MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]

[stompix]

Rpietila, I agree what Gox is doing is criminal and Sturle's shilling is highly suspicious, but let me tell you that you suck very hard at Bitcoin risk management.

First you bring an unsecured laptop without password and with thousands of bitcoins on it to a "BTC millionaires gathering" that had been viciously advertised all over the Internet. Then you store hundreds of BTC in a place which has been giving clear insolvency signals since April.

Serious Risto, Wtf?

People who make bitcoin price predictions with two pages posts , who keep talking like they know everything about trading about how bitcoins works and how the future will unfold , do make children mistakes and lose all their bitcoins.

Giving advice is one , securing your own stash is something different.

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[Bitsinmyhead]

The goxlag shot to 2 minutes solely as a result of my order. Before the order it was ~1 second.

My hunch is that goxlag is operated auto-manually.

At 9:57 I enter a market order to buy 700 bitcoins. The goxlag is about 2 minutes, after which I learn that I only get like 470 bitcoins.

I guess I misunderstood what you were saying then...

My point is that sturle is probably the one right now with most money tied up at Mt. Gox, that is why you have to respect him. He is putting his money where his mouth is. He also seems to have put a lot of time into doing research about the situation. If he really was such a shady character as some of you try to make him out to be, he surely could have caused a lot more trouble for everyone listening to him.

[rpietila]

you suck very hard at Bitcoin risk management.

Or risk management in general. That's why I am so poor and miserable.

[Rampion]

you suck very hard at Bitcoin risk management.

Or risk management in general. That's why I am so poor and miserable.

Its obvious that everybody who invested in BTC in 2012 is doing pretty well. Honestly, you don't need to be a mastah tradah to do that, being in the "right place at the right moment" plus a little bit of intuition will just do the trick.

But I wonder how you didn't see this coming. Its clear since June/July that Gox was going to fuck up really hard.

BTW, did Sturle honor his offer to buy your emptygoxBTC at 90%?

[el_rlee]

If I had imported a private key on Gox previously, is that by definition an "internal wallet"?

[Rampion]

If I had imported a private key on Gox previously, is that by definition an "internal wallet"?

I think yes, AFAIK you are just swiping the imported address to a Gox internal address

[mike81]

So maybe someone can explain me this. If i check the mtgox orderbook on bitcoinity it seems there isn't much left. Only 607 BTC in sell orders and even less in buy orders. Is that right? They still have some volume so that's just BTC vs USD going around in circles it seems. And Gox taking a fee every trade...

EDIT: Never mind, the bitcoinity charts on the blockchain website don't show the orderbook. On bitcoinity website it shows the lot.

And on another note, has someone had SEPA withdrawals processed since friday? Gox claims that is still working. Would be nice to see some proof of that in this thread.

[earonesty]

So maybe someone can explain me this. If i check the mtgox orderbook on bitcoinity it seems there isn't much left. Only 607 BTC in sell orders and even less in buy orders. Is that right? They still have some volume so that's just BTC vs USD going around in circles it seems. And Gox taking a fee every trade...

And on another note, has someone had SEPA withdrawals processed since friday? Gox claims that is still working. Would be nice to see some proof of that in this thread.

Gox users were fleeing to other exchanges.   Gox halted withdrawals because they didn't have enough coin.   Fortunately the market plunged.... so Gox could buy back what they needed to pay of it's accounts.   Because of the dip, they're flush... but no one cares anymore.   As soon as they start allowing withdrawals, they will be ended. 

[rpietila]

Giving advice is one , securing your own stash is something different.

"Securing" a "stash" of 256-bit strings of information of an experimental technology in beta...    

The closest to securing bitcoins, as I see it, is offline-generated paper wallets printed and physically cut into pieces stored in separate locations, with 2 instances of each piece. This is what I solicit also to my clients.

The reason to keep bitcoins in 3rd party systems is not securing them, but using them, or speculating with them. In order for these to be possible, the systems need to work honestly.

After recovering from the crash to 382 (during which I had made a nice chunk of money), I sold too early in 600-700, and as a result lost much more than in this gox-bank-run case (compared to selling at 800-1000, which I would have done if I had not sold already). I don't recall even once lamenting over this money. Why? This money I lost because of my own fault, and there was no malice involved.

