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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 21529219 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (142 posts by 32 users deleted.)
stereotype
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May 23, 2017, 01:08:25 PM

Korea BTC @$2800 currently ......

https://www.bithumb.com/EN/

Nice. I just moved to Korea. Now I just need a Korean bank account.
On camp, or standard city residential?

Looks like they are living the Bitcoin buzz, like it was for other major cities in 2013. Nice to experience if you can. 
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May 23, 2017, 01:13:11 PM
Last edit: May 23, 2017, 01:47:16 PM by empowering



Ok yeah I see what you mean.

I'll try Bitstamp then, it's not really for the best to stay on a trading platform with such problems xD

It's not that I am vouching for Bitstamp either, considering the risks any and all trading platforms present. I am just talking about my personal experience/incidents or lack thereof.

Can you tell how many BTC were bought/sold in that huge spike to 2082€? According to the order books, it should take a massive order of almost 2000BTC to reach this price now. According to the charts, that did not happen (the volume in those spikes was about 100BTC). Therefore it was not a massive bought order but some kind of bug/error in their API. Dont you think so?


That does seem to be a likely explanation. Looking at the 5m chart, there seem to be two separate spikes above 2000Eur but both with rather low volume (100BTC)

Of course it was a "small" order that produced that spike BECAUSE IT BYPASSED THE ORDER BOOK.

But the problem is not in the API:


XBT/EUR

    Last
    €1,894.680
    High
    €2,082.958

    Low
    €1,757.400
    24 Hour Volume
    25,936.77
    Weighted Avg
    €1,879.344

There was real coins being bought at that price... but not from me or others even if we had lower sell limit orders in place way before that spike happenned. (days).

So the question is... who was the fortunate guy that sold them at that high price BYPASSING THE ORDER BOOK?

I was watching Kraken at that time.  I was waiting in a queue for two hours and had very little to do except keep refreshing all my coin charts, including the Kraken app.  I did not see that price reached or any unusual fluctuations in the price.  I do not believe it was real, or if it was it must have been so momentary that no other prices were hit in between.  A fat-fingered buyer perhaps?  Someone who thought they were trading USD instead of EUR??

It could be a fat finger or most probably a short squeeze. That doesn't matter... the price reached 2082€ (as you can see on kraken site itself as high price today), I had sell limit orders placed on the ORDER BOOK from several days ago at 19XX€ which should have been honored. The price cannot reach higher without honoring orders in the order book. It's as simple as that.

Even if the site became unusable during that spike, orders already in the order book BEFORE the fat-finger/short squeeze must be honored (My orders were there from several days ago). YOu can even halt the trading for some issue, but the price cannot get higher without honoring previous lower orders. That's how an order book (should) works.


This is an old problem ... I am guessing that what has happened is..


That your stop is in fact converted into a limit order - whereby your stop and limit are at the same (or very close) price.


If your stop-loss order was converted to a limit order, and if the exchange was unable to sell at that price as the price had already dropped through that level,  then your order would not get executed...


Why- would an exchange convert your stop into a stop limit order vs a market order ?
=
Basically with a "straight" stop-loss order scenario (which executes as a market order), when the price reaches a predetermined level, the order converts into a market order - n this means the exchange will sell at the best price available.

The problem is, it could be well below the trigger price if there are no other bids on the books.


If there are two stop orders at the same price sitting on an exchange,  priority goes to the one that was placed first.  

So if X is trading at $30.75, and there are two stop market orders at $30.00, when price comes down and triggers the stops, the one that was placed first will get filled first.

But if there are also stop limit orders at the same price. Stop limit orders at the same price as a stop order will get priority, and will be filled first, even if they were placed after the stop order.  

In fact, stop limit orders below the price of stop market order can still get priority over a stop order.

 By placing a stop order you are accepting the possibility of getting filled “where the market is trading”. But with a stop limit order, you are only willing to accept a fill at a specific price or better   if stop and limit are too far apart - the price can fly through your limit price and there is no longer liquidity enough in your price range and therefore the limit order is not triggered .  

