Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

Sorry. I'm having a hard time avoiding the snark in me here. I guess I see why this has all blown up so badly... If only belittling others could be used to secure the blockchain!

Thank you

[ChartBuddy]

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Explanation

[JayJuanGee]

The Pic speaks for it self

This is a Bitcoin thread in the Bitcoin section, so you shouldn't be promoting altcoins here.

Neverheless ethereum's only gone up by 10.57%. Why did you omit dogecoin which has surpassed it by going up by 11.11%? You showed dash at 5th place which has crashed, but omitted dogecoin at 6th place.


Dogecoin has been pumped numerous times, and ethereum's being pumped like any other altcoin.

dash, Litecoin, Dogecoin.... and so many other coins are just a Bitcoin copy cats, Bitcoin's limitations will apply on all the Bitcoin forks, in the other hand you have ETH which is a kick ass platform.


BTW: you don't get to tel me what I can discuss and what not especially in this thread and in this sub-forum. period.

It's not me that tells you what you can discuss, it's the mods. This is what Lauda (a mod) has to say about a post just like yours in the Bitcoin discussion board. He says making a price comparison isn't a discussion related to Bitcoin. That post also starts with a coinmarketcap screenshot.

No it's not. This is Bitcoin related. Far superior tech replacing your precious BTC.

This is a discussion about another useless coin. This is not related to Bitcoin (making a price comparison != related to Bitcoin/B. Discussion).

Please lets stop talking about Bitcoin's technical limitations, because this way they will go away... and please don't mention any better, efficient and advanced solutions especially in the forum where most crypto enthusiasts/investors gather to get information, this way Bitcoin will never fail...


One thing you've got right, I have to stop posting hints about the dead horse, the time of free hints is gone... this will be the last one I promise.

Edit: I stopped visiting this sub-forum for almost a year, I got more productive, I will stop visiting again.... nothing good comes out of here, this is my last post ever in the speculation sub-forum.

We can only be so lucky that you follow through with this threat.

Thank you lordy.... 

[CuntChocula]

Oh man... 390 gives up the ghost
Will 380 hodl?

[ChartBuddy]

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Explanation

[barbs]

this is like watching a slow motion car crash over and over

[peonminer]

this is like watching a slow motion car crash over and over

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

Geez fellas. Is this like one of those pump and dumps you hear about at parties?

[ChartBuddy]

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Explanation

[Richy_T]

4c is high.

High? Are you high? Compared to any other alternative (banks, visa, mc, paypal, western union, swift) it's the lowest you can get. Even an sms will cost me 0.12 euro and if I send it globally it might cost me half a euro.

Mail -> Email
Visa -> Bitcoin.

Stamp->49c Email->marginal cost
Visa->0 cost to customer, BTC->?

Do the maths.

And comparing SMS? LOL, a horrendously overcharged item enabled by government granted monopoly... Are *you* high?

[Richy_T]

Sorry. I'm having a hard time avoiding the snark in me here. I guess I see why this has all blown up so badly... If only belittling others could be used to secure the blockchain!

My god, I think you might be on to something.

[JayJuanGee]

4c is high.

High? Are you high? Compared to any other alternative (banks, visa, mc, paypal, western union, swift) it's the lowest you can get. Even an sms will cost me 0.12 euro and if I send it globally it might cost me half a euro.

Mail -> Email
Visa -> Bitcoin.

Stamp->49c Email->marginal cost
Visa->0 cost to customer, BTC->?

Do the maths.

And comparing SMS? LOL, a horrendously overcharged item enabled by government granted monopoly... Are *you* high?

Richie..... I think to be objective, you gotta concede a bit on your rendition of the cost(s) of credit cards.  We cannot calculate costs from only one side of the transaction.... Credit card transactions are generally at least 2%... and frequently closer to 5% by the time you add all the various charges on merchants.

