Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[podyx]

^Yes, you have to open a channel and fund it. Like a gift card. You open it, you pre-fund it, and then you can spend it. You can not "top it off" later.

Oh wow, that's really bad...

Perhaps we see better alternatives in the future. Unless there's a way for the network to kinda sort out smaller payments into channels automatically.

[respawn2]

I think its important to investigate how things like LN could be beneficial.

It's also important to call a spade a spade. LN may solve some problems, but not even a fraction of the problems it claims to solve. No matter what I try to walk through - micropayments, your exchange/exchange thing - it always turns out there's a simpler solution which doesn't involve LN. LN might be many things, but a scaling solution it ain't.

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

^Yes, you have to open a channel and fund it. Like a gift card. You open it, you pre-fund it, and then you can spend it. You can not "top it off" later.

Oh wow, that's really bad...

Perhaps we see better alternatives in the future. Unless there's a way for the network to kinda sort out smaller payments into channels automatically.

I'm surprised you didn't know this already. I linked to the Hacker News review of LN not long ago. They hated it. 

[Ibian]

If it's that limited then why is it being pushed?

[respawn2]

If it's that limited then why is it being pushed?

This is not some sort of pure philosophical debate, people stand to gain or lose billions. Why is anything money-related being done? Probably money. Not that I'm above it, with that much at stake who knows what I'd do, but the answer is still money. Egos play into it, but that's about the same thing.

[Odalv]

If it's that limited then why is it being pushed?

This is not some sort of pure philosophical debate, people stand to gain or lose billions. Why is anything money-related being done? Probably money. Not that I'm above it, with that much at stake who knows what I'd do, but the answer is still money. Egos play into it, but that's about the same thing.

There are customers they pay for gods or services. There are merchants and they provide gods or services.  => Customer only pay. Merchant only accept bitcoins.

You as customer will be able to open only 1 channel with LN-PROVIDER to send bitcoins to 1,000,000 merchants.  Merchant will be ablle to open 1 channel with LN-PROVIDER to accept payments from ALL customers.

Can You understand now ?

[dumbfbrankings]

If it's that limited then why is it being pushed?

This is not some sort of pure philosophical debate, people stand to gain or lose billions. Why is anything money-related being done? Probably money. Not that I'm above it, with that much at stake who knows what I'd do, but the answer is still money. Egos play into it, but that's about the same thing.

There are customers they pay for gods or services. There are merchants and they provide gods or services.  => Customer only pay. Merchant only accept bitcoins.

You as customer will be able to open only 1 channel with LN-PROVIDER to send bitcoins to 1,000,000 merchants.  Merchant will be ablle to open 1 channel with LN-PROVIDER to accept payments from ALL customers.

Can You understand now ?

Turning a decentralized P2P cash system into a quasi-centralized Hub and Spoke clearing system.

I think I understand it now.

The only thing I don't understand is why the miners would destroy their own business.

[respawn2]

If it's that limited then why is it being pushed?

This is not some sort of pure philosophical debate, people stand to gain or lose billions. Why is anything money-related being done? Probably money. Not that I'm above it, with that much at stake who knows what I'd do, but the answer is still money. Egos play into it, but that's about the same thing.

There are customers they pay for gods or services. There are merchants and they provide gods or services.  => Customer only pay. Merchant only accept bitcoins.

You as customer will be able to open only 1 channel with LN-PROVIDER to send bitcoins to 1,000,000 merchants.  Merchant will be ablle to open 1 channel with LN-PROVIDER to accept payments from ALL customers.

Can You understand now ?

First I hear of this, sounds like bullshit to me. Walk me through? Who is this "LN-PROVIDER"? How does "LN-PROVIDER" transact with "1,000,000 merchants"?
Why is it that "Merchant will be ablle to open 1 channel with LN-PROVIDER to accept payments from ALL customers."

No really. I'm waiting.

[Odalv]

If it's that limited then why is it being pushed?

This is not some sort of pure philosophical debate, people stand to gain or lose billions. Why is anything money-related being done? Probably money. Not that I'm above it, with that much at stake who knows what I'd do, but the answer is still money. Egos play into it, but that's about the same thing.

There are customers they pay for gods or services. There are merchants and they provide gods or services.  => Customer only pay. Merchant only accept bitcoins.

You as customer will be able to open only 1 channel with LN-PROVIDER to send bitcoins to 1,000,000 merchants.  Merchant will be ablle to open 1 channel with LN-PROVIDER to accept payments from ALL customers.

Can You understand now ?

First I hear of this, sounds like bullshit to me. Walk me through? Who is this "LN-PROVIDER"? How does "LN-PROVIDER" transact with "1,000,000 merchants"?
Why is it that "Merchant will be ablle to open 1 channel with LN-PROVIDER to accept payments from ALL customers."

LN-Provider can be BitPay/PayPal/Google.  You will pay to LN-OPERATOR instantlly, LN-OPERATOR will notify merchant and later LN-OPERATOR will pay to merchanat sum of all payments at once.

[respawn2]

LN-Provider can be BitPay/PayPal/Google.

