[Work in progess] Burnins Avalon Chip to mining board service

[fydel]

With ASICMINER today announcing blades for as low as 3.5BTC, it appeared that Avalon chips that do not mine today are not going to break even any more. While those blades went already out of stock after some hours, the new price for mining rig is officially set. Essentially this means that if Avalon does not ship the remaining chips fully within the next two weeks, they become worth less than their shipping costs.

After reading the above in another thread I would like to ask whether burnin could offer some kind of upgrade option for existing and paid Avalon orders to BitFury chips - in a way that he retains his well-deserved profit, of course.

It is really a pity that his excellent work is overshadowed by Bitsyncom's inability to keep its promises.

+1

That would be great, as 100% refunds seem to be quite difficult.

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[lemonte]

With ASICMINER today announcing blades for as low as 3.5BTC, it appeared that Avalon chips that do not mine today are not going to break even any more. While those blades went already out of stock after some hours, the new price for mining rig is officially set. Essentially this means that if Avalon does not ship the remaining chips fully within the next two weeks, they become worth less than their shipping costs.

After reading the above in another thread I would like to ask whether burnin could offer some kind of upgrade option for existing and paid Avalon orders to BitFury chips - in a way that he retains his well-deserved profit, of course.

It is really a pity that his excellent work is overshadowed by Bitsyncom's inability to keep its promises.

+1

That would be great, as 100% refunds seem to be quite difficult.

All for that, I plan to put my refunded money into Bitfury chips, or maybe Cointerra if anyone ends up doing a group buy. I'd happily let Burnin keep my money as credit until a time arrives where he can produce boards for those chips.

[-Redacted-]

I second that...

[Roy Badami]

Well, so it *appears* from other threads that YiFu is going to offer to refund undelivered batches of chips.

It *appears* from other threads that most people seem to want the group buys to go down the refund route.

This looks like it is going to get messy for everyone involved.  At a minimum, it is going to be a lot of extra administrative work for burnin, zefir, Sebastian (and others).

Primarily, I'd like to see a solution that doesn't result in burnin, zefir or Sebastian being out-of-pocket (obviously) and also that doesn't result in burnin being so fed up that he gives up on Bitcoin hardware work.

I'd also quite like to have the two Bitburners I ordered hashing away - they're pretty :-)

Not sure I'll get any of that, but I can live in hope....


roy

[burnin]

Yes i am quite busy, but i nevertheless read customers emails daily, in more complex cases i don't reply immediately.

@tarmi
Investments in bitcoin are always high-risk and no one should invest more money then he is comfortable to lose.
I was already writing a mail to you, but it seemed better to put it out here for everyone.

So definitive answer you are looking for:
Bad news first:
I am by law not obligated to give any refunds for customer specific equipment like the bitburners as stated in my AGB (Terms of Service).

Nevertheless I value my customers, and i am nice guy.
I will (on request) refund any money that has not yet been spend on parts.
that will be about 50%.
I have to crunch some number to get the exact per board amount.

I do plan to reuse a lot of components for the bitfury design.
But some can not be reused and will be thrown away, like the PCBs for example.

For those that received a refund i could give a discount on a new bitfury order of about 70% of the not-returned funds.
But we all have to ask ourselves: is bitfury going to deliver?

Executive summary:
50% refund guaranteed.
70% money recovered when ordering a BitFury product.

This looks like it is going to get messy for everyone involved.  

Messy would be a bold understatement.

[kano]

However, there is also the BitFury issue of price.

It seems BitFury likes the ideals set out by Avalon and AsicMiner to price things above ever getting any return.
Nothing to do with cost to produce, but rather pricing things based on what they can get idiots to pay who don't understand the term 'difficulty' or pretend they don't care that they wont ever get their BTC back mining when they learn their mistake.
Those idiots I am referring to are of course people buying AsicMiner hardware ...

It really has become a pity the way Bitcoin has changed since the beginning of the year.

People here like Burnin, BKKCoins, Steamboat, Barntech and others have put together hardware for the community and clearly they aren't trying to rip people off and put ridiculous margins on their products ... unlike most of the main ASIC manufacturer companies.

All I can say is that I hope indeed I am wrong about BitFury and what I heard of their 1BTC price per chip - coz I am not wrong about the other ASIC producers ripping people off with their prices.

