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Question: What happens first:
New ATH - 43 (69.4%)
<$60,000 - 19 (30.6%)
Total Voters: 62

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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26403063 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 3 users with 9 merit deleted.)
NotLambchop
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November 15, 2014, 03:07:11 PM


Welcome to Never Never Land, ChartBuddy!
NotLambchop
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November 15, 2014, 03:10:54 PM

...
of course until something better arrives; oh wait - bitcoin  Kiss

Lol, Bitcoin is the slide ruler in the age of smartphones--a clumsy dinosaur.
criptix
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November 15, 2014, 03:15:12 PM

...
of course until something better arrives; oh wait - bitcoin  Kiss

Lol, Bitcoin is the slide ruler in the age of smartphones--a clumsy dinosaur.

nfc is the safest technology out there Roll Eyes
ssmc2
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November 15, 2014, 03:15:39 PM

https://twitter.com/EdmundCMoy/status/533490091965300736
JorgeStolfi
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November 15, 2014, 03:15:59 PM

In a steady-state system, the price of a monetary asset is given by the "quantity theory of money", which states that:

P x Q = M x V, where

P is the price of the goods, Q is the amount of goods bought by the monetary asset, M is the amount of monetary asset in circulation, and V is the average velocity (the number of times per year that a given bitcoin is used to buy something).
Dump the velocity. and you are good to go. It has to be liquid, the owner needs to know that he can easily get rid of the bitcoins, actual trades are not needed.

You cannot ignore the velocity.  If everybody would pay their bills the same day they get the money, instead of waiting to the end of the month, the same amount of trading would require 1/30 as much currency in circulation.  If the currency it bitcoin, the smaller demand would imply a lower value per BTC.

Moreover, the creation of virtual forms of the currency is inevitable.  I could pay a merchant with a signed paper "I owe you 10 bitcoins, payable in 10 days", and the merchant can pay his supplier with that paper, if they trust me.  We could deposit all our bitcoins in a "bitcoin bank", and pay each other with checks from those accounts.  Such virtual bitcoins would reduce the demand for actual bitcoins.

There is indeed an initial "free" transfer of value from the whole economy using bitcoin in the end steady state towards two classes of people:

- those who give out the first time a bitcoin (the miners).  This is called seigniorage.  It is what central banks are good at: printing new money and cashing in on first distribution of it.

- the "early adopters" who stored value in bitcoin before its market value reached B.  This last thing is something that has probably not been witnessed since gold became money in the early days of history.

The second case has happened with many private currencies in the past, such as Platinum Pieces of the World of Warcraft game (is that right?), Second Life's Linden Dollars, and, presumably, the Liberty Dollar.

In the first case, the central banks are supposed to use the wealth that they take from the people through seignorage for the benefit of the people.  That makes the practice acceptable to the majority of the population. (Whether the governments actually use that wealth for the people's benefit is a separate issue.) With private money like bitcoin, seignorage transfers wealth from the general population to the private individuals who created the currency.  In the case of bitcoin, some seigneurs expected to suck in trillions of dollars that way. 
nanobrain
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November 15, 2014, 03:19:40 PM

...snip...

Blitz, you realise the Shroomskit account is used by (and this is an IIRC from a Shroomskit post months back) four different people (shared house? company) -- which explains the lack of consistency and distinct personality changes in posts every few days/hours.  And none of them give a fuck about what the others post.

So, keep posting this is a bit like posting Parashat ha-Shavua to prove the Pope is Catholic. Save your time/bandwidth.
NotLambchop
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November 15, 2014, 03:21:33 PM

...
of course until something better arrives; oh wait - bitcoin  Kiss

Lol, Bitcoin is the slide ruler in the age of smartphones--a clumsy dinosaur.

nfc is the safest technology out there Roll Eyes

NFC is secure enough for what it's being used for.  Similar to CC transactions, the risks are assumed by the provider, not the end user.
Of course, you're [unsurprisingly] missing the point.
ssmc2
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November 15, 2014, 03:22:17 PM

How many different people use your account lambie?  Cheesy
NotLambchop
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November 15, 2014, 03:24:25 PM

How many different people use your account lambie?  Cheesy

Plurality is an illusion, earthling.



  ~Your Beneficent Reptilian Overlords.
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November 15, 2014, 03:40:40 PM

Lemme help some of you new guys out.  Whenever you see things like market price setting at a fake number like $399.99, and it sits there for more than 12-24 hours without going up, you can bet that a dump is incoming.

