[Work in progess] Burnins Avalon Chip to mining board service

[SebastianJu]

I think that is more to discourage the pain in the ass they are having with all the ebay preorder sales and such. I am sure people are upset about being scammed on ebay and it is probably more of a measure to protect the customer.

I paid through paypal to burnin and paypal called me within an hour to make sure everything was legit before they sent my money. They said they had no issue with it. So I don't think people need to be worrying so much. He is selling physical items that he can show shipped to paypal if someone tries to dispute it, so I think he is fine. Also remember he is getting his funds from more than one source, so the risk is not as bad as you all seem to think.

As an alternative, google checkout/wallet might be something to add to the store. 

Im referring to this: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1iyzkg/if_you_get_caught_selling_bitcoin_hardware_on/
There paypal demands not to sell bitcoin mining machines... of course only if its true.

Worse is that you can't access your money, and time is crucial for BTC projects.
If I can offer piece of advice to burnin; I would remove PayPal payment option, refund those who paid with it already and advise them to use BTC or bank wire transfer as payment method.

You guys don't think like a business manager and it is crazy to see how flustered everyone gets. By doing this I would imagine he would lose at least 25% of his sales volume. I know I wouldn't have been able to order my miners if this was the case. Not everyone is in the EU to do a bank wire and buying bitcoin in volume is still not easy and sometimes means a loss of 5% or more. Also anyone that wanted to buy with a credit card would not have been able to order from him. I think he is smart and has diversified his incoming funds. Adding more options would be even better, like setting up a cc merchant account. He can always withdraw the funds from paypal as they come in to reduce any risk of his funds being on hold due to an audit. Even in the small chance that did happen, it is easy to keep the account balance low and he would minimize his risk.

Im always wondering when people ask me to pay with fiat or paypal. I mean this is a "bitcoin" forum and then some dont even have a wallet? Buying bitcoins is not really a problem. One can chose from a big list of exchangers and the fees involved arent really deadly. Time isnt a big problem either when checking out the speed of the exchanges before.
Only saying... im wondering...

[1714151896]

1714151896

[1714151896]

1714151896

[guitar82]

I personally had to pay 5% extra to go from cash to bitcoins for my chip order, which was almost $100 premium and it took some time to do. That plus the bitpay exchange rate used would leave me short funds for a whole board or more. I don't think Paypal isn't the best exchange, I prefer google checkout, but bitcoin is not as easy to buy when the better payment methods start getting taken away by the government.

I didn't realize we had an option of a bank wire as he mentioned a sepa wire, which is a European union thing. Guess I don't wire money enough to know.

[ecliptic]

I think that is more to discourage the pain in the ass they are having with all the ebay preorder sales and such. I am sure people are upset about being scammed on ebay and it is probably more of a measure to protect the customer.

I paid through paypal to burnin and paypal called me within an hour to make sure everything was legit before they sent my money. They said they had no issue with it. So I don't think people need to be worrying so much. He is selling physical items that he can show shipped to paypal if someone tries to dispute it, so I think he is fine. Also remember he is getting his funds from more than one source, so the risk is not as bad as you all seem to think.

As an alternative, google checkout/wallet might be something to add to the store. 

Im referring to this: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1iyzkg/if_you_get_caught_selling_bitcoin_hardware_on/
There paypal demands not to sell bitcoin mining machines... of course only if its true.

Worse is that you can't access your money, and time is crucial for BTC projects.
If I can offer piece of advice to burnin; I would remove PayPal payment option, refund those who paid with it already and advise them to use BTC or bank wire transfer as payment method.

You guys don't think like a business manager and it is crazy to see how flustered everyone gets. By doing this I would imagine he would lose at least 25% of his sales volume. I know I wouldn't have been able to order my miners if this was the case. Not everyone is in the EU to do a bank wire and buying bitcoin in volume is still not easy and sometimes means a loss of 5% or more. Also anyone that wanted to buy with a credit card would not have been able to order from him. I think he is smart and has diversified his incoming funds. Adding more options would be even better, like setting up a cc merchant account. He can always withdraw the funds from paypal as they come in to reduce any risk of his funds being on hold due to an audit. Even in the small chance that did happen, it is easy to keep the account balance low and he would minimize his risk.

Im always wondering when people ask me to pay with fiat or paypal. I mean this is a "bitcoin" forum and then some dont even have a wallet? Buying bitcoins is not really a problem. One can chose from a big list of exchangers and the fees involved arent really deadly. Time isnt a big problem either when checking out the speed of the exchanges before.
Only saying... im wondering...