[JHenderson]

Nothing to do with cost to produce, but rather pricing things based on what they can get idiots to pay who don't understand the term 'difficulty' or pretend they don't care that they wont ever get their BTC back mining when they learn their mistake.
Those idiots I am referring to are of course people buying AsicMiner hardware ...

We seem to be in a massive asci pre-order bubble. Most folks are of the mindset they will make money. Even BFL seems to be betting the entire company on increasing USD/BTC exchange rates. When the losses are too high because of difficulty, refunds stop flowing, or a company like BFL folds, this house of cards is coming down.. Folks will leave as quickly as they came in..

[eraziel]

In case some of you have chips lying around with burnin waiting for other batches to be shipped to complete your orders, I am looking to buy 10 chips that are delivered to burnin already.

[BenTuras]

All I can say is that I hope indeed I am wrong about BitFury and what I heard of their 1BTC price per chip

AFAIK, the 1BTC per chip is for sample chips. Still a very high price to pay, sample chips should be priced at a level that will stimulate people like Burnin to develop a board and order reals of chips. That's where the real profit is for Bitfury.

[Grinny]

You can use every single PCB for all those people who haven't ordered a bitburner yet, (because they were clever enough to wait until their chips have arrived) but will do
as soon as their batch is shipping.

I do plan to reuse a lot of components for the bitfury design.
But some can not be reused and will be thrown away, like the PCBs for example.

[Min€r]

Yes i am quite busy, but i nevertheless read customers emails daily, in more complex cases i don't reply immediately.

@tarmi
Investments in bitcoin are always high-risk and no one should invest more money then he is comfortable to lose.
I was already writing a mail to you, but it seemed better to put it out here for everyone.

So definitive answer you are looking for:
Bad news first:
I am by law not obligated to give any refunds for customer specific equipment like the bitburners as stated in my AGB (Terms of Service).

Nevertheless I value my customers, and i am nice guy.
I will (on request) refund any money that has not yet been spend on parts.
that will be about 50%.
I have to crunch some number to get the exact per board amount.

I do plan to reuse a lot of components for the bitfury design.
But some can not be reused and will be thrown away, like the PCBs for example.

For those that received a refund i could give a discount on a new bitfury order of about 70% of the not-returned funds.
But we all have to ask ourselves: is bitfury going to deliver?

Executive summary:
50% refund guaranteed.
70% money recovered when ordering a BitFury product.

This looks like it is going to get messy for everyone involved.  

Messy would be a bold understatement.

I am sure this is against German & European Laws - you have earned and can`t finally unload your whole risk to your customers at all.

[lemonte]

Yes i am quite busy, but i nevertheless read customers emails daily, in more complex cases i don't reply immediately.

@tarmi
Investments in bitcoin are always high-risk and no one should invest more money then he is comfortable to lose.
I was already writing a mail to you, but it seemed better to put it out here for everyone.

So definitive answer you are looking for:
Bad news first:
I am by law not obligated to give any refunds for customer specific equipment like the bitburners as stated in my AGB (Terms of Service).

Nevertheless I value my customers, and i am nice guy.
I will (on request) refund any money that has not yet been spend on parts.
that will be about 50%.
I have to crunch some number to get the exact per board amount.

I do plan to reuse a lot of components for the bitfury design.
But some can not be reused and will be thrown away, like the PCBs for example.

For those that received a refund i could give a discount on a new bitfury order of about 70% of the not-returned funds.
But we all have to ask ourselves: is bitfury going to deliver?

Executive summary:
50% refund guaranteed.
70% money recovered when ordering a BitFury product.

This looks like it is going to get messy for everyone involved.  

Messy would be a bold understatement.

I am sure this is against German & European Laws - you have earned and can`t finally unload your whole risk to your customers at all.

True, but as a community we should be making sure assemblers like Burnin are looked after. Not only as a thank you for the amount of work he's done, but also from the point of view that if assemblers lose money there is no incentive to do it, meaning they won't, thus killing the DIY boards market completely.

[Min€r]

Yes i am quite busy, but i nevertheless read customers emails daily, in more complex cases i don't reply immediately.

@tarmi
Investments in bitcoin are always high-risk and no one should invest more money then he is comfortable to lose.
I was already writing a mail to you, but it seemed better to put it out here for everyone.

So definitive answer you are looking for:
Bad news first:
I am by law not obligated to give any refunds for customer specific equipment like the bitburners as stated in my AGB (Terms of Service).

Nevertheless I value my customers, and i am nice guy.
I will (on request) refund any money that has not yet been spend on parts.
that will be about 50%.
I have to crunch some number to get the exact per board amount.