You're welcome.

(I hate this stupid market, but still hodl for life)

Ahem.

Right again.  This supposedly unpredictable market has become so predictable.
fichtn12345
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November 15, 2014, 03:44:36 PM

Lemme help some of you new guys out.  Whenever you see things like market price setting at a fake number like $399.99, and it sits there for more than 12-24 hours without going up, you can bet that a dump is incoming.

You're welcome.

(I hate this stupid market, but still hodl for life)

Ahem.

Right again.  This supposedly unpredictable market has become so predictable.

LoL, yea right. If it is so  predictable, please enlighten me and tell me what will happen next...
Torque
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November 15, 2014, 03:46:02 PM

Lemme help some of you new guys out.  Whenever you see things like market price setting at a fake number like $399.99, and it sits there for more than 12-24 hours without going up, you can bet that a dump is incoming.

You're welcome.

(I hate this stupid market, but still hodl for life)

Ahem.

Right again.  This supposedly unpredictable market has become so predictable.

LoL, yea right. If it is so  predictable, please enlighten me and tell me what will happen next...

Sure.  More dumping incoming.

You're welcome.
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November 15, 2014, 03:48:13 PM

Weekend dumps down to 34x followed by Mon/Tues pump to 500  Grin
NotLambchop
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November 15, 2014, 03:50:31 PM

The jig is up, Bitcoiners!  YOU CAN NOT HIDE!
dnaleor
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November 15, 2014, 03:55:12 PM

we are at CRUCIALTM levels that could make or break the trend reversal:

3d chart


1d chart


4h chart


15m chart


ShroomsKit
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November 15, 2014, 03:59:41 PM

Lemme help some of you new guys out.  Whenever you see things like market price setting at a fake number like $399.99, and it sits there for more than 12-24 hours without going up, you can bet that a dump is incoming.

You're welcome.

(I hate this stupid market, but still hodl for life)

Ahem.

Right again.  This supposedly unpredictable market has become so predictable.

LoL, yea right. If it is so  predictable, please enlighten me and tell me what will happen next...

We go down? Just like we did pretty much the whole year.
ChartBuddy
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November 15, 2014, 04:01:19 PM


Explanation
dinofelis
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November 15, 2014, 04:06:43 PM

In a steady-state system, the price of a monetary asset is given by the "quantity theory of money", which states that:

P x Q = M x V, where

P is the price of the goods, Q is the amount of goods bought by the monetary asset, M is the amount of monetary asset in circulation, and V is the average velocity (the number of times per year that a given bitcoin is used to buy something).
Dump the velocity. and you are good to go. It has to be liquid, the owner needs to know that he can easily get rid of the bitcoins, actual trades are not needed.
You cannot ignore the velocity.  If everybody would pay their bills the same day they get the money, instead of waiting to the end of the month, the same amount of trading would require 1/30 as much currency in circulation.  If the currency it bitcoin, the smaller demand would imply a lower value per BTC.

I absolutely agree with that, and it is my personal main worry for "to the moon".  If bitcoin is just used as an intermediate asset to buy something overseas, and a typical "bitcoin" buy would be fiat -> bitcoin on one or other exchange -> buying, and the seller receives bitcoin and trades them immediately for fiat (eventually another fiat), then the "holding time" of bitcoins would be very very short.  The velocity would be very very high.  And only a small market cap would be sufficient to do all the buying in the world.  Bitcoin would then just be a sort of international transmission means of value. 

It is only when people keep coins for storage of value, for a week, a month or longer (like most of us keep a monthly salary for on average half a month when spending it), that the bitcoin velocity would be grossly comparable to fiat velocity.  It could also be much lower, if people start having faith in the long term value store of bitcoin (against fiat motions).  However, with current volatility I don't think anyone in his right mind would put all of his savings for the long term in bitcoin.

This is right now compensated by people who are betting on "to the moon" - me too, btw.  The holding times for bitcoins are very very long right now I would think.  In fact, they have to, given the price and the still small amount of goods that is actually bought with it (essentially on black markets I suppose).  It is a reasonable bet to gamble a few coins with a huge potential benefit.  But not a life saving.  That would be madness.

The gamble is now (or was in the past).  It is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

Quote
Moreover, the creation of virtual forms of the currency is inevitable.  I could pay a merchant with a signed paper "I owe you 10 bitcoins, payable in 10 days", and the merchant can pay his supplier with that paper, if they trust me.  We could deposit all our bitcoins in a "bitcoin bank", and pay each other with checks from those accounts.  Such virtual bitcoins would reduce the demand for actual bitcoins.