It takes fucking forever to get btc with USD on exchanges

[g83]

How many PSUs do i need to order to run 30 Boards with 20 Chips each... And do i need to buy a splitter or something like that for the 6 pin power connectors ??

[SebastianJu]

I personally had to pay 5% extra to go from cash to bitcoins for my chip order, which was almost $100 premium and it took some time to do. That plus the bitpay exchange rate used would leave me short funds for a whole board or more. I don't think Paypal isn't the best exchange, I prefer google checkout, but bitcoin is not as easy to buy when the better payment methods start getting taken away by the government.

I didn't realize we had an option of a bank wire as he mentioned a sepa wire, which is a European union thing. Guess I don't wire money enough to know.

Where has one to pay 5%? oO I only know this from localbitcoins because work is involved to get fiat in hands. For example using bitstamp is 0.5% fee only. Thats pretty normal for exchanges. The bitcoin price is low there too because many cash bitcoins out there. They have a fast and working cashout, not like mtgox. So you could buy bitcoins for a lower price there. In fact for the normal price that bitinstant is using too.

Bitpay exchange rate is more normal than the one at mtgox. Check out bitcoincharts to see the average price. I believe mtgox price is higher because they have so much problems with paying out cash. It takes weeks and months to get your money to your bank account. So no one is selling at mtgox and the price is higher than normal.

It takes fucking forever to get btc with USD on exchanges

Why? I normally send euro and it reaches very fast. I wonder why it shouldnt work for usd. I mean bitstamp IS even in USD only.

How many PSUs do i need to order to run 30 Boards with 20 Chips each... And do i need to buy a splitter or something like that for the 6 pin power connectors ??

Depends what MHz you run the chips, what voltage and so. Ill let them run at 450MHz and 1.3V and they will eat 93W each miner. So you would buy 3 psu with 1000W for example so each psu powers 10 miner. Or 2 1500W psu's.

[neslekkim]

So ... burnin ... you gonna contact myself and ckolivas at some time to send us one each?
We support the hardware coz we have the hardware ...
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=28402.msg2689800#msg2689800

Edit: oh and in case anyone was thinking of using an RPi (like I have and do use) make sure you use Arch not Raspbian
http://www.kano-kun.net/?p=87
Raspbian fails badly with USB1.1 devices.

Thanks for the clear tutorial for RPi - would have saved me a lot of time if I knew about it before!  I will check out Arch but I've actually been using stock Raspian with my CM1s and have no problems at all.

Unfortunately though due to this "unless you give us free hardware" policy I can no longer use cgminer with my CM1s so have had to switch camps to the BFGminer which remains open and cooperative with any hardware manufacturer.  I understand that you want to test hardware directly but many people have offered to debug, provide you whatever info you need, and even provide remote access to systems with miners - yet it seems you actually just want free hardware  If that's your commercial model, then I get it - just wish I knew upfront before buying into cgminer.

CGMiner used to work like a dream, then they rewrote the USB stack and broke it (but is much more efficient for those it works for) - and now won't fix it because nobody gave kano a free CM1.  Cautionary tale  - other miners are available  ;-)

For free?, but you want to use the software for free right?
It takes a lot to develop and maintain software, and best way of getting things fixed fast and correct is to have the actual hardware instead of creating lots of debug versions to get people around to try, and sending info back and forth before software is finished.

[robix]

So ... burnin ... you gonna contact myself and ckolivas at some time to send us one each?
We support the hardware coz we have the hardware ...
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=28402.msg2689800#msg2689800

Edit: oh and in case anyone was thinking of using an RPi (like I have and do use) make sure you use Arch not Raspbian
http://www.kano-kun.net/?p=87
Raspbian fails badly with USB1.1 devices.

Thanks for the clear tutorial for RPi - would have saved me a lot of time if I knew about it before!  I will check out Arch but I've actually been using stock Raspian with my CM1s and have no problems at all.

Unfortunately though due to this "unless you give us free hardware" policy I can no longer use cgminer with my CM1s so have had to switch camps to the BFGminer which remains open and cooperative with any hardware manufacturer.  I understand that you want to test hardware directly but many people have offered to debug, provide you whatever info you need, and even provide remote access to systems with miners - yet it seems you actually just want free hardware  If that's your commercial model, then I get it - just wish I knew upfront before buying into cgminer.

