken, site down.  (Read 63600 times)
dscotese
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April 29, 2013, 10:08:18 PM
 #421

The transaction formy BTC was received on blockchain.info an hour and 15 minutes ago and has a 0.0005 BTC fee, but 6 blocks have been solved without any of them containing the transaction.  I guess Simon's client has yet to re-broadcast it since 50BTC didn't pick it up the first time.

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kripto
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April 30, 2013, 03:46:55 PM
 #422

I have some fiat money in the bitcoin-24 account, but just 4 days before the site went down, I sent a slightly bigger sum, and those money are not visible in my account. Where are those money ? Can I perform a charge back with my bank ? Since the money never arrived in my bitcoin-24 account ?

Is there anyone else in the same situation ?

I had exactly the same situation. I did an official funds transfer recall due to technical reason (there are only three possibilities: technical, fraud and double payment or something... I thought technical was the right one as the exchange was not operational any more) at my bank but Simon's bank refused to go through with it. All they said was "Rejected due to legal reasons!". So, I think there is nothing I can do without involving my layer but that would imply accusing Simon of fraud which is not what happened in my opinion.

At least people are getting their BTC back so it seems Simon is trying to do what he can.

I believe psychopathic banking cartel will fight the future with all means available, but ultimately they will go the way music and movies industry went...
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April 30, 2013, 04:19:11 PM
 #423


I had exactly the same situation. I did an official funds transfer recall due to technical reason (there are only three possibilities: technical, fraud and double payment or something... I thought technical was the right one as the exchange was not operational any more) at my bank but Simon's bank refused to go through with it. All they said was "Rejected due to legal reasons!". So, I think there is nothing I can do without involving my layer but that would imply accusing Simon of fraud which is not what happened in my opinion.

At least people are getting their BTC back so it seems Simon is trying to do what he can.

By now i strongly recommend do not claim anything through a lawyer! Simons lawyers are working to release the fiat currencies now, but give them some time. It's almost weekend here in germany due to that holiday tomorrow, so don't expect anything before the next week! State prosecutors still hold their hands upon the seized accounts, getting your lawyer involved now won't speed up anything!

Its highly likely you will have to identify yourself before you can withdraw your fiat so the state prosecutors see this isn't a big money laudering machine and the majority of the users are honest ppl.
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April 30, 2013, 06:09:20 PM
 #424


I had exactly the same situation. I did an official funds transfer recall due to technical reason (there are only three possibilities: technical, fraud and double payment or something... I thought technical was the right one as the exchange was not operational any more) at my bank but Simon's bank refused to go through with it. All they said was "Rejected due to legal reasons!". So, I think there is nothing I can do without involving my layer but that would imply accusing Simon of fraud which is not what happened in my opinion.

At least people are getting their BTC back so it seems Simon is trying to do what he can.

By now i strongly recommend do not claim anything through a lawyer! Simons lawyers are working to release the fiat currencies now, but give them some time. It's almost weekend here in germany due to that holiday tomorrow, so don't expect anything before the next week! State prosecutors still hold their hands upon the seized accounts, getting your lawyer involved now won't speed up anything!

Its highly likely you will have to identify yourself before you can withdraw your fiat so the state prosecutors see this isn't a big money laudering machine and the majority of the users are honest ppl.

Don't worry. Maybe I wasn't clear but I have no intention of suing Simon.
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May 01, 2013, 01:51:02 AM
 #425

I am in same situation as somebody mentioned a bit higher - I sent money to german account (first BTC purchase), then the next day site went down .... bad luck Sad
And now I don't see it in my account, I have zero balance there.

I've not lost much, though missing the ~ 50 EUR/BTC opportunities to buy BTC while it was cheap (as the whole exchange was offline) sort of annoys me more than the financial loss.

I guess all those late payments were never processed, so perhaps once (if) the money gets back into Simon's hands, perhaps he can just sent those unprocessed payments back to whatever account they came from without actually trying to find out which site account they were intended for.

