MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]

[rix5]

*hm*
i don't want to interrupt, but all the btc stuck at gox for indefinate time ... does that not mean btc just became a lot more scarce right now?
I think price should go up because people need to buy coins now elsewhere. And 'elsewhere' is not that much left since everybody parked indefinately and very secure on gox. Right?

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[cryptog1]

now it is time to buy litecoin !
 

If the BTC foundation is not able to fix the maleability issue found by MtGox today within 1y, well it is a big opportunity for the LTC as it appears that the LTC dev team fixed plenty of bugs for bitcoin last year.

How about you name a few?

I was a bit too fast. It appears that the litecoin team contributed to some testing, bug patches (probably minor) and bitcoin omg wallet but I agree no major bug has been fixed by them so far, it seems.

[kano]

now it is time to buy litecoin !
 

If the BTC foundation is not able to fix the maleability issue found by MtGox today within 1y, well it is a big opportunity for the LTC as it appears that the LTC dev team fixed plenty of bugs for bitcoin last year.

How about you name a few?

I was a bit too fast. It appears that the litecoin team contributed to some testing, bug patches (probably minor) and bitcoin omg wallet but I agree no major bug has been fixed by them so far, it seems.

It was more like: 9 months of nothing from them until they copied the bitcoin code again and updated everything.

[gizmoh]

*hm*
i don't want to interrupt, but all the btc stuck at gox for indefinate time ... does that not mean btc just became a lot more scarce right now?
I think price should go up because people need to buy coins now elsewhere. And 'elsewhere' is not that much left since everybody parked indefinately and very secure on gox. Right?

You forgot that there is at the least, $50 millions in cash stuck to buy the coins elsewhere. Like it or not, btc economy has much funds stuck with Gox,last month there was like $40 million in open bids compared to roughly $20 million bids total on bitstamp and btc-e.

[Newar]

So, what's the scenario now? Mtgox will have bitcoin priced at $1 as everyone is trying to sell their btc there and get the cash out somehow?
So we will have btc priced at $100 on Gox or something and $800 on bit stamp or more.
What are the rules they need to follow when it comes to holding funds from investors?

Rules? ahem...

We have that scenario already:

from bitcoinaverage.com :

Code:

Data for USD weighted average				
exchange	volume %	volume ฿	last price	
bitstamp	42.57%	74386.19	705.0 USD	
btce		30.33%	53011.59	694.9 USD
bitfinex	26.46%	46247.24	705.0 USD	
localbitcoins	00.24%	416.89	894.5 USD	
campbx*		00.22%	381.97	717.0 USD
itbit		00.07%	130.91	820.0 USD
vaultofsatoshi	00.05%	82.07	720.0 USD	
kraken		00.02%	34.5	716.9 USD
cryptotrade	00.02%	42.63	689.3 USD	
justcoin	00.00%	6.23	714.8 USD	
bitkonan	00.00%	3.81	710.0 USD	
rocktrading	00.00%	5.16	705.0 USD	
anx_hk*		00.00%	4.76	708.0 USD

The CNY and EUR markets agree with the above.


MtGox however:

Last:$557.00000

Edit: Here's a pretty picture: http://www.coinometrics.com/bitcoin/dispersion

[Zarathustra]

Sturle: I wonder if you are paid to take Gox's side on EVERYTHING or if your shilling is just a twisted way to protect your business which I assume relies on Gox.

But the more I think about it the more the latter doesn't make any sense, as its pretty obvious that the only way to protect your business was to move out from Gox months ago.

Goxed and sturled. You can congratulate everyone who listened to the advice of this company of clowns and their useful idiots. (expressed in sturles words and lyrics)

[joshbb]

Hey guys!

I know people are pretty sick of the Mt. Gox BTC withdrawal freeze, and are starting to take matters into their own hands...

I saw https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=455243 and got to thinking.. what if somebody just made an actual BTC exchange between "Real" BTC and "Gox" BTC!

So I did!

