Bitcoin Forum
June 21, 2024, 06:01:52 PM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 27.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Poll
Question: What happens first:
New ATH - 43 (69.4%)
<$60,000 - 19 (30.6%)
Total Voters: 62

Pages: « 1 ... 6294 6295 6296 6297 6298 6299 6300 6301 6302 6303 6304 6305 6306 6307 6308 6309 6310 6311 6312 6313 6314 6315 6316 6317 6318 6319 6320 6321 6322 6323 6324 6325 6326 6327 6328 6329 6330 6331 6332 6333 6334 6335 6336 6337 6338 6339 6340 6341 6342 6343 [6344] 6345 6346 6347 6348 6349 6350 6351 6352 6353 6354 6355 6356 6357 6358 6359 6360 6361 6362 6363 6364 6365 6366 6367 6368 6369 6370 6371 6372 6373 6374 6375 6376 6377 6378 6379 6380 6381 6382 6383 6384 6385 6386 6387 6388 6389 6390 6391 6392 6393 6394 ... 33468 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26404381 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 3 users with 9 merit deleted.)
oda.krell
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1470
Merit: 1007



View Profile
May 10, 2014, 06:54:38 PM

Some of you are seriously cheering for a necro of mtgox?

Just know that you'll deserve any and all of the abuse you're going to get if that piece of shit exchange gets a second chance.

JayJuanGee
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3752
Merit: 10424


Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"


View Profile
May 10, 2014, 06:57:08 PM

How MtGOX's depositors' claims would be computed under US liquidation laws:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=587295.msg6644323#msg6644323

If that holds for Japanese laws too, it has important implications for the MtGOX liquidation vs. ressurection issue.  I can see that some clients would strongly want one way rather than the other.


Probably the best way to predict how the Japanese court would evaluate the value of the bitcoins would be to use some Japanese precedent, rather than American precedent. 

Yet if the precedent is unclear, and the calculation of value would cause inequitable results, then stakeholders can propose other value calculating methodologies.  Certainly a lot of stakeholders would like to receive their value from GOX in whatever asset that it was held.  So if they had bitcoins in GOX, then they should get bitcoin back.  If they held fiat in GOX, then they should get fiat back... and the ratio of how much they get back would depend upon the total solvency of GOX.   A liquidation would likely get them less than 20% of their holdings; however, a rehabilitation would have the potential of recovering a higher percentage, over time (even though possibly the initial payoff amount may be low with a rehab).

Personally, to me, it does NOT make any sense to pay off stakeholders in any other currency (or asset) other than what they were holding or to attempt to value it in any way - b/c some stakeholders were choosing (on their own - maybe somewhat coerced on the circumstances) to trade btc and fiat.

It doesn't make much sense to me either, but this is the law in many countries.


No matter what, arguments can be made and presented to the court to suggest more equitable ways to proceed forward, and there would be a whole hell-of-a lot of more flexibility in a rehabilitation arrangement to structure the settlement in the most fair and agreeable way.   The more that the court is forced to supervise the outcome, the less work that it wants to do.  The more the court is involved in overseeing the outcome, the more the proposed plan will need to address and to resolve details that could result in future controversy and to finalize the matter.



ChartBuddy
Legendary
*
Online Online

Activity: 2212
Merit: 1779


1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ


View Profile
May 10, 2014, 07:00:56 PM


Explanation
JayJuanGee
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3752
Merit: 10424


Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"


View Profile
May 10, 2014, 07:17:26 PM

Certainly a lot of stakeholders would like to receive their value from GOX in whatever asset that it was held.  So if they had bitcoins in GOX, then they should get bitcoin back.  If they held fiat in GOX, then they should get fiat back... and the ratio of how much they get back would depend upon the total solvency of GOX.
I don't think that any court would find that reasonable.  Even if they viewed bitcoin as currency, rather than property, they would rather convert all assets to the national legal currency at current market rates, then pay the creditors in that currency according to the currency value of their claim.  They would see it as unjustified complication to return debts in different currencies. (Just think of how bitcoin payments would be recorded in the liquidation proceedings.) If an euro is worth 300 yen now, why would a creditor be unhappy to get 300 yen instead of an euro?  If a creditor is due 10'000$ for 100 kg of fish delivered to MtGOX, should the liquidator be obliged to give him back 20 kg of fish instead of 2000$?