Expanding the topic a bit into bank transfers:  In recent times, I have come across quite a few bank transfer services that are free between customers of the same bank or with minimal efforts to set up sending and/or receiving accounts.  However, really, are those services free?  Frequently, they can take 1-5 business days to clear, and also banks are rarely paying any meaningful interest rate on the money that they hold for you (as they had in the olden days).  In this regard, banks are providing some purportedly "free" services, but they are getting use of trillions (or at least billions) of dollars without paying any interest rates.

My point is that I think that we should really consider whether a transaction is free, such as using our credit cards..... when we are comparing the current and/or upcoming costs of using bitcoin. 

[CuntChocula]

Ma send me money now / I'm gonna make it somehow
I need another chance / You see your baby loves to dance
Yeah          yeah       yeaaaah.
http://s29.postimg.org/t5ili8493/davisofhumanbondage.png

[JorgeStolfi]

Longterm Bitcoin has to gather enough fees to survive, without fees no miners.

Or in your business language: We can give away our product for free, said no successful business ever.

edit: the fees will longterm lead 1:1 to Bitcoins security. the higher the gathered fees the higher the security of the network.

Without fees, no miners. So people will pay fees to keep their transactions getting on the blockchain and miners will select transactions which help pay for their business. This isn't rocket science.

The problem comes when someone comes along and interferes in this negotiation between customer and service provider and distorts the value proposition.

More explictly: by Greg's argument, the UN should impose a worldwide production limit of 1 million liters of soft drinks per day.  Otherwise, the manufacturers like Coke and Pepsi have to give way their products for free,  they would go broke, and there would not be enough soft drinks for everybody.   

BITCOIN: The world's future global value transmission system, secured by 1000 PH/s of mining power and by a developer team who would bankrupt a homemade lemonade stand on the first day.

[JorgeStolfi]

A contentious hard fork is incredibly destructive because it tells the minority that their opinions and interest do not manner. It is a use of force over persuasion. [ ... ] The Chinese miners with their 90% hash rate support requirement for a hard fork have the right idea. Even with 90% such a fork should be rolled out a slowly as possible with maximum possible outreach to the remaining 10%.

So it is much better if a minorty of 15% tells the 85% majority that their opinions and interests don't matter?   

Mankind has been struggling with the problem of collective decision-making for several thousand years, if not several million.   While it can be proved mathematically that there is no ideal solution (just as it was proved that there could be no distributed payment system), mankind has found over time that some solutions are worse than others, and identified some that are generally less bad than all the others.

Unfortunately, those solutions are generally based on the idea that it is better to have the majority of people happy and a minority unhappy, than the other way around; and that assumption does not go well with some people.

[rebuilder]

4c is high.

I'd say we don't know if it's high or not, and protocol decisions shouldn't be made based on opinions on market pricing. Low-fee transactions aren't any better a design goal than high-fee transactions if reaching that goal requires developers to start intervening in free price discovery.

What I'm getting at: Better efficiency is a great goal, and would lead to a lower unit price for transactions, obviously. Trying to fix prices outside the market is a bad goal.

[CuntChocula]

Longterm Bitcoin has to gather enough fees to survive, without fees no miners.

Or in your business language: We can give away our product for free, said no successful business ever.

edit: the fees will longterm lead 1:1 to Bitcoins security. the higher the gathered fees the higher the security of the network.

Without fees, no miners. So people will pay fees to keep their transactions getting on the blockchain and miners will select transactions which help pay for their business. This isn't rocket science.

The problem comes when someone comes along and interferes in this negotiation between customer and service provider and distorts the value proposition.

More explictly: by Greg's argument, the UN should impose a worldwide production limit of 1 million liters of soft drinks per day.  Otherwise, the manufacturers like Coke and Pepsi have to give way their products for free,  they would go broke, and there would not be enough soft drinks for everybody.  

BITCOIN: The world's future global value transmission system, secured by 1000 PH/s of mining power and by a developer team who would bankrupt a homemade lemonade stand on the first day.

