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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 21328629 times)
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nmersulypnem
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June 01, 2013, 03:02:12 PM
 #12301

Currency trading on MtGox...
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June 01, 2013, 03:02:39 PM
 #12302

nmersulypnem
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June 01, 2013, 03:08:54 PM
 #12303

Wallzilla killed the volume.

I'm really curious as to why there's a wall in many currencies.

Gox has only one market for all currencies.  The bids/asks in any given currency are converted to show in all other currencies, with a exchange fee built in.  The fee does not go to Gox, since they ironically are not licensed to exchange between various fiat currencies. Instead the fee goes to their bank, which does the actual fiat exchange.

The upshot is that if you place a bid in USD it shows up in Pounds, Euros, Baht, whatever else as well.

Source: MagicalTux in irc a few weeks ago.






That's how it works. It's in their FAQ, BTW


That´s not right.
Every currency has its own market on Gox.
Look at the Canadian Dollar chart or at the polish Zloty at Gox and compare it with the USD,GBP or EUR chart.
Every market has another volume.

Think before you type.

First, Bitcycle told you he is quoting Karpeles from IRC, so you should give him some credit.

Secondly, I'm telling you to check it in Gox's FAQ

Thirdly, and most important, look at the different currencies at Gox. You will see that if there was independent ask/bids for every currency, there would be no liquidity in any market except the USD. Then, check the walls. Isn't it strange for you that you have walls of the same proportion in every currency?

And finally, check MtGox's FAQ:

Quote
Q. Do you keep independent ask/bid tables for different currencies?

A. No, ask/bid tables for different currencies are not independent. All currencies are relative to whichever currency has the highest volume, which is based on said currencies current market price in bitcoin. Every trade is in one pool and in fact, not are not separate currency markets. This allows users the added benefit of trading in "the greater market" -in currencies they understand- while not limiting them to smaller currency markets.

For example, if a buy order for bitcoins is placed in EUR, the order can be executed against another user selling bitcoins in any currency and not necessarily only against another user selling bitcoins in EUR.

EDIT: well, niothor was quicker than me Wink




Actually, the FAQ contradicts itself.  Based on the answer to this question...

Q. Are there any other fees charged when trading in multi-currency?

A. No. However, please be advised that there is a 2.5% premium when a trade involves orders in different currencies.  However, this is not a separate charge. It is already reflected in the price you see.


Based on that it looks like there are indeed separate order books, but that all trades are reflected on other currency book (minus a 2.5% currency commission - which quite frankly kills the competitiveness of the order).  So the moral of the story is that it's best to trade on the busiest currency.  If you trade in Thai Bhat, don't expect to get your orders filled.

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June 01, 2013, 03:23:50 PM
 #12304

Actually, the FAQ contradicts itself.  Based on the answer to this question...

Q. Are there any other fees charged when trading in multi-currency?

A. No. However, please be advised that there is a 2.5% premium when a trade involves orders in different currencies.  However, this is not a separate charge. It is already reflected in the price you see.


Based on that it looks like there are indeed separate order books, but that all trades are reflected on other currency book (minus a 2.5% currency commission - which quite frankly kills the competitiveness of the order).  So the moral of the story is that it's best to trade on the busiest currency.  If you trade in Thai Bhat, don't expect to get your orders filled.

Bank fees.
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June 01, 2013, 03:35:51 PM
 #12305

Actually, the FAQ contradicts itself.  Based on the answer to this question...

Q. Are there any other fees charged when trading in multi-currency?

A. No. However, please be advised that there is a 2.5% premium when a trade involves orders in different currencies.  However, this is not a separate charge. It is already reflected in the price you see.


Based on that it looks like there are indeed separate order books, but that all trades are reflected on other currency book (minus a 2.5% currency commission - which quite frankly kills the competitiveness of the order).  So the moral of the story is that it's best to trade on the busiest currency.  If you trade in Thai Bhat, don't expect to get your orders filled.

Bank fees.


That's way too high for a bank fee transaction, especially since MtGox is not actually doing any conversion until you cash out (and many opposite transactions will net out).  More likely, they are discouraging currency trading on their platform, and pocketing the fees.   Doing the math on the 8K wall for example, $127 / 1.3006 (EUR daily rate) * (1 - 2.5% commission) =  95.26 EUR (exactly where the EUR wall is).   This makes the wall 2.5% less competitive in any other currency, and much less likely to get hit than on the USD order book.
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June 01, 2013, 03:48:21 PM
 #12306

Actually, the FAQ contradicts itself.  Based on the answer to this question...

