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Question: What happens first:
New ATH - 43 (69.4%)
<$60,000 - 19 (30.6%)
Total Voters: 62

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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26387790 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 3 users with 9 merit deleted.)
shanecoins
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November 15, 2014, 02:12:58 PM

boring
NotLambchop
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November 15, 2014, 02:14:35 PM

Here comes another clown......

You seem upset, Tiger, whassamatter?  Went long and got owned?

Phillis
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November 15, 2014, 02:15:23 PM

Here comes another clown......

You seem upset, Tiger, what's the matter?  Went long and got owned?



no one goes long without strict stop losses anyways, so moot point
zakalwe
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November 15, 2014, 02:15:32 PM

Getting nervous, boy?

Anyway, too much time spent on this worthless "chat".

Now try and be serious, if you can. For bitcoin sake.

Me, I'm turning my attention back to my own business.


Cheers.
Chang Hum
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November 15, 2014, 02:19:18 PM

Getting nervous, boy?


nervous why? please can you try and clarify what you're getting at,  you're an extremely confusing individual to have a chat with as I'm not entirely sure you understand what you're thinking yourself, so when you try and translate that across with words it comes off terribly.



Me, I'm turning my attention back to my own business.


of putting little boys penises in your mouth.
NotLambchop
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November 15, 2014, 02:20:50 PM

Here comes another clown......

You seem upset, Tiger, what's the matter?  Went long and got owned?



no one goes long without strict stop losses anyways, so moot point

Wat?  Stoploss is for stupit bears.  This d00d's the real deal, a true believer!

NotLambchop
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November 15, 2014, 02:21:58 PM

...
Me, I'm turning my attention back to my own business.
...

Enjoy playing Minecraft, Tiger!
NotLambchop
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November 15, 2014, 02:24:30 PM

razorramon
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November 15, 2014, 02:26:56 PM

looks like the attempt to break to the downside is not successfull...no real sell off...i expected a huge drop if we go below 380...asks are also not following...
rebuilder
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November 15, 2014, 02:28:38 PM

So where's Adam, anyway? This thread is mostly a long list of "this user is currently ignored" for me, these days...
abercrombie
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November 15, 2014, 02:29:54 PM

Only Adam can save us.   Shocked
NotLambchop
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November 15, 2014, 02:30:01 PM

looks like the attempt to break to the downside is not successfull...no real sell off...i expected a huge drop if we go below 380...asks are also not following...

Dunno.  Seems to be going fine Smiley

JorgeStolfi
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November 15, 2014, 02:30:34 PM

tell me what is the value of a global scale value ledger which can only be changed a consensus of its participants and is immune to any other intervention? additionally this ledger also has a function and is scarce.

But bitcoins are not equity in the bitcoin network.  Buying one bitcoin does not make you owner of a fraction of its hashpower. At any time, the bitcoin miners could abandon the Satoshi20090103 blockchain for any other coin with similar protocol that is more profitable to mine; and bitcoin owners will not have any say in it.

Units of accounting in the unspent transaction outputs in the longest branch of the Satoshi20090103 blockchain (aka "bitcoins") are indeed scarce, as long as Gavin and the miners refrain from changing the protocol; but there is a potentially infinite number of blockchains with the same properties.

If, at some time in the future, a better altcoin comes along (say, with a 0.1 second mean confirmation time, or a distributed trustless way to seize and return stolen bitcoins), and takes over the bitcoin "market", there will be no central bank to swap old bitcoins for new ones at a fixed rate.  Some owners of old bitcoins may be able to sell them to suckers in exchange for new ones, before they become worthless; but many will inevitably lose the money that they invested in BTC.

Bitcoin mining is currently financed by an "inflation tax" of 5-10% per year.  At some point, that inflation will stop and the miners will start to require transaction fees.  No one knows how much those fees will be, but mining is already an oligopoly market so a cartel of 2-3 mining companies can set the fees to whatever gives them maximum net revenue.  By the way, those fees will apply to every transaction, including hotwallet-coldwallet moves, BTC deposits and withdrawals, etc..

at this point of time the market capitalization is 0,05% of the gold market cap....

The "market cap" is pretty meaningless for bitcoin, because most of the 13 million extant BTC were never traded, or were last traded for a very small fraction of the current price; and the market has little liquidity.  If all the current owners of Apple stock decided to sell everything within a month, they would find plenty of eager buyers, and the total dollar amount of those sales would be close to the market cap.  If the same happened to bitcoin, the price would plummet to unpredictable lows, and the total sales volume would be a very small fraction of its nominal market cap.
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November 15, 2014, 02:31:44 PM


9
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Moooooon time!
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November 15, 2014, 02:31:48 PM


close you could fairly say I'm describing a lot of penny stocks, however a typical stocks value isn't an arbitrary figure as a profitable company adds value to the stock in terms of re-investing in the underlying business and to share holders in the form of dividends.

