Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[JorgeStolfi]

It is not, it is accepting dollars through Bitpay (not Coinbase as I said, sorry). 
http://www.coindesk.com/microsoft-adds-bitcoin-payments-xbox-games-mobile-content/
Bitpay's name is shown in small letters on the payment page, but it is there --
converting the bitcoins to dollars, which is what Microsoft gets.

Knowing this would take inside knowledge of Microsoft's accounting (which from the source you site here I'd guess you don't have).  Microsoft may receive Bitcoin and Dollars, only Bitcoin, or only dollars from BitPay.  Their system allows for all of these payment mechanisms.  

If they were willing to accept bitcoins, why would they need Bitpay's help?

Accepting payment in bitcoins makes bookkeeping much more complicated.  BTC is not legal tender, not even a foreign currency; so bitcoin payments would have to be considered barter, and bitcoin holdings would have to recorded as investment, not cash, for auditing purposes.  For tax reporting, they would have to list each separate payment with the BTC price at the time of payment, as well as any conversion to USD.

That's too much trouble for the expected amount of purchases that they expect to get that way.  That is one reason why established companies that "accept bitcoin" do so only through bitcoin payment processors.

For what its worth, Bitpay's systems will also allow Microsoft to open the option to pay their payroll with bitcoin in the percentage that an employee chooses.

Riiight... and soon Bill Gates will convert his fortune to bitcoin too...

[conspirosphere.tk]

Wait, "existential stability" of Bitcoin, the most unstable thing calling itself a "currency" in the history of the world?!

yeah, let's have a stable scamcoin currency!

[FatherBob]

...
if you think about it, "we" actually doesnt exist in reality. it is a construct.

...

Reality itself is but an illusion--ripples of consciousness in the wake of the divine dance of Shiva.

Coo coo ca choo,

  ~Rev. FatherBob.

[NotLambchop]

Wait, "existential stability" of Bitcoin, the most unstable thing calling itself a "currency" in the history of the world?!

yeah, let's get a stable currency!

Brah, there are shit fiat currencies, fact.  Should compare the dollar to some shit crypto?
How many fiat currencies have died in the history of money?
Now how many crypto coins have died over the past year?

[inca]

Why do you have a trust rating of -4 NotLambChop? And why are you posting with two accounts on the same thread at the same time? (FatherBob).

 

[conspirosphere.tk]

Brah, there are shit fiat currencies, fact.  Should compare the dollar to some shit crypto?
How many fiat currencies have died in the history of money?
Now how many crypto coins have died over the past year?

If anyone started extorting taxes in any shitcoin they would be quite equally 'stable'. -Hey, sounds like an idea!
But any kind of fiat or debt-'coin' have a limited lifespan.
How many fiat have died? Thousands I guess.

[edit]
The Average Life Expectancy For A Fiat Currency Is 27 Years ... Every 30 To 40 Years The Reigning Monetary System Fails And Has To Be Retooled http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com.tr/2011/08/average-life-expectancy-for-fiat.html

According to an interesting study of the 775 fiat currencies that have existed 599 are no longer in circulation. The median life expectancy for the defunct currencies? Fifteen years. http://dollardaze.org/blog/?post_id=00405

[NotLambchop]

Why do you have a trust rating of -4 NotLambChop? And why are you posting with two accounts on the same thread at the same time? (FatherBob).

 

Good question.
Some people got upset when I suggested that a certain pillar of the community, Kenneth Slaughter of Active Mining, may not be entirely what he appears to be.  A few more people got upset when I've similarly opined re. Danny Brewster of NeoBee, Ukyo of WeEx, Benny and Branny of HASH and RENT, respectively, ABitInterested of the secret pr0nz site & Legitimate offline business fame, etc., etc., etc.

When all my suggestions proved to be 100% correct, and the people who raged against me were [predictably] impoverished, some of them got upset

I hope this helps

If you would like me to leave you an equally justified trust rating, I'd gladly oblige

[NotLambchop]

...
How many fiat have died? Thousands I guess.

You would, though you'd be wrong
The rest of your rant has nothing to do with stability, the topic being discussed.  If you would like to pretend this is /pol/ and post some tired "teh gubermint iz extorting taxes and they took our jerbs," go ahead.