I'm not asking who it could be, I'm asking who it will be. As in the one LN-PROVIDER with "1,000,000 merchants." Or will there be competing "LN-PROVIDER[ s ]"with "1,000,000 merchants"? All of them with pre-funded channels to Hamburger Bob?

You will pay to LN-OPERATOR instantlly,

You mean as in one macro-payment, from my paycheck, so all my BTC goes to PayPal? Or every time I want to make a micro-payment?

LN-OPERATOR will notify merchant and later LN-OPERATOR will pay to merchanat sum of all payments at once.

You've just explained how pre-funded credit cards work, what does this have to do with Bitcoin?

[Elwar]

an hour and 19 minutes since the last block. They are averaging 23 minutes per block and they're all full.

this will cause the price to slump, which will kick more hashpower off the networks, causing further backlogs and higher fees in a viscous feedback loop. I told you bastards this would happen.

it's the Fullblocalypse!!

When is this feedback loop supposed to happen? I just had a tx go through fine and tx fees are only ~70 sat per byte or around 11 USD pennies per tx.


https://bitcoinfees.21.co/

Is this what the end of the world looks like? 11 cents to send a tx? What sort of timeframe are we dealing with where fees start spiraling out of control?

Remember when yous guise would tell him to calm down, it's only 25 sat/byte... yeah, me too.

Well, we're only up about 300% in a few months, not bad.

Prolly won't go much higher... as others have said, we'll just bleed use cases and users to somewhere else. Good thing utility and adoption has nothing to do with market value.

Segwit in April oughtta help tho.

Bullish!

[respawn2]

Please Odalv, I want to learn. This is all so new and exciting, help me understand!

No really. I'm waiting.

Sucks how people make up ludicrous, untenable bullshit up on the spot, and then just disappear. *puff!* And for what?
Why do it? Do people never call you on your shit, Odalv?

[Odalv]

LN-Provider can be BitPay/PayPal/Google.

I'm not asking who it could be, I'm asking who it will be. As in the one LN-PROVIDER with "1,000,000 merchants." Or will there be competing "LN-PROVIDER[ s ]"with "1,000,000 merchants"? All of them with pre-funded channels to Hamburger Bob?

You will pay to LN-OPERATOR instantlly,

You mean as in one macro-payment, from my paycheck, so all my BTC goes to PayPal? Or every time I want to make a micro-payment?

LN-OPERATOR will notify merchant and later LN-OPERATOR will pay to merchanat sum of all payments at once.

You've just explained how pre-funded credit cards work, what does this have to do with Bitcoin?

Are you Lambie ?
What if there is 1000 LN-OPERATORS. It is same as single 1.  999 others is same as other merchants to you AS CUSTOMER of your ONE LN-OPERATOR you choose.

Yes you have SINGLE pre-funded credit card and with this LN-CHANNEL you can pay to everybody who accepts paymetns from your operator. (or other co-operator)

[Odalv]

LN-Provider can be BitPay/PayPal/Google.

I'm not asking who it could be, I'm asking who it will be. As in the one LN-PROVIDER with "1,000,000 merchants." Or will there be competing "LN-PROVIDER[ s ]"with "1,000,000 merchants"? All of them with pre-funded channels to Hamburger Bob?

You've just explained how pre-funded credit cards work, what does this have to do with Bitcoin?

I do not know who will be the first or who will be succesfull LN-Operator.
LN will enable -> customer to pay instantlly to some OPERATOR (payment in miliseconds)
And then OPERATOR will do everything for you just to make money and he will make payment to merchant (even in fiat if merchant wishes)

:-)

[respawn2]

LN-Provider can be BitPay/PayPal/Google.

I'm not asking who it could be, I'm asking who it will be. As in the one LN-PROVIDER with "1,000,000 merchants." Or will there be competing "LN-PROVIDER[ s ]"with "1,000,000 merchants"? All of them with pre-funded channels to Hamburger Bob?

You will pay to LN-OPERATOR instantlly,

You mean as in one macro-payment, from my paycheck, so all my BTC goes to PayPal? Or every time I want to make a micro-payment?

LN-OPERATOR will notify merchant and later LN-OPERATOR will pay to merchanat sum of all payments at once.

You've just explained how pre-funded credit cards work, what does this have to do with Bitcoin?

Are you Lambie ?
What if there is 1000 LN-OPERATORS. It is same as single 1.

No, Odlav, it's not. 1000 LN-OPERATORS would need to have 1000 channels open and funded, to Hamburger Bob. Assuming Hamburger Bob does $2k worth of business a day, and gets his BTC from PayPal once a month, and further assuming that Hamburger Bob reups 10 times a month (with unidirectional [positive] cash flow window being 3 days, that's ... (3days * $2,000 + $4000_{to make sure the channel doesn't run dry on busy days}) * 1000different LLN-OPERATORS.

So the difference between $10,000 sitting in an open channel and $10,000,000 sitting in 1000 open channels. Just to serve Hamburger Bob, who don't do more than $2k worth of business a day.
allow me to quote:

Can You understand now ?