I also quickly ate the loss of BTC1 in transaction fees to Easywallet, which I found extortionate (0.9% of the sum), but they had indeed changed their terms since last time (when it was fixed 0.002), and given the nature of Easywallet's service, they had no way to inform me about it, so the fault was again mine.

The market leader Mt.Gox who has my email, home address, SSN, passport pic, etc. and whose top-tier customer I have been since 2011, has no excuse for their misinformation policy. During my struggle to get my money out, I exchanged messages with them (and with sturle), with the result that after a month of trying, I now have my bitcoins, but their number is much smaller than the original value I diligently but in vain tried to withdraw in every way they and sturle claim to be possible but in fact are not (proving in the process that they are possible to some).

I have already expounded the allegation that Mt.Gox action so far is indeed a crime, and I am available to be contacted by people seeking to sue them in a suitable criminal court.

The important part of the post begins now:
1. People can lose money because of stupidity, and that is lamentable.
2. But when people lose money because of crime, the criminal should be prosecuted.

Anyone who thinks that liberty means liberty to defraud others, is wrong.

Note that I am taking a risk even replying to sb with a new account. Please try to continue the conversation in a positive way.

[rpietila]

I'm whatnow? Me? Why? My involvement with MtGox illegalities  - -

Not you. sturle

Its obvious that everybody who invested in BTC in 2012 is doing pretty well. Honestly, you don't need to be a mastah tradah to do that, being in the "right place at the right moment" plus a little bit of intuition will just do the trick.

But I wonder how you didn't see this coming. Its clear since June/July that Gox was going to fuck up really hard.

BTW, did Sturle honor his offer to buy your emptygoxBTC at 90%?

It is tedious to write to you because in general you are a solid poster, but if you don't get it, you just don't get it, and go to great lengths to embarrass yourself when everyone else already gets it, and you don't, and don't even see that the others do. (re: China arbitrage without fiat deposit/withdrawal opportunity)

So unfortunately I won't open up the discussion about dispersed bitcoin wealth management because you won't get it and it's off topic here. Suffice to say that in 2012 I lost $110k in several separate failed non-bitcoin investments but "luckily" made it with Bitcoin. It is highly unlikely that anyone with 10k+ bitcoins now has never lost money in their life.

Yes, Sturle did buy some of it.

[Taborresen]

So maybe someone can explain me this. If i check the mtgox orderbook on bitcoinity it seems there isn't much left. Only 607 BTC in sell orders and even less in buy orders. Is that right? They still have some volume so that's just BTC vs USD going around in circles it seems. And Gox taking a fee every trade...

And on another note, has someone had SEPA withdrawals processed since friday? Gox claims that is still working. Would be nice to see some proof of that in this thread.

Gox users were fleeing to other exchanges.   Gox halted withdrawals because they didn't have enough coin.   Fortunately the market plunged.... so Gox could buy back what they needed to pay of it's accounts.   Because of the dip, they're flush... but no one cares anymore.   As soon as they start allowing withdrawals, they will be ended. 

Is this speculations or is there proof?

[rpietila]

Gox halted withdrawals because they didn't have enough coin.

Is this speculations or is there proof?

Proving non-existence of information (their lack of access to private keys associated with enough positive entries in the ledger) is pretty fn hard!

This is why, fortunately, the burden of proof is on Mt.Gox, who can rather easily prove that they HAVE the coins. So far this proof is lacking, and they have repeatedly failed even in a subset of proof, providing full and timely withdrawals to everyone who so requests.

[zyk]

So maybe someone can explain me this. If i check the mtgox orderbook on bitcoinity it seems there isn't much left. Only 607 BTC in sell orders and even less in buy orders. Is that right? They still have some volume so that's just BTC vs USD going around in circles it seems. And Gox taking a fee every trade...

EDIT: Never mind, the bitcoinity charts on the blockchain website don't show the orderbook. On bitcoinity website it shows the lot.

And on another note, has someone had SEPA withdrawals processed since friday? Gox claims that is still working. Would be nice to see some proof of that in this thread.