[jonoiv]

Brah, there are shit fiat currencies, fact.  Should compare the dollar to some shit crypto?
How many fiat currencies have died in the history of money?
Now how many crypto coins have died over the past year?

If anyone started extorting taxes in any shitcoin they would be quite equally 'stable'. -Hey, sounds like an idea!
But any kind of fiat or debt-'coin' have a limited lifespan.
How many fiat have died? Thousands I guess.

I was about to say the same.

Lots of countries get a new currency, or rehash an old one.  Most of Europe ditched their old ones for the Euro.  UK had decimalization in the 1970's where 240 pence changed to 100 pence in the pound.  People were told prices will adjust, but in reality it was a massive devaluation.  The pound version 2.  

Look at Germany in the last 150 years  Goldmark > Papiermark > Rentenmark >  Reichsmark  > Deutsche Mark > Euro

Crypto is Darwinistic and the strongest will survive,  fiat is imposed and has no competition.

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[JorgeStolfi]

Inflation is just a kind of tax that governments may use to pay for whatever they do.  It is paid diffusely by everyone who holds money (or unadjusted bank accounts and contracts) for any length of time.

Like any other tax, it may support good things, or be wasted, or be used for very nasty things. It may be a rather stupid tax, maybe less fair than other kinds of tax.  But it is not radically more evil than any other tax.  Even Satoshi decided to use inflation tax to support the miners, until usage grows enough for tx fees to take over. 

Some countries, at some times, choose to abuse inflation tax.  However, looking at historic inflation of a currency is as pointless as looking at historical prices of bitcoin.  So what, if the dollar lost 95% of its purchasing value since 1920?  Unless you grand-grandpa robbed a bank and buried the banknotes in his ranch, you will not be affected by that number.  What matters to you is the inflation between the time you get your paycheck and the time you spend it, or invest it in an inflation-resistant asset like real estate or stocks.

I have lived most of my life in a country with excessive inflation.  I lost count of how many times they had to strike 3 zeros from the currency to keep the numbers manageable.  It was bad, and no one wants that to happen again; but people adapted, and survived, and even prospered in spite of that. 

The goal should not be to get rid of inflation, but (like for any other tax) to keep it as low as possible, and make sure that its revenue is well spent, for the benefit of the people who paid it, directly or indirectly.

[NotLambchop]

...
Crypto is Darwinistic and the strongest will survive,  fiat is imposed and has no competition.

To go along with your social Darwinism silliness for a bit:

Survival of the fittest doesn't imply "survival of the fittest that play fair/by the rules that I like."
It's survival by any means, even if those means are evol gubermint jackbooted thugs stomping on the faces of christlike Bitcoiners.
So yeah...  Fiat's king.

[bad trader]

Also, the short-term uptrend and the medium-term downtrend lines are just about to cross...

What matters is the orange line of doom at OKCoin.



edit: ...which seems to be the line you were talking about.

[NewLiberty]

It is not, it is accepting dollars through Bitpay (not Coinbase as I said, sorry).  
http://www.coindesk.com/microsoft-adds-bitcoin-payments-xbox-games-mobile-content/
Bitpay's name is shown in small letters on the payment page, but it is there --
converting the bitcoins to dollars, which is what Microsoft gets.

Knowing this would take inside knowledge of Microsoft's accounting (which from the source you site here I'd guess you don't have).  Microsoft may receive Bitcoin and Dollars, only Bitcoin, or only dollars from BitPay.  Their system allows for all of these payment mechanisms.  

If they were willing to accept bitcoins, why would they need Bitpay's help?

Accepting payment in bitcoins makes bookkeeping much more complicated.  BTC is not legal tender, not even a foreign currency; so bitcoin payments would have to be considered barter, and bitcoin holdings would have to recorded as investment, not cash, for auditing purposes.  For tax reporting, they would have to list each separate payment with the BTC price at the time of payment, as well as any conversion to USD.

That's too much trouble for the expected amount of purchases that they expect to get that way.  That is one reason why established companies that "accept bitcoin" do so only through bitcoin payment processors.

For what its worth, Bitpay's systems will also allow Microsoft to open the option to pay their payroll with bitcoin in the percentage that an employee chooses.