When there *are* dividends, it is possible to fairly value a stock but when there are not and the price is based on reinvestment, you may be using some similar indicators to value a company but you are still basically relying on "greater fool".
LFC_Bitcoin
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November 15, 2014, 02:32:27 PM


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Moooooon time!


Apart from the fact we're currently going down.
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November 15, 2014, 02:35:59 PM

LOL, this is hopping back to $385/$390 so quick.. way oversold.  
wmr42393
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November 15, 2014, 02:38:31 PM


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Moooooon time!


Apart from the fact we're currently going down.

Erdogan
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November 15, 2014, 02:41:18 PM

Why are there people so damn desperate to keep the price below 400? What are they afraid of? What do they want?

Most people purchase Bitcoins in the speculative hope they can later profit by selling them at a higher price to other market participants. As it's mathematically impossible for this to continue ad infinitum it's foolish to think you can continue to make money at the expense of other market participants (of which you yourselves are among) beyond the peak of adoption.

Once adoption rates have peaked, which they more than likely did last year, there's little left but a massive downside caused by an imbalance of those wishing to cash out vs new money coming in from those wishing to speculate on further price rises.  As the imbalance becomes more apparent new adopters are likely to become fewer and fewer thus escalating the downside.

As more people start to realize risk/reward is a bad bet and that the coins are gradually becoming worth less vs USD, a cash grab situation is likely to arise in which people will become aware coins are actually only backed by buy orders amounting to about 0.01% of the arbitrary market capitalization. This situation could be immensely profitable for those buying into the next round of folly.

All those who have become rich from Bitcoin have simply done so at the expense of later market participants, many of whom are likely to realize large losses on the flip side at some point. Hence why it's reasonably comparable to a giant ponzi scheme.


I have been trying for a while to wrap my mind around the price of bitcoin, and as such, it is necessary to understand the price formation of monetary assets in general.  von Mises and Rothbard are a good starting point to that.

With bitcoin, we are witnessing - maybe - for the first time since a very very long time - the emergence of another market-determined monetary asset which has not been issued by a state and as such, imposing the quasi monopoly.  The last time must have been when silver or gold became "money".

When an asset becomes a monetary asset, by definition, its market price will be way above its "usage price".  For gold there remains still a jewelry usage price (which is way way below the market price of gold) ; for fiat and bitcoin, the usage price is essentially zero, so the ONLY price they have is their "monetary contribution".

In a steady-state system, the price of a monetary asset is given by the "quantity theory of money", which states that:

P x Q = M x V, where P is the price of the goods - so the price of the monetary asset is its inverse: B = 1 / P

B = 1/P = Q / (M x V)

Q is the amount of goods bought by the monetary asset, M is the amount of monetary asset in circulation, and V is the average velocity (the number of times per year that a given bitcoin is used to buy something).

V is the inverse of T, the (harmonic) average holding time of a bitcoin: the number of years a bitcoin is held as store of value.

So the "end value" in steady state of a bitcoin will ultimately depend on two things:
how much stuff is bought using bitcoin, and how long one holds one's bitcoins.

The rise in value from 0 to the steady state value B represents a lot of value of course, which "came out of nothing".  

There is indeed an initial "free" transfer of value from the whole economy using bitcoin in the end steady state towards two classes of people:

- those who give out the first time a bitcoin (the miners).  This is called seigniorage.  It is what central banks are good at: printing new money and cashing in on first distribution of it.

- the "early adopters" who stored value in bitcoin before its market value reached B.  This last thing is something that has probably not been witnessed since gold became money in the early days of history.

So yes, there is a steady flux of value from the recent adopters to the early adopters and the miners.  That is part of the build-up of the market cap of the monetary asset.  

Of course, the market price doesn't need to follow the quantity theory of money price: it can *anticipate* it.  If everybody would be strongly convinced that a bitcoin were worth $ 10 000 in 5 years from now, most people wouldn't sell them below, say, $ 4000. People would be willing to buy them for $ 4000. It is because one doesn't really know that the price is lower, or higher, than the steady state monetary value once bitcoin is regularly used as means of payment.  

In the end, however, the bitcoin price will be determined by two factors:
the total quantity of goods that is bought with it, and the average holding time of a bitcoin (as store of value).

This will determine the final market cap of the monetary asset "bitcoin".  It can by potentially much higher than today, or it can be lower.  It could potentially drop to zero if it fails to become a monetary asset after all.

What I'm not clear about, is whether bitcoin could become a sole store of value, without being able to buy goods with it.  

So I have no idea what is the end market cap of bitcoin.  I guess nobody has.  There's a potential for a very high market cap if bitcoin is used a lot as means of payment, and if people hold it for a while.  


Dump the velocity. and you are good to go. It has to be liquid, the owner needs to know that he can easily get rid of the bitcoins, actual trades are not needed.
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November 15, 2014, 02:43:02 PM

LOL, this is hopping back to $385/$390 so quick.. way oversold.  

Not oversold. Just the usual group of idiot monkeys who keep dumping till noone dares to buy anymore.
They will do everything in their power to make sure the price stays down.

Anyway, back to 320-350 for another 2 months.
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