But that comment is about another question, that makes a LOT of difference. Suppose that clients X and Y deposited 100 BTC each when the price was 10$, client Z deposited 100 BTC when the price was 1000$, and then client X (only) traded inside MtGOX until he had 300 BTC, and withdrew 100 BTC when the price was 1000$, leaving 200 BTC in the exchange.  Under the "final MtGOX account balance" interpretation, with current price 500$, their claims would be

  X = 200 BTC x 500 = 100'000 $
  Y = 100 BTC x 500 = 50'000 $
  Z = 100 BTC x 500 = 50'000 $

so X would get twice as much refund as Y or Z.  On the other hand, under the US law interpretation as described in that post, their claims would be:

  X = 100 BTC x 10, minus 100 BTC x 1000 = minus 99'000$ = lucky bastard, no claim.
  Y = 100 BTC x 10 = 1000 $
  Z = 100 BTC x 1000 = 100'000 $

so X would get nothing, and Z would get 100 times as much as Y.

So THAT is one big difference between the Sunlot plan and liquidation.

What I said is definitely as reasonable and possibly more reasonable than what you are describing. 

The exchange kept operating.  Accordingly, whatever balance was on the books at the time of the closing should be a relevant and important fact.  As we know BTC prices have been highly volatile, which is another reason to reimburse in BTC, if that is what was held by the customer at the time of GOX's closing.  I'm sure that these kinds of proposals can be made, and the court may be convinced that converting the assets may NOT bring the most equitable results  - even though it may be  more simple to calculate. 

I agree with you that (and I made a similar point in an earlier post) there may be less latitude to formulate the calculation of value methodologies if the court decides that the outcome will remain a form of standard liquidation.











A liquidation would likely get them less than 20% of their holdings; however, a rehabilitation would have the potential of recovering a higher percentage, over time (even though possibly the initial payoff amount may be low with a rehab).
A liquidation would return to the clients some amount X that they can invest any way they like, including in MtGOX 2.0 if they want to.  The Sunlot plan would return them less than X and force them to invest the remainder in MtGOX 2.0, with no option to get out.  I still don't see how this can be better than that.


It is better whenever there is an outcome that is more agreeable to a larger number of people - standard utilitarian calculations, as you should understand such.

You seem to keep arguing for liquidation as if that brings the best value for everyone, yet you seem to be failing to account for the various arguments of the Gox customers.  Yes, I realize that there are more than 100K GOX customers with various stakes; however, there needs to be some considerations on how to best make them whole and how they would like to proceed.  If the previous customers would prefer to take their chances with a new GOX, then the court will need to consider that.





JayJuanGee
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3752
Merit: 10424


Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"


View Profile
May 10, 2014, 07:19:45 PM

A liquidation would return to the clients some amount X that they can invest any way they like, including in MtGOX 2.0 if they want to.  The Sunlot plan would return them less than X and force them to invest the remainder in MtGOX 2.0, with no option to get out.  I still don't see how this can be better than that.

I'm guessing with the Sunlot plan, the clients have a small chance to get back their entire account. At least in a long time. And that is probably better than getting back only 20% or less (zero according to some here)

The problem is that the court would make this decision for the customers - and apparently few were consulted and truly support Gox 2.0

Courts are NOT going to take a vote, but they will allow for stakeholders to submit their arguments.  Most courts consider it their obligation to look after the interests of minority or non-vocal stakeholders, as well.
klee
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1498
Merit: 1000



View Profile
May 10, 2014, 07:21:32 PM

Can we stop discussing about MtGox and/or Karpeles? EVER??

Thx...
JayJuanGee
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3752
Merit: 10424


Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"


View Profile
May 10, 2014, 07:27:10 PM

I'm guessing with the Sunlot plan, the clients have a small chance to get back their entire account. At least in a long time.
That is just spin.  They propose to give back (say) 10% of the assets and force clients to invest the other 10% into MtGOX2.0, and will count their share of whatever profit that MtGOX2.0 may make as the payment of the other 90%.  Why is that better than giving clients the full 20%, so that they can invest those same 10% into Apple stock instead?  The clients will surely recover their 90% back much faster this way.

You keep asking the same question over and over, as if you know the answer, and you keep suggesting the best answer, also. 

The answer is going to vary with customers, and likely many customers would prefer to recover more than to recover less, but the devil is in the details, and hopefully, the court will take those considerations into account.  IN the end, the court may impose something that the court believes is best for the situation as a whole (and maybe best for the court), which may NOT necessarily mean that customers get their whole payment back right away or may mean that customers are stuck with some equity stock.
TooDumbForBitcoin
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1638
Merit: 1001



View Profile
May 10, 2014, 07:38:40 PM

if gox came back, it would likely be the best exchange out there. It would have a point to prove.

That's just it. It probably would be the best, simply because it had to be. I would look forward to that.