The point with M2 money is that M2 money is indistinguishable from M0 money in fiat.  You don't know if the 200 dollars you spend from a bank account are "the original" ones, or are "on credit" (in the fractional reserve system).  They all look the same.

However, I wouldn't value a piece of paper "I owe you 10 bitcoin" as much, as 10 real bitcoins in my wallet !
It is like paper gold and physical gold, except for the problems of actual physical gold (securing it and so on).

I would rather think that bitcoin is especially suited NOT to do fractional banking with.  There's no difference between a bank account and a bitcoin address.  So nobody can mess with your coins and lend them out multiple times.

Quote
There is indeed an initial "free" transfer of value from the whole economy using bitcoin in the end steady state towards two classes of people:

- those who give out the first time a bitcoin (the miners).  This is called seigniorage.  It is what central banks are good at: printing new money and cashing in on first distribution of it.

- the "early adopters" who stored value in bitcoin before its market value reached B.  This last thing is something that has probably not been witnessed since gold became money in the early days of history.

The second case has happened with many private currencies in the past, such as Platinum Pieces of the World of Warcraft game (is that right?), Second Life's Linden Dollars, and, presumably, the Liberty Dollar.

That didn't turn out to be a monetary asset, right ?  It was at most a valued collectable.  I have no knowledge of people paying their grocery shoppings with Second Life Dollars.  And as long as we can't with bitcoin, it will not be money either.  But the idea is that one day, we will.  If not, then bitcoin Q will be very low.

Quote
In the first case, the central banks are supposed to use the wealth that they take from the people through seignorage for the benefit of the people.  That makes the practice acceptable to the majority of the population. (Whether the governments actually use that wealth for the people's benefit is a separate issue.) With private money like bitcoin, seignorage transfers wealth from the general population to the private individuals who created the currency.  In the case of bitcoin, some seigneurs expected to suck in trillions of dollars that way. 

I don't believe that it is "for the common good" but rather to pump a lot of production in the hands of a few that central banks print money.  But as you say, that's another discussion.  Although not entirely.  Because in order to try to escape inflating fiat money, things like gold and bitcoin could be a potential long-time store of value.   Because they are collectables.

We are those potential seigneurs.  There's nothing wrong with that, I' d think.
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November 15, 2014, 04:08:15 PM

I do agree there are a lot of stocks that rely on the greater fool and investing in them often times ends badly, but I think that's a bit of a simplistic view. Although it can be nice as a shareholder to get paid a dividend (there can also be tax drawbacks), a company should really only use it's profits to pay one as a last resort after considering whether the money could be more wisely spent re-investing back into the business, making acquisitions or buying back their own stock if they consider it undervalued. The growing tangible value of a company is just as relevant to a stocks price as whether or not a dividend is paid as are a company earnings.

True enough that a company should make careful consideration of what to do with its profits and direct them most appropriately for the situation. However, government taxes and regulations mean that for most, this means reinvestment instead of dividends even when dividends would be a better option. This suits the government, of course, as its currently printing huge amounts of money and needs somewhere for it to go. Investments which don't have to prove their worth are ideal for that.

The issue with lack of dividends is that they are an extremely important market signal. The problem where dividends are not paid is that you have a kind-of singularity, a box where you can look in and see (some of) what's going inside but nothing goes in and nothing comes out. All companies will have a lifetime (granted for some, it will be extremely long), creation, existence and termination. If no dividends are ever paid, what value is provided to the investor over that time? Also, if dividends are not paid, it is possible to pay financial games and mislead investors over the value of the company (think Enron or Worldcom). In any case, who is to say that the companies are making smart use of their reinvestments? Maybe they will choose the wrong fields to enter, maybe they are a company that has a limited lifespan due to changing conditions (AOL anyone?). Reinvestment often means a company will grow and bubble beyond the size it should actually be and is partly responsible for some of the huge out-of-control corporations we have at the moment. Dividends allows an investor to use his own wisdom to determine where to place the profits from his investments.

Again, dividends are not the be-all and end-all of investment but I do feel that we have moved too far from them at the moment and a return to a sane market will see an increase in the number of companies paying decent dividends.
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November 15, 2014, 04:09:22 PM


I think you should lie down buddy. You are clerly stressed out.
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