As for starting to return all BTC's - I see this as a bit double edged move - it will surely please BTC holders and return some level of trust, but in the end can be quite risky and (especially by fiat holders) seen as "prefferring some of the creditors", which is probably a criminal offense by german law (I don't know it in detail, but I guess this would be similar in most of the EU) if the thing would end up by EUR being lost and the prosecutor would prove that Simon knew/should have known/should have suspected that the EUR would be lost.

But I hope Simon knows what he is doing, so perhaps there is some chance to get the EUR back at some day ....

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May 01, 2013, 02:19:56 AM
 #426

But I hope Simon knows what he is doing, so perhaps there is some chance to get the EUR back at some day ....

No he doesn't. And that's why the trouble came in the first place. Now, if he can have a team assist him, that's another matter entirely. I haven't looked deep into it, but I think there's some license requirements set forth by Bafin (Federal Financial Supervisory Authority), as to my knowledge, bitcoins are classified as some kind of foreign currency.  To get such a license, I think the only smart thing is to lawyer up, so you have some bulldozers (legal suits) that can plough their way through the German bureaucracy. Doing something like that alone for an inexperienced guy - not going to happen.

I cross my fingers and hope for the best for everyone involved. Personally I don't have anything at stake, but I think it's a shame for the bitcoin community that this is happening.
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May 01, 2013, 07:23:20 AM
 #427

I hope it resumes trading  Cry

singula
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May 01, 2013, 08:38:35 AM
 #428

I've thought that bitcoin is officially classified as a commodity (i.e. like gold, wheat, petrol, ....) and not as a currency (but traders in commodities still need to meet some criteria, though not as strict as a bank license), but I guess that formal classification of bitcoin may differ from country to country.

As for resuming the trading - I guess Simon's reputation god pretty badly damaged by the bugs in the trading engine, so I fear many people would just pull out the money once they get the chance and seek some other exchange for further trading (without bugs Smiley.

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May 01, 2013, 09:35:09 AM
 #429

But I hope Simon knows what he is doing, so perhaps there is some chance to get the EUR back at some day ....
No he doesn't. And that's why the trouble came in the first place. Now, if he can have a team assist him, that's another matter entirely. I haven't looked deep into it, but I think there's some license requirements set forth by Bafin (Federal Financial Supervisory Authority), as to my knowledge, bitcoins are classified as some kind of foreign currency.  To get such a license, I think the only smart thing is to lawyer up, so you have some bulldozers (legal suits) that can plough their way through the German bureaucracy. Doing something like that alone for an inexperienced guy - not going to happen.
I agree with this. Running a Bitcoin exchange is like setting up shop in the middle of a mine field right now. All the anti-money laundering laws and terrorism financing paranoia, plus the government and banking cartel hostility to Bitcoin. Given all that, it's highly likely we'll see Bitcoin exchange bank accounts being frozen and/or closed again and again.  The authorities aren't going to give up easily on this one.

I'd be extremely careful doing any exchanging or trading on any Bitcoin exchanges from now on. Get your money in and out and off the exchange again and out of the way as quickly as you can.

Anyone running an exchange needs at the least a good lawyer who is well up on the financial regulations. Trouble is I don't think there are many of these around.

trepper
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May 01, 2013, 12:00:09 PM
 #430


Please consider a donation to bitcoin-24.

Happy for you Smiley

Please consider to kiss his ass too for this magnificent mess...

You seem to forget that:
1/he ran during 1 month a trade engine he known it was bugged
2/despite he known his bank account could be frozen since one week, he didn't inform us and some people continue to deposit fiat in these black holes
3/he unilaterally decided to cancel all trade at an arbitrary date (and we can no more get acces to trade history to verify it)
4/he distribute brainlessly BTC, exposing himself to a worse legal conundrum and exposing fiat owners to lose all

May be Simon is more stupid and irresponsible than evil, but please, don't tell us it's a hero...

