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Question: How far will this leg take us?
$110K - 7 (8%)
$120K - 14 (16.1%)
$130K - 12 (13.8%)
$140K - 9 (10.3%)
$150K - 15 (17.2%)
$160K - 1 (1.1%)
$170K+ - 29 (33.3%)
Total Voters: 87

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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26796659 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 1 users with 9 merit deleted.)
ChartBuddy
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May 10, 2014, 05:00:54 PM


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JorgeStolfi
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May 10, 2014, 05:05:54 PM

I am only wondering, why all the bitcoin-media is not covering the shady history of this Brock Pierce guy?
Good question. Who supports that media, e.g. Coindesk? Not small investors, I would think... Perhaps some people with large MtGOX balances?   Tongue
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May 10, 2014, 05:12:59 PM
Last edit: May 10, 2014, 05:33:27 PM by hdbuck

I am only wondering, why all the bitcoin-media is not covering the shady history of this Brock Pierce guy?
Good question. Who supports that media, e.g. Coindesk? Not small investors, I would think... Perhaps some people with large MtGOX balances?   Tongue


wasnt he the guy that leaked Mtgox's "rescue" plan just before it went down?
oh and didnt he also threatened TBF in an open letter, talking about revealing to the world extra sensitive documents before eventually backing down?

edit: ah nope, my mistake, that was some dude called "two-bit idiot", at least for the latter.
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May 10, 2014, 05:17:24 PM

I would support the idea of a rehab of mt gox, not only so I could get some money invested back (I don't trust I would get much otherwise) but to support the chance of a new type of btc exchange creation. That is, if this new Gox 2.0 is indeed a new type of btc exchange, a transparent and very trustable exchange led by experts and no noname un-knowledgeable administrators.
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May 10, 2014, 05:35:09 PM

Any bets on the bottom for the weekend? I am hoping for 400 at least.
rpietila
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May 10, 2014, 05:36:39 PM

Any bets on the bottom for the weekend? I am hoping for 400 at least.

The dearth of sellers is palpable.
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May 10, 2014, 05:40:10 PM


Well, how much dividend will the MtGOX 2.0 shares pay per year, as percentage of investment?  

There is no way of estimating how much trade they would get.  Why would people trade there rather than at Bitstamp or other exchanges?  Why would people trust their dollars and bitcoins to people who have an even more, er, peculiar past than Mark?


In all honesty MtGox will have to raise the bar before trust can be restored, it is possible.

I'd give them a go if, and that is a big if they implemented Open-Transactions server for crypto and complied with the existing regulation for brokerage firms (not MF-Global style) with zero fractional reserve debt when dealing with fiat.

Otherwise it's just another scam 2.0 and will never take off.

My take at the moment is greed is still driving the Gox mess.
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May 10, 2014, 05:43:40 PM

if gox came back, it would likely be the best exchange out there. It would have a point to prove.
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May 10, 2014, 05:48:10 PM

if gox came back, it would likely be the best exchange out there. It would have a point to prove.

This is what everyone is hoping.
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May 10, 2014, 05:50:50 PM

if gox came back, it would likely be the best exchange out there. It would have a point to prove.

This is what everyone is hoping.

agree on that...and want to add "Karpeles go in 1x1 cell"

EDIT: instead of be driving around Tokyo in a LIMO that i probably paid for it Smiley
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May 10, 2014, 05:51:23 PM

if gox came back, it would likely be the best exchange out there. It would have a point to prove.

That's just it. It probably would be the best, simply because it had to be. I would look forward to that.
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May 10, 2014, 05:52:33 PM

if gox came back, it would likely be the best exchange out there. It would have a point to prove.
Not without 2 factor authentication OT style management for bid and ask side crypto. Without OT it is just a Martingale scam built on top of the previous one.
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May 10, 2014, 06:00:41 PM

guys let me ask something might sound stupid.....

let's think that savegox takes the Mt.Gox.com right?

You have to already have completed their form they have on savegox.com or the saving is for all the customers that MtGox.com has???
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May 10, 2014, 06:00:54 PM


Explanation
ElectricMucus
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May 10, 2014, 06:03:21 PM

Any gox comeback can only be hilarious, I mean devious. I mean HAVING OVERWHELMING AMOUNTS OF WEALTH and DEFINITELY SUCCEED IN THE LONG RUN.
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May 10, 2014, 06:46:09 PM

Any bets on the bottom for the weekend? I am hoping for 400 at least.

The dearth of sellers is palpable.

Same goes for volume. Does not mean much.
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May 10, 2014, 06:54:38 PM

Some of you are seriously cheering for a necro of mtgox?

Just know that you'll deserve any and all of the abuse you're going to get if that piece of shit exchange gets a second chance.

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May 10, 2014, 06:57:08 PM

How MtGOX's depositors' claims would be computed under US liquidation laws:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=587295.msg6644323#msg6644323

If that holds for Japanese laws too, it has important implications for the MtGOX liquidation vs. ressurection issue.  I can see that some clients would strongly want one way rather than the other.