Since my https://www.bitcoinbuilder.com/ site had fallen into a little bit of disuse (I made it two years ago... back then it was for using dwolla to automatically buy bitcoins on mtgox!), over the last two days I've re-purposed it to exactly this purpose. And now it's ready to launch!

Advantages of this:

1. People who want to sell gox btc, you know any offers in the order book are legit and will execute immediately. No need for constant PMing and hoping the person willing to buy your gox btc is online right now and still willing to honor their post!
2. People who want to buy gox btc, you can now accept any size order without it being extra work for you. Just place your limit order and forget about it.
3. As the exchange, I am a trusted "escrow" service all in one.. no more sending small amounts piece-by-piece/skyping/etc. (I can be considered "trusted" as a long time member of bitcoin talk.. I'm Josh Jones, founder of DreamHost, the Los Angeles Bitcoin Meetup, ChunkHost.com, BitMadness.com, 310-570-COIN, and so on!)

Note: there's a 2% transaction fee for all trades on bitcoinbuilder, and to be safe your withdrawal BTC addresses (one for "Real" BTC and one for your "Gox" BTC... must be a mtgox deposit address!) are permanently set and locked once you put them in. Also, all withdrawals are processed manually by me, once daily at (around) 11pm PST. That's because no coins are kept on the server at all, you know, just to be super safe!

So, go check it out! I hope it makes sense and you find it useful!

Thanks,
josh!

[rpietila]

Todays gold at #mtgox - remember to pop popcorn before entering..

On "manual" withdraws and the 5% manual withdraw  (normal) fee:

<@SarahCoinBit> zewelor It's complicated as to who can use it and who can not so we deal  with people individually on it instead

On the need for making public announcements on their website and not just on IRC:

09:49 <@SarahCoinBit> zewelor IRC gets copied and pasted all over the internet. It is not a  secret because it is only on IRC and not the website

On the current SEPA queue:

09:53 <@SarahCoinBit> Saykor SEPA are still being processed.  I think the queue is 5 to 6 weeks,  maybe less for smaller ones

Yes, SarahCoinBit actually works for MtGox. From the UK, of course.

Yes, giving some people the access of their money, and other people no access, IS A CRIME.

Yes, giving different information to different customers, so that some of them can profit financially on the expense of others, IS A CRIME.

Yes, lying in the age of open Internet is fucking distasteful. What are you waiting for? No matter how much time passes and how much money you can suck from your victims, you are still a bunch of lying bastards AND CRIMINALS. (That is, unless "justice" system is meanwhile completely overhauled to prosecute only victimless "crimes" instead of the real ones where the criminal does harm others.. )


Ah you (sturle) were so smart as to have prioritized address to the trading system so that you can pull your orders in the middle of my market buy execution? How smart you are, congratulations. Listen now, asshole: I also operate a silverbank, and know what is an honest way to design such systems, and not by a frigging long-shot would there be such an exploit that you mentioned!!! You are so deep in your crime that you deny even realizing it, making you such a sad clown in everyone's eyes who have a shred of sense of justice left.

I got your name and address, but this part of the message is still not discussed through. I am calling Mt.Gox and you CRIMINALS, which means that you are BREAKING EXISTING LAWS with your procedures regarding ability to get value out of Mt.Gox, in that they are designed, informed and applied discriminator(il)y between customers. Also the trading software allows for blatant manipulation of the trading, making it unpredictable for a customer even to know the outcome of a market order in advance! (I am in no way claiming that this was the most incredulous purposeful misexecution in your history, but this was the very trigger that caused the buy panic in Jan 26, which caused the withdrawal panic, which caused the lockdown.)

That is the thing that worries me the most: (Moral considerations aside), I would not dare to steal money from such many such important people as you are continuously stealing from with your machinations. This makes me believe that you are for all practical purposes under the same control as the (central) banks, known to ream people's ass with the expansion and contraction of credit ever since 1800s and before. Your workings resemble the workings of the installed puppets that claim to be our elected representatives. Sturle speaks like a fucking banker.

I am actually waiting for an answer. The time of silently stealing from widows, orphans and the working class is soon coming to an end.