Q. Are there any other fees charged when trading in multi-currency?

A. No. However, please be advised that there is a 2.5% premium when a trade involves orders in different currencies.  However, this is not a separate charge. It is already reflected in the price you see.


Based on that it looks like there are indeed separate order books, but that all trades are reflected on other currency book (minus a 2.5% currency commission - which quite frankly kills the competitiveness of the order).  So the moral of the story is that it's best to trade on the busiest currency.  If you trade in Thai Bhat, don't expect to get your orders filled.

Bank fees.


That's way too high for a bank fee transaction, especially since MtGox is not actually doing any conversion until you cash out (and many opposite transactions will net out).  More likely, they are discouraging currency trading on their platform, and pocketing the fees.   Doing the math on the 8K wall for example, $127 / 1.3006 (EUR daily rate) * (1 - 2.5% commission) =  95.26 EUR (exactly where the EUR wall is).   This makes the wall 2.5% less competitive in any other currency, and much less likely to get hit than on the USD order book.

or bank fees. money goes out -> transfer fee, gets exchanged -> exchange fee, goes back in -> transfer fee, you buy BTC -> Gox fee. I can see it reaching 2.5%.
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June 01, 2013, 04:02:49 PM
 #12307

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June 01, 2013, 05:02:41 PM
 #12308

nmersulypnem
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June 01, 2013, 05:38:47 PM
 #12309

Actually, the FAQ contradicts itself.  Based on the answer to this question...

Q. Are there any other fees charged when trading in multi-currency?

A. No. However, please be advised that there is a 2.5% premium when a trade involves orders in different currencies.  However, this is not a separate charge. It is already reflected in the price you see.


Based on that it looks like there are indeed separate order books, but that all trades are reflected on other currency book (minus a 2.5% currency commission - which quite frankly kills the competitiveness of the order).  So the moral of the story is that it's best to trade on the busiest currency.  If you trade in Thai Bhat, don't expect to get your orders filled.

Bank fees.


That's way too high for a bank fee transaction, especially since MtGox is not actually doing any conversion until you cash out (and many opposite transactions will net out).  More likely, they are discouraging currency trading on their platform, and pocketing the fees.   Doing the math on the 8K wall for example, $127 / 1.3006 (EUR daily rate) * (1 - 2.5% commission) =  95.26 EUR (exactly where the EUR wall is).   This makes the wall 2.5% less competitive in any other currency, and much less likely to get hit than on the USD order book.

or bank fees. money goes out -> transfer fee, gets exchanged -> exchange fee, goes back in -> transfer fee, you buy BTC -> Gox fee. I can see it reaching 2.5%.


No, because MtGox doesn't actually make those conversions.  They just have one large account per currency and only need to transfer from one currency to another if the net currency shift drives one currency account too low.  I would say that, for the most part, they are almost never incurring any cost at all.  That 2.5% is all profit.  In any case, I would guess that it is often unlikely that any of the cross currency orders actually get filled since they are 2.5% below market (unless there's a persistent currency:BTC spread).
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June 01, 2013, 05:51:35 PM
 #12310

Actually, the FAQ contradicts itself.  Based on the answer to this question...

Q. Are there any other fees charged when trading in multi-currency?

A. No. However, please be advised that there is a 2.5% premium when a trade involves orders in different currencies.  However, this is not a separate charge. It is already reflected in the price you see.


Based on that it looks like there are indeed separate order books, but that all trades are reflected on other currency book (minus a 2.5% currency commission - which quite frankly kills the competitiveness of the order).  So the moral of the story is that it's best to trade on the busiest currency.  If you trade in Thai Bhat, don't expect to get your orders filled.

Bank fees.


That's way too high for a bank fee transaction, especially since MtGox is not actually doing any conversion until you cash out (and many opposite transactions will net out).  More likely, they are discouraging currency trading on their platform, and pocketing the fees.   Doing the math on the 8K wall for example, $127 / 1.3006 (EUR daily rate) * (1 - 2.5% commission) =  95.26 EUR (exactly where the EUR wall is).   This makes the wall 2.5% less competitive in any other currency, and much less likely to get hit than on the USD order book.

or bank fees. money goes out -> transfer fee, gets exchanged -> exchange fee, goes back in -> transfer fee, you buy BTC -> Gox fee. I can see it reaching 2.5%.


