Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[Schickeria]

Are the deposits on circle are holded in BTC or fiat?

depends what you deposit i guess.

My English is lacking, hm?

Another trial:

I hold BTC or Fiat on a circle Account? You know what I mean? I guess BTC, but want to be sure.

it is my understanding that circle accounts can hold BTC or Fiat(of any color), and you are free to switch back and forth at anytime, I'm guessing they won't let you do bitcoin trading with this account... its probably part of their policy that it the service should not be used to day trade bitcoin.

I don't want to trade, I only want to send a medium amount of Bitcoins to my Circle Account. It irritates me that there are coming up messages like "you received xxxx.xx $ and not xx BTC. So it's only a reference value in USD and in conclusion nothing more than another form of a Bitcoin wallet or are they converting BTC to USD on entrance (and therefore I hold USD)?

[empowering]

Now imagine a magical land where electricity is funnelled from state-owned factories and rigs are just another hidden operating expense. How much does it cost to mine a bitcoin there?

Imagine a land where they have an excess of children, with abacuses, all mining by hand with their abaci.
 (they have got dab radio to keep them going powered by geothermal of course)

Just saying the way I see it we will have a constant supply of very cheap coins from China for the forseeable future as no price is too low to sell free coins...

It has been suggested that this is indeed happening in China (I guess it could happen anywhere...). Heck, you work in the IT dept of a state owned industry and plug a few miners into their power supply. Chances of getting caught must be close to zero - just another black box with a fan. You could probably bill them for the mining equipment too  

At this point I really can't see any other explanation

sorry... did I misunderstand... you mean covert non state funded, but using the states resources, in China? as opposed to the state doing it themselves?

Interesting thought, though they would have to be pretty sure of not getting caught... it is not uncommon to for people to disappear and never be seen again in China, but if you are talking more on a triad level.. then I guess it is a potential.

Ever charged your mobile phone at work ??
Ever met anyone in front office who has a clue about IT infrastructure? There are a few , but not many ...
Very easy to do IMO. No need for Triads, but that adds another sinister dimension so lets roll with it - Triad Manipulators  

Have you ever been to China? sure they have criminals, prisons full of them, but the average guy is not so gun ho for fucking with the machine, not unless they KNOW there is very very little chance of them getting caught...


Sure people might charge their cell phones at work, but we are talking about an industry that has got farms popping up like this (this one s in China edit actually HK to be precise)

=




I cannot imagine being able to plug this into work and have no one notice.

A few BFL machines hidden in the sever room is not going to cut it.

Now farms run by organised crime, that have literally hacked into and tapped a mains line somewhere...somewhere where it would not raise any eyebrows (like grow operations have been known to do) that I can imagine (if we are talking about this happening on a big scale, big enough to have an effect on the market, and if we are not, then it is more the guys with the farms like in the pic above, and the guys running on geothermal in europe, that are going to have an actual effect on the market (even if DIY small timers were saving a few extra bucks on the sparks, and there was a few of them, with a few machines hooked up here and there,  sooner or later they are going to be out maneuvered.)

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

Now imagine a magical land where electricity is funnelled from state-owned factories and rigs are just another hidden operating expense. How much does it cost to mine a bitcoin there?

Imagine a land where they have an excess of children, with abacuses, all mining by hand with their abaci.
 (they have got dab radio to keep them going powered by geothermal of course)

Just saying the way I see it we will have a constant supply of very cheap coins from China for the forseeable future as no price is too low to sell free coins...

It has been suggested that this is indeed happening in China (I guess it could happen anywhere...). Heck, you work in the IT dept of a state owned industry and plug a few miners into their power supply. Chances of getting caught must be close to zero - just another black box with a fan. You could probably bill them for the mining equipment too  

At this point I really can't see any other explanation

sorry... did I misunderstand... you mean covert non state funded, but using the states resources, in China? as opposed to the state doing it themselves?

Interesting thought, though they would have to be pretty sure of not getting caught... it is not uncommon to for people to disappear and never be seen again in China, but if you are talking more on a triad level.. then I guess it is a potential.

Ever charged your mobile phone at work ??
Ever met anyone in front office who has a clue about IT infrastructure? There are a few , but not many ...
Very easy to do IMO. No need for Triads, but that adds another sinister dimension so lets roll with it - Triad Manipulators  

Have you ever been to China? sure they have criminals, prisons full of them, but the average guy is not so gun ho for fucking with the machine, not unless they KNOW there is very very little chance of them getting caught...


Sure people might charge their cell phones at work, but we are talking about an industry that has got farms popping up like this (this one s in China)

=




I cannot imagine being able to plug this into work and have no one notice.

A few BFL machines hidden in the sever room is not going to cut it.