I do plan to reuse a lot of components for the bitfury design.
But some can not be reused and will be thrown away, like the PCBs for example.

For those that received a refund i could give a discount on a new bitfury order of about 70% of the not-returned funds.
But we all have to ask ourselves: is bitfury going to deliver?

Executive summary:
50% refund guaranteed.
70% money recovered when ordering a BitFury product.

This looks like it is going to get messy for everyone involved.  

Messy would be a bold understatement.

I am sure this is against German & European Laws - you have earned and can`t finally unload your whole risk to your customers at all.

True, but as a community we should be making sure assemblers like Burnin are looked after. Not only as a thank you for the amount of work he's done, but also from the point of view that if assemblers lose money there is no incentive to do it, meaning they won't, thus killing the DIY boards market completely.

True but I think than he has to work out a good solution for both - him & clients. This "offer" is just a business for him not the community.
European business have to fullfill a lot of laws when selling to private clients. The TOS are illegal in Germany as I know (but I am now lawer) as consumers are protected hard - this was no B2B business at all.

[Boxman90]

True, but as a community we should be making sure assemblers like Burnin are looked after. Not only as a thank you for the amount of work he's done, but also from the point of view that if assemblers lose money there is no incentive to do it, meaning they won't, thus killing the DIY boards market completely.

I hate to break it to you, but him developing and building a board, is not charity. Customers paid, so it is just regular old business. There is absolutely no need to 'look after' the person you made a business deal with.

As much as I sympathise with the board builders, burnin took his own risk in developing a board for Avalon chips, and taking pre-orders dependant on pre-ordered hardware. It is not right that all this risk is fully offloaded to his customer base, and I'm quite sure what he offers is unlawful in the EU. You can't deliver nothing and still take a part of the money for yourself (be it in fiat or electrical components). I am quite (90%) sure that falls under the label entrepreneurial risk, at least here in the EU.

[iikun]

True, but as a community we should be making sure assemblers like Burnin are looked after. Not only as a thank you for the amount of work he's done, but also from the point of view that if assemblers lose money there is no incentive to do it, meaning they won't, thus killing the DIY boards market completely.

I hate to break it to you, but him developing and building a board, is not charity. Customers paid, so it is just regular old business. There is absolutely no need to 'look after' the person you made a business deal with.

As much as I sympathise with the board builders, burnin took his own risk in developing a board for Avalon chips, and taking pre-orders dependant on pre-ordered hardware. It is not right that all this risk is fully offloaded to his customer base, and I'm quite sure what he offers is unlawful in the EU. You can't deliver nothing and still take a part of the money for yourself (be it in fiat or electrical components). I am quite (90%) sure that falls under the label entrepreneurial risk, at least here in the EU.

to get technical he could in fact sue YOU as you implicitly agreed to send him Avalon chips so that he can complete your boards. By not sending the chips you have broken the agreement/contract & thus probably have little legal recourse.

Notwithstanding this point, I maintain that it is in everyone's best interest to work something out as amicably as possible & the level of venom on this thread is getting out of hand.
The first thing to do is approach Avalon officially (as Zefir says he has now done) and see what they are willing to do to make this right. Flaming group buy organizers and board makers only encourages infighting which will get us collectively nowhere. First things first.

[Bicknellski]

However, there is also the BitFury issue of price.

It seems BitFury likes the ideals set out by Avalon and AsicMiner to price things above ever getting any return.
Nothing to do with cost to produce, but rather pricing things based on what they can get idiots to pay who don't understand the term 'difficulty' or pretend they don't care that they wont ever get their BTC back mining when they learn their mistake.
Those idiots I am referring to are of course people buying AsicMiner hardware ...

It really has become a pity the way Bitcoin has changed since the beginning of the year.

People here like Burnin, BKKCoins, Steamboat, Barntech and others have put together hardware for the community and clearly they aren't trying to rip people off and put ridiculous margins on their products ... unlike most of the main ASIC manufacturer companies.

All I can say is that I hope indeed I am wrong about BitFury and what I heard of their 1BTC price per chip - coz I am not wrong about the other ASIC producers ripping people off with their prices.

+1 pretty much on the nose.

Unlikely to see real chip prices drop unless there is real off the shelf sales rather than limited quantities. We are all still being held by the short and curlies.

