Bitcoin Forum
August 23, 2024, 04:15:16 PM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 27.1 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Poll
Question: When will BTC get back above $70K:
7/14 - 0 (0%)
7/21 - 1 (1.1%)
7/28 - 11 (11.8%)
8/4 - 16 (17.2%)
8/11 - 7 (7.5%)
8/18 - 5 (5.4%)
8/25 - 7 (7.5%)
After August - 46 (49.5%)
Total Voters: 93

Pages: « 1 ... 28748 28749 28750 28751 28752 28753 28754 28755 28756 28757 28758 28759 28760 28761 28762 28763 28764 28765 28766 28767 28768 28769 28770 28771 28772 28773 28774 28775 28776 28777 28778 28779 28780 28781 28782 28783 28784 28785 28786 28787 28788 28789 28790 28791 28792 28793 28794 28795 28796 28797 [28798] 28799 28800 28801 28802 28803 28804 28805 28806 28807 28808 28809 28810 28811 28812 28813 28814 28815 28816 28817 28818 28819 28820 28821 28822 28823 28824 28825 28826 28827 28828 28829 28830 28831 28832 28833 28834 28835 28836 28837 28838 28839 28840 28841 28842 28843 28844 28845 28846 28847 28848 ... 33670 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26446703 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 3 users with 9 merit deleted.)
sirazimuth
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3472
Merit: 3568


born once atheist


View Profile
June 07, 2021, 08:01:02 PM

Img snip...
Hey! Stop polluting the Wob with images of some random moron making a straining push-out-a-wet fart face.
And the idiot is not even making the correct Wob hand sign ffs....

ChartBuddy
Legendary
*
Online Online

Activity: 2282
Merit: 1800


1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ


View Profile
June 07, 2021, 08:01:27 PM


Explanation
JayJuanGee
Legendary
*
Online Online

Activity: 3822
Merit: 10734


Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"


View Profile
June 07, 2021, 08:11:20 PM
Merited by bitebits (1)

~

So enlighten me (and I don't mean it sarcastically - I genuinely don't know) how Saylor and/or MSTR is going to pay interest on that debt and repay the debt itself? Dump some corn? What if corn lags around $30k?

I surely do not claim to be any kind of expert on the topic, suchmoon.  Since we are in a public thread, I was largely attempting to respond to some of your seemingly dire proclamations regarding the idea that Saylor/MSTR was putting itself in peril in terms of its behaviors of issuing debt instruments (and you seemed to also be implying that Saylor/MSTR might be going beyond acceptable limits of the law.. .so I mentioned that I believe that they likely have good counsel on the matter).

Regarding the possible dire financial angle that you are suggesting in this follow-up, I am not even sure if I understand the difference between the various kinds of financial instruments that MSTR had been issuing over the past year.

I thought that the first two financial instruments that were issued around the end of 2020 were forms of debt that had to be paid back after 5 years, and those two financial instruments requested up to a certain amount of investors, and ended up getting oversubscribed and ended up rising to the level of around $1 billion each (perhaps a bit less than $1billion each).   

From my memory, the first debt instrument had an interest rate of 0.75% and the second one had a zero% interest rate. 

Upon glancing at the third one for $400 million, it does not appear to be a debt instrument, but instead like just issuing stock in the company.. so they would not have to pay that back and the investors would merely be taking risk on the company in terms of performance and value of any of those securities that they were to buy... presuming that they could be traded on the market..

So as far as I can tell MSTR ONLY has to pay back the first two debt instruments, and presuming that they have not agreed to payments along the way, those two would come due 5 years after they issue.. let's just say slightly less than $1billion each.

I am not exactly sure about their average costs per BTC in connection with MSTR's purchases in connection with each of the times that they issued the debt, but it seems that one was around $10k and the other was around $20k, but around a month ago, Saylor had announced that MSTR had an average BTC purchase price of around $24k per BTC for all of their BTC holdings.

So your scenario of BTC lingering at $30k for 5 years (or let's say another 4.5 years when those notes would come due) does not even put MSTR in the negative regarding their use of debt for those purchases. 

Over nearly the past year that Saylor/MSTR has been in the press, we have learned that MSTR had been a company that had pretty high level (relatively speaking) of cash reserves, including around $10 million to $30million in monthly cashflows from profits of its company sales.  Surely, it is the bailiwick of MSTR to try to figure out how they want to play their corn, to analyze their business in terms of cash reserves, cashflow from sales and bitcoin value and how to manage such assets including which ones to sell first, if they were to sell any to service their debts.  So, sure they are free to sell corn, if they feel that they need to in order to service their debts in the event that they do not have cash/or abilities to service those debts with other moneys or assets that they might have.