So nobody got any monies via Sepa or a Yen withdrawl processed since Friday ( wasn´t that the topic of this thread)    ?

[stompix]

Giving advice is one , securing your own stash is something different.

The important part of the post begins now:
1. People can lose money because of stupidity, and that is lamentable.
2. But when people lose money because of crime, the criminal should be prosecuted.

Anyone who thinks that liberty means liberty to defraud others, is wrong.

Note that I am taking a risk even replying to sb with a new account. Please try to continue the conversation in a positive way.

Playing around with a laptop that contains an unencrypted wallet is 1 or 2? Or both?
There is nothing positive about this conversation so I can't continue it that way.

[sturle]

Conclusion: Bitcoin-Qt/bitcoind does not track changed transactions properly.  Changed transactions will show up as a new transaction, and I would need the  "new txid" thing to track those properly.  It is not only MtGox.  Services using bitcoind, like mine, may be vulnerable as well.

Hm, wonder if this explains why I've heard all other exchanges updating their systems as well. I believe this mutability issue is not as "insignificant" as the core dev team is attempting to convey.

Yes, the problem may be sperading.  I have been waiting more than three hours now for the withdrawal of the rest of my BTC from Bitstamp.  #bitcoin-otc is full of other people with the same problem.  Anyone else experiencing problems withdrawing BTC from other exchanges today?  The withdrawal is marked "Finished" in my Bitstamp transaction history.  I have tried to contact support there, but no answer yet.

[raskul]

Conclusion: Bitcoin-Qt/bitcoind does not track changed transactions properly.  Changed transactions will show up as a new transaction, and I would need the  "new txid" thing to track those properly.  It is not only MtGox.  Services using bitcoind, like mine, may be vulnerable as well.

Hm, wonder if this explains why I've heard all other exchanges updating their systems as well. I believe this mutability issue is not as "insignificant" as the core dev team is attempting to convey.

Yes, the problem may be sperading.  I have been waiting more than three hours now for the withdrawal of the rest of my BTC from Bitstamp.  #bitcoin-otc is full of other people with the same problem.  Anyone else experiencing problems withdrawing BTC from other exchanges today?  The withdrawal is marked "Finished" in my Bitstamp transaction history.  I have tried to contact support there, but no answer yet.

you make it up as you go along. nobody in the entire universe except you is having problems with bitstamp

 

[phelix]

soo... has anybody received any fiat from Gox today or yesterday?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=428242 (Japan)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=189977 (SEPA)

[sturle]

.....

Seriously Sturle, WTF??

Bitcoin-qt/bitcoind vulnerable to what??? To 0 confirmations transactions??

Are you kidding?  Read again.  The issue is *not* 0 confirmations and *not* double spending.  It is connecting the unconfirmed transaction with the confirmed transaction to be able to calculate the correct price even if a third party has changed the transaction since the sender sent it.  No, I am not sending any money until the transaction is confirmed.  Please at least try to grasp the issue before making a fool out of yourself.

About malleability: it's a known and documented issue, its been on the Wiki for months if not years. You are running a service based on bitcoind, so I WANT TO BELIEVE that you have read the Bitcoin wiki - it's not too long. If you did, you should know that transaction ID's CAN be changed by a malicious third party. The coins still go to the address they were supposed to, there's no way to "hack" bitcoin to steal those coins, but the transaction ID can be changed - and thus you do not base your automated processes on transaction IDs - full stop.

It is known and documented, but as you see not even bitcoind or Bitcoin-Qt can handle it gracefully.

[Newar]

About malleability: it's a known and documented issue, its been on the Wiki for months if not years. [...]

It is known and documented, [...]

The question remains why MtGox took so long to pull this rabbit out of their hat? A convenient excuse. They could have voiced their concerns earlier.

[alfabitcoin]

About malleability: it's a known and documented issue, its been on the Wiki for months if not years. [...]

It is known and documented, [...]

The question remains why MtGox took so long to pull this rabbit out of their hat? A convenient excuse. They could have voiced their concerns earlier.

They have two system bugs what was never explained and that bugs cased this mees e.g. tx in the limbo in the first place.Mallebility issue is just a cover story.