Sounds logical ... Newsweek is a great example of coming back better than ever, because they had to.
JorgeStolfi
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 910
Merit: 1003



View Profile
May 10, 2014, 07:42:33 PM

if gox came back, it would likely be the best exchange out there. It would have a point to prove.

That's just it. It probably would be the best, simply because it had to be. I would look forward to that.
Yeah. Mark deserves a second third fourth whatever chance.
JorgeStolfi
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 910
Merit: 1003



View Profile
May 10, 2014, 07:51:47 PM

Can we stop discussing about MtGox and/or Karpeles? EVER??
Thx...
Sorry, agreed. There are at leas two threads on this specific topic:
SaveGox.com
More proof that savegox.com is a sham.
ChartBuddy
Legendary
*
Online Online

Activity: 2212
Merit: 1779


1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ


View Profile
May 10, 2014, 08:00:53 PM


Explanation
dreamspark
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 798
Merit: 1000


View Profile
May 10, 2014, 08:24:48 PM

Some of you are seriously cheering for a necro of mtgox?

Just know that you'll deserve any and all of the abuse you're going to get if that piece of shit exchange gets a second chance.



Yep, just why I don't get. Just take your 20% and let it die. Open a criminal investigation and find out what actually happened and close the case.
BitChick
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1148
Merit: 1001


View Profile
May 10, 2014, 08:45:21 PM

So any ideas what this "Big thing" and "#ToTheMoon"  tweet by Bitpay is all about?

https://twitter.com/BitPay/status/465206481474686976

rpietila
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036



View Profile
May 10, 2014, 08:46:56 PM

Any bets on the bottom for the weekend? I am hoping for 400 at least.

The dearth of sellers is palpable.

Same goes for volume. Does not mean much.

The downtrend has been in force due to sellers overriding buyers. If the volume dries up, it is because the sellers are exhausted. The price is nascent despite the low volume. I would abstain from shorting here.

The trailing 4-week change is positive first time since February. My last call of 435 bottom was off by $14.87 so let's try to call another one here.



kryptopojken
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 767
Merit: 532


View Profile
May 10, 2014, 08:53:58 PM

Can we stop discussing about MtGox and/or Karpeles? EVER??

Thx...


agreed, let it rest in "peace"
cbeast
Donator
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1736
Merit: 1006

Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


View Profile
May 10, 2014, 08:57:18 PM

So any ideas what this "Big thing" and "#ToTheMoon"  tweet by Bitpay is all about?

https://twitter.com/BitPay/status/465206481474686976


kryptopojken
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 767
Merit: 532


View Profile
May 10, 2014, 08:58:08 PM

So any ideas what this "Big thing" and "#ToTheMoon"  tweet by Bitpay is all about?

https://twitter.com/BitPay/status/465206481474686976



their business kinda depends on the moon-ness of bitcoin
ChartBuddy
Legendary
*
Online Online

Activity: 2212
Merit: 1779


1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ


View Profile
May 10, 2014, 09:00:53 PM


Explanation
gentlemand
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2590
Merit: 3014


Welt Am Draht


View Profile
May 10, 2014, 09:01:05 PM

And if anyone's placed to help it happen it's them.
BitchicksHusband
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 378
Merit: 255


View Profile
May 10, 2014, 09:29:21 PM

So any ideas what this "Big thing" and "#ToTheMoon"  tweet by Bitpay is all about?

https://twitter.com/BitPay/status/465206481474686976



They followed up with this video, but I don't know if this is it.

Purse IO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B5bM8X-sLM

Basically, Purse.IO has you add items to your Amazon wishlist and offer to pay for them in Bitcoin at a 10%-15% discount.  Then, people in countries where bitcoins are not readily available like China and India sign in and buy the items for you and have them shipped to you.

When you get the items, your bitcoins are sent to the foreign buyer.  You get cheaper items.  They get an easy way to buy bitcoins in a country where it's not easy.
Pages: « 1 ... 6294 6295 6296 6297 6298 6299 6300 6301 6302 6303 6304 6305 6306 6307 6308 6309 6310 6311 6312 6313 6314 6315 6316 6317 6318 6319 6320 6321 6322 6323 6324 6325 6326 6327 6328 6329 6330 6331 6332 6333 6334 6335 6336 6337 6338 6339 6340 6341 6342 6343 [6344] 6345 6346 6347 6348 6349 6350 6351 6352 6353 6354 6355 6356 6357 6358 6359 6360 6361 6362 6363 6364 6365 6366 6367 6368 6369 6370 6371 6372 6373 6374 6375 6376 6377 6378 6379 6380 6381 6382 6383 6384 6385 6386 6387 6388 6389 6390 6391 6392 6393 6394 ... 33468 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!