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RationalSpeculator
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May 01, 2013, 02:59:11 PM
 #431


Please consider a donation to bitcoin-24.

Happy for you Smiley

Please consider to kiss his ass too for this magnificent mess...

You seem to forget that:
1/he ran during 1 month a trade engine he known it was bugged
2/despite he known his bank account could be frozen since one week, he didn't inform us and some people continue to deposit fiat in these black holes
3/he unilaterally decided to cancel all trade at an arbitrary date (and we can no more get acces to trade history to verify it)
4/he distribute brainlessly BTC, exposing himself to a worse legal conundrum and exposing fiat owners to lose all

May be Simon is more stupid and irresponsible than evil, but please, don't tell us it's a hero...

Where did I say he is a hero?

1/he ran during 1 month a trade engine he known it was bugged
What should he have done instead?

2/despite he known his bank account could be frozen since one week, he didn't inform us and some people continue to deposit fiat in these black holes
His other bank account in Poland was still open, right?

3/he unilaterally decided to cancel all trade at an arbitrary date (and we can no more get acces to trade history to verify it)
What should he have done instead?

4/he distribute brainlessly BTC, exposing himself to a worse legal conundrum and exposing fiat owners to lose all
What should he have done instead?

You say he is stupid and irresponsible. I feel angry with you  Angry

Who was the one deciding to give money to him, and is not taking any responsiblilty here?
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May 01, 2013, 05:35:23 PM
 #432



1/he ran during 1 month a trade engine he known it was bugged
What should he have done instead?

1/Inform users
2/Stop the service until it's fixed

Quote from: RationalSpeculator
2/despite he known his bank account could be frozen since one week, he didn't inform us and some people continue to deposit fiat in these black holes
His other bank account in Poland was still open, right?

Sophism...
Don't forget he omitted to inform anyone about the serious probem he already had with its german account, leaving new users deposit money on a presumably compromised polish account.

Quote from: RationalSpeculator
3/he unilaterally decided to cancel all trade at an arbitrary date (and we can no more get acces to trade history to verify it)
What should he have done instead?

Give us acces to the trade history, for example...


Quote from: RationalSpeculator
4/he distribute brainlessly BTC, exposing himself to a worse legal conundrum and exposing fiat owners to lose all
What should he have done instead?

To refrain himself to play the good guy at the expense of all fiat owners...

Quote from: RationalSpeculator
You say he is stupid and irresponsible. I feel angry with you  Angry

Who was the one deciding to give money to him, and is not taking any responsiblilty here?

1/ I withdrawn all my bitcoin but 2btc from btc24 one week before, reading more and more claim of wrong transactions on the chatbox (notwithstanding the non sense spike trade who affect the market place every 8-12h)
2/ Which kind of responsability do I not take here?
It's Simon that owes me the 220€ from the 2 bitcoin I sold on 04/11, when his engine was already buggy enough to not execute the btc buy order I placed next at 56€.

I did not lose that much, but I have less reason than you to be affected by the Stockholm syndrome  Undecided
 

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simplydt
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May 01, 2013, 07:10:00 PM
 #433

^^

I am sorry but i have to concur he was VERY irresponsible. How anyone can be angry with people who stand by that point is beyond me... Even if I get all my fiat back, that does not change the fact he ignored the laws in the countries he was operating in.
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May 01, 2013, 08:03:31 PM
 #434

I just received an email from Bitcoin-24 stating:

"Today we have received your Bank-Transfer to Bitcoin-24 ..."

... and the amount in EUR was correct as well.

Maybe things are starting to look a little better.
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May 02, 2013, 04:23:45 AM
 #435



1/he ran during 1 month a trade engine he known it was bugged
What should he have done instead?