ADD: To show how you should deal with a situation when it is not clear (due to fire, flood, theft, hack, seizure, external pressure, technical or organizational problem) that you can immediately pay all customers what you have promised or lead them expect that will be paid, thus causing discrimination between clients:

III.2 Special situations

Force Majeure is a negative condition outside of the influence of the Merchant. Such includes, but is not limited to: war or riot, act of God, interruption of public transport, public communications or electricity supply, crime or attempted crime, act or order by authority, strike, lockout, boycott or other such activity, or a force majeure condition affecting a subcontractor. Suppliers of silver, however, are excluded from "subcontractors", and difficulties of the suppliers of silver will not have any impact on Merchant, Vault or Customers.

Merchant must immediately inform, by email, the Customers, if force majeure applies or ceases to apply.

As a result of force majeure, all or part of the Vault may not be in 100% control of the Merchant and thus not deliverable. To avoid any discrimination between the Customers, the following will happen:

Merchant immediately determines the amount of Coins still in Vault and in Merchant's control. This is prorated to Customers in their current accounts. The difference between previous and new balance will be credited to a new, "frozen" account. When the control to the Coins is re-established, the frozen account balance will be merged to the current account. This procedure ensures that Purchase, Withdrawal, Instant Withdrawal, Transfer and Pick-up activities can be continued in current accounts with no risk of actual or anticipated Coins deficit in the Vault. In other words, the Coins representing the balances of Accounts that the Customer can operate, are 100% controlled by the Merchant and usable by the Customers, even during force majeure.

[PirateHatForTea]

Josh, This is a great idea but I'm not sure you're trustworthy enough as a counterparty. This is kinda a tricky problem to solve with current tech.

[Smoked]

Yakuza?

[smoothie]

Sturle: I wonder if you are paid to take Gox's side on EVERYTHING or if your shilling is just a twisted way to protect your business which I assume relies on Gox.

But the more I think about it the more the latter doesn't make any sense, as its pretty obvious that the only way to protect your business was to move out from Gox months ago.

Goxed and sturled. You can congratulate everyone who listened to the advice of this company of clowns and their useful idiots. (expressed in sturles words and lyrics)

Remember now to them we are the "manipulators" as well as useful idiots. 

[joshbb]

Josh, This is a great idea but I'm not sure you're trustworthy enough as a counterparty. This is kinda a tricky problem to solve with current tech.

Yeah, that is the big question of course.. I'd figure maybe my reputation would be enough for some people but probably not for everybody!

[Zarathustra]

Sturle: I wonder if you are paid to take Gox's side on EVERYTHING or if your shilling is just a twisted way to protect your business which I assume relies on Gox.

But the more I think about it the more the latter doesn't make any sense, as its pretty obvious that the only way to protect your business was to move out from Gox months ago.

Goxed and sturled. You can congratulate everyone who listened to the advice of this company of clowns and their useful idiots. (expressed in sturles words and lyrics)

Remember now to them we are the "manipulators" as well as useful idiots.  

Yes, it's called the transvaluation of all values. (German: Umwertung aller Werte):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transvaluation_of_values

[Bitsinmyhead]

@rpietila
You really need to take a few deep breaths.

I totally agree with you that Mt. Gox is a bunch of liars and running their exchange in an immoral way. However, sturle has been 100% up front with everything. He has pretty much been telling everyone here exactly what he is doing and still managed to own a lot of people pretty hard. Most in his position would try to spread even more fear and try to move the price in a way that would make them the most profit. Sturle has done the opposite (even though he is probably the person in this thread who could cause the biggest panic by starting to say negative stuff about gox) and for that he deserves a good amount of respect. I do not think the banksters you are comparing him to would do that.

By the way here is a timeline of how he explained the situation you are complaining about, hope it makes things more clear:
1. Mt gox lag goes to 1 minute.
2. Sturles bot pulls his orders.
3. Mt gox lag goes to 2 minutes.
4. You place your market order, still seeing the bots order in the book because of the lag, but it has already been removed.