[JayJuanGee]

[edited out]

You little cockroach piece of sh!t ... who are you working for??? Who is paying you to do propaganda?  
Isn't it a little odd that you write walls of text like you are some paid blogger or some sh!t???

You don't really provide any insider information... You just take a subject and make dough with it and stretching and smashing it till its elasticity makes no sense! ... You are like a dog spinning around its own tail!!!
Stop the damn propaganda and give some concrete numbers for people to crunch if you flirt with ideas of ~400$ for those bears and shills to admire! That is just impossible!!! It would be... Those coins would be an easy snatch of cheap easy profits... Just one of those situations we saw 1 block before the halving when someone took a huge dump just to buy cheap coins for 1 more week. Because the price will have a judgement day when it won't be able to manipulate it like that again. And that last sentence being said... What profits in bitcoin a trader did when it was 200-300$ and it was moving 50$ .. compared to 600-700$ when it moves 20-30$ ... because percentage wise its just not the same thing! They are not making the same money anymore and they are feeling left out and losing profits!

If you actually knew how to read or at least took some time to attempt to comprehend some of my posts in this thread (and other posts on this forum), you would likely come to realize that I provide sufficient numbers and probability predictions to the extent reasonable to make my points... Yeah, sometimes they could be made more precisely or concisely, but I make my own choices regarding how much time and effort to put into posts (in other words, my discretion).

  I have  never claimed to have any kind of insider information, yet sometimes I might claim to have a perspective that is different from other perspectives.  Anyhow, I am just attempting to provide my understanding of facts, logic and opinions based on my looking at various aspects of the BTC market (likely no different from any other genuine and non-troll poster).

And I still believe you are a paid blogger troll... Who the hell writes this much on a daily basis just to keep the dogs quite at bay and not barking at Bears&Shills.Co!!!

You can believe whatever the fuck you want regarding what is a troll, and surely some folks (even real genuine folks) are ready, willing and able to spend more time on bitcoin than others...   Further, if you attempt to look at content of posts and to comprehend the content of those posts, then maybe you would come to more sound conclusions in your apparent emotional and probably just fake rants, possibly?  I have probably said enough because I am definitely having my doubts, at this time, about whether you are either capable or willing to contribute meaningful substance to this thread.

[respawn2]

LN-Provider can be BitPay/PayPal/Google.

I'm not asking who it could be, I'm asking who it will be. As in the one LN-PROVIDER with "1,000,000 merchants." Or will there be competing "LN-PROVIDER[ s ]"with "1,000,000 merchants"? All of them with pre-funded channels to Hamburger Bob?

You've just explained how pre-funded credit cards work, what does this have to do with Bitcoin?

I do not know who will be the first or who will be succesfull LN-Operator.
LN will enable -> customer to pay instantlly to some OPERATOR (payment in miliseconds)
And then OPERATOR will do everything for you just to make money and he will make payment to merchant (even in fiat if merchant wishes)

:-)

We do not need LN for this. This is how all credit cards work, now. Today.
Only with ordinary credit cards, I don't have to pay Visa upfront. Visa lets me buy shit and *then* bills me.
So I can already do what you want LN to do today, wit fiat.

Can You understand now ?

I can also go and get one of those BTC Debit Cards, and make as many off-chain transactions as the VISA network could handle. Without LN-Operator. No fuss, no muss.

Can You understand now ?

[Odalv]

So the difference between $10,000 sitting in an open channel and $10,000,000 sitting in 1000 open channels. Just to serve Hamburger Bob, who don't do more than $2k worth of business a day.
allow me to quote:

Can You understand now ?

You know how many you spend for week or month. It is your bitcoin alocated. You can allocate as much as you wish. You will gain fast and cheap transactions. If you do not like then do not use.

LN-Provider will offer services: e.g. you can pay in this restaurants, buy in this shops ...

LN-Provider will offer: We cooperate with 1,000-1,000,000 other LN-Providers. It is not your problem, we will do it for you.

[respawn2]

Please read the bold print above.

[Odalv]

LN-Provider can be BitPay/PayPal/Google.

I'm not asking who it could be, I'm asking who it will be. As in the one LN-PROVIDER with "1,000,000 merchants." Or will there be competing "LN-PROVIDER[ s ]"with "1,000,000 merchants"? All of them with pre-funded channels to Hamburger Bob?

You've just explained how pre-funded credit cards work, what does this have to do with Bitcoin?

I do not know who will be the first or who will be succesfull LN-Operator.
LN will enable -> customer to pay instantlly to some OPERATOR (payment in miliseconds)
And then OPERATOR will do everything for you just to make money and he will make payment to merchant (even in fiat if merchant wishes)

:-)

We do not need LN for this. This is how all credit cards work, now. Today.
Only with ordinary credit cards, I don't have to pay Visa upfront. Visa lets me buy shit and *then* bills me.
So I can already do what you want LN to do today, wit fiat.

Can You understand now ?

I can also go and get one of those BTC Debit Cards, and make as many off-chain transactions as the VISA network could handle. Without LN-Operator. No fuss, no muss.

Can You understand now ?

I agree with you. Card works fine. I'm explaining you how bitcoin will do the same better.