Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[brg444]

Why not move to BitSharesforum then and give us a break? By the sounds of it it's better right? I mean... it can scale to trillions of transactions, what else could you possibly want.

By "us" you mean you and iCE? oh, I almost forgot the cuddly but distinctly more inept hdbuck.

You couldn't possibly be taking sides with a guy who believe you can buy block space on the blockchain, are you?

Using an admittedly shitty analogy doesn't automatically mean everything he subsequently says is invalid.

I similarly don't write off all of your opinions, despite your recent statement that people might pay $5, 10, 50 to make an entry on your easily replicated, 5 mining pool run, settlement layer.

Good luck easily replicating 500,000,000 GH/s  

People invest in mining coin because of what it can be. Not for what it is today. More fees spread over more transactions is definitely in their interest. If core devs insist on keeping this veneer of control, they would be wise to compromise for 4MB in 2016, and doubling at the halvings.  

That's actually not how it works.

People invest in mining coins to make a profit. That's it. They do so by mining the chain that holds the most value, value that is entrusted to it by investors.

Don't believe for a second that miners decide what chain to follow or that rules should be set according to what is "in their interest".

[Richy_T]

Yes, similarly SDRs are known to be worthless  

Explain SDRs to me in a way which doesn't involve currencies that millions, if not billions of people from poorest to richest use in transactions everyday (including "tipping for coffee").

[ChartBuddy]

Coin

Explanation

[brg444]

Yes, similarly SDRs are known to be worthless  

Explain SDRs to me in a way which doesn't involve currencies that millions, if not billions of people from poorest to richest use in transactions everyday (including "tipping for coffee").

Are you really that dense? Would you have preferred I use gold?

You are insinuating that Bitcoin becoming a settlement layer for large value transaction excludes the possibility that it becomes a monetary reserve for open source payment layers and fiat currencies which the "billions of people from poorest to richest" will use in transactions everyday. I personally think that's the likely outcome.

[Richy_T]

People invest in mining coin because of what it can be. Not for what it is today. More fees spread over more transactions is definitely in their interest. If core devs insist on keeping this veneer of control, they would be wise to compromise for 4MB in 2016, and doubling at the halvings.  

Nah, I'd suggest that most miners are in it for the block subsidy right now.

Now, when that goes away and the richest of the rich, well, those who want to keep their currency movements secret, well, those who don't have the "right contacts" to do it for them in the demonstrably corrupt banking system have Bitcoin usage down to a couple of transactions an hour, I guess someone will fire up a GPU miner for beer money.

[Richy_T]

Are you really that dense? Would you have preferred I use gold?

Ah yes, that well known universal settlement mechanism, gold. You watch too many James Bond movies

(Which also happens to be used by billions of people, from rich to poor, in electronics and jewelery BTW)

Once you get to Bitcoin only being a settlement layer between open source payment layers or whatever, you lose the point of bitcoin which is trustless transactions. Those layers will be few enough that trust layers can be built between them and Bitcoin becomes irrelevant.

Which won't happen because big blocks are coming. And they are coming because that is what is needed.

[brg444]

People invest in mining coin because of what it can be. Not for what it is today. More fees spread over more transactions is definitely in their interest. If core devs insist on keeping this veneer of control, they would be wise to compromise for 4MB in 2016, and doubling at the halvings.  

Nah, I'd suggest that most miners are in it for the block subsidy right now.

Now, when that goes away and the richest of the rich, well, those who want to keep their currency movements secret, well, those who don't have the "right contacts" to do it for them in the demonstrably corrupt banking system have Bitcoin usage down to a couple of transactions an hour, I guess someone will fire up a GPU miner for beer money.

Do you propose these shenanigans don't cost them a pretty penny? You do realise corruption involves bribes?

What would you guess is more expensive, Bitcoin transactions or bribes to various bankers, accountant & state officials?

[Cconvert2G36]

Why not move to BitSharesforum then and give us a break? By the sounds of it it's better right? I mean... it can scale to trillions of transactions, what else could you possibly want.