Probably the best way to predict how the Japanese court would evaluate the value of the bitcoins would be to use some Japanese precedent, rather than American precedent. 

Yet if the precedent is unclear, and the calculation of value would cause inequitable results, then stakeholders can propose other value calculating methodologies.  Certainly a lot of stakeholders would like to receive their value from GOX in whatever asset that it was held.  So if they had bitcoins in GOX, then they should get bitcoin back.  If they held fiat in GOX, then they should get fiat back... and the ratio of how much they get back would depend upon the total solvency of GOX.   A liquidation would likely get them less than 20% of their holdings; however, a rehabilitation would have the potential of recovering a higher percentage, over time (even though possibly the initial payoff amount may be low with a rehab).

Personally, to me, it does NOT make any sense to pay off stakeholders in any other currency (or asset) other than what they were holding or to attempt to value it in any way - b/c some stakeholders were choosing (on their own - maybe somewhat coerced on the circumstances) to trade btc and fiat.

It doesn't make much sense to me either, but this is the law in many countries.


No matter what, arguments can be made and presented to the court to suggest more equitable ways to proceed forward, and there would be a whole hell-of-a lot of more flexibility in a rehabilitation arrangement to structure the settlement in the most fair and agreeable way.   The more that the court is forced to supervise the outcome, the less work that it wants to do.  The more the court is involved in overseeing the outcome, the more the proposed plan will need to address and to resolve details that could result in future controversy and to finalize the matter.



ChartBuddy
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May 10, 2014, 07:00:56 PM


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May 10, 2014, 07:17:26 PM

Certainly a lot of stakeholders would like to receive their value from GOX in whatever asset that it was held.  So if they had bitcoins in GOX, then they should get bitcoin back.  If they held fiat in GOX, then they should get fiat back... and the ratio of how much they get back would depend upon the total solvency of GOX.
I don't think that any court would find that reasonable.  Even if they viewed bitcoin as currency, rather than property, they would rather convert all assets to the national legal currency at current market rates, then pay the creditors in that currency according to the currency value of their claim.  They would see it as unjustified complication to return debts in different currencies. (Just think of how bitcoin payments would be recorded in the liquidation proceedings.) If an euro is worth 300 yen now, why would a creditor be unhappy to get 300 yen instead of an euro?  If a creditor is due 10'000$ for 100 kg of fish delivered to MtGOX, should the liquidator be obliged to give him back 20 kg of fish instead of 2000$?

But that comment is about another question, that makes a LOT of difference. Suppose that clients X and Y deposited 100 BTC each when the price was 10$, client Z deposited 100 BTC when the price was 1000$, and then client X (only) traded inside MtGOX until he had 300 BTC, and withdrew 100 BTC when the price was 1000$, leaving 200 BTC in the exchange.  Under the "final MtGOX account balance" interpretation, with current price 500$, their claims would be

  X = 200 BTC x 500 = 100'000 $
  Y = 100 BTC x 500 = 50'000 $
  Z = 100 BTC x 500 = 50'000 $

so X would get twice as much refund as Y or Z.  On the other hand, under the US law interpretation as described in that post, their claims would be:

  X = 100 BTC x 10, minus 100 BTC x 1000 = minus 99'000$ = lucky bastard, no claim.
  Y = 100 BTC x 10 = 1000 $
  Z = 100 BTC x 1000 = 100'000 $

so X would get nothing, and Z would get 100 times as much as Y.

So THAT is one big difference between the Sunlot plan and liquidation.

What I said is definitely as reasonable and possibly more reasonable than what you are describing. 

The exchange kept operating.  Accordingly, whatever balance was on the books at the time of the closing should be a relevant and important fact.  As we know BTC prices have been highly volatile, which is another reason to reimburse in BTC, if that is what was held by the customer at the time of GOX's closing.  I'm sure that these kinds of proposals can be made, and the court may be convinced that converting the assets may NOT bring the most equitable results  - even though it may be  more simple to calculate. 

I agree with you that (and I made a similar point in an earlier post) there may be less latitude to formulate the calculation of value methodologies if the court decides that the outcome will remain a form of standard liquidation.











A liquidation would likely get them less than 20% of their holdings; however, a rehabilitation would have the potential of recovering a higher percentage, over time (even though possibly the initial payoff amount may be low with a rehab).
A liquidation would return to the clients some amount X that they can invest any way they like, including in MtGOX 2.0 if they want to.  The Sunlot plan would return them less than X and force them to invest the remainder in MtGOX 2.0, with no option to get out.  I still don't see how this can be better than that.


It is better whenever there is an outcome that is more agreeable to a larger number of people - standard utilitarian calculations, as you should understand such.

You seem to keep arguing for liquidation as if that brings the best value for everyone, yet you seem to be failing to account for the various arguments of the Gox customers.  Yes, I realize that there are more than 100K GOX customers with various stakes; however, there needs to be some considerations on how to best make them whole and how they would like to proceed.  If the previous customers would prefer to take their chances with a new GOX, then the court will need to consider that.





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