Of course, they would have a BIGGER problem if BTC prices were to go below their average purchase price of $24k per BTC and they were forced to sell their BTC at a loss or at time that is NOT of their own choosing (presuming that the BTC price does not significantly rise and just continues to spiral down for the next 4.5 years).  So, in that regard, MSTR (and Saylor et al) are making a speculative bet that the value of the bitcoin that they purchased with that debt is going to be higher than the price that they paid for the bitcoin with that debt (plus the 0.75% interest on the first one, and the second one was issued without interest, as I already mentioned).

Saylor, MSTR et al seems to be assessing the situation of their buying BTC is NOT considerably risky, even though of course, there is risk with any investment or business strategy that any company might take in terms of how to use their assets and their resources and what kinds of bets to make towards the future.  Of course, company's bet in differing ways, and some companies end up profiting more than other from their speculative bets and some companies end up losing their asses to their speculative bets.  Time will tell whether Saylor / MSTR is able to profit from their use of debt to buy BTC as they had calculated/speculated that they should be able to do.
philipma1957
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 4228
Merit: 8376


'The right to privacy matters'


View Profile WWW
June 07, 2021, 08:16:03 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)

I invest in bitcoin mostly for ideological reasons, but have to say that since Dec 2017 (last ATH), bitcoin underperformed FAANG and almost all of those stocks with the exception of FB outperformed btc by a factor of about 2X. MSFT also outperformed during this time period.
It has NOT been 2X a year since Dec 2017, no sireee.

This might hurt our/your feelings, but it is what it is..and some people in bitcoin are starting to get on my nerves, especially Max Keiser...what a douche.




Because they can MSM it hard enough to keep it down.

Once again I will use JJG's favorite word cryptocurrency.  All coins are not cover like stocks are.  So guys like MUSk can verbally manipulate all cryptocurrency with out the punishment of government agencies.  Can you imagine

 MUSK ,ZUCKERBERG ,BEZOS TALKING  about Facebook stock Amazon stock and of  course Tesla stock like they have with crypto coins  (sorry JJG)  they want BTC to be a push over along with the other coins.

They want to move and shift the coin market at will.

This is bad and good news.

Bad news they could win and fuck this up bigly
Good news they feel the need to do it which means :

wait for it:

They are afraid.

buy dip and hodl
repeat buy dip and hodl
do not use an exchange with 100x or 50x leverage.

I cash every coin I mine now to fiat and BTC
The only exception to that is BTC
Still stacking BTC.

To JJG I apologize for using that term multiple times but they are trying to use it to hurt the industry and to help themselves.
BTCaesar
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 110
Merit: 23


View Profile
June 07, 2021, 08:25:29 PM

Sometimes i have the feeling like Michael S. plays the good cop and Elon M. the bad one... I think that there is an agreement between them.
El duderino_
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2618
Merit: 12749


BTC + Crossfit, living life.


View Profile
June 07, 2021, 08:53:27 PM

I do hate in bitcoin, the sudden drops while news is SUPER bullish... though it is what it is... we need to deal with it.
BTCaesar
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 110
Merit: 23


View Profile
June 07, 2021, 08:55:15 PM

the next Pump is imminent  Grin

https://twitter.com/PeterSchiff/status/1401998145433841669
El duderino_
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2618
Merit: 12749


BTC + Crossfit, living life.


View Profile
June 07, 2021, 08:58:19 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)

El salvador
Brazil
Paraguay
Panama

https://twitter.com/APompliano/status/1402006002661216262?s=20

....


Pump is inevitable imho, dump is weird atm...

Will turn around soon-ish I guess
ChartBuddy
Legendary
*
Online Online

Activity: 2282
Merit: 1800


1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ


View Profile
June 07, 2021, 09:01:35 PM


Explanation
proudhon
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2198
Merit: 1311



View Profile
June 07, 2021, 09:01:50 PM

...Will turn around soon-ish I guess

Will not turn around ever I know.
OutOfMemory
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1638
Merit: 3309


Man who stares at charts (and stars, too...)


View Profile
June 07, 2021, 09:22:21 PM

...Will turn around soon-ish I guess

Will not turn around ever I know.

Because it never did, right?  Wink

What if the bears prematurely shot their powder before the cycle top and there is only to go up, weeks, maybe months ahead from now because of global adoption (simply spoken, for lack of time)? At least not as strong and long lasting bear cycles.
Nobody was rewarded with huge gains by being impatient with Bitcoin, afaik.
BTCaesar
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 110
Merit: 23


View Profile
June 07, 2021, 09:34:42 PM

...Will turn around soon-ish I guess

Will not turn around ever I know.

Dump-ing now  …  Undecided
OROBTC
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2926
Merit: 1862



View Profile
June 07, 2021, 09:37:40 PM
Merited by LoyceV (4), JayJuanGee (1)

...Will turn around soon-ish I guess

Will not turn around ever I know.