1/Inform users
2/Stop the service until it's fixed

I think that's an unrealistic expectation. I think it would be unwise to inform all users and shutdown the exchange, because a bug is discovered, a bug which can still be corrected without anyone losing anything.

And indeed, no one lost any money due to the bug, so I don't see an act of irresponsibility here. I think he did the responsible thing to keep the exchange online as long as a bug can still be corrected manually.

And he did the responsible thing to close the exchange the moment the bug caused harm, and reversed all the trades.

At that point I think he made a communication error by not informing the clients immediately that the shutdown of the website was also due to a trading bug. This caused people to get that info second hand which confused things unnecessarily.  


Quote from: RationalSpeculator
2/despite he known his bank account could be frozen since one week, he didn't inform us and some people continue to deposit fiat in these black holes
His other bank account in Poland was still open, right?

Sophism...
Don't forget he omitted to inform anyone about the serious probem he already had with its german account, leaving new users deposit money on a presumably compromised polish account.

How am I using sophism?

True, he did not inform anyone about the german account being frozen. However, to my knowledge, he changed the bank account immediately to the polish one, so no money was ever dumped into a black whole with his knowledge. You say that the Polish bank account was compromised at that point. But he did not know that. In the past it happened before that bank accounts were closed of him and many other exchanges, simply changing bank account always solved the problem, up until now.

I do agree he has been acting irresponsibly by doing cash withdrawals from that german bank account and not doing proper client identification which caused the freeze.  


Quote from: RationalSpeculator
3/he unilaterally decided to cancel all trade at an arbitrary date (and we can no more get acces to trade history to verify it)
What should he have done instead?

Give us acces to the trade history, for example...

Shutting down a website comes with having limited or no access to the website. Restoring history information while removing trade options takes time.  If over time he restores trade history, this criticism can be removed. I see no proof of stupidty (which is not a criticism but an insult) or irresponsibility here. However, poor communication I agree with as showing balances and trade history in times of uncertainty is very important communication that was, and indeed still is, not given in a timely manner.


Quote from: RationalSpeculator
4/he distribute brainlessly BTC, exposing himself to a worse legal conundrum and exposing fiat owners to lose all
What should he have done instead?

To refrain himself to play the good guy at the expense of all fiat owners...

I don't see how playing the good guy is a criticism. That's what he should do.  'at the expense of fiat owners', I disagree with.

You are the one trying to cover your loses at the expense of the btc holders. And you are being the bad guy in the process, acting abusively.

Have you taken legal action against Simon/btc24?


Quote from: RationalSpeculator
Who was the one deciding to give money to him, and is not taking any responsiblilty here?

1/ I withdrawn all my bitcoin but 2btc from btc24 one week before, reading more and more claim of wrong transactions on the chatbox (notwithstanding the non sense spike trade who affect the market place every 8-12h)
2/ Which kind of responsability do I not take here?
It's Simon that owes me the 220€ from the 2 bitcoin I sold on 04/11, when his engine was already buggy enough to not execute the btc buy order I placed next at 56€.

You are not taking responsibility for your own actions because it is your job to do due diligence before entrusting someone with your money. If you had done due diligence you would have known from the start that this exchange was a one man operation not taking the laws too serious, offering poor customer/communication support. I knew that because he barely replied to any emails from the start. He did not ask any identification in contrast to all the other exchanges. I was not aware that he was doing cash withdrawals from that german bank account but even if I knew it would not have been a problem for me, as I was also naif about money laundering laws. I chose to proceed because of the many positive things I saw. I was acting irresponsibly with my money, and so was Simon with his business, and so were you with your money.

I learned a lesson and am acting more responsible with my money today, diversifying my risk over different exchanges and looking more closely if they abide to the laws or not. I'm not sure you learned anything though as for that you need to take responsiblity for your own actions first.


I did not lose that much, but I have less reason than you to be affected by the Stockholm syndrome  Undecided

If I am not abused, I cannot suffer from a stockholm syndrome. How did Simon abuse me?