To be fair, in your analogy, Coke/Pepsi are *required* to process (bottle and ship) 1 million liter bottles per day, between them. This number is set in stone -- they can't opt to make more or less.
They are currently paid 25BTC every ten minutes to do so, regardless of what they stick in the liter bottles -- Coke, Pepsi, or piss -- that's up to them.

Arguably, it's in their enlightened self-interest to put Coke/Pepsi in the bottles, because they could sell those. In practice, the extra revenue is negligible, and, at times, putting piss/absolutely nothing in the bottles makes better economic sense.

[Adrian-x]

Longterm Bitcoin has to gather enough fees to survive, without fees no miners.

Or in your business language: We can give away our product for free, said no successful business ever.

edit: the fees will longterm lead 1:1 to Bitcoins security. the higher the gathered fees the higher the security of the network.

Without fees, no miners. So people will pay fees to keep their transactions getting on the blockchain and miners will select transactions which help pay for their business. This isn't rocket science.

The problem comes when someone comes along and interferes in this negotiation between customer and service provider and distorts the value proposition.

More explictly: by Greg's argument, the UN should impose a worldwide production limit of 1 million liters of soft drinks per day.  Otherwise, the manufacturers like Coke and Pepsi have to give way their products for free,  they would go broke, and there would not be enough soft drinks for everybody.  

BITCOIN: The world's future global value transmission system, secured by 1000 PH/s of mining power and by a developer team who would bankrupt a homemade lemonade stand on the first day.

quoted for truth.

Well it's nice to see you rooting for bitcoin, I see you just dot promote investing in it.

[ChartBuddy]

Coin



Explanation

[Richy_T]

Richie..... I think to be objective, you gotta concede a bit on your rendition of the cost(s) of credit cards.  We cannot calculate costs from only one side of the transaction.... Credit card transactions are generally at least 2%... and frequently closer to 5% by the time you add all the various charges on merchants.

I'll happily concede. But when someone is comparing apples to oranges, forgive me if I wax lyrical on the properties of bananas.

Quite simply, you have to look at the system, what backs it, what kind of market it is (monopolistic, oligopolistic, competetive, peer-to-peer etc) , the respective costs and so forth. What, really, is a reasonable cost to process and store 250 bytes of data? Is that not between the miner and their customer?

Here is a Bitcoin transaction to give an idea:

Code:

0100000001f07dc78617ee497ce81d9c3024ba052f532c76dea9c7cba6479fdfbf803f9d76010000006b483045022100fc5af108513379925a1925ba287659303acac924158b271dbd49d7e0e70fee11022056ac8c66cac785a6bfd08863f4b4e846995afaa55662e86ec1275aba60bdd4e50121032328833755deab07f5aeacdd6ee25f5a4c4a864d874197cf5795ed1d9f6eb1dffeffffff02304b8400000000001976a914270a5f4d1e192551ca7dcc2d97242753d54ad39a88ace060bc02000000001976a914871e8e5104fab525293068a1f399defc4a69adb488ac08070600

Expanding the topic a bit into bank transfers:  In recent times, I have come across quite a few bank transfer services that are free between customers of the same bank or with minimal efforts to set up sending and/or receiving accounts.  However, really, are those services free?  Frequently, they can take 1-5 business days to clear, and also banks are rarely paying any meaningful interest rate on the money that they hold for you (as they had in the olden days).  In this regard, banks are providing some purportedly "free" services, but they are getting use of trillions (or at least billions) of dollars without paying any interest rates.

True. I would avoid any comparison with American banks because, quite frankly, their services are crap and still rooted in the 50s and 60s of the last century.

My point is that I think that we should really consider whether a transaction is free, such as using our credit cards..... when we are comparing the current and/or upcoming costs of using bitcoin.  

Yes. We should not be comparing with legacy services but with the modern, advanced systems of the world we are stepping into.