When price is falling fast which triggers a $30.00 stop order, turning it into a market order, then continues to $29.98 before filling that market order, a stop limit at $29.98 will get filled first. And if there is no more liquidity at that price and it drops to $29.00 before filling the market (formerly stop) order, then limit orders at $29.00 will also get priority

 in a thin or very fast market, your stop order can trigger, drop significantly and stay open, while stop limit orders get filled in front of it.

Guessing a variation of this is what happened in your case

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May 23, 2017, 01:13:48 PM

Nice. I just moved to Korea. Now I just need a Korean bank account.

North or South? Bitcoin looks like the coming thing in the North as they're being blamed for the ransomware wave. You could end up with your own 1 room shack and nylon safari suit.
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May 23, 2017, 01:22:58 PM

Forgot I had a load of dogecoins.

Just traded them for 4.6 bitcoin.

That's a pretty good day

Huh? how many DGC is that?


3.3million roughly
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May 23, 2017, 01:46:19 PM

I hate this stagnation, and it had been only a few hours xD

But that's why I can't become a trader. You need steel nerves to handle the movements of the market like this.
Me I'm just a poor lonesome holder.
At least you're sure you don't lose money, all you lose is capitalization!
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May 23, 2017, 02:03:07 PM


This is an old problem ... I am guessing that what has happened is..


That your stop is in fact converted into a limit order - whereby your stop and limit are at the same (or very close) price.


If your stop-loss order was converted to a limit order, and if the exchange was unable to sell at that price as the price had already dropped through that level,  then your order would not get executed...


I have removed the rest of your message as it is based on a wrong premise. No, it was not a stop-loss order. I learned not to ever use stop-orders on Kraken as they simply don't work as intended (exactly as you are describing). I underatand stop loss orders are NOT on the order book until they get triggered and inserted (whenever that happens) in the order book. This has NOTHING to do with that.

It was LIMIT ORDERS, opened several days in advance, already on the order book that HAVE NOT BEEN EXECUTED YET THE PRICE HAS KEPT RISING ABOVE THEM.

When I say the trading engine/order book in Kraken is broken I really mean it. There is absolutely no technical explanation to this. The only doubt I have is WHO profited from it.
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May 23, 2017, 02:17:57 PM

I hate this stagnation, and it had been only a few hours xD

But that's why I can't become a trader. You need steel nerves to handle the movements of the market like this.
Me I'm just a poor lonesome holder.
At least you're sure you don't lose money, all you lose is capitalization!

Then if it becomes world conquering and comparatively glacial you're going to need a full time drug and nurse regimen to cope with it. People here are spoiled for action, sometimes not the action they want of course.
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May 23, 2017, 02:23:57 PM


I have removed the rest of your message as it is based on a wrong premise. No, it was not a stop-loss order. I learned not to ever use stop-orders on Kraken as they simply don't work as intended (exactly as you are describing). I underatand stop loss orders are NOT on the order book until they get triggered and inserted (whenever that happens) in the order book. This has NOTHING to do with that.

It was LIMIT ORDERS, opened several days in advance, already on the order book that HAVE NOT BEEN EXECUTED YET THE PRICE HAS KEPT RISING ABOVE THEM.

When I say the trading engine/order book in Kraken is broken I really mean it. There is absolutely no technical explanation to this. The only doubt I have is WHO profited from it.


I don't even pay that much attention but I have heard multiple shady stories on this form about both Kraken and Bitfinex.

Personally I would never use either of them. Trying to make gains via leverage gambling is simply not worth the risk when you factor in the high probability of eventual catastrophic exchange failure.

I use Gemini. Slight premium there that is well worth paying for the added safety.
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May 23, 2017, 02:32:56 PM


This is an old problem ... I am guessing that what has happened is..


That your stop is in fact converted into a limit order - whereby your stop and limit are at the same (or very close) price.


If your stop-loss order was converted to a limit order, and if the exchange was unable to sell at that price as the price had already dropped through that level,  then your order would not get executed...


I have removed the rest of your message as it is based on a wrong premise. No, it was not a stop-loss order. I learned not to ever use stop-orders on Kraken as they simply don't work as intended (exactly as you are describing). I underatand stop loss orders are NOT on the order book until they get triggered and inserted (whenever that happens) in the order book. This has NOTHING to do with that.