My request for donations to btc holders is because Simon earned that by successfully giving the btc back. I will do the same when I get my fiat back.  

Have you ever donated to btc24 when you were using the service? As you know that's the business model to pay among others for technical and legal support...
I suspect that you have been taking from him, have not giving any value back, and on top of that are abusing him when his service encounters severe problems.

You have barely any money in this. I suspect you are taking the opportunity to abuse and falsely accuse people who are in a difficult position. (I could be wrong.)

Do you experience pleasure when posting? (This might be an indication you are enjoying hurting people.) Have you bullied other people in the past that were in a weak position? If yes, what makes you think you are not doing the same here?

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May 02, 2013, 04:37:21 AM
 #436

^^

I am sorry but i have to concur he was VERY irresponsible. How anyone can be angry with people who stand by that point is beyond me... Even if I get all my fiat back, that does not change the fact he ignored the laws in the countries he was operating in.

I feel angry with Trepper because he is insulting Simon by calling him 'stupid', while at the same time accusing me of stockholm syndrome, implying that Simon is an abuser.

While in fact Simon did not abuse anyone, while Trepper is insulting (=abusing) Simon. That makes me angry and rightfully so I believe.

You accuse him of irresponsibility, which I agree with, but you, and I, have been acting equally irresponsible, would you not say?
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May 02, 2013, 04:58:55 AM
 #437

I just received an email from Bitcoin-24 stating:

"Today we have received your Bank-Transfer to Bitcoin-24 ..."

... and the amount in EUR was correct as well.

Maybe things are starting to look a little better.
Me as well, I sent the money a day before the close, to the Polish account
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May 02, 2013, 07:57:49 AM
 #438

I suspect you are taking the opportunity to abuse and falsely accuse people who are in a difficult position. (I could be wrong.)

Indeed, you are wrong  Cheesy
I did not "accuse" any one, I was just noticing an indisputable fact: Simon has irresponsibly (if not stupidly) played with the money of others. As Madoff did...

Do you experience pleasure when posting? (This might be an indication you are enjoying hurting people.) Have you bullied other people in the past that were in a weak position? If yes, what makes you think you are not doing the same here?

Wow!
Is your quick psychological profiling a manifestation of the Stockholm syndrome or just a "long, intimidating, immense and rational derangement of all the senses" inducted by the recent events?
I don't know, but...

First, as my post history attests, I must enjoy less than you posting here  Wink.

Second, notwithstanding your intense happyness to get your btc back, could you consider the fact that it's not me, who have been stolen and just wrote I have been, but Simon who bullied everyone, doing what he wanted with our money.

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May 02, 2013, 08:49:51 AM
 #439

I suspect you are taking the opportunity to abuse and falsely accuse people who are in a difficult position. (I could be wrong.)

Indeed, you are wrong  Cheesy
I did not "accuse" any one, I was just noticing an indisputable fact: Simon has irresponsibly (if not stupidly) played with the money of others. As Madoff did...

Do you experience pleasure when posting? (This might be an indication you are enjoying hurting people.) Have you bullied other people in the past that were in a weak position? If yes, what makes you think you are not doing the same here?

Wow!
Is your quick psychological profiling a manifestation of the Stockholm syndrome or just a "long, intimidating, immense and rational derangement of all the senses" inducted by the recent events?
I don't know, but...

First, as my post history attests, I must enjoy less than you posting here  Wink.

Second, notwithstanding your intense happyness to get your btc back, could you consider the fact that it's not me, who have been stolen and just wrote I have been, but Simon who bullied everyone, doing what he wanted with our money.


I feel even more anger now. I'm going to have to ignore you. I'm sorry.
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May 02, 2013, 09:03:16 AM
 #440


I feel even more anger now. I'm going to have to ignore you. I'm sorry.
Cry
In fact, I think I can live with it.

However, have you ever considered an anger management therapy?

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