CGMiner used to work like a dream, then they rewrote the USB stack and broke it (but is much more efficient for those it works for) - and now won't fix it because nobody gave kano a free CM1.  Cautionary tale  - other miners are available  ;-)

It makes me sick seeing someone want something for free and not giving anything in return, over and over again.
Wanting something in return for your work and support on other hand is fine by me knowing that probably 1% or even less of those using cgminer ever sent even satoshi as tip for those guys work.

Imagine burnin left us choice to pay or take bitburner's xx for free. How many would pay? I guess not many and even less if they could stay anonymous. Try walking in other people shoes from time to time.

I just hope RPi burnin is selling in his webshop is compatible.

For free?, but you want to use the software for free right?
It takes a lot to develop and maintain software, and best way of getting things fixed fast and correct is to have the actual hardware instead of creating lots of debug versions to get people around to try, and sending info back and forth before software is finished.

I think you misunderstood him.

[Japs2013]

It takes fucking forever to get btc with USD on exchanges

In NL there are several services where you pay using your bank card and get your BTC just 1 second after finishing the payment. There must be similar international services I would assume.

[2weiX]

I was making a hasted decision when ordering and paying before.

Please cancel order #548
Please accept orders #728, #729, #730, #731, #732 as replacements.

I have already paid order #548 to the amount of €2,132.48
I have this time around entered my VAT number (I run Bitcoincommodities.com, VAT number is DE279330777).
However, at checkout I still had VAT included. I placed the orders anyways.
Please send me new invoices for the new orders without VAT.

If you want to refund the total amount for order #548 and want me to make new payments, I would agree.
I would also agree to only refuding the left-over after the recalculation for the total of all orders regarding VAT.

I am terribly, terribly sorry for messing this up.
I was eagerly awaiting the opening of your store, which didn't work out as planned, and when I next had the opportunity to place my orders it was after a full day of brewing (and, of course, tasting!) very, very smooth beer at a local brewery.

It's all my fault.
I hope you can still manage to help me out, here.

[neslekkim]

I think you misunderstood him.

Yeah, corrected, thanks.

[alfabitcoin]

I was making a hasted decision when ordering and paying before.

Please cancel order #548
Please accept orders #728, #729, #730, #731, #732 as replacements.

I have already paid order #548 to the amount of €2,132.48
I have this time around entered my VAT number (I run Bitcoincommodities.com, VAT number is DE279330777).
However, at checkout I still had VAT included. I placed the orders anyways.
Please send me new invoices for the new orders without VAT.

If you want to refund the total amount for order #548 and want me to make new payments, I would agree.
I would also agree to only refuding the left-over after the recalculation for the total of all orders regarding VAT.

I am terribly, terribly sorry for messing this up.
I was eagerly awaiting the opening of your store, which didn't work out as planned, and when I next had the opportunity to place my orders it was after a full day of brewing (and, of course, tasting!) very, very smooth beer at a local brewery.

It's all my fault.
I hope you can still manage to help me out, here.

May I ask how tax return work in Germany? I supose you have registered company  in Germany? So you get inovice with VAT and pay it but that Vat (+ other vat from inovices what your company has paid in x period) is deducted from inovice vat (total vat from issued inovice in x period) what your company issue to your customers and have tax return on mothly or 3 month basis.

[tiros]

I was making a hasted decision when ordering and paying before.

Please cancel order #548
Please accept orders #728, #729, #730, #731, #732 as replacements.

I have already paid order #548 to the amount of €2,132.48
I have this time around entered my VAT number (I run Bitcoincommodities.com, VAT number is DE279330777).
However, at checkout I still had VAT included. I placed the orders anyways.
Please send me new invoices for the new orders without VAT.

If you want to refund the total amount for order #548 and want me to make new payments, I would agree.
I would also agree to only refuding the left-over after the recalculation for the total of all orders regarding VAT.

I am terribly, terribly sorry for messing this up.
I was eagerly awaiting the opening of your store, which didn't work out as planned, and when I next had the opportunity to place my orders it was after a full day of brewing (and, of course, tasting!) very, very smooth beer at a local brewery.

It's all my fault.
I hope you can still manage to help me out, here.

Use contact form from burnin's web site, he is rather fast to reply and fix things up.
http://www.burninmining.com/contact/

I think you misunderstood him.

Looks like he did

[solari]

I was making a hasted decision when ordering and paying before.

Please cancel order #548
Please accept orders #728, #729, #730, #731, #732 as replacements.