Riiight... and soon Bill Gates will convert his fortune to bitcoin too...

Bitpay has a nifty API.  Microsoft decided to support it rather than compete with it.  Do you think they didn't have a choice about that?

You also have a lot of "would have to"s in your mind.  Do you know whether these also exist in the world outside your mind?

Consider that Microsoft exists in many jurisdictions, and also that Microsoft does have a few lawyers and accountants scattered around the planet, many of whom are quite clever.  I'd imagine they can probably handle these little details pretty easily.  And the company also is rumored to write some software, so maybe it isn't too hard for them.

If you were to hazard a guess about how many of Microsoft's 128,000 employees might know something about Bitcoin and might not mind being paid with it, what Might that guess be?  

As to "not being Legal Tender or even a foreign currency", those are part of what makes it better, not worse.  Being attached to a regional political authority is not always so great.  Software is the same way, it doesn't care so much about political parties and regional borders.  The only surprise is why Microsoft waited so long.  I'd guess that this was more a bottom up initiative than top down, so my hats off to the engineers and others in the company that pushed for it.

Did you catch this one a few years back?
http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/156072/bitcoin.pdf
This isn't a new effort.

[conspirosphere.tk]

we're scraping the long-term trend bottom. If it comes off all the bets are off.



https://www.tradingview.com/v/JgMRPjjp/

[pjviitas]

...
Crypto is Darwinistic and the strongest will survive,  fiat is imposed and has no competition.

To go along with your social Darwinism silliness for a bit:

Survival of the fittest doesn't imply "survival of the fittest that play fair/by the rules that I like."
It's survival by any means, even if those means are evol gubermint jackbooted thugs stomping on the faces of christlike Bitcoiners.
So yeah...  Fiat's king.

There is only one way to wrestle control of money out of the governments hands and that will be all out war in which case the most valuable thing will be bullets.

Be careful of what you wish for because if it happens it won't be pretty.

You can pretty much say bye bye to your suberbs, shopping malls and suvs.

[bad trader]

we're scraping the long-term trend bottom. If it comes off all the bets are off.

This one?

sorry if already answered, but do you care to share why you think @220 will be the "real" bottom? (serious question)

It's because the triangle cult has blind faith in their trendlines. Of course if the lines fail, they will have a crisis of faith, which leads to dumping.



It's how markets work.

(Just to be clear, I wasn't the one saying we will hit $220.)

[NotLambchop]

...
Crypto is Darwinistic and the strongest will survive,  fiat is imposed and has no competition.

To go along with your social Darwinism silliness for a bit:

Survival of the fittest doesn't imply "survival of the fittest that play fair/by the rules that I like."
It's survival by any means, even if those means are evol gubermint jackbooted thugs stomping on the faces of christlike Bitcoiners.
So yeah...  Fiat's king.

There is only one way to wrestle control of money out of the governments hands and that will be all out war in which case the most valuable thing will be bullets.

Be careful of what you wish for because if it happens it won't be pretty.

You can pretty much say bye bye to your suberbs, shopping malls and suvs.

Wait, wat?  You're not suggesting the local liber contingent is going to take up arms against their government?
The same kooks who "invested" their money in BTCeanie BTCabies Bitcoin and won't sell until it's $10K/coin?

I'll hold off on stocking up potable water, beans & ammo for now, but thanks for the heads-up.

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[JorgeStolfi]

You also have a lot of "would have to"s in your mind.  Do you know whether these also exist in the world outside your mind?

Yes. I did not invent them, I read them somewhere.  The complications of tax reporting, for example, have been widely discussed in this forum.

If you were to hazard a guess about how many of Microsoft's 128,000 employees might know something about Bitcoin and might not mind being paid with it, what Might that guess be?  

No idea. Assuming the ratio of 1 bitcoiner for every 10'000 humans in the world, perhaps 13?  But MS employees probably can read price charts, so I would not bet on that.

Did you catch this one a few years back?
http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/156072/bitcoin.pdf
This isn't a new effort.

In that academic (ahem) paper, the authors point out an alleged flaw of the protocol, and propose a solution for it.  Which has not been adopted by the bitcoin developers, AFAIK.  (I don't have an opinion on whether the flaw is real or the solution would work.)