By "us" you mean you and iCE? oh, I almost forgot the cuddly but distinctly more inept hdbuck.

You couldn't possibly be taking sides with a guy who believe you can buy block space on the blockchain, are you?

Using an admittedly shitty analogy doesn't automatically mean everything he subsequently says is invalid.

I similarly don't write off all of your opinions, despite your recent statement that people might pay $5, 10, 50 to make an entry on your easily replicated, 5 mining pool run, settlement layer.

Good luck easily replicating 500,000,000 GH/s  

People invest in mining coin because of what it can be. Not for what it is today. More fees spread over more transactions is definitely in their interest. If core devs insist on keeping this veneer of control, they would be wise to compromise for 4MB in 2016, and doubling at the halvings.  

That's actually not how it works.

People invest in mining coins to make a profit. That's it. They do so by mining the chain that holds the most value, value that is entrusted to it by investors.

Don't believe for a second that miners decide what chain to follow or that rules should be set according to what is "in their interest".

I'm not going to go digging, but you recently were arguing in this thread that bitfury doesn't sell their coins, they're banking on the future, being positive on today's income sheet is secondary. They are using big venture capital money to basically buy huge amounts of coin without pushing the secondary market. This is absolutely forward looking, not investing in today's system that costs $7 or whatever per tx in inflation costs.

Your final statement should stand alone as it succinctly shows your complete misunderstanding of how, and why(!), this whole thing even works.
  

[brg444]

Are you really that dense? Would you have preferred I use gold?

Ah yes, that well known universal settlement mechanism, gold. You watch too many James Bond movies

(Which also happens to be used by billions of people, from rich to poor, in electronics and jewelery BTW)

 

The good ol' industrial use argument...

While not the same universal settlement mechanism it very much once was, seems to me gold still retains a pretty market cap absent of any actual adoption as money from "billions of people".

But rejoice! Bitcoin is even better than gold at this job.

If independence means freedom, in the emerging Era of Bitcoin, independence means freedom from physicality, both geographic and material. If Germany had its wealth stored in BTC instead of gold, it wouldn’t have to beg the USG to please, pretty please, let it audit its own stores under Manhattan. If Germany stockpiled bitcoin instead of gold, it might actually be an independent nation.

Consider yourself lucky. Seeing as you have realized the "Bitcoin opportunity" sooner than 99% of the world's population you shouldn't have any problem transacting directly on its blockchain in the future.

[Richy_T]

Do you propose these shenanigans don't cost them a pretty penny? You do realise corruption involves bribes?

What would you guess is more expensive, Bitcoin transactions or bribes to various bankers, accountant & state officials?

What do they do when they transfer these bitcoins to their other rich friends, have them transfer them back to them? If you want to use them, you'll have to convert to a real-world currency which can be spent and then you're back in the world of bankers anyway.

So your way is Clandestine $->BTC , $4 transaction fee then clandesting BTC->$

Or just go with the clandestine $ shenanigans anyway.

[Richy_T]

The good ol' industrial use argument...

Actually it is not. Though I can see why you would think that and it's only about 40% because you're dim.

[brg444]

Why not move to BitSharesforum then and give us a break? By the sounds of it it's better right? I mean... it can scale to trillions of transactions, what else could you possibly want.

By "us" you mean you and iCE? oh, I almost forgot the cuddly but distinctly more inept hdbuck.

You couldn't possibly be taking sides with a guy who believe you can buy block space on the blockchain, are you?

Using an admittedly shitty analogy doesn't automatically mean everything he subsequently says is invalid.

I similarly don't write off all of your opinions, despite your recent statement that people might pay $5, 10, 50 to make an entry on your easily replicated, 5 mining pool run, settlement layer.

Good luck easily replicating 500,000,000 GH/s  

People invest in mining coin because of what it can be. Not for what it is today. More fees spread over more transactions is definitely in their interest. If core devs insist on keeping this veneer of control, they would be wise to compromise for 4MB in 2016, and doubling at the halvings.  