I have already paid order #548 to the amount of €2,132.48
I have this time around entered my VAT number (I run Bitcoincommodities.com, VAT number is DE279330777).
However, at checkout I still had VAT included. I placed the orders anyways.
Please send me new invoices for the new orders without VAT.

If you want to refund the total amount for order #548 and want me to make new payments, I would agree.
I would also agree to only refuding the left-over after the recalculation for the total of all orders regarding VAT.

I am terribly, terribly sorry for messing this up.
I was eagerly awaiting the opening of your store, which didn't work out as planned, and when I next had the opportunity to place my orders it was after a full day of brewing (and, of course, tasting!) very, very smooth beer at a local brewery.

It's all my fault.
I hope you can still manage to help me out, here.

Burnin will ship the Bitburners from Germany to Germany.
In this case he have to charge the VAT.
There is no other way.

[alfabitcoin]

I was making a hasted decision when ordering and paying before.

Please cancel order #548
Please accept orders #728, #729, #730, #731, #732 as replacements.

I have already paid order #548 to the amount of €2,132.48
I have this time around entered my VAT number (I run Bitcoincommodities.com, VAT number is DE279330777).
However, at checkout I still had VAT included. I placed the orders anyways.
Please send me new invoices for the new orders without VAT.

If you want to refund the total amount for order #548 and want me to make new payments, I would agree.
I would also agree to only refuding the left-over after the recalculation for the total of all orders regarding VAT.

I am terribly, terribly sorry for messing this up.
I was eagerly awaiting the opening of your store, which didn't work out as planned, and when I next had the opportunity to place my orders it was after a full day of brewing (and, of course, tasting!) very, very smooth beer at a local brewery.

It's all my fault.
I hope you can still manage to help me out, here.

Burnin will ship the Bitburners from Germany to Germany.
In this case he have to charge the VAT.
There is no other way.

True, that is what I thought. That Vat will be deducted by your company accountant in tax return.

[jlsminingcorp]

Where has one to pay 5%? oO I only know this from localbitcoins because work is involved to get fiat in hands. For example using bitstamp is 0.5% fee only. Thats pretty normal for exchanges. The bitcoin price is low there too because many cash bitcoins out there. They have a fast and working cashout, not like mtgox. So you could buy bitcoins for a lower price there. In fact for the normal price that bitinstant is using too.

Bitpay exchange rate is more normal than the one at mtgox. Check out bitcoincharts to see the average price. I believe mtgox price is higher because they have so much problems with paying out cash. It takes weeks and months to get your money to your bank account. So no one is selling at mtgox and the price is higher than normal.

It takes fucking forever to get btc with USD on exchanges

Why? I normally send euro and it reaches very fast. I wonder why it shouldnt work for usd. I mean bitstamp IS even in USD only.

Hi SebastianJu, I'm not sure about how others get their BTC, but I've not been able to find a cheap way to buy them from the UK yet - maybe others have suggestions (via CurrencyFair??, this seems as though it would be slow though). I've had good experiences with bitstamp and their fees are quite reasonable, but we get ripped off by UK banks for the SEPA transfers and GBP-EUR exchange required to get funds to bitstamp. UK banks seem to have some special arrangement that enables them to ignore European agreements on SEPA transfers and so they charge large fees for this (mine charges a flat fee for each transfer that means only reasonably sizeable transfers make sense, otherwise the % charge may be several %). If you add on top of that the poor GBP-EUR exchange rates that the banks offer then it can easily cost 5% or more to buy BTC. Unfortunately very little of that goes to BTC-friendly causes, most goes straight to the bank . It actually makes me quite angry that our banks can "opt-out" of the SEPA, but this is probably not the place for me to rant about this .

[tigerbit]

Hi SebastianJu, I'm not sure about how others get their BTC, but I've not been able to find a cheap way to buy them from the UK yet - maybe others have suggestions (via CurrencyFair??, this seems as though it would be slow though). I've had good experiences with bitstamp and their fees are quite reasonable, but we get ripped off by UK banks for the SEPA transfers and GBP-EUR exchange required to get funds to bitstamp. UK banks seem to have some special arrangement that enables them to ignore European agreements on SEPA transfers and so they charge large fees for this (mine charges a flat fee for each transfer that means only reasonably sizeable transfers make sense, otherwise the % charge may be several %). If you add on top of that the poor GBP-EUR exchange rates that the banks offer then it can easily cost 5% or more to buy BTC. Unfortunately very little of that goes to BTC-friendly causes, most goes straight to the bank . It actually makes me quite angry that our banks can "opt-out" of the SEPA, but this is probably not the place for me to rant about this .