It was LIMIT ORDERS, opened several days in advance, already on the order book that HAVE NOT BEEN EXECUTED YET THE PRICE HAS KEPT RISING ABOVE THEM.

When I say the trading engine/order book in Kraken is broken I really mean it. There is absolutely no technical explanation to this. The only doubt I have is WHO profited from it.


I do not deny that they could have problems with their engine


But I think .... my explanation may be a little confusing .. or I may be missing something but ...

Limit orders by their very nature are not guaranteed

 If the market price moves too quickly - then anyone with a limit order with priority over your own (placed before yours and therefore further up the list) will get filled first, as will anyone else in front of you on the list  - BUT ONLY AS LONG as there are enough sellers remaining (asks also get pulled) in that price range will your order get filled... if the price moves past your Limit - (and does not fall back to it) then it wont get triggered  as your Limit order has specified the price you are willing to pay- unless the price falls back down to that range again, then your Limit would not get filled as the price has moved past it- and the reason your order didn't get filled is because the Limit orders in front of yours got filled in the time while you were waiting for yours to trigger, and then the price moved past your limit, and market and limit orders at that level are now getting triggered - this is common among all trading platforms (I got stung hard on a leveraged Gold position I had many moons ago).   

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May 23, 2017, 02:40:49 PM

oh look a new ATH how nice.
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May 23, 2017, 02:42:46 PM

BTC===> go go go ATHHHHHH Shocked  ~trigger timeeeeeeee
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May 23, 2017, 02:42:56 PM

oh look a new ATH how nice.

yeah.

great.

I s'pose.
bitserve
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May 23, 2017, 02:43:29 PM


This is an old problem ... I am guessing that what has happened is..


That your stop is in fact converted into a limit order - whereby your stop and limit are at the same (or very close) price.


If your stop-loss order was converted to a limit order, and if the exchange was unable to sell at that price as the price had already dropped through that level,  then your order would not get executed...


I have removed the rest of your message as it is based on a wrong premise. No, it was not a stop-loss order. I learned not to ever use stop-orders on Kraken as they simply don't work as intended (exactly as you are describing). I underatand stop loss orders are NOT on the order book until they get triggered and inserted (whenever that happens) in the order book. This has NOTHING to do with that.

It was LIMIT ORDERS, opened several days in advance, already on the order book that HAVE NOT BEEN EXECUTED YET THE PRICE HAS KEPT RISING ABOVE THEM.

When I say the trading engine/order book in Kraken is broken I really mean it. There is absolutely no technical explanation to this. The only doubt I have is WHO profited from it.


I do not deny that they could have problems with their engine


But I think .... my explanation may be a little confusing .. or I may be missing something but ...

Limit orders by their very nature are not guaranteed -  

 If the market price moves too quickly - then anyone with a limit order with priority over your own (placed before yours and therefore further up the list) will get filled first, as will anyone else in front of you on the list  - BUT ONLY AS LONG as there are enough sellers remaining (asks also get pulled) in that price range will your order get filled... if the price moves past your Limit - (and does not fall back to it) then it wont get triggered  as your Limit order has specified the price you are willing to pay- unless the price falls back down to that range again, then your Limit would not get filled as the price has moved past it- and the reason your order didn't get filled is because the Limit orders in front of yours got filled in the time while you were waiting for yours to trigger, and then the price moved past your limit, and market and limit orders at that level are now getting triggered - this is common among all trading platforms (I got stung hard on a leveraged Gold position I had many moons ago).  



Again, that description you are giving is of stop-loss or stop-loss triggered limit orders. Nothing to do with that I am talking about.

When you have a limit order on the order book, ie: an ask at 1995€ for 1BTC. There is no way price should rise higher than 1995€ without honoring your sell order at 1995€ limit. No, the price can't reach 2082€ if I have sell orders already on the book (since several days before) for much less than that price.

Otherwise the order book would have no reason to exist and the exchange would just pair orders however they feel like.... ie: matching orders with their way higer ones ignoring more favourable ones for the buyer. That's nonsense.