That's actually not how it works.

People invest in mining coins to make a profit. That's it. They do so by mining the chain that holds the most value, value that is entrusted to it by investors.

Don't believe for a second that miners decide what chain to follow or that rules should be set according to what is "in their interest".

I'm not going to go digging, but you recently were arguing in this thread that bitfury doesn't sell their coins, they're banking on the future, being positive on today's income sheet is secondary. They are using big venture capital money to basically buy huge amounts of coin without pushing the secondary market. This is absolutely forward looking, not investing in today's system that costs $7 or whatever per tx in inflation costs.

Your final statement should stand alone as it succinctly shows your complete misunderstanding of how, and why(!), this whole thing even works.

Hmm wait a minute. Who ever mentioned fiat profit?

Profit, in this case, is denominated in Bitcoin.  Bitfury mines the Bitcoin blockchain simply because it is the most valuable coin. The value is not in the future but now. The fact that it fluctuates is irrelevant.

As for your last comment, what is it you don't agree with? Do you propose miners are origins of Bitcoin value? Or that we should set the rules of the protocol so as to maximize their profits regardless of the costs externalized to other participants?

[Richy_T]

If independence means freedom, in the emerging Era of Bitcoin, independence means freedom from physicality, both geographic and material. If Germany had its wealth stored in BTC instead of gold, it wouldn’t have to beg the USG to please, pretty please, let it audit its own stores under Manhattan. If Germany stockpiled bitcoin instead of gold, it might actually be an independent nation.

Consider yourself lucky. Seeing as you have realized the "Bitcoin opportunity" sooner than 99% of the world's population you shouldn't have any problem transacting directly on its blockchain in the future.

There's not enough value of Bitcoin for Germany to do that currently. We're playing in the shallow end of the pool and if Bitcoin is going to do anything serious, it's going to have to learn to swim. I have little doubt it will though. And that will mean bigger blocks, one way or another.

[brg444]

Do you propose these shenanigans don't cost them a pretty penny? You do realise corruption involves bribes?

What would you guess is more expensive, Bitcoin transactions or bribes to various bankers, accountant & state officials?

What do they do when they transfer these bitcoins to their other rich friends, have them transfer them back to them? If you want to use them, you'll have to convert to a real-world currency which can be spent and then you're back in the world of bankers anyway.

So your way is Clandestine $->BTC , $4 transaction fee then clandesting BTC->$

Or just go with the clandestine $ shenanigans anyway.

 

Bitcoin is not a real-world currency?

I can understand that your mind is programmed to think in terms of fiat but I would ask that you come up with a hint of foresight so that we can proceed with this conversation...

If everyone and their rich friends are using Bitcoin to preserve their monetary sovereignty why would they ever convert their money back to fiat?

[brg444]

If independence means freedom, in the emerging Era of Bitcoin, independence means freedom from physicality, both geographic and material. If Germany had its wealth stored in BTC instead of gold, it wouldn’t have to beg the USG to please, pretty please, let it audit its own stores under Manhattan. If Germany stockpiled bitcoin instead of gold, it might actually be an independent nation.

Consider yourself lucky. Seeing as you have realized the "Bitcoin opportunity" sooner than 99% of the world's population you shouldn't have any problem transacting directly on its blockchain in the future.

There's not enough value of Bitcoin for Germany to do that currently. We're playing in the shallow end of the pool and if Bitcoin is going to do anything serious, it's going to have to learn to swim. I have little doubt it will though. And that will mean bigger blocks, one way or another.

Gawd you are such a buzzkill  

Do you have no imagination?

[Richy_T]

Bitcoin is not a real-world currency?

It is at the moment. Under your fantasy future, not so much.

[Richy_T]

If everyone and their rich friends are using Bitcoin to preserve their monetary sovereignty why would they ever convert their money back to fiat?