Now farms run by organised crime, that have literally hacked into and tapped a mains line somewhere...somewhere where it would not raise any eyebrows (like grow operations have been known to do) that I can imagine (if we are talking about this happening on a big scale, big enough to have an effect on the market, and if we are not, then it is more the guys with the farms like in the pic above, and the guys running on geothermal in europe, that are going to have an actual effect on the market (even if DIY small timers were saving a few extra bucks on the sparks, and there was a few of them, with a few machines hooked up here and there,  sooner or later they are going to be out maneuvered.)

Good point

[adamstgBit]

Are the deposits on circle are holded in BTC or fiat?

depends what you deposit i guess.

My English is lacking, hm?

Another trial:

I hold BTC or Fiat on a circle Account? You know what I mean? I guess BTC, but want to be sure.

it is my understanding that circle accounts can hold BTC or Fiat(of any color), and you are free to switch back and forth at anytime, I'm guessing they won't let you do bitcoin trading with this account... its probably part of their policy that it the service should not be used to day trade bitcoin.

I don't want to trade, I only want to send a medium amount of Bitcoins to my Circle Account. It irritates me that there are coming up messages like "you received xxxx.xx $ and not xx BTC. So it's only a reference value in USD and in conclusion nothing more than another form of a Bitcoin wallet or are they converting BTC to USD on entrance?

i have no idea how they balance their books.

but yes the site will always display your balance in $ terms, they feel its easier for new users to see their balance in their local currency.

must be depressing sending bitcoin over there today and watching your balance fall 9%  

[Schickeria]

Oh god, I'm too heavy drunken. Better I stop making withdrawals.

[phoenix1]

One problem I have with this is the assumption that big miners are in it for BTC and not fiat. I don't know everyone's motives but I am sure that for some it is an opportunistic business model (ie buy ASIC's, mine, sell, profit). As such what gives is price and it's a race to the bottom in terms of who has the cheapest electricity. Hardware is a sunk cost now, so it makes sense to continue to mine as long as your electicity costs less than than you can sell the BTC for, even if that means just minimising losses (on sunk costs), for all those miners whose goal is not to accumulate BTC.

We hear many times that miners will just hoard or switch off and buy instead. IMO only those that are true believers and not in it for fiat will do so. The rest will get what they can out of their equipment while they can. Many a bad investment decision has been made in the past and will be in the future in many industries. Why this mythical illusion that BTC is so different?

It looks very much like mining bubble to me

EDIT : In conclusion is it not a perfectly reasonable proposition that difficulty could nosedive to match current price as inefficient miners who are in it for fiat simply switch off their hardware at some point and exit the game or wait for their equipment to become profitable again, if ever? The assumption that they will simply buy BTC instead seems deeply flawed. Meanwhile the BTC inflation rate (supply) will remain constant. In the absence of new demand where does price go ?

I agree that the idea that miners 'start buying' is deeply flawed but when mining becomes unprofitable they will stop mining, supply will be reduced and the price will stabilise.  Is this not part of the big "Satoshi Plan" of checks and balances for the functioning of BTC anyway; at the moment we have a confluence of negative factors: too much supply and negative sentiment due to Gox, Neo et al.

When the miners stop the flow of coins the price will find equilibrium and sentiment will return with a stable price.

Simples.

No ... until the next halving, supply is a constant no matter how many miners mine or what the hash rate is. The unprofitable miners will stop mining, maybe, but that has no effect on the BTC inflation/emission rate, which remains a constant until the next halving regardless of how many miners there are. Whatever the hash rate, the same number of BTC will be mined in the same time (excluding small variance between difficulty adjustments). This is a fundamental part of the BTC protocol - the emission rate is a constant until the 'halvings'


Supply is fixed in this equation, re how many BTC are mined. The variables are difficulty and hash rate, but these have no effect on supply, just on profitability of miners.

If every other miner shut down and you and I could mine the (approx) 3600 BTC per day on laptops once the difficulty rapidly adjusted downwards.

Sure, the network would be massively open to a 51% attack, but I am taking it to en extreme to demonstrate what I believe is a poorly understood function of the BTC supply/demand equilibrium

We'd better get the entire 21M of the buggers mined then and get things simplified then.

And therein lies the problem ... the emission rate is mapped out in advance and an intrinsic part of the protocol ... no way to speed it up without a hard fork. Actually, speeding it up would make things worse right now. Hence the focus on the block reward halving in 2016 (from 25 to 12.5 BTC per block I believe) as a catalyst for the next rally ... LESS SUPPLY !!

[adamstgBit]

Oh god, I'm too heavy drunken. Better I stop making withdrawals.

that reminds me, i need a Fing drink!