Yes, we're veering off topic.  It can be done, very cheaply even in the UK.
Citibank UK EURO Current Account (Monthly fee about £8 or free if you push £1800 per month through it)
Transferwise (referral link) http://transferwise.com/u/6de1 to convert GBP into EUR (pretty much at the wholesale spot rate plus a couple of quid)
SEPA transfer from Citi EURO account to wherever (e.g. Bitstamp/Burnin) - FREE.

The downside is it takes about 5 days to get GBP into BTC, especially if I've not got a float in the EUR account.

Other UK alternative is Bitbargain https://bitbargain.co.uk/tutorial?r=tigerbit
Sometimes there are sellers that are selling close to MtGox bid price, but volumes are lower obviously.  More expensive, but safe and FAST - UK faster payments or Barclays PingIT mean transactions often take just a matter of minutes.

[jlsminingcorp]

Yes, we're veering off topic.  It can be done, very cheaply even in the UK.
Citibank UK EURO Current Account (Monthly fee about £8 or free if you push £1800 per month through it)
Transferwise (referral link) http://transferwise.com/u/6de1 to convert GBP into EUR (pretty much at the wholesale spot rate plus a couple of quid)
SEPA transfer from Citi EURO account to wherever (e.g. Bitstamp) - FREE.

The downside is it takes about 5 days to get GBP into BTC, especially if I've not got a float in the EUR account.

Thanks tigerbit, that's useful to know. Back to the topic in hand now (sorry for the bank rant, it's just one of those things that gets on my nerves!)

[tarmi]

I was making a hasted decision when ordering and paying before.

Please cancel order #548
Please accept orders #728, #729, #730, #731, #732 as replacements.

I have already paid order #548 to the amount of €2,132.48
I have this time around entered my VAT number (I run Bitcoincommodities.com, VAT number is DE279330777).
However, at checkout I still had VAT included. I placed the orders anyways.
Please send me new invoices for the new orders without VAT.

If you want to refund the total amount for order #548 and want me to make new payments, I would agree.
I would also agree to only refuding the left-over after the recalculation for the total of all orders regarding VAT.

I am terribly, terribly sorry for messing this up.
I was eagerly awaiting the opening of your store, which didn't work out as planned, and when I next had the opportunity to place my orders it was after a full day of brewing (and, of course, tasting!) very, very smooth beer at a local brewery.

It's all my fault.
I hope you can still manage to help me out, here.

Burnin will ship the Bitburners from Germany to Germany.
In this case he have to charge the VAT.
There is no other way.

that is not true.

in fact, he could send appropriate MwSt papers with the receipt even when shipping to Germany, and with those papers you can show the goods on your way out of Germany (and EU), and then ask for the refund from the german custom officers.

if you are a citizen of a non-EU country.

[alexuk]

whats the expected hashing rate at 450mhz? 450m/hash? right?

[burnin]

I was making a hasted decision when ordering and paying before.

Please cancel order #548
Please accept orders #728, #729, #730, #731, #732 as replacements.

I have already paid order #548 to the amount of €2,132.48
I have this time around entered my VAT number (I run Bitcoincommodities.com, VAT number is DE279330777).
However, at checkout I still had VAT included. I placed the orders anyways.
Please send me new invoices for the new orders without VAT.

If you want to refund the total amount for order #548 and want me to make new payments, I would agree.
I would also agree to only refuding the left-over after the recalculation for the total of all orders regarding VAT.

I am terribly, terribly sorry for messing this up.
I was eagerly awaiting the opening of your store, which didn't work out as planned, and when I next had the opportunity to place my orders it was after a full day of brewing (and, of course, tasting!) very, very smooth beer at a local brewery.

It's all my fault.
I hope you can still manage to help me out, here.

Burnin will ship the Bitburners from Germany to Germany.
In this case he have to charge the VAT.
There is no other way.

that is not true.

in fact, he could send appropriate MwSt papers with the receipt even when shipping to Germany, and with those papers you can show the goods on your way out of Germany (and EU), and then ask for the refund from the german custom officers.

if you are a citizen of a non-EU country.

He is German and therefore has to pay VAT even when ordering as a company.
Then he can then get the VAT back from the Finanzamt.

whats the expected hashing rate at 450mhz? 450m/hash? right?

450Mhash multiplied by the number of chips on the board.