Because Scrooge McDuck diving into a vault-full of gold is a cartoon and not real. People with wealth generally want to do things with it. Buy yachts, build Casinos, hookers and blow, all that. And that requires a currency that others transact in.

If everyone is just storing their wealth with very little in the way of transactions, mining becomes less profitable, miners leave, network security falls away, money leaves Bitcoin and it all becomes worthless. Which is why that won't happen.

This is all rehashed stuff so I'm going to stop here. People can make their minds up in their own time and blocksize will increase in good time.

[brg444]

If independence means freedom, in the emerging Era of Bitcoin, independence means freedom from physicality, both geographic and material. If Germany had its wealth stored in BTC instead of gold, it wouldn’t have to beg the USG to please, pretty please, let it audit its own stores under Manhattan. If Germany stockpiled bitcoin instead of gold, it might actually be an independent nation.

Consider yourself lucky. Seeing as you have realized the "Bitcoin opportunity" sooner than 99% of the world's population you shouldn't have any problem transacting directly on its blockchain in the future.

We're playing in the shallow end of the pool and if Bitcoin is going to do anything serious, it's going to have to learn to swim. I have little doubt it will though. And that will mean bigger blocks, one way or another.

What's that even supposed to mean? So because Bitcoin is small we should cater to small pockets and de minimis use cases? How dare should we have ambition and focus our efforts on the more wealthy adopting it, right?

No! Bitcoin is for the people, not the rich! Let's aim for "mainstream adoption", that's where the REAL value is! Right...... right?

[brg444]

If everyone and their rich friends are using Bitcoin to preserve their monetary sovereignty why would they ever convert their money back to fiat?

Because Scrooge McDuck diving into a vault-full of gold is a cartoon and not real. People with wealth generally want to do things with it. Buy yachts, build Casinos, hookers and blow, all that. And that requires a currency that others transact in.

 

You cannot be serious....

So savings are not a thing anymore? I guess that's how serious the fiat economy has mindfucked everyone's brain...

I guess you are right if you think of bitcoins as dollars, which they are not but to entertain the idea:

The problem inflationary currency bestows upon capital allocators is insolvable. They are given money of no certain value (pretty much the only sure thing about the paper currency is that it is, literally, burning in your hands, it ticks away like a bomb, it blows in the wind like dust - all this while you're holding it) and have to do something with it. They always, always, always, absolutely always have more than is in fact needed.

http://trilema.com/2012/the-problem-of-too-much-money/#selection-163.0-163.438

Fortunately we all know this is actually not the case and seeing as Bitcoin is deflationary by nature one should be well advised to consider hoarding that shit as long as reasonably possible.

[Cconvert2G36]

I'm not going to go digging, but you recently were arguing in this thread that bitfury doesn't sell their coins, they're banking on the future, being positive on today's income sheet is secondary. They are using big venture capital money to basically buy huge amounts of coin without pushing the secondary market. This is absolutely forward looking, not investing in today's system that costs $7 or whatever per tx in inflation costs.

Your final statement should stand alone as it succinctly shows your complete misunderstanding of how, and why(!), this whole thing even works.

Hmm wait a minute. Who ever mentioned fiat profit?

Profit, in this case, is denominated in Bitcoin.  Bitfury mines the Bitcoin blockchain simply because it is the most valuable coin. The value is not in the future but now. The fact that it fluctuates is irrelevant.

As for your last comment, what is it you don't agree with? Do you propose miners are origins of Bitcoin value? Or that we should set the rules of the protocol so as to maximize their profits regardless of the costs externalized to other participants?

I know you're quite enamored with bitcoin, I am too, but the real world (power companies, sellers/renters of real estate) tend to still be using that whole silly fiat thing. Haven't quite listed themselves on MPEx with the other titans of industry, as it were. The world isn't our own personal castle game... yet.

Miners incentives are the variable that counts. And it isn't gmaxwell in a cape that is keeping them in line and holding their arm back from slaughtering the golden goose. Why? Because satoshi designed the entire system so that their interests were sufficiently aligned with those that they service.