[phoenix1]

Have you ever been to China? sure they have criminals, prisons full of them, but the average guy is not so gun ho for fucking with the machine, not unless they KNOW there is very very little chance of them getting caught...


Sure people might charge their cell phones at work, but we are talking about an industry that has got farms popping up like this (this one s in China edit actually HK to be precise)

=




I cannot imagine being able to plug this into work and have no one notice.

A few BFL machines hidden in the sever room is not going to cut it.

Now farms run by organised crime, that have literally hacked into and tapped a mains line somewhere...somewhere where it would not raise any eyebrows (like grow operations have been known to do) that I can imagine (if we are talking about this happening on a big scale, big enough to have an effect on the market, and if we are not, then it is more the guys with the farms like in the pic above, and the guys running on geothermal in europe, that are going to have an actual effect on the market (even if DIY small timers were saving a few extra bucks on the sparks, and there was a few of them, with a few machines hooked up here and there,  sooner or later they are going to be out maneuvered.)

Why your phone so BIG !!

Yeh, be pretty hard to sneak this in in your lunch box ...

[TheJuice]

Hope you all bought at <325 today. We are about to EXPLODE.

[hyphymikey]

Are the deposits on circle are holded in BTC or fiat?

depends what you deposit i guess.

My English is lacking, hm?

Another trial:

I hold BTC or Fiat on a circle Account? You know what I mean? I guess BTC, but want to be sure.

it is my understanding that circle accounts can hold BTC or Fiat(of any color), and you are free to switch back and forth at anytime, I'm guessing they won't let you do bitcoin trading with this account... its probably part of their policy that it the service should not be used to day trade bitcoin.

The second you send money to circle it is converted to BTC. You cannot sent USD to circle and then place a bid. They have no bids or asks. When you send BTC there is it held until you market sell, when you send USD it automatically converts to BTC. Therefore all holdings are in BTC.

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[Schickeria]

Are the deposits on circle are holded in BTC or fiat?

depends what you deposit i guess.

My English is lacking, hm?

Another trial:

I hold BTC or Fiat on a circle Account? You know what I mean? I guess BTC, but want to be sure.

it is my understanding that circle accounts can hold BTC or Fiat(of any color), and you are free to switch back and forth at anytime, I'm guessing they won't let you do bitcoin trading with this account... its probably part of their policy that it the service should not be used to day trade bitcoin.

The second you send money to circle it is converted to BTC. You cannot sent USD to circle and then place a bid. They have no bids or asks. When you send BTC there is it held until you market sell, when you send USD it automatically converts to BTC. Therefore all holdings are in BTC.

Thanks.

You want a Tequila for this info? 

[dyland]

Well it was an interesting ride--learned a lot, and hopefully spared from future speculations that would have gone bad.

Will still have my eye on BTC, but full fiat now.

--2011, the year I learned about BTC
--2014, the year I bought and mined BTC, but obsessed about it, lost money, etc.

Perspective is a funny thing.

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

Hope you all bought at <325 today. We are about to EXPLODE.

Like a Dido song?

[adamstgBit]

new speculation : the fall the past few days has been due to circle users sending there bitcoin there to easily top off their bank accounts.

[empowering]

Hope you all bought at <325 today. We are about to EXPLODE.

[empowering]

Why your phone so BIG !!

 

[mccoyspace]

Well it was an interesting ride--learned a lot, and hopefully spared from future speculations that would have gone bad.

Will still have my eye on BTC, but full fiat now.

--2011, the year I learned about BTC
--2014, the year I bought and mined BTC, but obsessed about it, lost money, etc.

Perspective is a funny thing.

you waited a year too long.

[hyphymikey]

Are the deposits on circle are holded in BTC or fiat?

depends what you deposit i guess.

My English is lacking, hm?

Another trial:

I hold BTC or Fiat on a circle Account? You know what I mean? I guess BTC, but want to be sure.

it is my understanding that circle accounts can hold BTC or Fiat(of any color), and you are free to switch back and forth at anytime, I'm guessing they won't let you do bitcoin trading with this account... its probably part of their policy that it the service should not be used to day trade bitcoin.

The second you send money to circle it is converted to BTC. You cannot sent USD to circle and then place a bid. They have no bids or asks. When you send BTC there is it held until you market sell, when you send USD it automatically converts to BTC. Therefore all holdings are in BTC.

Thanks.

You want a Tequila for this info? 

I love tequila! But just pay it forward!

[adamstgBit]

Well it was an interesting ride--learned a lot, and hopefully spared from future speculations that would have gone bad.

Will still have my eye on BTC, but full fiat now.

--2011, the year I learned about BTC
--2014, the year I bought and mined BTC, but obsessed about it, lost money, etc.

Perspective is a funny thing.

you waited a year too long.

nonsense

its never too late to join the revolution