Again, if you are describing how stop loss limit orders behave, yes, that's correct, but that's not the case here, otherwise it would be a non issue.
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May 23, 2017, 02:46:59 PM



Ok yeah I see what you mean.

I'll try Bitstamp then, it's not really for the best to stay on a trading platform with such problems xD

It's not that I am vouching for Bitstamp either, considering the risks any and all trading platforms present. I am just talking about my personal experience/incidents or lack thereof.

Can you tell how many BTC were bought/sold in that huge spike to 2082€? According to the order books, it should take a massive order of almost 2000BTC to reach this price now. According to the charts, that did not happen (the volume in those spikes was about 100BTC). Therefore it was not a massive bought order but some kind of bug/error in their API. Dont you think so?


That does seem to be a likely explanation. Looking at the 5m chart, there seem to be two separate spikes above 2000Eur but both with rather low volume (100BTC)

Of course it was a "small" order that produced that spike BECAUSE IT BYPASSED THE ORDER BOOK.

But the problem is not in the API:


XBT/EUR

    Last
    €1,894.680
    High
    €2,082.958

    Low
    €1,757.400
    24 Hour Volume
    25,936.77
    Weighted Avg
    €1,879.344

There was real coins being bought at that price... but not from me or others even if we had lower sell limit orders in place way before that spike happenned. (days).

So the question is... who was the fortunate guy that sold them at that high price BYPASSING THE ORDER BOOK?

I was watching Kraken at that time.  I was waiting in a queue for two hours and had very little to do except keep refreshing all my coin charts, including the Kraken app.  I did not see that price reached or any unusual fluctuations in the price.  I do not believe it was real, or if it was it must have been so momentary that no other prices were hit in between.  A fat-fingered buyer perhaps?  Someone who thought they were trading USD instead of EUR??

It could be a fat finger or most probably a short squeeze. That doesn't matter... the price reached 2082€ (as you can see on kraken site itself as high price today), I had sell limit orders placed on the ORDER BOOK from several days ago at 19XX€ which should have been honored. The price cannot reach higher without honoring orders in the order book. It's as simple as that.

Even if the site became unusable during that spike, orders already in the order book BEFORE the fat-finger/short squeeze must be honored (My orders were there from several days ago). YOu can even halt the trading for some issue, but the price cannot get higher without honoring previous lower orders. That's how an order book (should) works.

I also had a sell limit order today that did not execute but should have, at 12:51 GMT+2. I saw the chart, new my order should've executed, went to Kraken to go place a buy order, but no joy.
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May 23, 2017, 02:48:23 PM

oh look a new ATH how nice.


sells farm goes all into bitcoin Cool *here we go HERE WE GOOOOO ====> THIS IS ITTTTTTTTTTT!!!! Smiley
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May 23, 2017, 02:51:18 PM

oh look a new ATH how nice.

yeah.

great.

I s'pose.

Now even bearstamp's caught up and hit a new ATH. If bearstamp's at an ATH all the other exchanges must have hit ATHs ages ago. This could be the start of a pump to $2300.

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May 23, 2017, 02:53:32 PM

remember $2000? we're 1/4 of the way to $3000 already. (we'll be there momentarily).

also, my theory that finex has run out of fiat hodls true. it is lagging behind stamp more and more often these days.
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May 23, 2017, 02:53:54 PM

oh look a new ATH how nice.

yeah.

great.

I s'pose.

Now even bearstamp's caught up and hit a new ATH. If bearstamp's at an ATH all the other exchanges must have hit ATHs ages ago. This could be the start of a pump to $2300.

https://s21.postimg.org/ywctf4lbr/bitstamp.png

KABOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMM ===> Wall Street Cool  $5000 soon ~woof!
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May 23, 2017, 02:57:20 PM

oh look a new ATH how nice.

yeah.

great.

I s'pose.
We are so jaded....
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May 23, 2017, 02:59:37 PM

Good morning Bitcoinland.

Yesterday's correction was a good one... $230, but we still went on to a new ATH today... currently $2247USD/$3027CAD (Bitcoinaverage).

Love this self-correcting uptrend with no end in sight. Keep 'er coming.

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