[Bitsinmyhead]

Josh, This is a great idea but I'm not sure you're trustworthy enough as a counterparty. This is kinda a tricky problem to solve with current tech.

Just wanted to chime in and say that joshbb seems very trustworthy to me. I have been using his bitmadness site a lot and it is awesome. Will be depositing 5BTC to his exchange and hope we can get a market going over there.

[whave]

MtGox will resume bitcoin withdrawals to outside wallets once the issue outlined above has been properly addressed in a manner that will best serve our customers.

Dear Mark, What will best serve me,as your customer, is that you get your act together and find a quick workaround like all other exchanges to finally process btc withdrawals.

But am sure you'll keep saying we ain't doing nothing till bitcoin is forked!

+1  my funds have been held hostage since jan 27  since I paid 25 percent markup to these scum and have gone down from 820 to 620 mark you are raping your cutomers ty for your understanding.

Bawwwwwwww you did not get a 20% arbitage with 0% risk, keep crying louder and louder you big wuss. You realise there wouldn't be a markup if there were no withdrawal problems in the first place? You bought yourself into a risky situation and can't handle it, no one is sad for you.

rpietila being the other huge wuss, SUEYOUSUEYOU CUZ IM MURCAN AND SUE ERRYTHANG, sturle must be crapping his pants in Norwegia.

Do you guys actually realise, that there are hundreds of thousands of mtgox users, and yet all we can see is the same 5 nicks crying 24/7? Yes, to us, you are the idiots who keep spreading fud and keep ignoring the facts.

[Zarathustra]

@rpietila
You really need to take a few deep breaths.

I totally agree with you that Mt. Gox is a bunch of liars and running their exchange in an immoral way. However, sturle has been 100% up front with everything. He has pretty much been telling everyone here exactly what he is doing and still managed to own a lot of people pretty hard. Most in his position would try to spread even more fear and try to move the price in a way that would make them the most profit. Sturle has done the opposite (even though he is probably the person in this thread who could cause the biggest panic by starting to say negative stuff about gox) and for that he deserves a good amount of respect.

Deserves zero respect. Rpietila is right. Sturle defended the criminal business behavior of the notorious liars at any time.

[rpietila]

He has pretty much been telling everyone here exactly what he is doing and still managed to own a lot of people pretty hard.

No. Everybody following sturle's advice still has their value tied up in Gox, which at this point equals to theft, with the caveat that the thief may at his sole discretion give the funds back, but has until now shown no inclination to do so (to the general public me included at least).

By the way here is a timeline of how he explained the situation you are complaining about, hope it makes things more clear:
1. Mt gox lag goes to 1 minute.
2. Sturles bot pulls his orders.
3. Mt gox lag goes to 2 minutes.
4. You place your market order, still seeing the bots order in the book because of the lag, but it has already been removed.

The goxlag shot to 2 minutes solely as a result of my order. Before the order it was ~1 second.

My hunch is that goxlag is operated auto-manually.

Even if not, Sturle confessed that his bot has priority access to remove the orders when goxlag hits a certain threshold, without regard that the lag is caused by a single market order under execution. To even program your trading engine so as to enable this feature, requires evil imagination.

Check the logs, it is all public, and I even took screenshots. Next time anyone do a critical market order, take a screenvideo. That'll teach them 

[joshbb]

Just wanted to chime in and say that joshbb seems very trustworthy to me. I have been using his bitmadness site a lot and it is awesome. Will be depositing 5BTC to his exchange and hope we can get a market going over there.

Awesome, thanks for the vote of confidence! And I hope so too! 

[Rampion]

Rpietila, I agree what Gox is doing is criminal and Sturle's shilling is highly suspicious, but let me tell you that you suck very hard at Bitcoin risk management.

First you bring an unsecured laptop without password and with thousands of bitcoins on it to a "BTC millionaires gathering" that had been viciously advertised all over the Internet. Then you store hundreds of BTC in a place which has been giving clear insolvency signals since April.

Serious Risto, Wtf?