[Min€r]

True, but as a community we should be making sure assemblers like Burnin are looked after. Not only as a thank you for the amount of work he's done, but also from the point of view that if assemblers lose money there is no incentive to do it, meaning they won't, thus killing the DIY boards market completely.

I hate to break it to you, but him developing and building a board, is not charity. Customers paid, so it is just regular old business. There is absolutely no need to 'look after' the person you made a business deal with.

As much as I sympathise with the board builders, burnin took his own risk in developing a board for Avalon chips, and taking pre-orders dependant on pre-ordered hardware. It is not right that all this risk is fully offloaded to his customer base, and I'm quite sure what he offers is unlawful in the EU. You can't deliver nothing and still take a part of the money for yourself (be it in fiat or electrical components). I am quite (90%) sure that falls under the label entrepreneurial risk, at least here in the EU.

to get technical he could in fact sue YOU as you implicitly agreed to send him Avalon chips so that he can complete your boards. By not sending the chips you have broken the agreement/contract & thus probably have little legal recourse.

Notwithstanding this point, I maintain that it is in everyone's best interest to work something out as amicably as possible & the level of venom on this thread is getting out of hand.
The first thing to do is approach Avalon officially (as Zefir says he has now done) and see what they are willing to do to make this right. Flaming group buy organizers and board makers only encourages infighting which will get us collectively nowhere. First things first.

What bullshit - he isn`t paying me for that business & you have no idea from EU laws I think. This was NO B2B business at all - private clients are protected here, specially in Germany it`s double hard.
I am for sure Paypal too see that different like you from buyers view. They give buyers protection and if someone can steal some BTC via Paypal (getting refund after transaction) then this should be not that point of this deal at all.

[eraziel]

True, but as a community we should be making sure assemblers like Burnin are looked after. Not only as a thank you for the amount of work he's done, but also from the point of view that if assemblers lose money there is no incentive to do it, meaning they won't, thus killing the DIY boards market completely.

I hate to break it to you, but him developing and building a board, is not charity. Customers paid, so it is just regular old business. There is absolutely no need to 'look after' the person you made a business deal with.

As much as I sympathise with the board builders, burnin took his own risk in developing a board for Avalon chips, and taking pre-orders dependant on pre-ordered hardware. It is not right that all this risk is fully offloaded to his customer base, and I'm quite sure what he offers is unlawful in the EU. You can't deliver nothing and still take a part of the money for yourself (be it in fiat or electrical components). I am quite (90%) sure that falls under the label entrepreneurial risk, at least here in the EU.

What he can do for you right now is ship the PCBs assembled excluding the chips DUE TO YOUR INABILITY TO PROVIDE SAID CHIPS and keep all the money. Is that going to make you happier than getting 50% of your money back? I believe he wouldn't mind at all to do that.

How is it burnin's fault that you didn't keep your part of the deal?

[fiktionist]

True, but as a community we should be making sure assemblers like Burnin are looked after. Not only as a thank you for the amount of work he's done, but also from the point of view that if assemblers lose money there is no incentive to do it, meaning they won't, thus killing the DIY boards market completely.

I hate to break it to you, but him developing and building a board, is not charity. Customers paid, so it is just regular old business. There is absolutely no need to 'look after' the person you made a business deal with.

As much as I sympathise with the board builders, burnin took his own risk in developing a board for Avalon chips, and taking pre-orders dependant on pre-ordered hardware. It is not right that all this risk is fully offloaded to his customer base, and I'm quite sure what he offers is unlawful in the EU. You can't deliver nothing and still take a part of the money for yourself (be it in fiat or electrical components). I am quite (90%) sure that falls under the label entrepreneurial risk, at least here in the EU.

What he can do for you right now is ship the PCBs assembled excluding the chips DUE TO YOUR INABILITY TO PROVIDE SAID CHIPS and keep all the money. Is that going to make you happier than getting 50% of your money back? I believe he wouldn't mind at all to do that.

How is it burnin's fault that you didn't keep your part of the deal?

from a legal point of view, there was no deadline until which you have to provide the chips.

[Boxman90]

What he can do for you right now is ship the PCBs assembled excluding the chips DUE TO YOUR INABILITY TO PROVIDE SAID CHIPS and keep all the money. Is that going to make you happier than getting 50% of your money back? I believe he wouldn't mind at all to do that.

How is it burnin's fault that you didn't keep your part of the deal?

Hey I didn't pre-order any boards. I'm just saying there's some entrepeneural risk involved at burnins side as well.