I hope it does turn around, but in my case it really doesn't matter.  Been selling small piece by small piece since I got into Gemini in January, and hence could cash in better all of my old low-cost BTC.

At this point it matters little to me, as I already have made much more than "any right I had" to make.  BTC has helped me to start a fund for each of our two grandchildren.  And allowed us to fly Business Class, even after paying the loathsome Capital Gains Taxes and all.

Still have a stake.  Still will sell, poco-a-poco.  But I will keep my "Legacy Stash" just in case we see $100k.  Or $250k.  Or $0.1k

Go Bitcoin, go!  We need financial options.  But, unless you're young or rich, don't get too greedy....
JayJuanGee
Legendary
*
Online Online

Activity: 3822
Merit: 10734


Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"


View Profile
June 07, 2021, 09:39:10 PM

I invest in bitcoin mostly for ideological reasons, but have to say that since Dec 2017 (last ATH), bitcoin underperformed FAANG and almost all of those stocks with the exception of FB outperformed btc by a factor of about 2X. MSFT also outperformed during this time period.
It has NOT been 2X a year since Dec 2017, no sireee.

This might hurt our/your feelings, but it is what it is..and some people in bitcoin are starting to get on my nerves, especially Max Keiser...what a douche.

You seem to be a douche too, Biodom.

You select the top of the BTC price in December 2017 and then you pick the low of this dip, and then you make your analysis about how BTC is supposedly doing in "it is what it is" terms.. You fucking disingenuine dweeb.

........
Once again I will use JJG's favorite word cryptocurrency.  

.......MUSK ,ZUCKERBERG ,BEZOS TALKING  about Facebook stock Amazon stock and of  course Tesla stock like they have with crypto coins  (sorry JJG)  they want BTC to be a push over along with the other coins.

Don't get me wrong.  I am mostly annoyed by the word "crypto" or it's various derivatives when it is used in a vague way, and we hardly even know what is being referenced, so sometimes it comes up in the context of bitcoin so you cannot determine if the writer (or speaker) is talking about bitcoin or something else or maybe they are afraid to use the word bitcoin.

Another problematic angle is if the word is used because someone wants to talk about some shitcoin, so there are a lot of threads, including this one, that such discussion would be off topic, unless there were some connection made to how it might be relevant to bitcoin. 

 
They want to move and shift the coin market at will.

This is bad and good news.

Bad news they could win and fuck this up bigly

Bitcoin has quite a few design features that prepares it for a large variety of attacks whether we are referring to external attacks or internal attacks, and sure there might be some benefits in realizing if you are being attacked or not.. and sure at the same time, sometimes it could take a wee bit of time to figure out if you are being attacked or not.

Good news they feel the need to do it which means :

wait for it:

They are afraid.

Of course... Cannot argue with you about that.  Some of the hard attempts to lower enthusiasm for bitcoin by dumping the price cannot work very well unless coupled by informational campaigns - and perhaps even making attempts to gamify the attacks so that normies will have more funzies while they are being distracted into nonsense frameworks..., ...Gresham's law gives no shits about whether normies (hopefully none of us enlightened folks) were deceived into holding onto the wrong coin or project and believing that it was going to hold value.... So in some sense, each of us remain responsible for ourselves into NOT getting tricked out of our coins.

buy dip and hodl
repeat buy dip and hodl
do not use an exchange with 100x or 50x leverage.


Hahaha.. one way to get tricked out of coins more quickly.. or maybe even to get tricked out of them when you otherwise would have been able to HODL them.. but instead so many of us are sucked into temptations of gambling.


I cash every coin I mine now to fiat and BTC
The only exception to that is BTC
Still stacking BTC.

To JJG I apologize for using that term multiple times but they are trying to use it to hurt the industry and to help themselves.

Of course, many of us should already know that vague references such as crypto is an attack vector, and a similar thing was true in recent times when there was so much emphasis on blockchain and not bitcoin.. but in the end, that baloney was ONLY able to be framed in that way for so long and more and more peeps began to see through the ongoing nonsense and the meaningless babble - including a lot of smart people get tricked into the wrong kinds of ideas, but when they finally start to figure out what differentiates bitcoin from various nonsense talking points, they will sometimes be able to better know NOT to get tricked again.. or at least be cautious towards getting tricked again.
suchmoon
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3766
Merit: 9007


https://bpip.org


View Profile WWW
June 07, 2021, 09:41:43 PM
Merited by OROBTC (1)

I am not exactly sure about their average costs per BTC in connection with MSTR's purchases in connection with each of the times that they issued the debt, but it seems that one was around $10k and the other was around $20k, but around a month ago, Saylor had announced that MSTR had an average BTC purchase price of around $24k per BTC for all of their BTC holdings.