No, because MtGox doesn't actually make those conversions.  They just have one large account per currency and only need to transfer from one currency to another if the net currency shift drives one currency account too low.  I would say that, for the most part, they are almost never incurring any cost at all.  That 2.5% is all profit.  In any case, I would guess that it is often unlikely that any of the cross currency orders actually get filled since they are 2.5% below market (unless there's a persistent currency:BTC spread).

Technically they are not supposed to do fiat currency exchange. It might be they do not, in fact, move funds around with each operation. However, in case, say, some Gov agency forces them to do so, their expenses are covered by the 2.5% fee.

As you say, it will definitely discourage traders from opening cross currency orders, which makes gox's life easier. (don't think they would make much in cross currency fees)
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June 01, 2013, 06:00:14 PM
 #12311

BTC is so boring now. It's been b/w 110 and 130 for a month! Given the huge risks associated w/ BTC trading I'd expect equally huge returns. Not really worth it to trade anymore.
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June 01, 2013, 06:02:35 PM
 #12312

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June 01, 2013, 06:11:07 PM
 #12313

BTC is so boring now. It's been b/w 110 and 130 for a month! Given the huge risks associated w/ BTC trading I'd expect equally huge returns. Not really worth it to trade anymore.

There was likely going to be a big upward rally on the 25th, but the Libery Reserve incident killed it. I'm still not ruling out a large price movement in the short term.
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June 01, 2013, 06:13:36 PM
 #12314

There was likely going to be a big upward rally on the 25th, but the Libery Reserve incident killed it. I'm still not ruling out a large price movement in the short term.

and why do you think this/what is this based on?
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June 01, 2013, 06:17:03 PM
Last edit: June 01, 2013, 06:35:24 PM by Abandon
 #12315

There was likely going to be a big upward rally on the 25th, but the Libery Reserve incident killed it. I'm still not ruling out a large price movement in the short term.

and why do you think this/what is this based on?

If a market is bias upward, and the price breaks support without crashing significantly, then that means it's likely to rebound strongly.

Many bitcoin forecasters anticipated a large rally before the 25th, which was pushed down, and what's pushed down can hold a lot of unspent energy, like a coiled spring.
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June 01, 2013, 06:19:53 PM
 #12316

Meh... I would include the LR news as a non-event for the Bitcoin price.
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June 01, 2013, 06:29:24 PM
 #12317

Meh... I would include the LR news as a non-event for the Bitcoin price.

I saw it as an innocuous event, but I belatedly realized that others wouldn't, and that it was a time to sell and buy back lower. And if others thought the same as I, and if they thought others would act on this same knowledge, then all the more reason to sell, and that would only contribute to the downward pressure.

If a market is bias upward, and the price breaks support without crashing significantly, then that means it's likely to rebound strongly.

Many bitcoin forecasters anticipated a large rally before the 25th, which was pushed down, and what's pushed down can hold a lot of unspent energy, like a coiled spring
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June 01, 2013, 06:32:46 PM
 #12318

There was likely going to be a big upward rally on the 25th, but the Libery Reserve incident killed it. I'm still not ruling out a large price movement in the short term.

and why do you think this/what is this based on?

If a market is bias upward, and the price breaks support without crashing significantly, then that means it's likely to rebound strongly.

Many bitcoin forecasters anticipated a large rally before the 25th, and what's pushed down can hold a lot of unspent momentum.

Anyway the market is quiet since a while, everbody is waiting for the slightest move to buy or sell.

With 1M wall on the bearish exit, if it holds there is no other choice but to be bullish Cheesy
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June 01, 2013, 06:33:25 PM
 #12319

Meh... I would include the LR news as a non-event for the Bitcoin price.

Aghhh!1 Creepola!!!https://bitcointalk.org/useravatars/avatar_13296.gif (major fear: "wait, was it like that all the time & i just didn't notice?!")
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June 01, 2013, 06:34:10 PM
 #12320

Damnit you guys... you said to buy! Sad
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