So your scenario of BTC lingering at $30k for 5 years (or let's say another 4.5 years when those notes would come due) does not even put MSTR in the negative regarding their use of debt for those purchases. 

I meant that they would be under water with this latest debt-financed purchase (e.g at ~$34k) if BTC gets stuck in a prolonged bear season... but if you're saying they don't have to repay it - weird, but what do I know LOL - then I guess they have some breathing room. Still, being a public company I think there is a risk of a minority shareholder lawsuit or some shit like that, which could unravel the whole scheme. Not being a hedge fund or some other investment vehicle and trying to gamble on a very volatile asset seems like asking for trouble.

MSTR (and Saylor et al) are making a speculative bet that the value of the bitcoin that they purchased with that debt is going to be higher than the price that they paid for the bitcoin with that debt (plus the 0.75% interest on the first one, and the second one was issued without interest, as I already mentioned).

Well, that's just that - if Bitcoin does well then surely they'll be able to refinance the debt and keep going possibly without ever selling any coins. But if it doesn't do well enough at the right time for MSTR and they have to dump a large chunk... that'll hurt quite a bit more than Musk's trolling.

I'm still puzzled how we despise debt here - we do, right? - but still cheer debt-fueled speculation.
Toxic2040
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1792
Merit: 4141



View Profile
June 07, 2021, 09:42:40 PM

OutOfMemory
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1638
Merit: 3309


Man who stares at charts (and stars, too...)


View Profile
June 07, 2021, 09:46:28 PM

That dump was quick.
Surprise, surprise...
proudhon
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2198
Merit: 1311



View Profile
June 07, 2021, 09:48:03 PM

That dump was quick.
Surprise, surprise...

It kinda just started.
OROBTC
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2926
Merit: 1862



View Profile
June 07, 2021, 09:48:50 PM

I am not exactly sure about their average costs per BTC in connection with MSTR's purchases in connection with each of the times that they issued the debt, but it seems that one was around $10k and the other was around $20k, but around a month ago, Saylor had announced that MSTR had an average BTC purchase price of around $24k per BTC for all of their BTC holdings.

So your scenario of BTC lingering at $30k for 5 years (or let's say another 4.5 years when those notes would come due) does not even put MSTR in the negative regarding their use of debt for those purchases. 

I meant that they would be under water with this latest debt-financed purchase (e.g at ~$34k) if BTC gets stuck in a prolonged bear season... but if you're saying they don't have to repay it - weird, but what do I know LOL - then I guess they have some breathing room. Still, being a public company I think there is a risk of a minority shareholder lawsuit or some shit like that, which could unravel the whole scheme. Not being a hedge fund or some other investment vehicle and trying to gamble on a very volatile asset seems like asking for trouble.

MSTR (and Saylor et al) are making a speculative bet that the value of the bitcoin that they purchased with that debt is going to be higher than the price that they paid for the bitcoin with that debt (plus the 0.75% interest on the first one, and the second one was issued without interest, as I already mentioned).

Well, that's just that - if Bitcoin does well then surely they'll be able to refinance the debt and keep going possibly without ever selling any coins. But if it doesn't do well enough at the right time for MSTR and they have to dump a large chunk... that'll hurt quite a bit more than Musk's trolling.

I'm still puzzled how we despise debt here - we do, right? - but still cheer debt-fueled speculation.


As much as anyone here, I love it when BTC goes up.  BTC (and you guys here at the forum) has been very good to me, and to my grandchildren.

But, suchmoon raises such a great point.  I loathe debt personally, but am perfectly happy with how (any?) debt could have fueled BTC's amazing run.  It is puzzling to me as well.

We'll see how it all turns out.  As someone wrote: "The next 48 hours are critical."  Or was that the next 72 hours?  The next two weeks?
OutOfMemory
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1638
Merit: 3309


Man who stares at charts (and stars, too...)


View Profile
June 07, 2021, 09:50:39 PM

That dump was quick.
Surprise, surprise...

It kinda just started.

Got stuck a little...
Pages: « 1 ... 28748 28749 28750 28751 28752 28753 28754 28755 28756 28757 28758 28759 28760 28761 28762 28763 28764 28765 28766 28767 28768 28769 28770 28771 28772 28773 28774 28775 28776 28777 28778 28779 28780 28781 28782 28783 28784 28785 28786 28787 28788 28789 28790 28791 28792 28793 28794 28795 28796 28797 [28798] 28799 28800 28801 28802 28803 28804 28805 28806 28807 28808 28809 28810 28811 28812 28813 28814 28815 28816 28817 28818 28819 28820 28821 28822 28823 28824 28825 28826 28827 28828 28829 28830 28831 28832 28833 28834 28835 28836 28837 28838 28839 28840 28841 28842 28843 28844 28845 28846 28847 28848 ... 33670 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!